Abortion?
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Let us also not forget GOD in all this;
GOD knows what every woman carries and who gets born. What about unfortunate"miscarriages"? Is that murder by someone or something?GOD also has made the "instinct" of the mother a very strong and deep love towards what she will give birth to? Under normal circumstances no mother will wish to part with her child!!!!
I sometimes pity men,they find all sorts of excuses for themselves and honor in what they do even when they murder grown ups,yet will
not trust mothers with what is "part of their flesh" ,their own child that they have suffered and risked their life for to bring to this world?
Do men know their responsibilities and women do not?"Fitrata Al Naas Allati Fatara Al Naass Alaiha" GOD has given men and women different responsibilities. Trust women folks. The great majority of women know what they are doing with what is inside them. They are not murderers!!!!
Let GOD be the judge of all His "Nass".Has he asked you to judge/ punish abortion in His message?
GOD bless.
Peace.I quote again this post of good logic, because it is the one that more properly reflects the Qur'an.
The distrust of women is the distrust of God. God made women and made them autnonomous and gave no right to anybody to dispose of their bodies.
God gave the trust of life to women. Usurping that trust is rebelion, clear rebelion to God. Of hou they use their trust women will respond to God, not to men or other women. God know what He does. Usruping God's authority is rebelion against Him. Got that?
Salaam
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Why should a raped woman not be allowed to abort the pregnancy? It is not like she gave permission to use her womb for the impregnation and why should she need to care for this child which came into life through evil? Perhaps you wish to torture and put the blame on her?
And many of you agree to ending the lives of domestic animals and a human fetus is not more evolved than one of those at that stage.
A child comes into the world because man and woman agreed to this and will care for the child wholeheartedly.
Be well
Qarael AmenuelAlso, it is less cruel to kill a fetus, in my opinion, than let him be born and leave it in the orphanage or in the garbage bin as some do.
But I am interested to know more about the issue of ruh and nafs. Is ruh in the human by default since it starts forming in the womb or acquired later?
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Well, a woman may not have the physical requisites to build heavier muscles, but that does not mean her body cannot be trained and she can be good at defense such as martial arts and she can wear close combat weaponry or handguns up to light machine guns, so it is unkind and inaccurate to say a woman is defenseless. And like I wrote, she can train the body and can acquire muscles even if not as explosive as a man's, but in combat the fight is not only about strength but also agility and a woman's slender body can be adapted to excel at that.
However untrained, an untrained man may take her down because he is naturally slightly more explosive in muscle strength and may weigh more. It happens also that many women do not fight back because they are frightened, but that is not exclusive to women but if a man is assaulted he may also cower in fear.
Please refrain from writing in a way as if women are helpless because they are not. Much of the helplessness is indoctrinated by our societies.
Trust me, if we drilled girls like we drilled men to be tough and told them it is not okay to be weak then she would be just as fierce as a man. But if we hand her dolls and are always so protective of her then this is who she will be. Women have a nature of caring, but in between that much behavior is learned.
Be well
Qarael AmenuelFirst of all, I don't think anyone should refrain from saying what they think. It's just thoughts than can be improved with good debates (something this forum lacks a lot from the reactions I see from the same people). This kind of progressivism can't even handle different opinions and it prefers to sanction people. A lot can be achieved with a good discussion.
That being said, my point wasn't that women are helpless.
Women mature a lot earlier than men. They gain this intuition of worrying and assessing danger a lot earlier and this among many things makes up for their lack of "muscles".
Yes, they can build muscles, but men are naturally made for labor, hence the muscles. Women are not necessarily. Yes you can train women to do MMA or even turn them into walking terminators so that they can kill entire armies. Sure. But that's not my point.There is, in my opinion, a sort of ying yang between men and women, what women don't have men have and vice versa. Men and women should work more in this direction rather than forcing men/women to have what they naturally didn't have for the sole purpose to make them look EQUAL. They are not. They are different. And they shouldn't be compared on a hierarchical perspective. Society does that. And people do that specially since one of the major topics of gender equality is the gender equality in the work place.
Now back to the initial subject. My point is that the first thing to clear out is that women's primary physical asset is their ability to give birth and motherhood. They should understand that and be more careful not to go through risky situations where they risk a lot more than a man would.
I'm saying this because a huge part of women seeking abortion were initially being irresponsible regarding their "motherhood" and ability to give birth. Statistically speaking " The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%). "
Such cases, like miscalculations and failed contraceptives, the quickest fix is an abortion but is getting pregnant should be that easy in the first place ? to get rid of its result that quickly, I guess it depends how you view pregnancy. If you think it is a mundane thing that happens regularly then abortion should also seem mundane. However I don't think so.
