She's Not Naked !!!

huruf

Remember that women are to let their head cover fall over their breast area, to conceal the size of it, you know, not the tip of the breasts or its surrounding, but obviously the size. Also they must not walk in a way that their steps shake their body so that a private part moves (you see the seriousness/graveness of wearing a bikini now?). This all means a woman should not ever go out in a bikini, but also must PROPERLY dress. Not just loose clothing, but perfect dress code according to God's teachings.

Women must conceal their hair too. Seeing how otherwise they have nothing to let fall over their breast area. Their garments are only for the husband.

Believing women are to be warned about this dress code. The thread maker and huruf seem to not know that, and instead believe the Quran is in accordance to their idea of a woman not being naked, but in a bikini, out in public is okay.

People should fulfill their own duties.

You are saying "the Qur'an says", but it is you who say that, not the Qur'an. It is the people who want the Qur'an to say what it does nto say who harp on an on on the Qur'an says this or that, because the Qur'an does nto day it. Because if it did, there would be no question. So it is your words. The qur'an does nto say anything about any volume, and the body of a woman, or a man is nto something to to be ashamed of nor a source of evil. That is the usual misogynistic christianity which seems to have seeped so much into the islamic mind set. Woman is not equal to sin. And a woman's body is not more an invitation to sin than a man's. And if something seems to invite us to sin, then WE, ourselves, must avoid it. We cannot make other people slaves to our whims just because we do not want to take responsibility for our own deeds.

Salaam

ag

You are saying "the Qur'an says", but it is you who say that, not the Qur'an. It is the people who want the Qur'an to say what it does nto say who harp on an on on the Qur'an says this or that, because the Qur'an does nto day it. Because if it did, there would be no question. So it is your words. The qur'an does nto say anything about any volume, and the body of a woman, or a man is nto something to to be ashamed of nor a source of evil. That is the usual misogynistic christianity which seems to have seeped so much into the islamic mind set. Woman is not equal to sin. And a woman's body is not more an invitation to sin than a man's. And if something seems to invite us to sin, then WE, ourselves, must avoid it. We cannot make other people slaves to our whims just because we do not want to take responsibility for our own deeds.

Salaam

You are nothing close to a good example for Islam. Nice one though. Lol.

Obviously you are trying to get away with saying that the Quran doesn't speak about and also teach how to dress. As if people will find your made up facts to be more fitting for the usual lifestyle, and therefore conclude you are right. Are you serious? This is just about your ego and justifying your baseless Islamic way of life?

No one cares what you say or believe, just like you blindly state that my post isn't in accordance to the Quran. No one must correct you. People recite the Quran every morning and night. They follow all commands and they clearly know what the Book says. Not to mention that you don't seem like you would want to change your "oh so" moral ways. >

You seem rather arrogant and ignorant, nothing like Islam should be. Try not to act so smart and right about universal matters, when you are simply justifying your ignorance. Change your life and you wont need to.

P.S. The way the teachings are described in my first post on this thread is exactly how the Quran teaches, not the exact words but the same meaning. Anyone who recites the Quran, outside of curious reasons, knows this.

huruf

Salam,

Salam
huruf,

I bring to your mind to reflect on the following verse and say your comments and see if you want to retract most contents of your post.

3332 O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft and sweet even in speech to men, lest he in whose heart is evil desire should desire, so speak with appropriate speech.

There is something to discuss in this, if you wish.

I really do not see much connection between one thing and the other. To start with, 33.32 refers exclusively to the Prophet's wives, in fact it says clearly "you are not like any other women". That is, the wives of a particular person who is known widely as a prophet, and of that particular prophet within their own context. The context is not that of bathing in a public bathing place, and that is exclusvely what we are talking here about. So really no, I do not see a connection.

And I understand the injunction as a means of protection for the prophet's wives, not a s a means of protection for the evil thinkers, except indirectly. Yes, surely, a prophet's wife or widow, in time, may be a great asset for covetous or ambitious males, that would make them almost as successors of the Prophet and therfore of his power. Yes, better cut out outright that kind of speculations and doings.

I wouln't say though that a beach is a place where anybody can have the greatest hopes for scalating socially through anybody's wives. Jetset's social events are more prone to that or the entourage of people with power withing whatever limited setting, like spiritual groups or sects or whatever. A beach? To a beach people go mostly anonymously for health, rest and healthy fun. Also, in inhibited settings, males, like a pest, may go there to oggle and they may be very abundant, like in many laces in Egypt today. Too bad for them and for the whole of the population because they make hell for themselves and all the people, unable to have a decent rest and solace.

