Hot/"ramadan" Answer

belH

From Arabic Classical dictionaries

sana/sineen periods of little/no rain/dryness/drought

Peace;

When reading the Quran verses where Sana is used, the meaning that you suggested, period of Drought, is wrong.
When reading 2-96, 5-26, 22-47, 32-5 ,46-15, 12-42 and others, I think that Sana is Year.

Samia

Peace;

When reading the Quran verses where Sana is used, the meaning that you suggested, period of Drought, is wrong.
When reading 2-96, 5-26, 22-47, 32-5 ,46-15, 12-42 and others, I think that Sana is Year.

Salaam belal

I quoted only one verse, not quoted by you, where sineen means "little rain/draught. Does this mean you agree? I clearly said the other verses do not have that meaning explicitly, and asked for opinions.

Samia

Peace Samia;
If you believe it means something else, then please let me know.
Then I will have to prove to you, by Quran, if your or my meaning is supported by Quran.
Salam

Peace Progod
Good point; please let me remind you of a verse where God was refering to something similar to what you say; please note that he did not use the Word Rammadan

(&#65279

Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Blazen (Scorching) water. And he found near it a people. We said "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (18-86)

Please note the Frequancy of the Words in the Quran that were used to refer to Hot (or scorching).

peace

is black mud and is an adjective meaning like black mud or a spring of black mud or water mixed with black mud.

belH

Salaam belal

I quoted only one verse, not quoted by you, where sineen means "little rain/draught. Does this mean you agree? I clearly said the other verses do not have that meaning explicitly, and asked for opinions.

Would you agree, based on the verses I provided, that we can not say that Sana means Drought?
Also, the verse you quoted does not have to be Drought, but could mean other meanings. It could mean that for years God punished the people of Pharos.

is black mud and is an adjective meaning like black mud or a spring of black mud or water mixed with black mud.

Agree based on verses 15-26, 28. But in these verses The Mud could be Red Mud as well; don't you agree? thus, The meaning I refered to could be right, if we take the root word for Hamma'a into consideration. The Root word is "Hamia", which means HOT.
peace

progod

Peace Ayman,

This is another case of you taking things too far. A burning sensation and the color red are not the same. These quotes are obviously referring to the burning sensation and NOT redness. To guess redness is adding a meaning that is not there, by conjecture. Not everyone's thighs turn red either. That depends on how dark their thighs are. And not all Arabs are light-skinned Arabs. In any case this is typical you. You should just admit that you are inserting your own meanings into these contexts. Because redness, which is humr, is not there. If Ramada referred to redness there would be an obvious meaning of Ihmarra (to turn red) or hamira (to be red). There is no need to change the meaning of a word based on what YOU think it should be, instead of what is actually mentioned.

The dictionary doesn't say 'Burning eyes with the logical and normal connotation that these eyes, and everything else that has strong heat involved, are red.' That is what would have to be there to say that ramada implies redness. So now you are doing what a great deal of Free-minders used to do with words inside of the Quran (changing their meanings to what they think they should mean despite what the definition of the word really is), but now you are doing it to the words in the context of the dictionaries. Great Job! Not.

Godbless,
Anwar

Peace Anwar,

Quote from progod on Today at 074242 AM
I never claimed that if someone's eyes burned they turned any color. Most times they do turn red (sometimes they don't turn any color).

This is all that needed to be acknowledged. We are talking about normal mundane common connotations and not about exceptions.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Anwar,

The dictionary doesn't say 'Burning eyes with the logical and normal connotation that these eyes, and everything else that has strong heat involved, are red.'

The dictionary doesn't say that "strawberries with the logical and normal connotation that these strawberries, and everything else that has strawberries involved, is red". Yet somehow, English-speaking people know that when people mention "strawberry moon" they talk about the moon around the summer solstice because that is when strawberries are harvested and because it is RED. Similarly, ancient Arabs undoubtedly knew that when people mention "scorching full-moon" they talk about the full-moon after the summer solstice because that is when the weather is hot and it is RED.

