She's Not Naked !!!

hawk99

I can see how God's words have been twisted and pulled on to suit chauvinism.... Disappointing.

Peace, Men and women are a team, one complimenting the other.

Men are to (help) provide and protect their families 4/34

PROVIDE

One can provide by supporting, encouraging, enabling, informing.

Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from
His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their
wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD's money that He has bestowed upon you.
You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste.
If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.

Men are to provide the dowry as an indicator of his ability to provide for a family, this is incumbent upon
men not women.

PROTECT

You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall
not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

Men possess superior strength over women thereby being more suited for war.

But all of men's strengths are nullified if you are not given birth and nuturing by the woman!

Sahih International 46/15 And We have enjoined upon man, to his parents, good treatment. His mother carried
him with hardship and gave birth to him with hardship, and his gestation and weaning is thirty months.
until, when he reaches maturity and reaches forty years, he says, "My Lord, enable me
to be grateful for Your favor which You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents and to work righteousness
of which You will approve and make righteous for me my offspring. Indeed, I have repented to You, and indeed,
I am of the Muslims."

We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him, and the load got heavier
and heavier. It takes two years (of intensive care) until weaning. You shall be appreciative of Me, and of your
parents. To Me is the ultimate destiny.

Anyone who has raised children knows what a difficult duty that can be.

Thank God for women because their role in our existence cannot be appreciated enough.

God bless

peace

Leyna

By the way, you repeatedly make a weird ending comment on your reply, such as "I am surprised you don't seem to be aware of this.".
I'm sure you can express your opinion without these kind of comments ...
or maybe it is a sign lack of self esteem or mental strength.

First of all, there was nothing insulting in my comment and nothing that warrants an attempt at a personal attack. Many of your statements in this thread are deeply patronizing, insulting, and offensive to women but I don't see any of us making derogatory remarks about your lack of character, strength, or self-esteem.

Secondly, I stand by what I wrote because I am very puzzled and, to be honest, shocked, that you don't see m to have any awareness of this issue.

Not only has the connection between body and mind, between exercise and mental health, sports and self-esteem been researched, talked, and written about extensively. It is also hard not to observe this phenomena in yourself or in others around you. Yet you criticize me for pointing out that connection and even deny that it exists.

Do you exercise regularly? Have you ever trained for a marathon, a sports competition, or set yourself any kind of goal in terms of physical exercise? If yes, didn't you observe that your self confidence and mood improved along with your stamina?

Pushing yourself beyond your comfort levels and enjoying better health, higher stress resistance, a nicer body etc. can and does help people develop self-confidence and mental strength. If you haven't experienced this in yourself, how about the world around you? Have you never observed how exercise can help people improve their life on many levels?

You are obviously an educated person with access to books, TV, magazines, newspapers, and the internet. I find it hard to believe that you've never come across this issue, never read about it, watched a documentary, never seen any research.
confused
Reading your posts here gives me the impression that you are quite young and don't have much life experience ? or that you don't reflect much on the things happening around you and don't listen to people with attention and empathy. I might be wrong but you also give the impression that you're not having many meaningful conversations with women and are lacking serious and deep relationships with them. Otherwise I can't explain why your descriptions of men and women have so very little to do with reality.

Women are not born or created by God with a tolerance for abuse, weakness, or more patience. Again, I wonder about your lack of real life experiences and research. Abuse is a vicious circle, people who get abused as children often turn into abusers themselves, or search out abusers as partners. Whether a person becomes an abuser or a victim of abuse is NOT a question of gender or genetics.

You are not born with more "mental strength" than half of the world's population. I don't believe for a second that you are more rational or mentally stronger than me because you have a different set of chromosomes.

or.. mental strength is the ability to overcome mental resistance (negativity.. I can't do this, I can't do that.. I'm afraid of this, I'm afraid of that... I can't.. I can't.. I can't.. I can't.. and so on), preferably from unusual experiences.

