Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Hi,
Plume wrote
What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...Night is actually measured accurately by seamen as
Nautical Twilight Starts/Ends
Nautical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon, when bright stars are still visible in clear weather and the horizon is becoming visible. It is too dark to do outdoor activities without additional lighting.thx.
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Peace Ayman,
If you are not defending the traditional timing then how is your understanding different from the traditional one?
I'm still working on it.
It is a contradiction to say "I stayed up only all last night" and then say "I stayed up all night in the month of September". Remember we are talking about TWO SEPARATE statements not one statement like you made up in order to make it work. You are intelligent enough to make up one statement to easily make it work and eliminate the contradiction. Don't you think that the god is certainly far more intelligent than you?
God gave us intelligence and we know days/nights = months = years.
4615 And We have enjoined on man to be dutiful and kind to his parents. His mother bears him with hardship and she brings him forth with hardship, and the bearing of him, and the weaning of him is thirty (30) months, till when he attains full strength and reaches forty years...
Night is actually measured accurately by seamen as
Nautical Twilight Starts/Ends
Nautical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon, when bright stars are still visible in clear weather and the horizon is becoming visible. It is too dark to do outdoor activities without additional lighting.thx.
Hi Sibute --
I go by Quran definition of night not seaman (I was one at age 16 btw) how dark is the night.
20130 So bear patiently what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give you.
See thread...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596792.msg177611#msg177611
Thanks
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Hi Plume,
20130 So bear patiently what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give .
Thank you for this wonderful quote plume but my point is night is not equal to sunrise - sunset but from the quote above it it clearly distincts between rising, setting and the hours of the night.
All scientific discoveries will relate back to the quran whether it be a seamen,scientist or anyone who seeks knowledge of this universe.
i can see that you are well verse with quotes from the quran and thats good but one should also refelect on how people with knowledge should also be sought after when it conforms with what quran is telling us.Thank you.
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Hi Sibute,
You are welcome -- I read it as night being exactly from sunset to dawn.
911-3
And by the sun and its brightness;
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun);http//i34.tinypic.com/2qun98y.jpg
Peace
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Peace Anthony,
No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.
Do you face a Sacred Temple "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.
No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2185 as meaningless.
Peace,
Ayman
Let me ask you in other words
Has it been announed that it is time to fast? wow
Did you witness the month/moon ( of " Ramadan) ? yes, I believe you surely did.
And are they fasting in Meccah? ( celebrating Ramadan fast ) ?
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Hi Sibute,
You are welcome -- I read it as night being exactly from sunset to dawn.
911-3
And by the sun and its brightness;
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun);Well I guess when the sun is concealed just below the horizon ( zero degrees) with its light beaming to the observer like you during sunset it must mean you break your fast??
thank you.
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WHY THE MOON CHANGES COLOR
http//wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color
http//home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/03aug_dreamyeclipse.htm
Godbless,
Anwar
I'll see if i can find some more articles, from more scientific sources. -
Well I guess when the sun is concealed just below the horizon ( zero degrees) with its light beaming to the observer like you during sunset it must mean you break your fast??
thank you.
If the sun is concealed below the horizon then its direct light cannot beam the observer and I break my fast.
Likewise when it is unconcealed at dawn and its white thread is beaming at the observer I start my fast.
Thank you.
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WHY THE MOON CHANGES COLOR
http//wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color
http//home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/Quote from above
When the moon is near the horizon, the moonlight must pass through much more atmosphere than when the moon is directly overhead. By the time the moonlight reaches your eyes, the blue, green, and purple pieces of visible light have been scattered away by air molecules. That's why you only see yellow, orange, or red.
It is a scientific fact that the full-moon around the summer solstice takes the lowest path accross the horizon. This is why it appears more vivid red than any other full-moon. This fact was explained in my article and people can easily confirm it.
Peace,
Ayman
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And you shall face that direction when you pray...and that should be were you plan to go...
Where in the reading does it say we must face "Mecca" when we pray? And where does the reading say we must go to "Mecca" to make pilgrimage?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Where in the reading does it say we must face "Mecca" when we pray? And where does the reading say we must go to "Mecca" to make pilgrimage?
