Verse 2:54 Perhaps Needs Proper Translation

huruf

That is what we get when we try to explain the "lack of clarity" of the Qur'an by means of the Bible. It has been done for so many things and we are paying for it very dearly, but we do not have enough of it so we look for more.

The Qur'an was revealed as a guide and to clarify everything that was not clear previously due to human intervention to twist revelation, but we want to clarify the Qur'an with what was not clear previously. Fantastic! What an achievement!

Salaam

Farabi

q-t-l in itself and as I pointed in another thread, does not originally and by itself mean kill. Kill seems to have been a letter specialisation by derivation, like it has happened with d-r-b. Therefore inn this aya we must see what fits with instances like this in the Qur'an when something very wrong has been done and people are told to repent and... ?

If we find that out we may be a step ahead for interpreting better other instances of q-t-l which have been taken for granted.

This is not the only instance where q-t-l glaringly does not fit as kill, although I would be able now to remember the other instance at leas where I have seen that.

Salaam

Qital mean killing. The verse about war using the word QTL to describe the act of killing each other. And there is another word, JHD which mean struggle. QTL is part of JHD, but JHD is not only mean QTL. NFQ your money to feed your family is also JHD.

Farabi

Nice, as per that, it looks Moses the leader tells his people to do some kind of ritual practice of penance so that some among them got killed and the remaining survived, forgiven by their God? It looks more horrific than the Molten Calf and the offerings.

That is why I said the quran might be Jibril words which is commanded by God. Because God himself is hard.

huruf

Qital mean killing. The verse about war using the word QTL to describe the act of killing each other. And there is another word, JHD which mean struggle. QTL is part of JHD, but JHD is not only mean QTL. NFQ your money to feed your family is also JHD.

No, q-t-l is not killing, st least no in all cases, that is precisely what is being discussed. You do not bring any argument to uphold q-t-l in spite of it not fitting many contexts. Speaking as if from a pulpit affirming does not ake it so. People have brought enough arguments at least to answer them. Reirting to saying as if you were the authority that q-t-l is killing does not make it so. It is obvious in some contexts that it cannot be killing.

Salaam

Farabi

No, q-t-l is not killing, st least no in all cases, that is precisely what is being discussed. You do not bring any argument to uphold q-t-l in spite of it not fitting many contexts. Speaking as if from a pulpit affirming does not ake it so. People have brought enough arguments at least to answer them. Reirting to saying as if you were the authority that q-t-l is killing does not make it so. It is obvious in some contexts that it cannot be killing.

Salaam

Im just sharing my opinions. I've been reading the quran half of my life and I saw many translation. QTL only fit in killing context. Of cource on a word there is "amsal" meaning, or on your words it was a parable, metaphor. Like, "kill some time". But as far as I can see on every verse QTL mean killing.

Have a look on every verse using the word QTL http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qtl#%2821911%29

Of course, I tend to make mistake but if you asked me, QTL mean is killing.

huruf

I think, people who have answered this thread and questioned q-t-l = kill is precisely that, check the ocurrences in the Qur'an, and that is why they question the q-t-l meaning, because they have checked, not because they have not checked.

Salaam

Farabi

I think, people who have answered this thread and questioned q-t-l = kill is precisely that, check the ocurrences in the Qur'an, and that is why they question the q-t-l meaning, because they have checked, not because they have not checked.

Salaam

OK, sorry.
The thread gone too long, I did not read it one by one. Please carry on...,.

hawk99

Peace

Thank you Huruf and Farabi, for your interesting dialogue, I was "killing time" waiting to engaged in
a further discussion of the topic. Maybe it would be beneficial to define "your-self."

self

noun

noun self ? plural noun selves

1.a person's essential being that distinguishes them from others, especially considered as the object of
introspection or reflexive action

"our alienation from our true selves"

synonyms ego ? I ? oneself ? persona ? person ? identity ? character ? personality ? psyche ?
soul ? spirit ? mind ? (inner) being

There are synonyms of "self" that fit in the context of spiritual growth and development. Synonyms of
"self" that one can "kill" and afterwards repent.

P.S. synonyms have synonyms

God bless

peace

zayd

Salaam.

According to Raghib (as quoted by G.A. Parwez in Lughatul Qur'an), QTL means "to make someone bend".

http//qes.no/Lughat/index.html
http//qes.no/Lughat/LughatVolum-III.pdf (PDF)

I think that could be the basic meaning that fits the derived meanings.

To bend (someone/something to your will)
-> to make someone or something yield
-> to conquer, to master, to overcome, to defeat, to subdue, to control
-> to know something or someone very well
-> to fight, to oppose, to kill, to murder

To bend (to bring low)
-> to humiliate, to abase, to humble
-> to make something ineffective, to dilute, to cancel, to suppress, to deprive

humble/control/master your selves/egos

(Please see my post in this topic here)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606834.msg358801#msg358801

,
killing the prophets
could also be interpreted as

opposing/disobeying the prophets, making the prophets' teachings ineffective or crooked

Do not kill your children for fear of poverty.
could also be interpreted as

Do not deprive your children (don't skimp on their nutrition/health/education needs) for fear of poverty.