Negativity and lack of self confidence are not a matter of genetics or gender. The foundation for a healthy sense of self are being laid in childhood and youth. Whether a child grows into a person with a healthy self-confidence or a person full of doubt and fear depends hugely on his/her upbringing.

There are many people who were raised by neglecting, uncaring, toxic, or abusive families but are able to free themselves from negative thinking, fear, and lack of self-confidence. This sort of spiritual and psychological work takes a lot of determination, persistance, and courage ? in other words mental strength. Mental strength is NOT never experiencing crisis, doubt, or fear. Mental strength is overcoming those restrictions and growing into a better human being.

Leyna

But all of men's strengths are nullified if you are not given birth and nuturing by the woman!
?

We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him, and the load got heavier
and heavier. It takes two years (of intensive care) until weaning. You shall be appreciative of Me, and of your
parents. To Me is the ultimate destiny.

Anyone who has raised children knows what a difficult duty that can be.

Thank God for women because their role in our existence cannot be appreciated enough.

You talk about women but your posts sounds to me as if you're exclusively referring to mothers. Are women only to be appreciated if they are mothers? Aren't there many other things women should be appreciated for? Isn't there a multitude of different roles women can fulfill?

This reminds me of the often heard phrase that "Islam respects women as mothers, daughters, and wives". What about women who aren't/don't want to be mothers and wives? What about those whose parents died or who cut off ties with them? This sort of rhetoric gives the impression that women are only respected and valued if they are attached to a man and/or children.

hypno

muslims

Many of your statements in this thread are deeply patronizing, insulting, and offensive to women but I don't see any of us making derogatory remarks about your lack of character, strength, or self-esteem.

So it is becoming an insult simply because I don't agree with your opinions? amazing... laugh

Emotional strength have its pair or weaknesses, so as everything else in this world, including mental strength. There is no single thing in this world that have 100% strength or 100% weakness. It is a strength when dealing with their children, and it is a weakness when dealing with love or abuse. That's why we have Islam, to learn how to balance all these kind of things. The point is women are able to handle their emotions pretty well and this area is their greatest strength...

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your statements because it sounds very funny, and since it also clear that....

The fact that women have lots of "fear" (worriness) in themselves, is a clear proof that they lack of mental strength. Women worry about everything, including shoes, makeup and all tiny issues. They even worry what people think about them on those very small issues, which most men think is quite ridiculous. Most of them even need to communicate or talk to people for releasing their tensions. They need someone to hear and listen to their feelings. Further and in general, their accomplishment are not due to their self interest, but more because of they "fear" of something (humiliation, expectation from people they love, fear of not being accepted by society or co-workers, fear people will hate them, fear of no equal treatments etc.). Fear and worriness is dominant in their life.

These are only small things that women worried about in their daily life... There are other things that are totally weird to men..

Comparison with the definition of "mental strength"...

Mental strength generally is an attribute that allow a person to persevere through the most difficult circumstances and emerge without losing confidence.

or.. mental strength is the ability to overcome mental resistance (negativity.. I can't do this, I can't do that.. I'm afraid of this, I'm afraid of that... I can't.. I can't.. I can't.. I can't.. and so on), preferably from unusual experiences.

and proven through how you write your reply ... clear proof for lack of self esteem and confidence in expressing your opinion. Proof that "fear is dominant" and there is an urgency to prove self is better by offending others with irrelevant issues etc.

You need more exercise.

hawk99

Peace family,

The oppression of women, like all oppression, is the denial of their dreams. Sometimes its the fear
of losing control, or paternalism gone awry that has the effect of making our daughters unhappy, while
we men say that we "know" what is best, ignoring their pleas for equality which is what is best. We as believers
must prove that God is in control and get out of the way and remove the yoke from around the necks of our
women. Would we men like to be treated as we treat the women? Treating them like children who are not
capable of making their own decisions and mistakes like us?