Peace,
Ahmad
Were is the House of God at? The place of Abraham??? I thought it wa s mecca...
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Peace be upon all,
Br. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply. As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading. I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons. However, I do have one question for you about the first part of the verse 3412 "And for Sulaiman the wind ghuduwuhaa shahr and rawaahuhaa shahr..." If one translates it using 'month' then the translations that I've seen have to add the word 'journey' which is not mentioned in the verse as far as I see. If you translate it as 'full moon' then how do you understand this verse? ??? I do not know a whole lot about the science of wind and all so maybe I am missing something, I don't know. However, I clearly do not like and do not accept when translators add words to seemingly make a verse more complete and clear as if it wasn't already!
The next points that I would like to share with everyone is what I also see as contradictions involving the meaning 'month' for shahr in the reading. These points are also what really convinces me that 'full moon' is the correct meaning.
The 4 verses in question are 2184, 2228, 92 and 937. In 2184, I believe that the word shaheda lends a lot of weight that shahr means full moon which is something that can be witnessed/ seen. Samia, I also checked about the usage of shaheda in the book and I agree that in this verse it has to do with witnessing/ seeing something 'physically'. It hasn't made any sense to me 'witness/ see a month'. Looking at the Saudi sunni translations that I have with me, they add the words 'the new moon of' before 'month'. This is another indication to me that something is not right since the god uses the word for 'new moon', as they understand it, in the reading 'ahillah' but He is not using it in this verse, why? However, if the meaning is full moon then there is no need to 'perfect' it.
In 2228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month. However, in verse 654, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'.
In 92, the god tells those who ascribe partners with Him that they can go through the earth 4 ashhur. When I was a sunni following the lunar calendar as they do, they teach that the '4 forbidden months' are Thul Qa'dah, Thul Hijjah, Muharram, 11th, 12th and 1st month respectively and then Rajab the 9th month. When I read this verse for meaning the first time I noticed that these '4 ashhur' should be consecutive, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Then in verse 95, the god confirms that these '4 ashhur' are the 4 hurum. How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum? Lastly on this point, the 4 ashhur hurum is either '4 months' or '4 full moons' which is equivalent to 3 months time. The 4 seasons lasts for about 3 months each correct?
Regarding verse 937, right after the god tells us about the count of 12 ashhur, it seems to me that if the people at the time of the revelation of the book were going by counting full moons, and there is sometimes this extra 13th full moon the god tells us that to sometimes count it and sometimes not is an increase in disbelief. Correct me if I am wrong but what I also get out of this is that when people decide to use a certain 'calendar' per se, at least in our times, they don't make it sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since it's a 'calendar' that is used to regulate the systems we follow. The traditional sunni lunar calendar stays 12 months, by some names that I don't know where they came from and doesn't even recognize the seasons as meaning anything related to the great reading which is a big crime. Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?
These are just my observations regarding this issue and I am eager for anyone to reply. I want to further my understanding and be certain with whatever conclusion I come to based on strong evidence from the god's book.
Umm Tariq
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2185 The Quran was sent down in the red moon, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge . So one should fast the entire moon, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever is ill or on a journey, then finish on different days . God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship ; and so that you may complete the term , and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
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Salam everyone
As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading. I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons.
If You follow the Quran, you will be calculating each Month period using the Moon Cycle. But if you try to use Ayman way, which is not the Quran way, you will be confused.
The Moon Cycle is from the Waxing Crescent stages to the Next Waxing Crescent stage, which is EQUAL IN NUMBER of DAYS TO
1- Full Moon Stage to the next Full Moon Stage;
2- from Wening Crescent to the next Wening CrescentNow why are you so confused like Ayman in number of days per Moon Month?
The Number of Days will be the same if you were Honest when calculating; but Ayman is trying to Cheat Allah in Fasting by discounting the Month Days to 10 days.
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Peace be upon all,
Br. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply.
28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons.How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum? Lastly on this point, the 4 ashhur hurum is either '4 months' or '4 full moons' which is equivalent to 3 months time. The 4 seasons lasts for about 3 months each correct?
