Gay and Muslim?
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Salaam,
Uh, no more ad hominem than yourself. I am only discussing and pointing out flaws. It is easy to hide behind the accusation of ad hominem. Of you put that accusation forth on that basis your claim of being opinionated is ad hominem.
Why do you keep posting that quote of yours? It proves you could not understand what I have written before. It is an argument I have never opposed.
Homosexuality is not against God's system as He rendered some creatures, including animals, homosexual. It is not disobeying His laws. And I echo again "Mocking the homosexual is proving that one is not a Muslim".
Being Muslim is more than only submission to God as I stated previously but submission, if you wish to use that awkward word, is only part of Islam. Living in harmony with creation by following God's design and purification of oneself is the all-in-one of Muslim. Abide by laws is a sterile definition belonging to sectarian Islam which you claim I have not separated from, one ad hominem from you.
But I must have patience I guess. Your English is probably why I get flawed logical responses and if you only knew how identical our posts are yet different wordings.
God bless you
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Salaam,
I am no more aggressive than you are. I feel pretty relaxed.
God bless you
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Salam
Except, I gave full reasons, quoting the mistakes, asking your reasons and supported all my arguments with ayats from the Qur'an, which is, critical thinking and logical reasoning. That is not aggressive, ad hominem or boasting with ultimate knowledge and accuracy, but it is the process of reasoning; ie. the identification of good reasoning and fallacy.
Is he then
who has with him
clear proof from his Lord
and a witness from Him recites it
and before it (is) the Book of Musa, a guide and a mercy? <- confirming
These believe in it <- Only these people believe in the Qur'an
and whoever of the (different) parties disbelieves in it
surely it is the truth from your Lord
but most men do not believe
(1117)Okay, it seems you have no ayats to support your argument and it is just your "wishful thinking" and "rambling". Good lucks!
Peace.
Conclusion
Muslim is the one who lives like a Muslim and it is not necessarily bound to Quran which is a guidebook. It is not a fixed label for specific people.
Allah clearly says
And whoever seeks a "dnan" (ا other than Islam <- "surrender and submission"
it will NEVER be accepted of him <- Do you have a choice if Allah say "NEVER"?
and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers
(385)The words Islam and Muslim come from the same three letter root word (s,l and m). Islam by definition means "surrender and submission" only to the one true creator. A muslim by definition means "one who surrenders and submits to the laws of God".
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Salaam,
There was one problem though, and that was that you completely misunderstood most of what I wrote and that I suspect was due to linguistic issues. You get aggressive now that you understand absolutely nothing of what I have written and claim that I argue against it too.
What kind of claim do you want support for? There is absolutely no wishful thinking or rambling going on here (ad hominem again from your part)
Seeks a system other than God's system, well who says I seek another system than His? (ad hominem) And Islam means more than only surrender and submission from a linguistic view, ask the Arabic experts here, ask Pazuzu or even Mazhar or any other knowledeable person and I suppose they will tell you it cannot simply be translated into Submission. My addition with 'harmony' can be included in the meaning of Islam. Some early attempts were to put Muslim into Peacemaker, but it is also not accurate.
What I wrote previously about the behavior and mindfulness of God is what goes under the definition Islam. Being mindful and purifying oneself is one of the "real pillars" of Islam.
- Belief in God
- Believe His system
- Purifying oneself through a righteous living.
Are you going to argue the backbone of Islam now? The above part IS Islam. The same reason you greet a fellow Muslim with Salaam wishing him harmony and good health (so many things with one single word). You are not telling him "Submit! (now!)" I have begun to say "fare thee well" in English which might be a possible substitute.
And all from the start from my part has been logical reasoning. And I have a critical approach whenever necessary. Where you see "aggression" from my part is simply because you mirror those emotions in yourself. I see a big ego and well I have to admit I might be a bit provoked to reply to put a besserwisser down by overwhelming shrewdness while it is in fact pretty meaningless. There is actually nothing I need to prove to you, but I want people to not be misled by others by intervening where necessary.
First of all you could make people believe that homosexuality is something rendering someone a non-Muslim which could be a gross offense not only to the people you talk about but also to God and His creations. You perhaps make the person called "Bookish" lose faith in Quran as he might believe that the Quran actually tells him that he is no Muslim because of his involuntary sexual alignment.