These two ayats understood as one makes it clear that we men are not to control but to let the women
have control over themselves.

If a woman senses oppression or desertion from her husband, the couple shall try to reconcile
their differences, for conciliation is best for them. Selfishness is a human trait, and if you do good and
lead a righteous life, GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

There shall be no compulsion in religion the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone
who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD
is Hearer, Omniscient.

God bless

peace

Peace leyna,

I can't put all my ideas in every post, and maybe they are not worth reading, but I am totally for women's rights.
Anyway, if I'm for mothers rights why wouldn't I be for daughters rights?

Please read above

God bless

peace

Leyna

Abused by women or their wife? I guess you are taking 1-2 cases as your authority against the general conditions of life known by billions of people, and since thousand years ago ... which I find it is not a reasonable conclusion or not a serious argument, logically speaking.

Unfortunately, your assumptions are wrong. If you don't believe me I suggest you use google and educate yourself. Here are a few links to get you started

?
About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.

Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have far fewer refuges to flee to than women, says a study by the men's rights campaign group Parity.

The charity's analysis of statistics on domestic violence shows the number of men attacked by wives or girlfriends is much higher than thought. Its report, Domestic Violence The Male Perspective, states "Domestic violence is often seen as a female victim/male perpetrator problem, but the evidence demonstrates that this is a false picture."
?

http//www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

http//www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/male_victims_of_domestic_violence.html

http//www.mayoclinic.com/health/domestic-violence-against-men/MY00557

http//www.helpguide.org/mental/domestic-violence-men-abused-by-women.htm

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men

http//www.news.com.au/national/hidden-epidemic-of-women-beating-up-men/story-e6frfkvr-1225869842575

http//jezebel.com/5509717/domestic-violence-are-women-as-abusive-as-men

Yes, men and boys get abused and this is not an exception but a sad reality. Men get abused by other men, and they also get abused by women.

There are many abusive women out there. Maternal abuse is a big issue in this world, and sons as well as daughters are suffering from it. I know you don't like to hear about these facts because they don't support your fantasies about soft, weak, and emotional women who are always loving and caring towards their offspring and spouse, but whether you like it or not, this is reality.

Leyna

So it is becoming an insult simply because I don't agree with your opinions? amazing... laugh

Please re-read your own posts.

You wrote

? Women possess "less mental strength", that's why men are "inventors and pioneers" and we supposedly aren't.

? We will stay with an abuser "even if he beats us to death". Tolerating abuse is a sign femininity, not of low self-esteem or psychological problems. So according to you, God created women to be doormats.

? Women have many problems with "self confidence" and "self esteem", and that's why they wear makeup and need pretty clothings etc.

? I'm lacking self-esteem, mental strength and "confidence in expressing my opininon".

Those statements are not merely an expression of a different opinion, they are patronizing and insulting.

Women worry about everything, including shoes, makeup and all tiny issues. They even worry what people think about them on those very small issues, which most men think is quite ridiculous. Most of them even need to communicate or talk to people for releasing their tensions. They need someone to hear and listen to their feelings. Further and in general, their accomplishment are not due to their self interest, but more because of they "fear" of something (humiliation, expectation from people they love, fear of not being accepted by society or co-workers, fear people will hate them, fear of no equal treatments etc.). Fear and worriness is dominant in their life.

I don't worry about shoes or makeup and know few women who do. hmm

I established a successful career because I absolutely love what I'm doing and find fulfillment in it, not out of fear of humiliation ? what an absurd idea.

I know countless men who could be described exactly the way you're describing women above. What in the world makes you think that you are an expert on women and know us better than we know ourselves?

Habibullah

Peace to all
Why all this vindication from the male users here?
Why do you feel the need to apologize for something you have not done?
Why do the males here feel the need to tell the women in this forum that they are "all for womens rights"?

