Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Rami,
I agree. The great reading doesn't specify a calendar and doesn't state exactly when a month that has the meaningless name of Ramadan is. Human calendars are ultimately dependent on when the era was made to start, which month it started with, the order of the months and the meaningless names of the months. This is the same as for the week. When religious holy days occur is also 100% arbitrary and manmade. For example, when Friday, Saturday and Sunday occur depends on when the 7 day week was adopted, which day it started with and the arbitrary order and assigned labels of the days. The great reading doesn't specify any of the above either for months or for weeks. So yes, it certainly doesn't specify a calendar. However, what is abundantly clear is that it specifies and keeps telling us to pay attention to clear cosmic phenomena for timing. This is why based on this correct understanding we are now and at any time in the future able to know with certainty when to fast no matter what happened or did not happen in the past. Those who are arguing for the sectarian manmade calendar cannot get this point and cannot experience this.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Ayman, this makes a lot of sense but I'd like to know how it was determined what 'abstaining' (as it is translated) means/covers? How do we know it refers to fasting? And if it does, how do we know it's food AND water, since going without water all day--especially if you happen to be working out in the fields or outside in the scorching sun all day--can be quite unhealthy; people can become very dehydrated. As far I know, the following verses are the only ones that touch on this subject. Again, as with many other important topics, these verses are also vague/unclear and open to interpretation, not to mention scattered throughout the Qur'an. I can't help but wonder why God would not have made them a bit more specific/clear. These are your translations, taken from your first couple of posts.
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The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
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And We appointed for Moussa thirty nights, and We completed with ten thus was completed the timing of his Lord, forty nights...
10.5. It is He who made the sun a shining brightness and the moon a light and made it stages; so that you might know the number of years and the calculation. The God didn't create this except with the truth, He explains His signs to people who know.
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
If 2185 is translated correctly, and if 'witness' is indeed the word used, it becomes clear that one cannot witness a month; however, one can witness the moon. But how does one 'abstain' it? How does one abstain or even fast a moon?
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Conventional knowledge is death to our souls,
and it is not really ours. It is laid on.
Yet we keep saying we find "rest" in these "beliefs."We must become ignorant of what we have been taught
and be instead bewildered.-Rumi
He was so right.
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Peace Scheherezade,
Ayman, this makes a lot of sense but I'd like to know how it was determined what 'abstaining' (as it is translated) means/covers? How do we know it refers to fasting? And if it does, how do we know it's food AND water, since going without water all day--especially if you happen to be working out in the fields or outside in the scorching sun all day--can be quite unhealthy; people can become very dehydrated. As far I know, the following verses are the only ones that touch on this subject. Again, as with many other important topics, these verses are also vague/unclear and open to interpretation, not to mention scattered throughout the Qur'an. I can't help but wonder why God would not have made them a bit more specific/clear. These are your translations, taken from your first couple of posts.
2185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.2187 clarifies what the fasting is about
- It has been made lawful for you during the night of abstinence to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. The god knows that you used to betray yourselves so he has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what the god has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of daybreak; then you shall complete the abstinence until the night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the institutions of obedience. These are the god?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that the god makes his revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
The abstinence is prescribed only for those who can do it without difficulty. Those who can do it but with difficulty should substitute by feeding a poor person. It is not an obligatory thing to do.
If 2185 is translated correctly, and if 'witness' is indeed the word used, it becomes clear that one cannot witness a month; however, one can witness the moon. But how does one 'abstain' it? How does one abstain or even fast a moon?
There are two possible explanations.
In Arabic people regularly use expressions like "Omrat Ramadan". This doesn't mean that they will be going on the sectarian Omrat for the whole month that they call Ramadan. This simply means that the month of Ramadan is what marks this "Omrat" of theirs. Same thing with "abstain it". The scorching full-moon only marks the abstinence. How long (the complete count of a few days) and what the abstinence is about (food and water and sexual contact during the day) are given in other places around 2185. Had "abstain it" meant "abstain a month" then the info about how long given elsewhere would be redundant and unnecessary.
The other possible explanation is that the "it" (like the previous it) could be referring to the "abstinence that was decreed on you". So the passage is saying "abstain the abstinence that was decreed on you (not just any abstinence)".
Either of those explanations easily resolves any perceived logical issues. On the other hand, the interpretation of "shahr" as month creates several insurmountable logical absurdities
- Of course "witnessed a month" is illogical since one cannot witness a month as you said.
- It is also illogical since "witnessed" is in the perfect past tense. So logically this would imply that one would have to witness the month first and then go back in time and fast it.