Let me put it in a simpler way so that maybe you can get it. You have two people in front of you. One has normal white eyes and the other one has red eyes. One of them complains that their eyes are scorching. Which one do you think it is? The answer is clear.

Now you have two full-moons in front of you. One is white and the other is red. One of them is described exactly like the eyes as the scorching full-moon. Which one do you think it is? The answer is again clear. If you have a clearer and more common sense answer, then please share it instead of hurling useless dogmatic and prejudiced arguments.

Peace,

Ayman

belH

Now you have two full-moons in front of you. One is white and the other is red. One of them is described exactly like the eyes as the scorching full-moon. Which one do you think it is? The answer is again clear. If you have a clearer and more common sense answer, then please share it instead of hurling useless dogmatic and prejudiced arguments.

Peace Ayman
Can I answer?
Thank you
I will choose the one that is more Red

Peace everyone,

2185 Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it

Which is Ramadan?

Solstice Moon Illusion June 16, 2008 Full Strawberry Moon or Rose Moon

http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg

Harvest Moon - September

http//www.earthsky.org/images/13821.jpg

This is the full Moon that occurs closest to the autumn equinox. At the peak of harvest, farmers can work late into the night by the light of this Moon.

Hunter's Moon - October

http//www.nightskyinfo.com/sky_highlights/hunters_moon/full_moon_small.jpg

With the leaves falling and the deer fattened, it is time to hunt. Since the fields have been reaped, hunters can easily see fox and the animals which have come out to glean.

That would be the Hunter Moon and I would never choose the Solistic Moon because it looks whiter !.

Note, Rammadan does not mean Red or Hot, nor Shaher means Full Moon, according to Quran )

Umm_Tariq

Peace be upon all,

"You are a new member here and I hardly know you, I am surprised that you are offended by my general statement where I used the word "we"; that means including myself, I am sorry, its your problem if you took it as directed towards you. However I have highlighed above in red ,in your reply, where you are calling yourself part of Ayman's camp even though you say that you need to study this subject.
You seek refuge with the god from arrogance, so do I, but I do not see Ayman doing that, as he clearly wants to impose his theory or he calls others ignorant, "those who are lost" to him he is the only informed one and his is the "simple and elegant method" Roll Eyes"

Farida, you using 'we' is still an assumption on your part about 'everyone else', just talk about yourself might be better. Like I said, it doesn't help in a mutual discussion where people are trying to learn. Why is it that if two people, from two completely different backgrounds happen to come to the same conclusion on what something means in the god's book it becomes one or the other's 'camp'? Ayman was not in my house when I first began reading people's articles and posts and holding a gun to my head for me to only accept what he says! I investigated what I read and if I agreed alhamdulillah and if I didn't alhamdulillah. Does anyone here agree with everything any other person says? This is what I mean Farida, having to go off topic because you insist on making such comments and personal attacks on others, IT DOESN"T HELP!!! And because I am new just trying to seek more information, I do not need you throwing your hatred for someone else towards me just because I happen to agree with one of their opinions that is based on the god's book. You two should make peace between each other and all who like to throw around personal insults should refrain from doing so. Be straightforward but don't make assumptions without proof or just trying to provoke others. Farida, you talk about how Ayman acts but when I read your posts, I see that you feel just as strong as well about your opinions and in my opinion you can be very offensive about it as well. As a new member, when I read your posts, I feel turned off from even seeing what you have to say because of how offensive you are. This is my honest observation. Is it all necessary? Can we be firm, but yet openminded, about our opinions based on the reading without being offensive to one another??

"Also, as far as the descending of the reading, we do know that it was sent down upon one man, the messenger/ prophet Muhammad and he was in a particular area. We can also try looking at it from this angle."

This was just a suggestion really. Your truth is not necessarily someone else's truth, THE TRUTH is in the god's book and we can all try our best to understanding it properly.

Here are my exact questions again 'bold' if you can answer from your viewpoint anew or cut and paste from where you believe you already answered them since I cannot find them.