If it was not for Bookish and other people here I would not engage in this discussion. And for some reason you have responded with completely irrelevant information while doing so.
I have sensed that you invent rules in Islam which are not there while accusing others of doing both the same and other wrongdoings. Since when did you decide that Allah is the definite name of the One God or since when did you decide that homosexuals are not Muslims? Did God say that those who were born a certain way were to be called non-Muslims? Is being Muslim not something to be mirrored from someone's conduct?
Look at the personalities of the Messengers and Prophets, there you have your role-models and they followed God's ways. Were they obstinate people who were arrogant and argued pointless facts?
I am sure you have good things to add to our community, brother, but there are certain things you need to pay attention to. And why I have said earlier that you may presume too much without sound evidence.
I may have my ways of articulating myself, but I am not changing God's Message or adding teachings since I am only authorized to use that scripture as a foundation of my faith. And Quran is a set of guidelines which were sent down as a mercy and a blessing from the Lord and not a book intended for idolization. One can learn tremendous amounts of good things from it, but it does not replace one's brain and reasoning and ability to use common sense. It was only the Messenger Muhammad who that access to the Quran, but all the previous Messengers did not have the Quran and did they not manage to be good Muslims without it? It is no doubt that humans cannot keep from idolatry. If it is not the Messenger it turns to the scripture itself. I say be mindful of God and purify yourselves; for that you barely need a dusty old book from about 1400 years ago, even if it happens to contain much Wisdom.
What does it help being able to read and parrot phrases from Quran, even though in English, when one does not consider what was written on a larger scale?
Like I have written several times in the forum; "Man cannot live by words alone...", allegedly spoken by Jesus (Isa), the Messenger. It does not matter if it was not his actual words, they are one of the most perfect sayings I have heard/read. I am not sure what you think of me now but I see you as a brother not completely lost but in need of certain guidance. May the Lord guide you. Try to put less focus on proving people wrong and preaching the Message and instead acting out on your words in your life and perhaps listen to what people actually say.
There is really not much I have done in preaching here but rather defended someone you belittle by unrighteously calling them non-Muslim while receiving irrelevant responses to my posts which has led into this pointless discussion and ad hominem as you call it. I have responded appropriately and reasonably courteously to your accusations of being wrong despite that I said exactly the same thing as you do and I suspect linguistic problems may be the cause.
I am not sure what kind of ayat you are expecting to prove what case which you accuse me of wishful thinking and rambling?
If you accuse dear brother Bookish of being a non-Muslim on a non-existent basis then it is not wishful thinking and rambling but rather righteous defense.
God bless you
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Salaam,
"Ad hominem - attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument"
This is an ad hominem simply posting that pyramid.
God bless you
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Salaam,
You do not grasp the phrase "not necessarily bound to Quran" in the intended way. It does not mean I am wrong.
Do you want me to care to elaborate? I mean that one does not have to be bound to Quran to be "labelled" Muslim as one may never have encountered Quran before. The Quran is a bonus to mankind, a blessing and a mercy from the Lord. Everyone that believes the Message and lives by it is a Muslim.
God bless you
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Salam
You are rambling without any ayat from the Qur'an.
How hard for you to show one ayat to prove a Muslim can I'TIQAD NOT TO "surrenders and submits to the laws of God", and still be a Muslim?
Call anyone you like, just show me one ayat from the Qur'an.
Peace
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Salaam,
Have I said that it means something different? You testify yourself by posting that ayat like a parrot. I did not say you do not submit when you live in the way of God in Islam, only that the word Islam means much more than only Submission. And for that I said that you can ask most Arabic speakers the same and they will say that Muslims and Islam means more than Submission. I said that "abide by laws" is a pretty sterile definition but I can admit it works but it is not completely accurate. Live in harmony is a part meaning of the whole concept by living in the way of God following his system (deen). Harmony does not really say it has to be peaceful as in those hippies in the 60's but rather a certain balance.
I am puzzled to what the heck I am intended to prove as there is no counter-argument from my part but only filling in where it is lackluster.
And we are still diverted from the topic of this thread which you try to evade with this gibberish. I was talking about your accusation of Bookish as a non-Muslim because of his sexuality.
Anyways, I think it is time to cease fire. It is too much unrest here and I hope you learned something. Maybe tomorrow when you have rested and meditated upon what happened here. A last word as a fruit for thoughts; consider why you say salaam when you greet someone in Islam. It testifies that Islam, Muslim and even the root SLM has a more intricate meaning than only Submission and Obedience (to laws) for not do you tell them "Submit! Obey!" when you meet them entering their homes?
And one of the most important aspects of being Muslims is our good behavior and it seems we might both have failed. I sacrificed it a bit to teach you a lesson and any observers. It is good practice to put restraints on ourselves and be humble. The behavioral part of God's Islam is as important as submission to God and His system. I was taught a lesson from the story in Quran "Did I not tell you that you could not have any patience with me?"
God bless you
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Yes brother. I do. Yet curious what kind of relevance it has to our discussion.
You mean that how you can be a Muslim if you are not certain that God exist? I told you that you are a Muslim as long as you want to believe, i.e. show good intentions and work righteousness and try to discover the straight path. Most people are not straight away certain believers without doubt in their hearts. At least I was not, and I am sure lots of people were not too until a certain point. But I had determination and my logic and reason told me that I had to be right and monotheism must be the way and now I was rewarded with certainty and guidance eventually. However during the struggle I had some doubts if I was right or wrong but that feeling disappeared with time. No one (God willing) can come and try to convince me that God does not exist showing all sorts of "evidence" to try to make me stagger in my belief as I have profound (personal) signs of God's existence. That is a reward from the Lord. I think most all steadfast Muslims will eventually be rewarded with absolute certainty.
And it was not traditional Islam or Christianity that brought me to God but actually my observation of God's world and some reasonable thinking and philosophies. Was I not Muslim when I started to believe in God (although still semi-doubtful), His system and attempted to be a righteous person despite never have read the Quran? Quran was the absolute turning point and it helped giving that final push towards absolute certainty together with lots of reverence and glorification and thankfulness. But the key was not Quran but the general change in my life that turned me towards the "sirat al-mustaqeem". It is the behavior and good conduct that is the primary focal point in Islam except belief in God and His system.
As a parrot I say
- Mindful of God
- The System (minding the Last Day)
- LEADING A RIGHTEOUS LIFE (can I emphasize on this enough??)
Being good even a five-year-old under normal rearing conditions know what it means, do you not? Will you argue that these criteria do not reflect the fundamental Islamic belief?
I am using some customized words, but that is only to keep the flow of words to better adapted to the English discourse.
We have discussed completely pointless still important aspects of Islam under the inappropriate forum thread.
I still did not receive any backup for your claim that Bookish is not a Muslim, what is your argument? He does not mind God (certain or not does not matter)? He does not accept the fact he will be made responsible for his actions on the Last Day? He is not a good person?
Saying someone else is not a good person is a pretty grave accusation, do you not think so?
God bless you
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Salam
Then why are you talking about "human action or conducts", when I'm speaking about "I'tiqad" (creed)?
You can either obey or disobey Allah. You are a Muslim if you iq'tiqad to obey Allah, and you are non-Muslim if you iq'tiqad to disobey Allah.
Peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Peace brother. I felt attracted to them right from a very early age. Initially, it was just my brothers and father...they were the first males that I came across. I didn't know about kissing or making out, so I would just imagine them naked...and rub my private part against the floor. It would give me a certain pleasure, and I would reach a climax soon...but never understood what it meant...or why it came only after some amount of rubbing! I guess I was around 6 or 7...not sure.
I realized I was a homosexual when I began reading books. We used to have many books and dictionaries. Only then did I discover that you are supposed to get attracted to females, not males. Until then, I had no idea what I was doing and why.
I can definitely avoid homosexual acts...but attraction to men comes as naturally to me as attraction to women comes to you..it's an integral and unavoidable part of me.
You compared it with your urge to pull hair. But does pulling hair satisfy a BASIC human need? Sex is a BASIC human need..and so is the desire to be loved by another man/woman. I don't think the two are comparable.
I wasn't offended by your post at all. I'm glad to know that you are tolerant, understanding and polite.
Peace good logic, I do often think it's a test. But it puzzles me why the same rules don't apply to straight men/women. I'm no different from them, am I? I often wish God had mentioned something about LGBT in the Koran. I'm not even asking for the same privileges..but at least an acknowledgment...maybe something like this
And there are some men among you who desire men, and some women who desire women. Do not act upon your desires, for it is a sin. It is a test from God. Whosoever is patient and does good deeds, for them is a reward with God. Do not oppress such people, for they were made this way. God is Omniscient, Wise (Koran ????)
Ah, but AQ has EVERYTHING that a believer needs for the Deen. If it isn't contained, it isn't part of the Deen. Don't trouble yourself.
It would have made me more confident about it coming from an All-Knowing Creator. Most Muslim countries oppress LGBT people.
So called "Muslim" countries--oppression is against the Deen.
6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of GOD; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
4242 The error is upon those who oppress the people, and they aggress in the land without cause. For these will be a painful retribution.
I remember reading on this forum once that the women referred to here were prostitutes. So a command came that such women should be confined to their homes so that vice doesn't spread in the society. Are you sure 416 refers to gay men?
The women might be prostitutes, ALLAH knows best. However, the following verse may also be considered a context clue. I am not sure that 416 refers to gay men...but the fact that it refers to "the two men" might be a clue.
But then what is it referring to? I did not quite understand your post. Please clarify brother. The next verse makes it clear that it's okay to approach females but not males.
I was not a witness to the people of Lot, I only accept what AQ tells me--a lewdness not found before. Using my knowledge of history--which is backed with existing physical evidence--I know that homosexuality (if it is a lewdness) predates the people of Lot. I don't believe that there are any inconsistencies in AQ, thus I believe that the lewdness can't be homosexuality.
The next verse does not mean that it is okay to approach others out of lust! As an analogy, imagine if the verse stated "Not only do you kill the parents, but you kill the children too!" Some of the other translations make may the point more clear.
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/81/default.htm
I often bump into some disturbing claims...I don't really endorse them..but neither do I know how to counter them. And they often haunt me. For example,
Koran says homosexuality never existed before Lot. But homosexuality existed. So Koran is not divine.
This is not stated in the Qur'an...only some people's understanding.
Koran says Christians worship Gabriel and Mary. But they don't. They worship Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So Koran is not divine.
I find three places in AQ where Gabriel (Peace upon him and all like him) is mentioned
297 Say "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, then know that he has sent it down into your heart with the permission of GOD, authenticating what is with him, and a guide and good news for the believers."
298 "Whoever is an enemy to GOD and His angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael, then so GOD is the enemy to the disbelievers."
664 If the two of you repent to GOD, then your hearts have listened. But if you band together against him, then GOD is his ally, and so are Gabriel and the righteous believers. Also, the angels are his helpers.
The claim about Gabriel is false, as demonstrated. There are some Christians who do petition to Mary (Peace upon her and all Messengers and Prophets)--this is a form of worship, to do something towards a human that is for ALLAH alone. The "Hail Mary" or "Hail Holy Queen" prayers comes to mind. Not all Christians are Trinitarian--there are monotheist Christians as well. These are the ones, ISA, that are referred to in 262
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in GOD and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.
Koran says Jews worship Ezra as God's son. There is no historical record of this anywhere. So Koran is not divine.
History will lie...but which verses state this, please? )
Koran says gays choose men over women. We know that they don't choose. They simply act on the only desires they have. So Koran is not divine.
This is playing with translation...not intellectually honest. Better translations will make the point clearer.
Those that make claims should provide evidences for the claims. Incredible claims require incredible proofs!
I guess there will always be some questions that we can never answer. Nevertheless, my faith in God comes more from science than from the Koran. The fine-tuning of the Universe and the fact that we can decipher the Universe point to a deeper meaning.
For example, check these out
http//www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-goldilocks-enigma-by-paul-davies-419758.html
http//articles.latimes.com/1995-03-11/local/me-41323_1_paul-daviesNevertheless, among all the scriptures that I have studied, it is only the Koran that I find to be most consistent and coherent in its basic message. I can't say the same about the Bible - there's night and day difference between OT and NT. I find the NT a bit vague in its basic message - you can get Trinity out of it if you want, but you can also get Judeo-Islamic monotheism out of it if you want. In other words, if the whole Trinity thing was so essential to our salvation, you would expect that God would have explicitly mentioned it in the NT, which does not seem to be the case.
http//skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm
Please be sure to look at the explanations when provided.
Here is an overview of the mainstream Jewish perspective on Jesus (peace upon all Prophets).
http//www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
Here is a scholarly look at Christianity, using the Bible
The Grounds of Christianity Examined by Comparing The New Testament with the Old
by
George Bethune English, A.M.http//www.gutenberg.org/files/15968/15968-pdf.pdf
If you give the Bible to ten people who have no idea about Christianity, they will probably come up with ten different takeaways. I guess the same goes for scriptures of other faiths.
But give the Koran to them, and they will all probably agree about service to God alone, certainty of Hereafter, and the importance of good deeds.
Many people have preconceptions that hamper them from honestly considering the Qur'an; AQ is good for those that can accept it and put it into practice. For others, it is enough that they are monotheists and do good works.
God bless....
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Salaam,
As the concept of Muslimity is being good folks and one of the primary assessment points on the Last Day. You actions and behavior will show your true faith and it is not just empty words.
Obey is also a pretty sterile choice of words, is it not? It is more fluent to say live in the way of God or not live in the way of God. If you live in the way of God then you "obey" God so to say. Islam is about love and peace and not about a military discipline tyrant god who expects flawless humans. In that case we all were doomed long ago.
If you corrupt the lands and commit atrocities then you do not believe or obey God. It is actually not harder than to say it is good vs. evil. We have the right to choose, but the evil part does not come from God. No one in their rightful mind who believed that God exist would disobey God, they would know they would lose. Now it is not that simple and God is hidden/unseen until the test is over and they will regret it sincerely.
God bless you
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Then why are you talking about "human action or conducts", when I'm speaking about "I'tiqad" (creed)?
Peace all
Where does it say i'tiqad or creed involves human action?
Definition of Creed or I'tiqad
creed noun \krd
a statement of the basic beliefs of a religionan idea or set of beliefs that guides the actions of a person or group
1 a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
2 a set of fundamental beliefs; also a guiding principlecreed (krd)
n.- A formal statement of religious belief; a confession of faith.
- A system of belief, principles, or opinions laws banning discrimination on the basis of race or creed; an architectural creed that demanded simple lines.
Again, you don't read and only argues?
Salam handshake
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Salaam Abdul-Hadi,
I liked when you said
"For others, it is enough that they are monotheists and do good works." <--- This is good and a winner foundation.God bless you
Peace muslims,
I think we have to break out communication now. But the reason why I brought that up, and it was not to argue, but it was to say that behavior is part of belief. If you do not show your belief through actions it is relatively questionable whether you believe or not. For that I am pretty sure God backs me up too, if you only give it some thought. Without good behavior there is no creed as it is not complete.
God bless you
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but it was to say that behavior is part of belief.
Salam
I would make it clearly if it is related to behaviours.
Read again, the words in red.
The issue is how can someone be a Muslim if he is IQ'TIQAD NOT TO "surrenders and submits to the laws of God"? (refer here)
Do you read?
God bless you sun
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Salaam muslims,
You are almost driving me crazy here as I must repeat myself the 92859285295829th time and say why does that question have any relevance here? And even if it had I have already answered your question thoroughly at least once.
Your statement, even with sterile terminology, is not false and I made it clear that there was nothing to argue against it with.
Now why is that statement even remotely connected to the homosexuality of Bookish and other potential homosexuals if they are mindful of God and follow His creed or system or whatever word you would like to put in here. God created homosexuality so it ought to be part of His system and is not the opposite. And I said that mocking the homosexual or any maltreatment might even jeopardize one's own standing as a Muslim.
Good Night and sleep well whenever it is your turn. Now I am going to crash.
God bless you
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I felt attracted to them right from a very early age.. I would just imagine them naked...and rub my
peace,
do you had any shyness at that point? if you had shyness you would be doing 'it' in private. at that age doing in private is not normal or involuntary. if you do not have shyness you would have talked open to your brothers or father or mother.
the shyness is the indicator from your Lord do not do it. instead of asking yourself to get out of this situation, you started to look into human knowledge to reinforce your desire. there you got your desired acknowledgement as knowledge from the dictionaries, books, etc.
you concluded, that is your normal, given by God and started to find fault with God , and also wished for a verse against God (223). repent to God to bring u to normal which u have not done when u are young. and never to talk about this to anyone in private or public till you become normal.