These are just my observations regarding this issue and I am eager for anyone to reply. I want to further my understanding and be certain with whatever conclusion I come to based on strong evidence from the god's book.
Umm Tariq
Salaam Umm Tariq
As you may have read I bowed out of this debate about hot Ramadan because I am 100% convinced that the solstice moon has no bearing on ascertaining the month of fasting.
However you have raised some very interesting questions and I too have been thinking on those points so I am going to put here my understanding. It could be completely flawed but, in the interest of finding out the truth, we must all let go off our egos and work together.
2184. (Fasting) for a fixed number of days; ...
Please note that here the name of the month of Ramadan is not mentioned.Please note that in this verse word Ramadan is mentioned and that this is the time of the great event when the Qur?an was sent down as guidance for mankind.
This was the great event for the whole mankind, it was hot in northern hemisphere and cold in the southern hemisphere that is when the night of degree originated. It happened therefore that this single event fell in different seasons in different parts of the world. We cannot make it a seasonal event related to Arabia only as that would mean the event should take place again and again and again for rest of the world. No it was one time for the whole world and if we make it a summer event, expecting everyone to celebrate it only in the summer, it becomes a local event not a universal one.We sent it down during a Blessed NIGHT for We (ever) wish to warn (against Evil).
The moon (not full) is used to calculate events a timing device used to mark fixed periods of time 2189However it's possible that the puzzle could be solved if we reflect on how Ayman concludes his article http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htmby .....? Although we answered several questions, as usual many questions remain. For example, what is the difference, if any, between "3am" and "sana(t)"? Both are equally translated as "year" but this seems unlikely because of 2914 where both are used.?
Talking about the age of Nuh (Noah) both the words for year are used in this verse but the count together is coming up to a thousand less fifty years, and no one can possibly live for that long.
So here is the clue if we were to combine the calculation of "3am" and "sana(t)" it would be unrealistically long 2914Could the term "sana(t)" be based on the summer solstice calculation as in Ayman;s formula? ???
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Regarding verse 937, right after the god tells us about the count of 12 ashhur, it seems to me that if the people at the time of the revelation of the book were going by counting full moons, and there is sometimes this extra 13th full moon the god tells us that to sometimes count it and sometimes not is an increase in disbelief. Correct me if I am wrong but what I also get out of this is that when people decide to use a certain 'calendar' per se, at least in our times, they don't make it sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since it's a 'calendar' that is used to regulate the systems we follow.
Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?
Cont
Now in the next few verses we see the moon and the sun used together to know the count of years, in other words luni-solar years and ?Sana(t)? is used for year and it?s referring to seasonal events seeking bounty harvest etc and also for the computation of the year
105 , 1712, seeking bounty ie harvest.1247 He said "You will plant regularly for seven years, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
For planting here sana(t) is used1248 Then there will come seven after that which are severe and which will consume all that you plant except for what you have stored."
Here neither 3am nor sana(t)"is used, just seven. Could the ? seven? here mean the combination of both ???1249 Then after that will come a year in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again
Now for a year 3am is used and here its not about harvesting or sacred months but the whole year ie 3am.From the above observations I understand that "sana(t)" is used when referring to seasonal events ie harvest or restricted months and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon so in this type of calculations the summer solstice may be used As restricted/sacred month was observed by the pagans too. I wonder if sana(t) is the year which was used when it was divided into four/six season were used in a year prior to Islam.
And 3am is the years which take into account of seasonal as well as fixed term and making the total number of months 12.To get the desired result one could adjust sana(t) into 3am so that it adds up to twelve months.Now the mind-blowing thing is to work out how to arrive at 12 as the number of months using both calculations to get the resulting year ? 3am?. But how do we use both counts for seasonal events like sacred month and fix term count which marks the event like a Blessed NIGHT linked to fasting to arrive at 12 monhts .
If we study the verse 936. we see 3am or sana(t)" is not use just twelve months and we assume its same way of counting months that we arrive at twelve to make 3am or is it combination of two ???
I believe The verse 937 is not about sacred months; that's just what the translator assumed. I believe its simply talking of postponement or delay of additional months and, if we use Ayman?s summer solstice count then count up to twelve full moons and disregard the 13th. This may amount to disbelief as the year thus becomes un-Quranic so, yes we may include his calculation but only for seasonal events.Lets reflect on
kamilayni 2233 The mothers shall give suck to their offspring for two whole YEARS, if the father desires to complete the term
3114 AAamayni -- mother bear him, and in YEARS twain was his weaning
sineena AAadadan 1811 Then We draw (a veil) over their ears, for a number of YEARS, in the Cave, (so that they heard not)
Amadan -1812 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!
Sineena 1825 So they stayed in their Cave three hundred YEARS, and (some) add nine (more)Again, as I always say, there is such brain pool here; if only we could use it to benefit our deen and just prick a little pin into our inflated egos.
peace
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Peace,
Ayman what are you cues for proving that the Arabs of that day used scorching/very hot to refer to the color yellow or organge. (red seems to be reserved for the lunar eclipse time only.)If I sa a moon in constant heat/scorching, why would that automatically mean an orange moon? Do we have any other uses orangish or yellowing colors being refered to as ramadan in Older Arabic sources? When thes sun rises red/orange we don't have any reference to it being hotter. Do we say that the horizon is hot or on fire before sunrise or after sunset? I see you combining the word Ramadan with the English use of blaze or blazen. But whereas blaze is used from tempers, to lively colors, to fire, to heat, can Ramid be used in this way? I will be double checking as well. Also how could we fast during this constantly blazing moon if we are commanded to fast during daylight hours, and not at night?
Godbless,
AnwarGodbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Ayman what are you cues for proving that the Arabs of that day used scorching/very hot to refer to the color yellow or organge. (red seems to be reserved for the lunar eclipse time only.)
Peace Progod
Good point; please let me remind you of a verse where God was refering to something similar to what you say; please note that he did not use the Word Rammadan(
Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Blazen (Scorching) water. And he found near it a people. We said "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (18-86)
Please note the Frequancy of the Words in the Quran that were used to refer to Hot (or scorching).
peace
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Peace Anwar,
Ayman what are you cues for proving that the Arabs of that day used scorching/very hot to refer to the color yellow or organge. (red seems to be reserved for the lunar eclipse time only.)If I sa a moon in constant heat/scorching, why would that automatically mean an orange moon? Do we have any other uses orangish or yellowing colors being refered to as ramadan in Older Arabic sources? When thes sun rises red/orange we don't have any reference to it being hotter. Do we say that the horizon is hot or on fire before sunrise or after sunset? I see you combining the word Ramadan with the English use of blaze or blazen. But whereas blaze is used from tempers, to lively colors, to fire, to heat, can Ramid be used in this way?
I think that the word "scorching/ramadan" seems to be kind of like "red hot" in English. Thus, we hear in the Classical Arabic dictionaries the word used to describe what is commonly known as "pink eye" or "red eye" in English
Clearly, the above is a reference to the color and how the eye appears and not literally to the eye being blazing or buring or hot.
The same concept is used in relation to a woman whose thighs are rubbed
Clearly, here it is again about the woman's thighs appearing red from the rubbing.
I will be double checking as well.
Thank you. The more checking the better.
Also how could we fast during this constantly blazing moon if we are commanded to fast during daylight hours, and not at night?
Exactly, we are told afterwards to fast during daylight hours and the length of the fast (complete count of a few days). So the initial information about "shahr ramadan" is simply the marker and not a command to fast an entire lunar month (30 or 29 days and nights), otherwise the info about when and how many days to fast would be redundant or contradicting this command.
As a side note, there is also additional info in Classical Arabic dictionaries that link "ramadan" specifically to hunting. This is significant given the fact that the restricted period is about hunting
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This inhumane way of hunting would have a significant negative impact on the preservation of wild life and would very quickly decimate it. Apparently, the Arabs were using this inhumane way of hunting during this period of hunting restriction.
594
Notice how 594 says "your hands" would reach the wild game. This means that it was an easy catch. The only time a prey is normally such an easy catch is when it is exhausted and especially when it is young. This is far more likely to happen during the time of extreme heat when young animals who have recently been born are already suffering from the heat.
Peace,
Ayman