The subject was about bikinis on the beach. A memeber even posted pictures on some male and female bikinis, the female bikinis seemed to be okay to wear but no comments regarding the male bikini.

Do I too have the need to say that I am all for womens rights only because I feel bikinis is a big no no for believing women? Am I an oppressor because I give believers the advice to stay away from the beach where disbelievers occupy the beach?

Why would a pious man/woman g? to a place where almost all people are atleast half-naked? How do a believer feel when she/he knows there are disbelieving men/women having sexual fantasies about your respected person?

Society has brainwashed people that it's okay to walk around half-naked to a place full with other half-naked people, people have been brainwashed do things and to look in a certain way that is not very natural. This is what we should fight against.
Peace

muslims

Yes, men and boys get abused and this is not an exception but a sad reality. Men get abused by other men, and they also get abused by women.

The fallacy of cherry picking...

Habibullah

What is really a mistery for me is that I see people who don't have anything with the Quran but are not brainwashed by the society and think for themselves, lead beautiful lives and have more common sense than some of the people here. but it is probably as someone said earlier - God is not confined inside a book and He guides whom he wants.
I don't agree with everything she says but more common sense than some ppl around here...

http//m.youtube.com/watch?v=WJVHRJbgLz8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DWJVHRJbgLz8

Peace brother/sister.

This woman deserves all respect! She is a strong woman who stands against oppression.
Thank you for posting the link.
Peace

Leyna

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your statements because it sounds very funny, and since it also clear that....

The fact that women have lots of "fear" (worriness) in themselves, is a clear proof that they lack of mental strength.

Women worry about everything, including shoes, makeup and all tiny issues. They even worry what people think about them on those very small issues, which most men think is quite ridiculous.

Most of them even need to communicate or talk to people for releasing their tensions. They need someone to hear and listen to their feelings.

Further and in general, their accomplishment are not due to their self interest, but more because of they "fear" of something (humiliation, expectation from people they love, fear of not being accepted by society or co-workers, fear people will hate them, fear of no equal treatments etc.).

Fear and worriness is dominant in their life.

So instead of addressing my points you post a paragraph mocking and insulting women and claim you won't reply because women worry too much about each and everything? hypno What does one have to do with the other? It looks to me as if you're just looking for a way out because you're starting to realize that you don't really know how to present a credible counterargument.

muslims

Counterargument against the fallacy of cherry picking? confused

Maybe you are an exception to most women in this world.

Most women worry about everything. It is natural.

It is not an insult, it is facts... and that's why women are multitasking

This is a simple reading, or listening (audio book)..

https//sites.google.com/site/menmarswomenvenuspdf/

http//api.ning.com/files/X9oD7A8iJ3cP0RzZs3tsIore-GFef4kGTcEMGJBUiiBJgxTX38CcZk6V8KsblylptXz*PZe2u02zG6G8IMLp7YgzBBiUeCeo/file.pdf

Leyna

Why would a pious man/woman g? to a place where almost all people are atleast half-naked? How do a believer feel when she/he knows there are disbelieving men/women having sexual fantasies about your respected person?

Why would anyone go to a beach? Because it's wonderful to swim in the sea, feel and smell the air, be out in nature. I'm going to spend Christmas on my favourite beach here in Sinai and can't wait to go.

Regarding sexual fantasies ? I feel more violated walking the streets of Cairo fully dressed than being on a beach wearing a bikini.

good_logic

Peace All.

Nothing changes as far as those who follow traditions of their fathers are concerned. Men s rules have been created and endorsed by generation after generation to oppress and degrade women and the descent folks in most societies particularly the so called " Muslim ummah"

God wants us to enjoy the good things he has created.Why are we forbidding them?

What crime a person going swimming is committing? Who decides what clothes he/she will wear ?Surely the one who is going to swim?As long as he/she is wearing the "clothes of righteousness"inside him/her,he/she has a right to choose?

Look at the mockery the so called " muslim ummah" is doing with "women" in the name of false religion.False interpretations of the word of GOD!

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-OPhi05QP4

May the Lord have mercy on us and help us eradicate these pagan practices.

Peace to you.

huruf

Yes, indeed, enjoying the good things of creation is an excellent way to glorify God.

It is true that for some people it seems to be also a fantastic way of practising telepathy as Haibbulah gives to understand in his message

Why would a pious man/woman g? to a place where almost all people are atleast half-naked? How do a believer feel when she/he knows there are disbelieving men/women having sexual fantasies about your respected person?

I myself have never had the curiosity to know who is having what thoughts, least of all fantasies (and sexual on top) when I am in a public place. But that I should know that anybody in the crowd would be having a feast imagining whatever, to me it is completely out of reach. How could anybody know that? May be they are dreaming that they are eating milk with rice, or some delicacy.

Really, why do people think that the only thing in this world is sex. Are they obssessed or what? Retorial question, we do know they are obssessed, but they are also completely nuts. My, my, my!

Salaam

Man_of_Faith

Peace Leyna,

Do not you worry about him. He will have a difficult time at a later occasion.

God bless you

hawk99

Peace to all

The subject was about bikinis on the beach. A memeber even posted pictures on some male and female bikinis, the female bikinis seemed to be okay to wear but no comments regarding the male bikini.

Peace Habibullah,

My post regarding men in bikinis was an attempt to start a dialogue about modesty but no one would bite

Peace to all
Why would a pious man/woman g? to a place where almost all people are atleast half-naked? How do a believer feel when she/he knows there are disbelieving men/women having sexual fantasies about your respected person?

You are taking a leap to assume that the half naked person is pious, I did not say that the half naked person
was modest or pious, I only stated that they have the right to go to the beach.

Society has brainwashed people that it's okay to walk around half-naked to a place full with other half-naked people, people have been brainwashed do things and to look in a certain way that is not very natural. This is what we should fight against.
Peace

I would say that "brainwashing" would not be accurate because there is no coercive methods of indoctrination
used, and that freedom is better than oppression...those who want to go...go, those who do not want to go, don't go.

Do I too have the need to say that I am all for womens rights only because I feel bikinis is a big no no for believing women? Am I an oppressor because I give believers the advice to stay away from the beach where disbelievers occupy the beach?

I think you have a valid point about giving advice, my point is that women have the right to accept or reject my
opinion as well as yours.

God bless

peace

muslims

He will have a difficult time at a later occasion.

Speak for yourself.. and I think you urgently need more exercise and stamina. laugh

Bismillah

Salam aleikum,

Let me make an introduction and after I'll speak about bikini, beach and dress code...

As I said in my first post I'm spaniard of pure european origin. My ancestors were crusaders knights at the battle of Navas de Tolosa (Al-Uqab battle in arabic) and I made my shahada two and a half years ago because I believe that there is only One God and that Muhammad is God's Messenger... therefore I believe that Quran is the God's Word. Regarding hadiths I believe that are human created tales. Anyway, if some people want to live according hadith I find it ok while they don't try to impose to everybody.

The battle of Navas de Tolosa / Al-Uqab was planned as a big crusade against sunni Al-Muwahiddun in Iberian Peninsula. The crusaders expedition met at the city of Toledo, in central Iberian Peninsula (Spain didn't exist yet) and were composed by iberian (spanish & portuguese) knights and french ones. When they avanced to the south they took some little villages inhabited by muslims, then the muslims qaids surrended and went to seek help from Al-Muwahiddun Jalifa Muhammad an Nansir, but the Jalifa ordered their execution accusing them of cowardice. At the same time the french crusaders started to kill the muslim population of the villages but the king Alfonso VIII of Castile ordered them to stop the slaughtering and don't kill the surrended people. The french threatened the king saying that if they were not allowed to kill the population of the villages, they would come back France. The king simply said them "just go" and 30.000 french knights came back France. The iberians crusaders finally invaded the south and defeated the sunnis Al-Muwahiddun.