"...It hasn't made any sense to me 'witness/ see a month'. Looking at the Saudi sunni translations that I have with me, they add the words 'the new moon of' before 'month'. This is another indication to me that something is not right since the god uses the word for 'new moon', as they understand it, in the reading 'ahillah' but He is not using it in this verse, why? However, if the meaning is full moon then there is no need to 'perfect' it."

"In 2228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month. However, in verse 654, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'. "

"When I read this verse for meaning the first time I noticed that these '4 ashhur' should be consecutive, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Then in verse 95, the god confirms that these '4 ashhur' are the 4 hurum. How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum?" (If you are not following the sunni traditionalist calendar as it is, you believe it is different in some way, then please share your opinion about that, i.e. which are the 4 hurum in your opinion.)

"Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?"

I am asking these questions to any who believe that 'shahr' means 'month'. I would like these questions answered from this perspective so I can compare, that's all. I appreciate anyone's input.

Umm Tariq

Umm_Tariq

Peace Ayman,

"This would depend on when the event of the full-moon occured. Remember your excellent analogy of full-moons and menstruations. The number of days will depend on when those events occur in relation to the start of the counting."

Yes and I did update that point in a later post by mentioning 'in the minimum' it's off by a 'month'.

"I don't think that anyone (including me) can say with certainty what 3412 is talking about. "

( O Our Lord, increase us in knowledge.

"A year with 13 full-moons occurs every three years and interestingly this simple and elegant method given in 936 would automatically and accurately maintain the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons."

Have you personally been counting the full moons yourself since you came to this conclusion about 'shahr' and noticed this happened during your count? I intend to start this myself, it would be the first time I ever did such in my life, now there's a good reason to try it.

Of course all of the praise and thanks is to the god for any good and for what helps increase us in knowledge and wisdom. I didn't see anything wrong with thanking you personally for your post since it was informative for me alhamdulillah. May the god reward us all for our sincere efforts and guide us to the truth in which the people differ.

Umm Tariq

unknownuser

Peace Umm Tariq,

"In 2228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month.

....However, in verse 654, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'. "

There is no disagreement; depends on date of divorce and menstrual cycle.

Full Moon/Menstrual Dates 2008
September 15 415 A.M.
October 14 304 P.M.
November 13 1219 A.M.
December 12 1038 A.M.

If divorce is on Oct 13 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 2 months

If divorce is on Sept 16 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 3 months maximum

For 2228 we are to use 3 menstrual cycles as stated, whereas...

2234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they (the wives) wait with themselves four months, and ten (days)?

How should women past menopause (average age 45 to 55) read the above?

Wait 4 full moons/menstrual cycles and 10 days -- how does that work?

For 2234 we are to use 4 months and 10 days as stated.

Peace

Umm_Tariq

Peace Nun de Plume,

I appreciate your post. I understand what you mean about how the starting dates vary and which will vary the whole time waiting, this happens whether one uses 'full moon' or 'month. However, notice that I was referring to 'the minimum' in both verses. I was looking at the consistency of the two verses. In the minimum, if you translate 654 using 'full moon' then it will automatically equal the time in 2228, in the minimum. You see what I am talking about? If you use 'month' then, in the minimum, they do not agree and that's what for me, gives weight to 'full moon'. Yeah, I just noticed something, you only put possible dates based on the menstrual cycles which is a clear marker. If we do the same for the women in 654 using 'month' (this is my contention) then this is what we get

Full Moon/Month Dates 2008
September 15 415 A.M.
October 14 304 P.M.
November 13 1219 A.M.
December 12 1038 A.M.

If divorce is on Oct. 13 she waits for 3 'months', until Jan. 13th.

If divorce is on Oct. 13 she waits for 3 'full moons' until Dec. 12th (2 'months' approx.)

If divorce is on Oct 13 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 2 months

If divorce is on Sept. 16 she waits for 3 'full moons' (just shy of 3 months total)\

If divorce is on Sept 16 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 3 months maximum

You see the agreement between menstrual cycles calculations and full moons as opposed to using 'months' outright? In the minimum case for 'months', 3 months is 3 months.

For 2228 we are to use 3 menstrual cycles as stated, whereas...

2234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they (the wives) wait with themselves four months, and ten (days)?

How should women past menopause (average age 45 to 55) read the above?

Wait 4 full moons/menstrual cycles and 10 days -- how does that work?

For 2234 we are to use 4 months and 10 days as stated.

Peace

I don't see the difference in how women past menopause read the above since it's for whoever's husband has died. They of course can't count by menstrual cycles but they can count by 'full moons' as well which as you can see would come out, in the minimum to be 3 'months' and 10 days. Using the dates example helped bring more clarity to the issue.

Umm Tariq

farida

Peace be upon all,
Farida, you using 'we' is still an assumption on your part about 'everyone else', just talk about yourself might be better.

Salaam Umm Tariq,
I am sorry I do not look at it that way.

Like I said, it doesn't help in a mutual discussion where people are trying to learn. ..... I investigated what I read and if I agreed alhamdulillah and if I didn't alhamdulillah. Does anyone here agree with everything any other person says?

If you are honestly trying to learn, then how come you are ignoring excellent points raised by
progod Anwar, I commend his patience in this thread, he has honestly and unbiasly covered the linguistic approach to many words; that makes no sense to you?
Nun de plume, excellent observation with regards to the summer solstice full moon an impressive calculation,
Belalhammad summed up Put yourself in the Prophet postion, would you prepare for a war four weeks before the 4 restricted month?
Verse 9-81 is after the 4 restricted Months, when the prophet had 8 month to go for a very important and hard war.
9-81 is the verse that collapsed the foundation of Ayman's theory, as you said in regard of Progod.
You have learned nothing from these posts ???

This is what I mean Farida, having to go off topic because you insist on making such comments and personal attacks on others, IT DOESN"T HELP!!!

Yes I too dislike when topic is derailed and people are distracted from the actul issues. AND I MADE NO SUCH PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. I DO NOT KNOW YOU PERSONALLY NO DO I HAVE ANY SUCH DESIRE.

And because I am new just trying to seek more information, I do not need you throwing your hatred for someone else towards me just because I happen to agree with one of their opinions that is based on the god's book.

I am NOT throwing hatred towards anyone; I am simply defending my faith.

You two should make peace between each other and all who like to throw around personal insults should refrain from doing so. Be straightforward but don't make assumptions without proof or just trying to provoke others. Farida, you talk about how Ayman acts but when I read your posts, I see that you feel just as strong as well about your opinions and in my opinion you can be very offensive about it as well. As a new member, when I read your posts, I feel turned off from even seeing what you have to say because of how offensive you are. This is my honest observation. Is it all necessary? Can we be firm, but yet openminded, about our opinions based on the reading without being offensive to one another??

Maybe you missed this post of mine too

Salaam Ayman,

I notice you have been ignoring my posts of late. If, in any way, I have offended you please understand it was not malicious but sometimes, in order to reach a conclusion, one needs to be frank and straightforward.
I would like to thank you for inviting me to take part in this discussion, and let me tell you it has been the most productive ten day of the month of Ramadan for me, and a lot of the credit goes to you for making us find out the truth ourselves.

Best regards
farida

I hope you notice that I received no response to my appeal above just because I disagreed with Ayman BTW you would exempt the blinds (positive discrimination) from fasting too ???

This was just a suggestion really. Your truth is not necessarily someone else's truth,

I too only gave my common sense approach, which coincides with the truth that time continues.

THE TRUTH is in the god's book and we can all try our best to understanding it properly. Here are my exact questions again 'bold' if you can answer from your viewpoint anew or cut and paste from where you believe you already answered them since I cannot find them.

"...It hasn't made any sense to me 'witness/ see a month'. Looking at the Saudi sunni translations that I have with me, they add the words 'the new moon of' before 'month'. This is another indication to me that something is not right since the god uses the word for 'new moon', as they understand it, in the reading 'ahillah' but He is not using it in this verse, why? However, if the meaning is full moon then there is no need to 'perfect' it."

Maybe you missed this post too which btw. is backed by "THE TRUTH is in the god's book"
Re Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #258 on September 09, 2008, 013650 PM ?

Therefore I don't need to remind that for all answers here (unless one's personal opinion) we need to give evidence from the Quran and on the subject of witnessing Ramadan, please correct me if I am wrong, the verses below confirm that it?s not only eyes and ears that bear witness, but even one?s skin bears witness.

4120 At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their SKINs will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.

4121 They will say to their SKINs "Why bear ye witness against us?" They will say "(Allah) hath given us speech,- (He) Who giveth speech to everything He created you for the first time, and unto Him were ye to return.

4122 "Ye did not seek to hide yourselves, lest your hearing, your sight, and your SKINs should bear witness against you! But ye did think that Allah knew not many of the things that ye used to do!

I would therefore ask Ayman again Do you still think there is no obligation on the blind to fast and, if so, where is the evidence for that

All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

"In 2228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month. However, in verse 654, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'. "

You have an eloquent reply to your query above, posted by Nun de plume , which is a great help for someone like me, I am sure you would learn a lot with the post exchange.Thanks Nun.

"When I read this verse for meaning the first time I noticed that these '4 ashhur' should be consecutive, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Then in verse 95, the god confirms that these '4 ashhur' are the 4 hurum. How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum?" (If you are not following the sunni traditionalist calendar as it is, you believe it is different in some way, then please share your opinion about that, i.e. which are the 4 hurum in your opinion.)
"Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?"

I repeat what I wrote earlier
I am truly in search of the truth about the sacred months and that's what we need to work out and the reason I'm looking for the best calculation is this Talking about the age of Nuh (Noah) both the words for year are used in this verse but the count together is coming up to a thousand less fifty years, and no one can possibly live for that long.
So here is the clue if we were to combine the calculation of "3am" and "sana(t)" it would be unrealistically long 2914

Salaam Ayman,

If you read my post you would notice that I do not have an inflated ego and I do not feel ashamed to acknowledge something worth considering.
The two Models for counting I mentioned means two types of calculations and it needs lots of brilliant minds here to work it out, it is not as simple as you think.
When it comes to celebrating the month of fasting your mode of calculation is NOT ACCEPTABLE as the Night of Measure was the birth of an event and for that we need fixed term calculations using the phases of the moon --- lunar calendar if that's what you call it.
Please do pay a lot of attention to my last post to Umm Tariq and then say thanks to me.

WE CAN NOT TAKE ONE VIEW BUT NEED BACKING FROM THE QUR'AN FOR ALL OUR STUDIES and only with combined efforts can we resolve this.
Pay attention to this 1812 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!

I would invite you to join hands with everyone to work out the best calculation for the term.

peace

ayman

Peace Umm Tariq,

Have you personally been counting the full moons yourself since you came to this conclusion about 'shahr' and noticed this happened during your count? I intend to start this myself, it would be the first time I ever did such in my life, now there's a good reason to try it.

Yes, we do have to count only 12 and skip counting the occasional 13th full-moon as per 936. This year's solar cycle was precisely such cycle that had 13 full-moons between the two summer solstice. So I counted 12 and I skipped counting the 13th full-moon on June 18th

Summer Solstice 2007

JUNE 30, 2007 (scorching full moon 2007)
JULY 30, 2007
AUG 28, 2007
SEPT 26, 2007
OCT 26, 2007
NOV 24, 2007
DEC 24, 2007
JAN 22, 2008
FEB 21, 2008
MAR 21, 2008
APR 20, 2008
MAY 20, 2008
JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip)
Summer Solstice 2008
JULY 17, 2008 (scorching full moon 200

Therefore, the marker, the "scorching full moon", became the one that we witnessed on July 17th. This also automatically adjusted the full-moon cycle so that it is in sync with the seasons. Please note that this method is independent of any manmade calendar and thus can be used in conjunction with any calendar (for example, the Gregorian calendar as above or even the so-called Islamic calendar) or without any calendar.

Peace,

Ayman

afridi220

The Islamic Calendar
There are only few sources about the calendars used on the Arabian peninsula in pre-Islamic times, especially for central Arabia. In what is now Yemen probably a modified Julian calendar was in use with a year beginning in April. For central Arabia it is known that there were four "forbidden" months in which warfare had to cease, for instance. Sure 9 of the Qur'an states that the number of months in a year is twelve and rejects any "shifting" (nasi). The word nasi does not necessarily designate the insertion of an additional month, which would suggest the existence of lunisolar calendars in pre-Islamic Arabia. But probably only religious feasts were moved from one month to the next according to certain circumstances.

The Islamic calendar as it is used today as well as the counting of years according to the Hijra era were introduced at the latest during the reign of caliph 'Umar (caliph 634-644). Already slightely more than a hundred years later, in about 750 Islamic territory strechted from Andalusia in the west to Samarkand in Central Asia in the east. Thus, the calendar being based on moon observations dates could (and can) differ in various areas.

In the 9th century CE science reached a high level in the caliphate, especially during the reign of al-Ma'mun (r. 813-833). For astronomical almanacs schematic versions of the calendar were created, which were used in comprehensive tables and for chronological purposes.

Internal Structure and Era
The year consists of twelve months strictly bound to lunar phases. Names and order of the months are shown in the follwing table(1).

No. Name
1 Muharram
2 Safar
3 Rabi al-Awwal
4 Rabi al-Akhir
5 Djumada 'l-Ula
6 Djumada 'l-Akhira
7 Radjab
8 Shaban
9 Ramadan
10 Shawwal
11 Dhu 'l-Kada
12 Dhu 'l-Hidjdja

The beginning of each month was determined by the first visibility of the crescent after new moon(2). The visibility of the crescent depends on the observer's location as well as on the meteorological conditions. Therefore, months of as many as 31 days occurred although a synodic month has a length of about 29.5 days only. An exception is the 9th month of the Islamic year, Ramadan, which is considered as ending with the 30th day latest, presumably because of the strict fasting to be observed during daylight. Despite the uncertainty about the actual last day of a month, days were sometimes counted backwards from a supposed final day.

The era of the Islamic calendar is taken by some to be 15 July 622 CE, others put it one day later on 16 July 622 CE (Julian). It commemorates the move of Muhammad from Mekka to Medina (then called Yathrib), the Hijra. The exact date of the Hijra has not been found so far, but it took place probably about two months later. As for the difference of one day between the two eras in use, that has only theoretical importance calendrically, the beginning of each month being determined by observation.

Schematic Version
A great disadvantage for computations is the observation-based beginning of each month. Future events cannot be dated exactly as the visibility conditions for a certain day and location are not known in advance. Thus, a regular calendar with fixed month lengths and intercalation rules was required especially for astronomical calculations.

To tackle this problem a schematic version of the Islamic calendar was developed with the months having lengths of alternating 30 and 29 days, beginning with the first month Muharram. The last month Dhu 'l-Hidjdja was given a length of 29 days in common years or 30 days in leap years.

No. Name Length
Common
Year Leap
Year
1 Muharram 30 30
2 Safar 29 29
3 Rabi al-Awwal 30 30
4 Rabi al-Akhir 29 29
5 Djumada 'l-Ula 30 30
6 Djumada 'l-Akhira 29 29
7 Radjab 30 30
8 Shaban 29 29
9 Ramadan 30 30
10 Shawwal 29 29
11 Dhu 'l-Kada 30 30
12 Dhu 'l-Hidjdja 29 30

To keep the calendar aligned with the moon's phases 11 years of a 30-year-cycle were made leap years. These were the 2nd, 5th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 18th, 21st, 24th, 26th, and 29th years(3). The era of this calendar is 16 July 622 (Because days begin with sunset, that moment falls on 15 July 622 already.) Sometimes the counting was begun a day earlier.

Holidays and Feast Days
Canonical holidays are 'Id al-'Adha on 10 Dhu 'l-Hidjdja as well as the end of the fasting period ('Id al-fitr) beginning on 1 Shawwal and lasting three or four days. Besides these two holidays, further feast and remembrance days are observed.

During the whole month Ramadan is strict fasting is observed between sunrise and sunset. During daylight eating and drinking is prohibited. Exceptios are made, e. g. for expecting women, nursing mothers, the ill or old who would have to fast later or donate food for the poor etc. instead.

To Shiite muslims the month Muharram is a mourning period, especially 10 Muharram. This remembers the martyr death of Husain in the battle of Kerbela on 10 Muharram in the year 61 of the Hijra.
During the first years of Islam, still before the hijra, 10 Muharram was assigned to be a fasting day because Moses was said to have fasted on that day. However, after the introduction of Ramadan as a fasting month fasting on 10 Muharram was no more obligatory.

12 Rabi al-Awwal, called Mawlid, is celebrated as the prophet Muhammad's birthday and is an official holiday in many countries. The actual origin is Muhammad's death in the year 11 of the Hijra (first half of June 632 Julian). It was not until the reign of the Fatimid dynasty in the Middle Ages that it was started to be celebrated as a feast day in Egypt. Therefore in some areas 12 Rabi al-Awwal is considered a day of mourning until today.

One of the last five odd nights of Ramadan , most often that of 27 Ramadan, is Lailat al-Qadr in which the first reveal of the Qur'an is said to have taken place.

The full moon night of Shaban (i. e. the one of 15 Shaban) is Lailat al-Bara'at in which sins are pardoned and destiny determined. The night of 27 Radjab is celebrated as the night of the prophet's heavenly journey (Lailat al-Mi'raj).

Tax Year in the Ottoman Empire
Many difficulties arose because the calendar was completely independent from the seasons. Islamic New Year slowly moved backwards through the seasons 11 days a year, while harvest was only possible in late summer and autumn. In the Ottoman Empire, therefore, the tax year was oriented on the Julian calendar, beginning on 1 September until 1677, when the beginning of the tax year was moved to 1 March. However, the salaries were paid according to the Islamic year, which led to difficulties in bookkeeping. In addition, the different lengths of the years required the ommission of a tax year every 33 Julian years, so as to give tax year and Islamic year roughly the same number. In 1872 documents for the following tax year had been printed with the tax year number 1288 instead of the correct 1289, and subsequently the decision was made to count tax years in an unbroken sequence from then on. Since then Islamic year and tax year did not correspond anymore. In 1917 the beginning of the tax year was shifted to 1 March of the Gregorian calendar. Thus, tax year 1333 began on 1 March 1917. The last tax year following this reckoning was 1341, and on 1 January 1926 the Gregorian calendar was introduced.

peace

unknownuser

Peace Umm Tariq,

I appreciate your post. I understand what you mean about how the starting dates vary and which will vary the whole time waiting, this happens whether one uses 'full moon' or 'month. However, notice that I was referring to 'the minimum' in both verses. I was looking at the consistency of the two verses. In the minimum, if you translate 654 using 'full moon' then it will automatically equal the time in 2228, in the minimum. You see what I am talking about? If you use 'month' then, in the minimum, they do not agree and that's what for me, gives weight to 'full moon'.

654 gives the maximum (3 months) which includes the minimum case.

2228 And the divorced wait with themselves 3 menstrual cycles

3 menstrual cycles can vary between 2 - 3 months.

654?so their term/count (is) three months

3 months is the maximum for 3 menstrual cycles. No contradiction.

Yeah, I just noticed something, you only put possible dates based on the menstrual cycles which is a clear marker. If we do the same for the women in 654 using 'month' (this is my contention) then this is what we get

Full Moon/Month Dates 2008
September 15 415 A.M.
October 14 304 P.M.
November 13 1219 A.M.
December 12 1038 A.M.