For cases such as rape, a lot of what happens to us we did not ask for, and it is beyond me to say why it happened, and I find the rape itself being the tragedy. But no tragedy means the end of life, anyone can go through a terrible event and life still goes on. I think it is preferable that no life is ended. We never know what that child could become.
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When is the nafs formed according to the Qur'an? 3 months? 3-6 months?
Peace, nafsin is there from the start...
396 creation yours from nafsin single furthermore made from it spouse its (cell division) and descends for you from l-anmi/the living things (likely embryonic stem cells) octet spouses (i.e. 4 x 2 pairs) created you in interior body mothers yours creation of from after creation in darknesses three such yours the god lord yours for him the control/sovereignty not deity except he so how thou turning
But I am interested to know more about the issue of ruh and nafs. Is ruh in the human by default since it starts forming in the womb or acquired later?
we are given little on l-ru cannot speculate...
https//s26.postimg.org/bh2swyd49/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch17v82-v93.jpg
https//s26.postimg.org/sfknl4wyx/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch32v6-v19.jpg
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For cases such as rape, a lot of what happens to us we did not ask for, and it is beyond me to say why it happened, and I find the rape itself being the tragedy. But no tragedy means the end of life, anyone can go through a terrible event and life still goes on. I think it is preferable that no life is ended. We never know what that child could become.
So, Cerberus, it is so nice a life and all that, fine, very sweet, but, please answer this
According to you tht the raped woman have a say on having a hild resulting from a rape or does she not? Because that is the question, not whether the creature would this or would that. Imagintion have we all, but the question is not that, the question is that any creature in order to be born has to spend some time inside somebody else's body, not in Cerberus house, not in some antiabortionist good hearted house, but in the body of another person. So again, according to you, does the woman have a say on that or not?
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Peace, nafsin is there from the start...
396 creation yours from nafsin single furthermore made from it spouse its (cell division) and descends for you from l-anmi/the living things (likely embryonic stem cells) octet spouses (i.e. 4 x 2 pairs) created you in interior body mothers yours creation of from after creation in darknesses three such yours the god lord yours for him the control/sovereignty not deity except he so how thou turning
we are given little on l-ru cannot speculate...
Thanks, so what about the clay (3871-72)? He made a man out of clay, and breathed ruh in it. And the nafs?
Ruh sounds as something universal, not like your ruh and mine, but something without identity, global and universal. And nafs more like an identity of a human. That is what comes to mind.
Peace
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Ruh is like "life energy", it means "breath" if speaking linguistically. For example, Ruh Al-Quds uses the word Ruh and here it means "spirit" usually. When your nafs (mind seed) leaves this world for example when you die, the Ruh simply vanishes from the body (you stop breathing and all neurological functions stop).
In some cases, the Ruh has been seen to return to certain people kind of "miraculously" and so their Nafs is back in the body.
Between you and me, "your life seed" = Nafs'ek. It is basically who you are and what makes you different from an animal which cannot be a Nafs but only has a Ruh. The Ruh Al-Quds inserted into you is what makes you advanced.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Ruh is like "life energy", it means "breath" if speaking linguistically. For example, Ruh Al-Quds uses the word Ruh and here it means "spirit" usually. When your nafs (mind seed) leaves this world for example when you die, the Ruh simply vanishes from the body (you stop breathing and all neurological functions stop).
In some cases, the Ruh has been seen to return to certain people kind of "miraculously" and so their Nafs is back in the body.
Between you and me, "your life seed" = Nafs'ek. It is basically who you are and what makes you different from an animal which cannot be a Nafs but only has a Ruh. The Ruh Al-Quds inserted into you is what makes you advanced.
Be well
Qarael AmenuelWhat about persistent vegetative state or other severe mental disorders? It does not sound logical to say their nafs is broken, but rather there is a brain injury of some sort. And the 'holy spirit' which allows one to become spiritual Being? It has nothing to do with ruh/nafs? Well in Islam you are but clay, the slave, I know, yet there are hints in Qur'an which tell otherwise, such as the act of angels prostating before Adam.
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When the body is broken, with for example a brain damage, this affects the Nafs because the animal which the Nafs is attached to is dysfunctional and therefore is not responding to input, basically.
One example is a person with psychosis, if you know what that is, this person may be conscious enough to experience what the body is doing in the delusion, but is basically unable to maneuver the body. Then this is a kind of scenario when the body is refusing input from the person, even if the person does not desire this.
We can say the Ruh of the Jinn is broken rather than the Nafs in the before mentioned case. Confused medieval religious inventors mistook this by saying the body is taken over by Jinns while the word Jinn means body and if you have a problem with Jinn it means the body is dysfunctional.