My ancestors were on the vanguard and they came from Basque Country, that is a very matriarcal society with witch/amazon women from ancient times. One of the reasons because they left their homeland and went south was that their women were no good. The leader of the militar expedition was Diego L?pez de Haro and his wife was cheating him. When he ordered his son to attack and resist until victory or death he said him "People will can say to you that you are the son of a bitch but not the son of a coward" and they fight till victory, the most decisive victory of Middle Ages in Iberian Peninsula. Thay conquered Al-Andalus and because this my family stablished here in the south, that today is called Andalusia.

Cultural and ethnic background is important is some aspects of life and have influence over the way in that you see the relationship between sexes.

When I've read some statements of this thread I simply got perplexed.

The purpose of a dress code is protect the women of "bad men"? o
The men are abusive and the women not? rotfl
And all the rethoric about rapes, etc. yuck

Fake chivalry trying to afirm men domination and on the other side female victimism trying to afirm women domination... all is about feel "free", dominate another people, feel also powerful and take Shaytan's path. But remember that nor man neither woman is powerful, only Allah (SWT) is powerful.

All the crap about women have to be full covered for their protection from "bad men", etc. is a lie, as the whole garbage called chivalry is a very big lie.

The women have to dress honest for their protection of themselves (their ego, arrogance, narcissism and exhibitionism) and the stability of the whole society. The same for men. Freedom for humans have limitations and Quran or even common sense clarify it. Allah gave a Torah for hebrews (not only for jewish but for 12 tribes), gave us all Jesus as a Injil, a Living Word and gave us all the Quran through Rasul ul Lah Muhammad. But Allah gave us all a fitra, a common sense, the capacity for distinguish between good and bad, beutiful and ugly, armony and chaos.

Abusive and narcissistic attitudes are always in the path of selfishness and chaos, no matter men or women.

Regarding the bikini, she is not nude but she is neither and angel/malaika. Therefore, in a beach sometimes everybody look at the beautiful bodies (women also look at men) and like to be looked... for the women depending on the man that looks at her... if he's an old ugly man he's a pig but if he's a young handsome man he's cool. ;D

It doesn't means that you go to the beach in order to look the bodies but when you are hours at the beach, you look more or less depending on the day, the bodies, etc. Human beings are not angels and we have lust. If a woman say to me that she never liked to look men or to be look by them, then I will say that she prefers women and that's all folks. World is plenty of secret lesbians, some of them married with men and another strong men's haters.

Bikini is haram as same as short swimsuit for men is haram. Good dress is a dress that you can wear everywhere... imagine people at workplace in swimsuit.

Holy Quran is clear regarding modesty on dress but if somebody have a strong desire for do something that he/she knows is haram but cannot avoid to do it, it's better to say Astagfirullah and do the haram but don't think that he/she is acting halal... even worse if start to say to another people things like "nothing is haram, you are free, haram depending on everyone, etc.

For example, no married people sometimes have sexual intecourse, that is haram. Well, if you cannot avoid it... Astagfirullah but noway "oh, it's ok and haram depending on everyone conscience". This is a bad path, a path similar to some nihilistic mystic sects that want mystic with no law. That's a very big mistake, a good and pleasant walk where you fell powerful but with a bad end.

And Leyna, you have beautiful feets. jedi

good_logic

Peace Bismilah.

Thank you for your introduction.

The point some of us are trying to make

Can you go swimming in the sea ? What are the appropriate cloth/es you use?

Of course they are bad and ugly intentions at the beach! But there are also some decent people who want to go for sea air and a swim in the sea?

Does Qoran say swimming in the sea is "Haram"?

You talk about common sense in your post, let us use common sense then!

Wear what is comfortable for you to swim in,of course you consider modesty, but you are swimming, not shopping or at a social gathering.

Peace to you.