- Just "being present" in a month is logically not enough since everyone is present but the passage is talking about "whomever amongst you" (meaning some amongst you did not witness) and therefore this is further confirmation that the passage is talking about witnessing the event of the scorching full moon.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace guest
have many breaks, and may Allah rests your souljazakallah for the ayat 105, it actually goes opposite to what you think ;D
however since you have not particularly been nice to me, i will not give you any hint, let us see if your one kilo mass of fat cells between your ears can figure this out for themselves...
though i doubt it will assuage you, you will again try and find something else to force your lunar calendar through, as you are a stubborn individual who is a creature of habits, and who make no effort to think for himself...
Peace,
Give me a break. The Quran clearly tells us to establish a LUNAR calendar otherwise we would be NON-COMPLIANT with many God's commandments.
105 - He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.
Without a calendar you cannot count or calculate years.
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Conventional knowledge is death to our souls,
and it is not really ours. It is laid on.
Yet we keep saying we find "rest" in these "beliefs."We must become ignorant of what we have been taught
and be instead bewildered.-Rumi
WARNING Please beware of poets and the ignorant people who quote them. Poets are one of the key reasons why we have Greek Mythology (half human and half animal, thousands of gods, idol worship ?.). They are DISBLEIVER as evident from the following Quranic verses
26224 - As for the poets, they are followed only by the strayers.
3669 - What we taught him (the messenger) was not poetry, nor is he (a poet). This is but a formidable proof, and a profound Quran.
6941 - Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
??and it is not really ours? implies that we don?t have to believe in ONE GOD (disbeliever) and can commit bad deeds without any consequences i.e. no punishment since the soul is not ours.
Therefore, please ignore Rumi?s poetry and the Rumi lovers.
He is so WRONG.
Professor Nabster, why are you silent on this irrelevant and untruth post? Do you love Rumi?s nonsense poetry as well?
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Peace,
Peace guest
however since you have not particularly been nice to me, i will not give you any hint, let us see if your one kilo mass of fat cells between your ears can figure this out for themselves...
Thank you for the "NO HINT". Save IT for the disbelievers. Peace.
The worshipers of the Most Gracious are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speak to them, they only utter peace (2563). Peace, peace.
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Peace guest
there are so many wrong things in this world, i would not know where to start...
on this thread i focus on calendar...
rumi was astray and mentally sick, same with all sufis...
as you wish, no hint, and thank you for the label, it is mutual btw, peace to you too...
peace peaceThe worshipers of the Most Gracious are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speak to them, they only utter peace (2563). Peace, peace.
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WARNING Please beware of poets and the ignorant people who quote them. Poets are one of the key reasons why we have Greek Mythology (half human and half animal, thousands of gods, idol worship ?.). They are DISBLEIVER as evident from the following Quranic verses
26224 - As for the poets, they are followed only by the strayers.
3669 - What we taught him (the messenger) was not poetry, nor is he (a poet). This is but a formidable proof, and a profound Quran.
6941 - Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
??and it is not really ours? implies that we don?t have to believe in ONE GOD (disbeliever) and can commit bad deeds without any consequences i.e. no punishment since the soul is not ours.
Therefore, please ignore Rumi?s poetry and the Rumi lovers.
He is so WRONG.
Professor Nabster, why are you silent on this irrelevant and untruth post? Do you love Rumi?s nonsense poetry as well?
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-Thomas Jefferson
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"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-Thomas Jefferson
The slaves were denied education to keep them ignorant, do you prefer that over error. Error is correctable with education. You need to think and comprehend. You need time to do that.
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at last something we can agree on, (on top of foundational principles of monotheism that is...)
The slaves were denied education to keep them ignorant, do you prefer that over error.
Error is correctable with education. You need to think and comprehend. You need time to do that. -
This thread is so incredibly long...
Are there good arguments on inner pages that can be highlighted in a separate, shorter thread?
This thread waas realy realy very hot sun dont reopen it please but yes you can find some very good arguments in it. police
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Peace Sarah,
This thread is so incredibly long...
Are there good arguments on inner pages that can be highlighted in a separate, shorter thread?This thread is long as a result of attempts to refute the arguments on page 1 but instead unwillingly contributing to strengthening them and inadvertently creating the most detailed resource anywhere in the world on the issue of the timing according to the great reading. So the good arguments are on page 1 and if you can read between the lines then the rest is just the icing on the cake.
Peace,
Ayman
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seconded,
almost no one here has the time to go through 143 pages of material and figure out what's worth reading and what isn't.Selam Sarah
I followed it for months and feel there were loads of circular arguments. Someone will leave the discussion after hitting a brick wall and then another come back and start the same argument all over again. The fact is the argument could possibly be condenced to 10 pages, most of the pages are repeated discussions hence the circular argument bit. I personally feel Ayman is on to something here and would like for him to continue his study in this area, may Allah give him patients and good health to continue and produce his findings as an article for us to read and judge with an open mind.
Peace