Generally however, the body mirrors the health of the mind and a sound individual has a low tendency to demonstrate dysfunctional behavior. A weak mind is more susceptible to a weakening Ruh, e.g. the person is growing elderly, but a strong person has a strong mind and therefore the mind is "driving" the existence of that whole person. That is because if the seed (Nafs) of a person has truly been conceived then a person is basically two parts; mind and body, and while the body has Ruh, the mind has Ruh Al-Quds and while the body will vanish the mind does not, it retains its condition.
Terminology (in real Arabic)
Nafs = "Seed", your life seed (may grow, desirable)
Naas = the mind/mental faculty (to be desired)
Jinn = the bodily (to be undesired)
Ruh = The bodily spirit/life energy basically (kind of autonomous in all beasts)
Ruh Al-Quds = the term for man's ability to stand over instinct (developed, often called holy spirit)
Satan = the body's instinctive drivingThe growing person does begin to employ a Ruh which is Al-Quds which overrides the lowly regular Ruh and therefore the Ruh's actions through the bodily mirrors the soundness of the mind, this person (Nafs = seed) is growing. Basically, when you move your body on this Earth it is done by the Ruh, and but when you process information abstractly in the mind it is not the Ruh but the mind and your person/seed is only deceptively seeming to be in merging with the bodily while they are two different "components". In fact you have your body, but you will not see the same one again. Either you have a new body repeatedly, or you come to your senses and understand your ultimate destiny is escaping the bodily, and that is if your person/seed has finished growing, and you "are attributed a totally complete being" (b'esm Allah al-rahman al-raheem). "Commendable is the being which learns to develop".
Earth is just a special breeding ground for a being expected to be so perfect the challenge is intense. Failed subjects are basically "collateral damage", insignificant and will be erased with souls and everything. As said, a person is just a seed and you grow what you need and when you have what you need you plant a different seed. Remember "God" has no (conventional) emotions and so that if only a few persons meet expectations and the rest fail is no concern to "God" and there is no emotional hardship to simply discard the seeds which never grew. Our existence is just a way for "God" to procreate "in its own way" (more like cloning) and it seems superiority is on the agenda. Out of billions of seeds, only a handful will be goodly enough to attain independent being and those are saved through "being picked out of the womb" (the Earth environment). Compare it to when sperms are rushing towards the egg in order to fertilize it and how many sperms are doing so. Many of them do not even go in the right direction.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Why should a raped woman not be allowed to abort the pregnancy? It is not like she gave permission to use her womb for the impregnation and why should she need to care for this child which came into life through evil? Perhaps you wish to torture and put the blame on her?
And many of you agree to ending the lives of domestic animals and a human fetus is not more evolved than one of those at that stage.
A child comes into the world because man and woman agreed to this and will care for the child wholeheartedly.
Be well
Qarael AmenuelSo the child that is to be born from a raped woman is EVIL?
The child only has relation to the father and abuser and the child she is bearing has no relation to herself?
Yeah that's wrong.
The child is a part of her period. She should look past the assault and think of the child's well-being.
There are many worst things than rape. There is life after rape.
God does not place any burden upon any soul which it cannot bear.
Furthermore, Allah is the One who creates life in the wombs so He is fully knowledgeable and responsible for the development of this life.
Would any believing woman who fears Her Lord attempt to end the life of her own children for a selfish reason as rape?
This has nothing to dow with feminism. Too much of anything will lead to going astray.
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https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9516.0
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There are many worst things than rape. There is life after rape.
God does not place any burden upon any soul which it cannot bear.
What if it was all actually a test for the one who raped? He got tempted and could not overcome his instincts due to being too dumb so that is why he raped a woman despite having a family and children (a story a heard from a woman with such experience). So he failed a test of temptation. God tests us by the means of others. See I also can throw ayats on the fly.
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What if it was all actually a test for the one who raped? He got tempted and could not overcome his instincts due to being too dumb so that is why he raped a woman despite having a family and children (a story a heard from a woman with such experience). So he failed a test of temptation. God tests us by the means of others. See I also can throw ayats on the fly.
I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make.
I don't understand whether you are mocking me or disrespecting me by stating
See I also can throw ayats on the fly.Therefore, for now, I will say my citations are relevant and in context.
However I am not even sure if you have cited any ayaats at all....Please clarify your intent if I am mistaken
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I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make.
I don't understand whether you are mocking me or disrespecting me by stating Therefore, for now, I will say my citations are relevant and in context.
However I am not even sure if you have cited any ayaats at all....Please clarify your intent if I am mistaken
I was pointing out that the problem of rape may not be as simple as most are trying it to look like i.e. there is only a victim and someone to blame, and the whole situation somehow circles around a victim only. Rape is not limited to victim only and her burden as there is another person involved or a group of people. Then you had quoted 2286 so as to make it look like it is some sort of a burden for a victim, which, well, is controversial since the actions of a victim also count. And I had quoted a part from 474 to point out that there is not only a victim in the act of rape, but also a transgressor, who might have had a certain test upon him, such as a trial of temptation, as is apparent from the personal story I was introduced to, and is probably relevant for most rape cases where a woman is a victim. Just like you, I took the verse out of context, but I did it deliberately so as to point out that you can't just apply a verse for a certain situation, at least in some cases.