If divorce is on Oct. 13 she waits for 3 'months', until Jan. 13th.

If divorce is on Oct. 13 she waits for 3 'full moons' until Dec. 12th (2 'months' approx.)

If divorce is on Oct 13 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 2 months

If divorce is on Sept. 16 she waits for 3 'full moons' (just shy of 3 months total)\

If divorce is on Sept 16 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 3 months maximum

You see the agreement between menstrual cycles calculations and full moons as opposed to using 'months' outright? In the minimum case for 'months', 3 months is 3 months.

Do you see that 654 3 months covers any 3 menstrual cycles?

I don't see the difference in how women past menopause read the above since it's for whoever's husband has died. They of course can't count by menstrual cycles but they can count by 'full moons' as well which as you can see would come out, in the minimum to be 3 'months' and 10 days. Using the dates example helped bring more clarity to the issue.

The verse says wait 4 months and 10 days.

If they go outside each night/day to see 4 full moons they can be 28 days too early.

That is disobedience to a commandment of God.

Too many inconsistencies with full moons -- what are 4 sacred full moons?

936 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture, (on) the day He created the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, from it four (are) sacred...

Samia

Salaam belal

Would you agree, based on the verses I provided, that we can not say that Sana means Drought?
Also, the verse you quoted does not have to be Drought, but could mean other meanings. It could mean that for years God punished the people of Pharos.

It's just not the style of the qur'aan which usually tells us what the punishment was, not how long it lasted.

Agree based on verses 15-26, 28. But in these verses The Mud could be Red Mud as well; don't you agree? thus, The meaning I refered to could be right, if we take the root word for Hamma'a into consideration. The Root word is "Hamia", which means HOT.

Hama' and Haamia are two different words that do not share the same root. The first has the root (Ha Meem hamza), which generlly means black/black mud; the second has the root (Ha Meem Ya), which means hot.
In verses 15-26,28, it is clear that "hama' '" is black clay...from which is derived the noun adam dust, crust of the earth; also a black/dark person.

siki

We can count days through sunrise and its setting, we can count months with either cresent moon or full? but i guess full would be better to start counting a month because we cant miss it. NOw my question is how do we count years?

if we ignore the Red moon , then there is no natural marker available. Moreover the ayah saying, "count of the month is twelve" is precisely there for this purpose, so that we can start counting from a natural celestial marker and ignore the 13th if it is there to auto correct, along the sun cycle, makes sense to me.

siki

ayman

Peace Siki,

We can count days through sunrise and its setting, we can count months with either cresent moon or full? but i guess full would be better to start counting a month because we cant miss it. NOw my question is how do we count years?

17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night we have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and we have explained all things in detail.

The ONLY possible way to use "night and day" to know the number of years is to look at the interval between two consecutive shortest daylight/longest night (winter solstice) or two consecutive shortest night/longest daylight (summer solstice).

Of course, the etymology of "shahr ramadan" points to the scorching full-moon after the summer solstice.

Peace,

Ayman

siki

He does not need our fastings, it is for us , it probably does something good to our bodies, so

He wants us to fast from the first light , which is probably the earliest possible marker, to the night(dusk) last possible marker, He could have easily prescribed , From sun rise to sun set, but he doesnt, why? May be he wants our bodies to toil through a longer duration to extract optimum benifit.

If long duration is the criteria then , fasting in summer solictise makes sense, Rotating through winters, a fast is hardly a fast , infact a winter day fast is like not fasting at all ,

The guys down under can fast during their Red moon for achieving the prescribed benifit, It does not have to be in synch with we living up here,

Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. And indirectly conveying that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.

And most likely it is days not a month, cause the command uses the word days , not month, had it been a whole full month , He would not have used the word days.

siki

Samia

Moreover the Ayah , saying , who so ever witnesses it shall... is clearly indicating/saying, .... when your time comes do it, and what is that time? summer , longest days , THe toughest time of the year to Cycle our mortal bodies. and it clearly indicates that they should not do it with us , because it will be their winters.

This is a good remark