In verses like , and , QTL should be interpreted as "to subdue" or similar. Of course, killing is unavoidable in war, but it's also possible to make someone surrender or to defeat them without killing them. talks about releasing prisoners of war.

zayd

Dr Shabbir Ahmed's translation

And recall when Moses said to his people, ?O My people! You have hurt yourselves by worshiping the calf. So, turn in repentance to your Maker and kill your ego. This will be best for you in the Sight of your Maker.? Thereupon He turned towards you in forgiveness. He is the Acceptor of repentance, the Merciful.

And recall when you said, ?O Moses! We will not believe in you unless we see God face to face!? Thereupon thunder struck you as you were looking on.

Then We revived you, and raised you from a dead to a living nation so that you might show gratitude.

Farabi

Zayd, "To kill our carnal desires" is fell to amsal category, not literal category, to "kill" desires, you use sawm words. You cannot use QTL for killing your desire, you have to use words SWM. QTL only used for words like NFS which is one self who feel this and that, and there is another word for part of living RH, or people translated is as soul.

Lets change the meaning of qital for example as tickling. So tickling the kafirun wherever you met them, if the stop, you stop tickling them. What will be happened if you changed the translation? People will asking, what if they tried to kill me? What if my familiy killed? Violence is reality we must faced and the quran had solution for that. That is my point.

reel

Thanks Man of Faith. I was happy to find that meaning D
I tried to do more research on this. Noticed that even some Jewish were challenging the meaning of Qatal used in Hebrew. Google "Alleged Non-past Uses of Qatal in Classical Hebrew" By Max Frederick Rogland.

But if we take this "Peaceful verses of Quran reveal that
"qatala" actually means to "cause to know, teach, explain, instruct"
as well as "purify, cleanse, fix, repair" into consideration then this is how the verse looks

"O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf . So repent to your Creator and purify yourselves. That is best for you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful 254

I can now actually see that verse 95 has been translated fully wrong.....the guy here did point this out quite logically https//sites.google.com/site/kitkirja/catala---katala---qatala

When I read the "official" people's translations I can no longer help laughing rotfl

Look how comical it sounds95
Step 1 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them
Army strategy The soldiers were to kill all the polytheists

Step 2 and capture them and besiege them
Army' strategy after killing them capture and besiege the dead bodies ???

Step 3 and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush
Army's strategy near ambush Although sitting near ambush means Prophet Muhammad's soldiers would not stay alive at all they are to do it anyways -\

Congrats! After capturing dead bodies and death of believing soldiers near ambush, Prophet Muhammad becomes victorious hypno

95 continues......
But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

nope Not sure how they will repent and establish prayer after their death!

Hizbullah

Salam,

Without comprehending the intricacies of the Quranic system, it will be difficult to comprehend the whole Quran. This means the knowledge of the Quranic verses through out its entirety are link up together. This is how ALLAH the author of the Quran protect HIS Book. So for 0254, it should be read in conjunction with 0285, 07149 and 6114. No where in the verse that says ALLAH commands the "Bani Israel to kill themselves". It is actually a sequence of events that happened during the era of Musa and Esa, whereby Musa's prophesied, that is...

The Bani Israel will take the calf invoking ALLAH
The Bani Israel will fight among each other

1a. 0254 - And (remember) when Musa said to his people "O my people! Verily, you have wronged yourselves by worshipping the calf. So turn in repentance to your Creator...

The Bani Israel, after they had realized their mistakes, they turn to repentance as per verse 07149

07149 - And when regret overcame them and they saw that they had gone astray, they said, "If our Lord does not have mercy upon us and forgive us, we will surely be among the losers."

1b. Than - you kill yourselves.

The Bani Israel, during the era of Esa, they fight among themselves as per the Quran in verse 0285 and 6114

0285 - Then, you are those killing one another and evicting a party of your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden to you. So do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.

The above verse should be read in conjunction with 6114

6114 - O you who have believed, be supporters of ALLAH, as when Esa, the son of Maryam, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for ALLAH?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of ALLAH." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.

The supporters of ALLAH - the Al Ansar .

Salam

Man_of_Faith

Harmony be with you reel,

I am very glad that there can be external sources that confirm my stance in the interpretation of Quran, and also that I can find some source which confirms my understanding of the 'innate meaning of individual Arabic letters' which brought me to this conclusion independently of these news from you. This understanding of the letters is a major breakthrough because it opens up a way of exposing the mistreated Arabic language, twisted to fit in a Pagan faith abusing its passages.
But the more ways one can prove a point the better as it appears more solid then and less open to dispute except by people void of logic.

I have had problems with this 254 passage because it is terrible from a literal sense because the only outcome of killing/terminating a "nafs" is that the person is utterly dead, and Arabic words do not carry multiple meanings very distinct from each other even if they can be used differently depending on context.

Qatal is also used in a passage which speaks of alleged suicide although in truth it does not. It is misfit in a sentence speaking of usury and it actually speaks that they should correct themselves rather than suddenly say "do not kill yourselves". If one applies rationality and logic they ought to see talk about suicide comes very abrupt and from a poor literal qualitative sense.

I am going to take a closer look upon the translation there as to why it is claimed it would say do not correct yourself, but that is because people have the wrong idea of what is a negative particle, another mistake by people who have attempted to decipher the text.

Regarding the violent nature of 91-912 this is due to the misconception of 'qatal' as well of many other words, but in fact this dozen of passages do not speak of killing... whatsoever. It is a shock I understand.

But Quran in truth has the same peaceful nature as the teachings of Jesus, i.e. not so focused on warfare and aggressive killing of so-called "disbelievers" which the kafar word has come to symbolize and which actually means "distort" and kafaroon is a "distorter" and the word literally means " Cause Forth Foundation", so conjecture comes forth quite well with the word. This is why "God" is seeming so very angry in the narration.

But the invented disbelievers have always taken the beating here. A Jinn is your faithless person also used as a curse word by the Jews in English Gentiles which comes from Gens in Latin and in return more than likely comes from Hebrew... Jinn. Satan is a Jinn because he is faithless. The word Jinn can also mark "Lowly One", and Jaan is used for serpent.

And 'amen' on the other hand does mean faith as in spiritual affinity and does not reflect to mere belief. You need more than belief to be "amen b'Allah" but much have the spiritual affinity and why you seem to need to "believe" traditionally in so much in Quran, however spiritual affinity with "God" is sufficient because then you have the same affinity as all servants too such as angels or prophets. The Arabic is abused here too.

Certainty (belief) is marked by another Arabic work that is (edited) 'khwaf'.
And on top of that the favorite ritual prayer word 'salat(eh)' does not mark that but speaks of representing "God" through behavior (the way you appear). Prayers exists, but not that word but by Du'a and it is not a ritualistic timing or observance associated either.

Have faith

Farabi

which the kafar word has come to symbolize and which actually means "distort" and kafaroon is a "distorter" and the word literally means

Have a look at the verse saying a farmer cover their land with seeds, or something like that. KFR mean, something closed, or something covered. Have a look. I forget on which verse was that.

Farabi

This is the patter of the quran words I can understand, this kind of pattern is not used anymore on modern arabic. This pattern only used on ancient hebrew before quran.

QTL
Qutila = Killed
Qutili = Killed
Qutilu = Killed

Qotala = Killing
Qotali = Killing
Qotalu = Killing

Qotila = Killer
Qotili = Killer
Qotilu = Killer

Qutulu = Massacres/Killings

Yaqtulu (Ya + QTL) = He massacres
Taqtulu (Ta + QTL ) = She massacres
Naqtulu (Na + QTL) = We massacress

The same works to every triliteral word for example KTB, HKM, MLK, NSR etc etc. Not used for biliteral word or singular word like B, RB and also not for beeing used for word ALY.

Example
Malik = Possesor
Malaka = Possesing
Mulika = Possesed

Man_of_Faith

Farabi,

If kafar is used in an agricultural context it is because he produces crops, till the land etc, not cover the land with seeds which does not make sense. The word marks to bring forth something. If you "kafara b'Allah" you produce something about "God". But the important is that the combination of marks to cause forth something.

Have faith

Farabi

Farabi,

If kafar is used in an agricultural context it is because he produces crops, till the land etc, not cover the land with seeds which does not make sense. The word marks to bring forth something. If you "kafara b'Allah" you produce something about "God". But the important is that the combination of marks to cause forth something.

Have faith

Oh its Verse (5720). I dont know why the tillers is as a tranlation for "Alkuffara". I've checked all the word using KFR but found nothing talked about covering something. Maybe youre right.

AbdulAziz_Mohammed

Well I am a native Arabian, I find it easy to understand but still I could always be wrong. The verse doesn't say kill your self, but instead kill your own ppl (Meaning those who didn't worship should kill those who worshiped the calf). And if you read the Bible this is actually what happened there, they didn't kill themselves, instead they fought each others and killed each others. Like he said in another verse

or

coz el nafs doesn't mean the spirit/soul inside us but "us" or "your own" so the meaning of

(you get your own ppl out of) it can be country, home, ...etc

Peace

Farabi

Well I am a native Arabian, I find it easy to understand but still I could always be wrong. The verse doesn't say kill your self, but instead kill your own ppl (Meaning those who didn't worship should kill those who worshiped the calf). And if you read the Bible this is actually what happened there, they didn't kill themselves, instead they fought each others and killed each others. Like he said in another verse

or

coz el nafs doesn't mean the spirit/soul inside us but "us" or "your own" so the meaning of

(you get your own ppl out of) it can be country, home, ...etc

Peace

Thanks. That is very helpfull. I though so too, but I need a confirmation from someone know arabic better than I.

What about tasrif, is it still beeing used now? I saw the reciting is still using tasrif but not the written.