Women in those opressing, restriting settings certainy suffer from the bad minds and manners of consented males, who behave as if they owned the whole earth and above all, of the women that walk on it. That is a social mental deasease, which thanks to religious manifpulation they think that it is not their disease, but their own good right.

I would NEVER, NEVER, recommend to women who are not in that way restricted to start restricting themselves so that they can promote the worst in males arrongance and possessiveness. Rights, if not used, are lost. They would start against bikinis now, and it would end with women out of every public place, and the whole of society transformed in a garbage dump. No thanks.

Actually beaches, in non restrictive settings are quite pleasant and healthy, where everybody is courteous and minds his or her own business. Please do not let the idea grow that filthiness must exist whatever the cost where there is no such thing, and that if filth does not reign supreme it must be installed whatever the cost. Please, please, don't.

Salaam

huruf

You are nothing close to a good example for Islam. Nice one though. Lol.

Obviously you are trying to get away with saying that the Quran doesn't speak about and also teach how to dress. As if people will find your made up facts to be more fitting for the usual lifestyle, and therefore conclude you are right. Are you serious? This is just about your ego and justifying your baseless Islamic way of life?

No one cares what you say or believe, just like you blindly state that my post isn't in accordance to the Quran. No one must correct you. People recite the Quran every morning and night. They follow all commands and they clearly know what the Book says. Not to mention that you don't seem like you would want to change your "oh so" moral ways. >

You seem rather arrogant and ignorant, nothing like Islam should be. Try not to act so smart and right about universal matters, when you are simply justifying your ignorance. Change your life and you wont need to.

P.S. The way the teachings are described in my first post on this thread is exactly how the Quran teaches, not the exact words but the same meaning. Anyone who recites the Quran, outside of curious reasons, knows this.

Salaam.

I have my ego, you have your ego. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Salaam

ag

Salaam.

I have my ego, you have your ego. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Salaam

Thank God everyone is different. Cause, a wife according to your ideas? No thanks.

Peace

huruf

I also say to you, no thanks, I am well served with what God has granted me. Very, very well served and I am very, very thankful to Him and to the person He has awarded me. May God bless him forever, and bless all the men who are faithful to Him and not arrogant nor boastful but, as good people and good men, are always willing to protect and help their society, rather than command others around. May God bless them always and make present to them the depth of the gratitude of the people who love them from their hearts.

Salaam

ag

I also say to you, no thanks, I am well served with what God has granted me. Very, very well served and I am very, very thankful to Him and to the person He has awarded me. May God bless him forever, and bless all the men who are faithful to Him and not arrogant nor boastful but, as good people and good men, are always willing to protect and help their society, rather than command others around. May God bless them always and make present to them the depth of the gratitude of the people who love them from their hearts.

Salaam

Your sincerity towards unrighteousness is not going to make it acceptable, why are you praying on a forum anyway, are you in a state of ablution? Who do you think is better according to God's opinion/judgment? Is it someone that takes the safe approach and regards the teachings of the Quran to mean what they should mean. Or someone who nullifies them, as if they were mentioned for no reason.

It is mentioned that men should teach the believing women to throw the excess of their head coverings over their breast area. How can one go from this to thinking it's completely acceptable for women to display body in a bikini to the public?

Peace

Jafar

Women in those opressing, restriting settings certainy suffer from the bad minds and manners of consented males, who behave as if they owned the whole earth and above all, of the women that walk on it. That is a social mental deasease, which thanks to religious manifpulation they think that it is not their disease, but their own good right.

Correct,
Nomadic and hunter-gatherer human society views 'the female of our enemy / not within our group or tribe' as among 'the hunted game', they're free to take, if you can 'hunt' them. This view is consistent to be found across all nomadic / hunter-gatherer society, from dessert Arabia, Europe, up to Mongolian steppes.

If you read the Hadith and Tanakh, women are among the 'spoil of war' to be taken..
The Romans, although they claimed to be the 'most civilized society' during their time, also take women from their conquered neighboring 'barbaric' tribes as spoil of war.

Heck, even as late as 1945, The Russian troop raped 2 Million Germanic women as they put a siege to Berlin!
So does the Japanese towards Chinese, Korean, Thais, Vietnamese and Malay women!

This is actually the 'default' view of our "highly civilized ancestor".

And I think the reason the Quran put a recommendation to women for not 'attracting any unwanted attention' (through their clothing, jewelry) is for the sole reason of THEIR OWN SAFETY and SECURITY. In other words, do not wear or do anything to attract attention from those "highly civilized gentlemen" around you.

In similar manner as I will recommend any women to not wearing any jewelry when they're going into Detroit !
Because there's plenty of "highly civilized gentlemen" to be found there..

If the place is safe enough, feel free to dress in any manner that you want..
Dress code has nothing to do with morality.

Salam / Peace

ag

Correct,
Nomadic and hunter-gatherer human society views 'the female of our enemy / not within our group or tribe' as among 'the hunted game', they're free to take, if you can 'hunt' them. This view is consistent to be found across all nomadic / hunter-gatherer society, from dessert Arabia, Europe, up to Mongolian steppes.

That's disgusting.

If you read the Hadith and Tanakh, women are among the 'spoil of war' to be taken..
The Romans, although they claimed to be the 'most civilized society' during their time, also take women from their conquered neighboring 'barbaric' tribes as spoil of war.

Another very displeasing belief by majority of the muslims. Women were actually helped, brought to the city of the Messenger probably to some refugee camp where they would get helped and could then marry a man if they agreed to it. But not have sex, they weren't simply given out to men, but men could ask for one if that man was reliable according to the Prophets judgment and if the woman wanted him as well. As you may know from the Quran, God tells Muhammed to let the captive women into a mans possession if he is good, meaning to take care of her, get married to her.

Therefore there is no such thing as women spoils of war, or attaining a slave woman as an option given to men in this world.
It is only in the case of a real war where women who had husbands end up alone and have no means to support themselves. At that point the leader, takes them to his city and controls the captives until they find a way. It has nothing to do with men taking them and having sex with them. Wow!

Heck, even as late as 1945, The Russian troop raped 2 Million Germanic women as they put a siege to Berlin!
So does the Japanese towards Chinese, Korean, Thais, Vietnamese and Malay women!

This is actually the 'default' view of our "highly civilized ancestor".

Disgusting

And I think the reason the Quran put a recommendation to women for not 'attracting any unwanted attention' (through their clothing, jewelry) is for the sole reason of THEIR OWN SAFETY and SECURITY. In other words, do not wear or do anything to attract attention from those "highly civilized gentlemen" around you.

That isn't so good, as God clearly states that men get desirous of women, and he clearly states that they should display their garments only to their husband, and that's garments, not their sexual appeal.

In similar manner as I will recommend any women to not wearing any jewelry when they're going into Detroit !
Because there's plenty of "highly civilized gentlemen" to be found there..

Of course, women should avoid dangerous situations at all times.

If the place is safe enough, feel free to dress in any manner that you want..
Dress code has nothing to do with morality.

And you do this instead of teaching women to dress modestly? Lower their gaze? Cover their breasts using the excess scarf of her head which implies is to be covered as well. To not display their garments to people other than the ppl mentioned in the Quran? And to not stomp hard so as to shake the private parts of the body?

Instead of teaching them what you should, you tell them to feel free to dress any way they want?

Dress code is part of morality, and besides it has everything to do with what God teaches his creatures.

Peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

This verse suits the context of that article about women who swim commit adultery and eating bananas is immoral.

God bless you

Habibullah

Peace to all,

Conclusion from the thread

The book (2431) teaches "and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments" but as it does not speak about the beach then some (women) assume it is alright to go around in bikinis, hiding only parts of the breast and small parts from gluteus maximus?

Wisdom?

Peace

huruf

Peace to all,

Conclusion from the thread

The book (2431) teaches "and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments" but as it does not speak about the beach then some (women) assume it is alright to go around in bikinis, hiding only parts of the breast and small parts from gluteus maximus?

Wisdom?

Peace

Why do you say maximus? In fact what you are describing looks like minimus as bikinis go. I wonder what kind of bikinis you have been lokking at and how much you have measured of what they covered. I am impressed, such precision. But that assertion shows bias on your part to portray bikini as disreputable as possible, never mind acuracy.

And in the thread not only women, as you purport, have spoken as bikini being right in the beach. In fact it has been only one woman and severla men doing so. More bias.

What I find weird is that nobody seems to find anything wrong with oggling, while many seem ready to give lessons to women over and over and over ad nauseam as to modesty, more modesty, more modesty and tons of it, but oggling... who cares? Great prospects for muslims, really.

Salaam

Bender

What I find weird is that nobody seems to find anything wrong with oggling, while many seem ready to give lessons to women over and over and over ad nauseam as to modesty, more modesty, more modesty and tons of it, but oggling... who cares? Great prospects for muslims, really.

Salaam

Salaam,

who cares about that.
Yes it is in The Quran it is in fact the first command but we men like to focus on the duties of others yes
2430

salaam,
Bender

Jafar

Therefore there is no such thing as women spoils of war, or attaining a slave woman as an option given to men in this world.

It happened for many centuries, it's a historical fact, that show how 'civilized' the big ape is.

It is only in the case of a real war where women who had husbands end up alone and have no means to support themselves. At that point the leader, takes them to his city and controls the captives until they find a way. It has nothing to do with men taking them and having sex with them. Wow!DisgustingThat isn't so good, as God clearly states that men get desirous of women, and he clearly states that they should display their garments only to their husband, and that's garments, not their sexual appeal.Of course, women should avoid dangerous situations at all times.

Like I said it's related to 'security' and not 'morality'.
Women or men should avoid danger at all time.

I've given you the Detroit example.
Detroit is full of criminals. Robbers, Rapist, Drug Dealers you name it.
What's the practical recommendation for common decent people living in Detroit?
Try to reduce the risk of being robbed, raped and murdered.
Because fighting the criminals is not within the reach of 'common people'.

That's what exactly Quran do with such recommendation TO MUHAMMAD.

Muhammad et, al, was living in the middle of barbaric nomadic society in 7th century Arabia / Middle East.
Robber, Rapist, Murderer you name it they got it.

What's the practical recommendation for their safety?
Try to reduce the risk of being robbed, raped and murdered.
Dress modestly do not attract attention do not wear jewelry.

Instead of teaching them what you should, you tell them to feel free to dress any way they want?
Dress code is part of morality, and besides it has everything to do with what God teaches his creatures.

It seems that your God is a fashionista..
We definitely have different view / definition of what God is.

If "Dress code is part of morality" as you said, definitely ALL BABIES ARE IMMORAL.
Given they were born into this world NAKED!

Besides, your many much great ancestor dressed like this
http//trekpapua.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/yali-he.jpg

So you're saying the above Papuan women are IMMORAL??? Because THE WAY THEY DRESSED FOR MANY CENTURIES??

Note It's totally safe for them to dress as such in Papua, they're not getting raped, robbed, molested or anything.

Salam / Peace

Habibullah

Why do you say maximus?

http//tianlong-acupuncture.com/images/gluteus-mm.gif

What I find weird is that nobody seems to find anything wrong with oggling, while many seem ready to give lessons to women over and over and over ad nauseam as to modesty, more modesty, more modesty and tons of it, but oggling... who cares? Great prospects for muslims, really.

Salaam

Peace sister,

was expecting this question.

I condemn oggling, but when you go to the beach it's probably not just "believers" there, therefore, one can expect oggling. You can not tell a disbeliever to lower his gaze only because the book you believe in says so. He would surely not care about your book, nor your judgement/deen as he have his own judgement/deen.

I as a man avoid going to the beach, not only because Im weak to the beauty of women, but also because I too get to much attention when Im there. Im not better than you sister nor are you better than me. For me, you as a woman and me as a man are equals, but that is not the subject spoken of in this thread.

When a believer talk to another believer about a subject, i expect that it is about learning and / or teaching and not about winning arguments. I hope we agree on this one.

Peace

unknownuser

Salaam

I see many threads about this, but for many centuries muslims still confused about this.

What kind of religion is this?? rotfl

drfazl

I really do not see much connection between one thing and the other. To start with, 33.32 refers exclusively to the Prophet's wives, in fact it says clearly "you are not like any other women". That is, the wives of a particular person who is known widely as a prophet, and of that particular prophet within their own context.

Peace
huruf and all.

Those two phrases in Red needs to be clarified for now because I have some basic questions which I feel you could answer.

3332 O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft and sweet even in speech to men, lest he in whose heart is evil desire should desire, so speak with appropriate speech.

You are not like anyone among women

The context is God says to the women folks about the wives of the Prophets that

They are the wives of the Prophets
They are like the mothers of your whole female society
They have to be a model unto the other women in their society
They cannot speak to the other women what they do not do themselves
The other women were wandering
"O wives of the prophets As mothers that you are you cannot allow them to be that way"
They speak sweetly and softly to the strangers
"O wives of the prophets As mothers that your are you shall not allow them behave that way any more
And recommend them to speak to the strangers from behind a veil
And counsel them that they stayed indoors."

Under such context, we see the mothers' behaviour i.e. the Prophets wives' living as the live behavioural model for the entire female society of the world. All the prophets' wives from the time of Adam that the prophets started coming to us preached this while practising and making a behavioural code which God made it as that shall be the inherent moral quality of every mother till the end of the world.

You can see every female, the mother in any society cutting across the religion, caste and creed admonishing their daughters with this when they come of age "O my child, you are now not a little girl; you are not like any other girls now; you shall have to be very careful about the strangers; do not be smiling at the strangers while speaking to them with sweetness in your voice; come home early before dusk; do not be hanging around as you did before late in the evenings; stay indoors where it is possible for you."

The context of 3332 is this 336 The Prophet is more worthy for the believers than themselves, and his wives are in the position of their mothers.

Any further to this is welcome from one and all.

Peace

Maha

Well, she is not going to work or the shops or for a walk inthe neighbourhood in bikini, is she? According to the ulema and their rules as spread out by the supermuslims of today, a man could well walk into a masjid barebreasted. Wearing a bikini in the beach is not shocking, doing that in a masjid would be shocking, for me at least. So, it is a matter of standpoint. Myself I find the bikini the most comfortable attire for simming and bathing, although, when out of the water I put something wlse on for fear of the sun.

As somebody has already said, if that king of thing would land us in hell, I am sure the truthful Qur'an would have said it very clearly, and insisted on it. As it is, the Qur'an does not insist on things like that nor says anything of the kind. Would we be left with the opinions of many times emotionnally and mentally unbalanced people for things like that? There are many things on which the Qur'an insists, insists, insists and on which we rarely spend so many words and insistence ourselves, like badmouthing others.

Also, what the usual thing is in your environment is important, for your sake and comfort more than for anything else.

Salaam

bravo bravo bravo

huruf

Peace
huruf and all.

Those two phrases in Red needs to be clarified for now because I have some basic questions which I feel you could answer.

3332 O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft and sweet even in speech to men, lest he in whose heart is evil desire should desire, so speak with appropriate speech.

You are not like anyone among women

The context is God says to the women folks about the wives of the Prophets that

They are the wives of the Prophets
They are like the mothers of your whole female society
They have to be a model unto the other women in their society
They cannot speak to the other women what they do not do themselves
The other women were wandering
"O wives of the prophets As mothers that you are you cannot allow them to be that way"
They speak sweetly and softly to the strangers
"O wives of the prophets As mothers that your are you shall not allow them behave that way any more
And recommend them to speak to the strangers from behind a veil
And counsel them that they stayed indoors."

Under such context, we see the mothers' behaviour i.e. the Prophets wives' living as the live behavioural model for the entire female society of the world. All the prophets' wives from the time of Adam that the prophets started coming to us preached this while practising and making a behavioural code which God made it as that shall be the inherent moral quality of every mother till the end of the world.

You can see every female, the mother in any society cutting across the religion, caste and creed admonishing their daughters with this when they come of age "O my child, you are now not a little girl; you are not like any other girls now; you shall have to be very careful about the strangers; do not be smiling at the strangers while speaking to them with sweetness in your voice; come home early before dusk; do not be hanging around as you did before late in the evenings; stay indoors where it is possible for you."

The context of 3332 is this 336 The Prophet is more worthy for the believers than themselves, and his wives are in the position of their mothers.

Any further to this is welcome from one and all.

Peace

The prophet is a model for all humanity, he is the model, not his wives. Nowehre are we told to follow the wives of the Prophet. In fact we know from the Qur'an that the fact that somebody is a wife or husband of somebody else is no gurantee of anything. And we, males or females, definitely are not told to follow the Prophet's wives.

His wives are mothers of the believers, of both sexes. You could understand from the text that they are only mothers of the males, since the form used can be masculine plural or mixed plural, but clearly not feminine plural, so no, they are not just mothers of the women believers, if anything, it owuld be just of the men, and that is the way that at least some shia understand that aya, that they are only mothers of the male believers because they cannot marry any of them and that that is the reason they are called mothers of the believers. That however is not my understanding, they are mothers of all the believers males and females. Clearly not just mothers of the believing females.

So, if the motherhood has any implication of modelling, they are a model for all believers in whatever in following the prohet, in undertaking sacrifice , in being patient in hardship, and self restrain, like not because they have won over the enemy now and there is prosperity they should fall into the self exhibition and self-indulgence that they could afford as powerful people. That is clearly stated when it is said textually that the are not like any woman. Other owmen could not afford that, are not in a position of power and social standing as they are.