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Dear women, abortion is permissible to you.
- That is just as condescending as saying it is not permissible to them. Due to the fact that it is not YOUR permission they need.
- The above brings us to, it is GOD's permission they would require and He has not granted such thing. God does not command wrong doing Faith, or do you say about Allah that which you do not know, brother?
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I was pointing out that the problem of rape may not be as simple as most are trying it to look like i.e. there is only a victim and someone to blame, and the whole situation somehow circles around a victim only. Rape is not limited to victim only and her burden as there is another person involved or a group of people. Then you had quoted 2286 so as to make it look like it is some sort of a burden for a victim, which, well, is controversial since the actions of a victim also count. And I had quoted a part from 474 to point out that there is not only a victim in the act of rape, but also a transgressor, who might have had a certain test upon him, such as a trial of temptation, as is apparent from the personal story I was introduced to, and is probably relevant for most rape cases where a woman is a victim. Just like you, I took the verse out of context, but I did it deliberately so as to point out that you can't just apply a verse for a certain situation, at least in some cases.
Wow wow
You think I was quoting 2286 alone. Not to be offensive, but that straight off tells me that your comprehension level and your ability to recall context and gist of Quran is not up to par. That phrase is used throughout the Quran, for multiple scenarios and also in a universal way. It is completely in context and relevant.
(22331 tukallafu is burdened
(22862) yukallifu burden
(615217) nukallifu We burden
(7426) nukallifu We burden
(23622) nukallifu We burden
(65715) yukallifu burdenFurthermore, we are continuously tested, once or even twice a year. Each of us has their own trial, but nothing is placed upon any of us which we do not have the capacity to bear, whether it is physical, emotional, financial etc..
Your citation was rather the only one completely out of context so please do not compare yourself to me in that regard. My intentions are honest and direct.
An example Yaqub thought he had lost his child for years before he was able to be reconciled with him. Yet he remained patient and persevered in righteousness and did not despair. Therefore a woman in such a situation(rape) should not despair of the Mercy of her Lord and raise the child and not commit a murderous, abomination.
We all have our own trials to endure, the easy way out is most, if not all of the time, the wrong decision.
God says do not kill yourselves, because He is kind to you. Do not kill your children fearing poverty. And much more...
The wicked among the posters try to push the limits of Allah and instead say,
"If God says to not kill the child, we shall then kill the child before its born"
What?!!! How foolish! How wicked! How ignorant!I disassociate myself from any of you that would command such immorality and shame
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So the child that is to be born from a raped woman is EVIL?
The child only has relation to the father and abuser and the child she is bearing has no relation to herself?
Yeah that's wrong.
The child is a part of her period. She should look past the assault and think of the child's well-being.
There are many worst things than rape. There is life after rape.
God does not place any burden upon any soul which it cannot bear.
Furthermore, Allah is the One who creates life in the wombs so He is fully knowledgeable and responsible for the development of this life.
Would any believing woman who fears Her Lord attempt to end the life of her own children for a selfish reason as rape?
This has nothing to dow with feminism. Too much of anything will lead to going astray.
Have you asked a woman who got raped how she felt about the experience?
Anyone would rather have been nearly beaten to death than being impregnated by a foreign person. The rape is often the beginning of years of suffering and in some cases it has ended in suicide.
If she gives birth to the child she will be forced to see the man who raped her for a long time.
And rape is defilement and a defilement must be cleansed. Perhaps the egg is hers, but the DNA string of the sperm which fertilizes the egg is unwanted, it is not okay and the person should not have to live with that.
Still, if she wishes to keep the child it is her choice, but no one is to be forced carrying a child conceived through evil. That is a continuation of the humiliation and suffering for her.
However, I am among those who find abortion in general to be wrong otherwise, and if abortion is going to be performed then there should be a good reason.
But one should always look at the root of the problem and if people did not want a child they should have avoided mating in the first place. The drive to mate is meant for procreation and the lust towards it is there to drive the species to do so. Using condoms and other protection is unnatural and there is meant to be a chance of conception with each intercourse and one has to live with that. Killing the child is against the natural way it happens and so it also effects the man and particularly the woman emotionally with terminating the pregnancy and it may affect the body. Not long ago there was no way of abortion either but it is a new invention, except if the woman performed dangerous jumping from tables or a person beating her belly and so on in order to kill the fetus in which case the subsequent extraction of the dead fetus may be a life-threatening procedure.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel