Verse 2:54 Perhaps Needs Proper Translation
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Few weeks ago, some members saw my debate with Mr Israfeel about hadiths. He tried to prove that Quran preaches suicide by using verse 254.
And when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf . So repent to your Creator and kill yourselves. That is best for you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.Although he said "bring it on" as a challenge to me that he never runs away when refuted by members here he did run away once like an excorist I forced on him the anti bukhari, inc verses from Quran. However, when he used verse 255 on me I told him I would discuss it with the members because verse 255 doesn't flow correctly with it.
My research shows that even Yusuf Ali and another person said that "kill/slay yourselves" in verse 255 was problematic for them to translate. They even said that their translation was based on book of exodus and agreement among scholars.
Things to ponder upon
A prophet will never ever tell people to commit suicide. This isn't Allah's way at all.Notice reply of the Jews in verse 255 And when you said, "O Moses, we will never believe you until we see Allah outright"; so the thunderbolt took you while you were looking on.
They are saying "we will never believe" instead of "what kind of God asks for suicide?" As for "thunderbolt took you", notice that its not speaking about killing the jews. Took you is not as same as killing, taking souls, etc.Here is the next line 256Then We revived you after your death that perhaps you would be grateful.
Okay, I do see mawtikum (death) in the verse, but also baathnakum which can have several meanings.Can anyone translate the verses properly please?
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http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.54a.gif
And recall when Ms said to his people
"O My Nation! You have indeed wronged yourselves having willfully adopted the sculpted calf.
Thereby, you remorsefully turn to your Creator; thereat curb and shame your selves.
This remorse and shaming your selves will be better for you in the sight of your Sustainer Lord".
You acted on his advice , thereupon, He the Exalted turned towards you in forgiveness.
It is a fact that He is the Only Who is repeatedly forgiving-pays attention, the fountain of Mercy.
Shame negative emotion that combines feelings of dishonor, unworthiness, and embarrassment; a state of disgrace or dishonor
Grammatical and syntactic analysis and translation 254
The object and purpose of the act "Qatl" is to distance the object of verb away from others, the society, people. Ill reputing a person character assasination is the first use of "Qatl" since the object is to distance away the people from his influence. The end is murder where one is physically and bodily removed away from the people.
When the object of the verb is the self of the subject it will obviously denote shame your self. The apodosis clause confirms it.
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http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.54a.gif
And recall when Ms said to his people
"O My Nation! You have indeed wronged yourselves having willfully adopted the sculpted calf.
Thereby, you remorsefully turn to your Creator; thereat curb and shame your selves.
This remorse and shaming your selves will be better for you in the sight of your Sustainer Lord".
You acted on his advice , thereupon, He the Exalted turned towards you in forgiveness.
It is a fact that He is the Only Who is repeatedly forgiving-pays attention, the fountain of Mercy.
Shame negative emotion that combines feelings of dishonor, unworthiness, and embarrassment; a state of disgrace or dishonor
Grammatical and syntactic analysis and translation 254
The object and purpose of the act "Qatl" is to distance the object of verb away from others, the society, people. Ill reputing a person character assasination is the first use of "Qatl" since the object is to distance away the people from his influence. The end is murder where one is physically and bodily removed away from the people.
When the object of the verb is the self of the subject it will obviously denote shame your self. The apodosis clause confirms it.
In this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606918.0
Mazhar said in message 3It is absolutely erroneous understanding. It means natural death. A man gets alientated from the company of living either by natural death or Qatl/Zibh killed, slaughtered, murdered by others.
And if you people are murdered in the way of Allah the Exalted or you died a natural death
Betrer to read the whole thread.
Salaam
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The word 'qatal' use to symbolize kill/fight. This is why it seems to say one should kill oneself in this passage. But it could instead rather be used to mark to "mend yourselves" in the passage.
Action/purpose=Express Result/aim=Character Mode/magnitude=Distinct (as such).
Based on that it can mean certain English words, but not kill. Some person has suggested scold which may be right. It seems as to express what is right instead of wrong. Correct someone.
It is one of the grand falsehoods in Quran which gives it a cruel nature while it actually speaks of something else.
Have faith
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In this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606918.0
Mazhar said in message 3Betrer to read the whole thread.
Salaam
Please find little time to study how meanings are assigned and derived in a text. Collocates determine the meanings though the basic perception of the root remains dominantly present.
Verb in 3157 is passive and its noun is "you people". In 254 the verb is imperative form-1 and its object are the persons who themselves are the subject of verb.
If intention was to direct them to commit sudicide act of deliberately killing oneself, use of Form-V could convey such meanings; NOT form-1.
Arabic has different word for suicide. -
Peace,
So according to translators the way to repentance (2/54 is) to kill yourself? nope
http//www.documentingreality.com/forum/uploadedimages/1/26312.thumb?d=1226505557
http//www.documentingreality.com/forum/uploadedimages/1/148975.thumb?d=1270511038
And if we kill ourselves who will take care of the children, the elderly, the sick? nope
What about those who refuse to kill themselves, are they sinners/weak faith for
disobeying God? nopeGod bless
peace
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Peace All.
You are of course familiar with this translation of {254} from RK?
Recall that Moses said to his people, "O my people, you have wronged your souls by worshiping the calf. You must repent to your Creator. You shall kill your egos. This is better for you in the sight of your Creator." He did redeem you. He is the Redeemer, Most Merciful.
*254 It is the ego that led to Satan's fall. It is the ego that caused our exile to this world, and it is the ego that is keeping most of us from redemption to God's Kingdom.
As for {256}, I will come back to this later
First,let us see what sleep is from Qoran, and the comparison of death and sleep?660
He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done.Death is exactly like sleeping; complete with dreams (660, 4046).
Coming back to {256}, being stuck unconscious is sleeping . Revived from it, is waking up.
To me that simply says " after you were unconscious , we woke you up from that state"?My understanding of that verse.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Rashad Khalifa translates nafs as ego while it usually relates to your soul. It says nafs'kum in the passage. If "God" created a nafs then why should you kill it?
Your soul is what you have while your physical body is made of temporary flesh. So will you kill it?
It seems that Rashad only attempted to make sense of the passage with the usual tainted interpretation by rephrasing nafs with a different word to get past the lame nature of kill your souls. This is because 'qatal' does not mean kill/fight, but you seem unable to look beyond that.
Have faith
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Peace Man Of Faith.
We have been there before?
"Nafs" has many meanings, like "Salat", "Zakat"... and so forth.
You have made a statement- Qatal- does not mean kill/fight? Enlighten us with your better translation of {256}, so we can stand corrected?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
You have made a statement- Qatal- does not mean kill/fight? Enlighten us with your better translation of {256}, so we can stand corrected?
Peace good logic -- use context and perhaps not "slay" the self too much over meanings.
1730 surely lord your extends the provision to whom wills and decrees surely he be in servants his aware of seer of
1731 and not thou slay ye of offspring yours fear pauperism (don't be stingy) we are we provide them and for you if slay them be fault of immense of
254 and when said Musa/Moses to folk his O folk that surely you have wronged you souls yours/yourselves in taking you the calf so turn/repent ye of to creator yours so slays ye of souls yours/yourselves (i.e. idolatry/desire for extravagance) such yours best for you near creator yours so turned on you surely he he the frequent the merciful
255 and when speaking you O Musa/Moses never we believe to you until we see the god openly so seized you the thunderbolt and are you watching
256 furthermore we raised you from after death yours (refers to 254) that may you thanks giving
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peace,
2.54 - Musa said to his people, ?You have done grave injustice to you by taking to the calf; henceforth seek forgiveness from your Creator and ready yourself for the sacrifice@. Only this shall bring you good omen from your Creator. Allah has forgiven you; verily, He accepts repentance and He is Merciful.
comment @. The people of Musa were of the fear that slaying their calf, their deity, would cast bad omen upon them; and Musa said to them, ?Then get ready for your sacrifice by sacrificing the calf.(2.67 ? 71)? And they did sacrifice the calf half-heartedly, after much argument over it with Musa. Thus Allah forgave the descendants of Israel and continued favouring them, mercifully. Nothing evil befell them on account of their calf-sacrifice.
2.55 - And when you said, ?O Musa, until we see Allah before our very eyes, we shall not believe you@,? a severe thunder-rupture ripped you while you were seeing.
comment @. Musa could not answer them but to turn to Allah Himself and said, ?O my God, I must see you with my eyes; show You to me (7.143).? Then when Allah made it clear to Him it is impossible, Musa sought forgiveness from Allah and make him a Muslim, who shall believe in the Unseen. But when he came to his people from his retreat with Allah, and saw them again worshiping the calf, this time making the calf into an idol that which they sacrificed earlier. And an argument ensued between Musa and the idolaters; until finally the thunder-rent made the idolaters drop dead.
quran translation and commentary by Dr Fazlur Rahman
peace
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... and ready yourself for the sacrifice@.
quran translation and commentary by Dr Fazlur RahmanPeace, which word exactly is "ready" and likewise "yourself for the sacrifice"?
95 ... so slays ye of the idolaters anyplace find ye them
254 ... so slays ye of yourselves -
Peace,
That single aayat itself explains a lot.
254
And when Musa said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf. So repent to your Creator so kill yourselves. That is best for you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.
This clearly shows that
You have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf.
So, repent to your Creator.
So, kill yourself.Repent to your Creator DOES NOT MEAN killing yourself. To correct, why there are to things, killing oneself will not correct him. When repent to your Creator is already said, then what is the use of saying kill yourself? These are just steps , like repent and humble yourself(?). The usage of this letter FA can also be seen in 1926.
1926
So eat and drink and be contented. So if you see from among men anyone, so say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to mankind.' "
This aayat shows that the usage of FA is show steps in sequence. So, in 254 if Allah wants them to suicide what is the purpose of asking them to repent to the Creator first? This surely does not refers to killing oneself, inshaAllah.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Peace,
That single aayat itself explains a lot.
254
This sentence very strongly confirms your point. Fa signifies that they did what they were asked to do whereby Allah the Exalted did this. This can't be said to those who have already killed theirselves.
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"Peace", reel, the translation is wrong. Check out these;
Edip-Layth-Martha (Quran A Reformist Translation)
254
Moses said to his people, "O my people, you have wronged yourselves by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and face yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Compassionate."18Muhammad Asad
254
and when Moses said unto his people "O my people! Verily, you have sinned against yourselves by worshipping the calf; turn, then. in repentance to your Maker and mortify yourselves;39 this will be the best for you in your Maker's sight". And thereupon He accepted your repentance for, behold, He alone is the Acceptor of Repentance, the Dispenser of Grace.The length at which enemies of the Quran go to distort the Quran is alarming. There was no penalty specified for those who worshipped the calf . "Kill yourselves" cant be followed by "repent" if it is to be taking literally as in "death".
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This aayat shows that the usage of FA is show steps in sequence. So, in 254 if Allah wants them to suicide what is the purpose of asking them to repent to the Creator first? This surely does not refers to killing oneself, inshaAllah.
Agreed
The context is left with the meaning to annihilate, tame, remove, learn to control, change something in or about
yourselves.Peace,
So according to translators the way to repentance (2/54) is to kill yourself? nope
Few weeks ago, some members saw my debate with Mr Israfeel about hadiths. He tried to prove that Quran
preaches suicide by using verse 254.Peace reel,
Those sectarians are ignorant folk who refuse to obey Allah and cling to sources other than Allah.
How on earth could they possibly miss this
6/159 Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, are not with them in anything.
Their affair is only to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do.God bless you
peace
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Not sure why there is a lot of mental acrobatics to twist this verse into something it is not...
The command is clear Bani Israel were told to kill themselves for their action. They refused, so God killed them and resurrected them to prove His point...Simple and clear.
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Not sure why there is a lot of mental acrobatics to twist this verse into something it is not...
The command is clear Bani Israel were told to kill themselves for their action. They refused, so God killed them and resurrected them to prove His point...Simple and clear.
Peace brother,
Few questions for you, please answer
1- So you mean all mushriks should kill themselves or this command was just for Bani Isreal?
2- If it is not for all mushriks, then what could be the possible reason to mentioning this in alQuraan for us?
3- And why not Allah killing today's mushriks for their actions? They didn't know to kill themselves?
4- And if they knew and then refuse then Allah will kill them just to prove His point?May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Not sure why there is a lot of mental acrobatics to twist this verse into something it is not...
The command is clear Bani Israel were told to kill themselves for their action. They refused, so God killed them and resurrected them to prove His point...Simple and clear.
I completely disagree. It is not clear at all that it says what you say it says. Quite the opposite, I think it is a clear hint that we must go with care when meeting the term q-t-l. For me the context, the rest of the speech and the whole content of Qur'an make the meaning kill themselves impossible and very contradictory with the content of the Qur'an. Far from clear.
Salaam