And, please, aya 33.35 is quite eloquent. There is no priviledged position for one sex over the other as to being things narrower for one than the other.

Anybody can extract whatever he or she wants from a given text if at any given time that understanding helps him or her along, but I really, for the best of my intent, what I see is that as model hor humanity, the prophet is given and as mothers, his wives. He is not given as a father ?why? and on the other hand a plurality of women, very diverse, are given as mothers to males and females, when, as it is a fact and the saying goes "mother there is only one". There is food for thought. Whatever example as mothers they give is for both, unless it is understood that mothers can neglect their sons and not their daughters. Nowhere in the Qur'an a different morality is established for males and females, as 33.35, already mentioned, makes it day-clear and also clear what 33.32 cannot mean.

I insist that to me the insistence on the modesty of women, neglecting the duties of males to their own self-respect and to the respect the owe others, particularly women, is a infested moral wound that will end up destroying muslims societies. It is already doing so. All societies destroy themselves starting with their lack of respect for womanhood. It is impossible to disrespect womanhood and then pretend that anything else is respected. If you do not respect the mother you do not respect what comes from her.

In crime, it is clear that men overwhelmly outrun women, they make up almost all murderers, of the killers, the rapers, the robbers, etc. etc. And they kill women. But, to note, they kill far more men than women. Which goes to show that by the sunna of God, women are not trampled on with impunity. Men, when they destroy and try to make of women a possession of them, destroy themselves.

Again, women are not the problem. So all the pages that many self-called muslims use up in the millions to put women int their place, and axect from them, and impose on them, which reveal their obssession with power, are in fact shackles they put on themselves and in the process they destroy humanity, women and themselves.

Are the mothers of the believers supposed to be an encouragement for that? Or why, again are we given a variety of mothers and no fathers in the Qur'an? Can you come up with an answer for that? That is a far more interesting question than splitting hairs on women's fashion.

I can imagine that if they saw what is going on, our misunderstood quranic mothers would be horrified.

On the other hand any decent contemporaneous woman in many countries would be offended, that feel their mothers are insulted with this kind of accussations of indecency because of the bikini. Mothers and aunts and all kinds of women wear bikini in the beach, when they are with their family or friends or alone and they are not inviting to anything, they are just having a healthy enjoyable time with their children and other members of the family or with friends, or alone. But the watchdogs of male property of the universe cannot leave them alone.

24.12 Why did not the believers - men and women - when ye heard of the affair,- put the best construction on it in their own minds and say, "This (charge) is an obvious lie"?

I am sad to say so, but really I think that Muslim minds are so much obscured, so much constricted in a narrow passage between walls where they do not see open air that they but on themselves oll the time. The Fatiha, instedad of opening existence to them, seems to be a key that has ben thrown away after locking the door with them inside, with no air or company but their own narrow selves.

And instead of reacting and changing, they press for more obscurity and more lockedness, as if that would give them finally the longed for absolute power over women, over the universe. Shaytanic.

Really I do not trust that kind of muslims, I trust God, and trust that whatever help will come will be from Him, not from the parrots of male power obssession.

All that said, I do appreciate indeed your input, drfazl, and believe you are
a spiritually gifted and inspiring person, but that is a reason for me to try to be very frank in what I say. Thank you.

Salaam

drfazl

The prophet is a model for all humanity, he is the model, not his wives. Nowehre are we told to follow the wives of the Prophet. In fact we know from the Qur'an that the fact that somebody is a wife or husband of somebody else is no gurantee of anything. And we, males or females, definitely are not told to follow the Prophet's wives.

Salaam

Peace
huruf,

O believers! Pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto the Apostle and unto those from among you who have been entrusted with authority; and if you are at variance over any matter, refer it unto God and the Apostle, if you believe in God and the Last Day. This is the best , and best in the end.

If you see the above verse, the general rule is that the mothers are entrusted with the authority to bring up their children and the girls in turn shall keep it up as their bounded duty to follow Allah and rear their offsprings accordingly.

336 The Prophet is more worthy for the believers than themselves, and his wives are in the position of their mother.

And as you have rightly said the wives of the prophets are the mothers to both the sexes in mixed plurality; but when the daughters come of age it is the mothers who are closer to counsel them in matters relating to male, female relationship than the fathers. In this context, verse 3332 deals directly with the wives of the prophets i.e the mothers of all the world, all time to come, to counsel the female members of their respective societies.

peace