Is there a single Muslim on this whole website?
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Need to bear in mind what gets thrown into hell, the sin or the sinner? God does does not want to throw us into hell but knows our hearts well and those who choose to turn to God he helps them by guiding them or maybe just forgiving them. If you think about this life has been designed to get us into the gardens of paradise. 1 good deed is worth 10 bad ones. Our suffering can be another oppurtunity to turn to God. Anyone who has been given wealth and spends instead of hoarding counts as good, smiling and saying nice things are good deeds, looking after your parents is good deeds, sharing food with friends is a good deed, helping animals is a good deed.
I find it strange that for simply a few years of living on earth and doing some good deeds humans are offered an eternity of bliss in paradise. Is that just? Is that fair?
Which is exactly why this framework concept or "fairness" and "this is justice" is not accurate, it doesn't fit, and it also isn't what the Qur'an really says about the matter.
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You do realise that you would be breaking God's law which may land you in a bad place, don't you? If we are dealt unfairly by humans in this life it may actually help to remove some of our sins since God will correct the injustice on the Day of Judgement.
Need to remember on the Day of Judgement all relationships will be broken.
I think it is alright to try to survive by whatever means necessary in order to continue if possible to do good to counteract evilness.
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Because he was chosen as a prophet from when he was born. If it weren't for that he may have had to face justice. Also bear in mind that Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land of Israel. Maybe that was part of his punishment?
God is strict. Justice will either be done here or on the Day of Judgement. The person who was killed had rights. I believe on the Day of Judgment he will be able to ask for justice. God may simply give him entry to heaven and a few extra palaces so he feels that he has been dealt with justly.
So are you under the impression God owes us something?
I don't think that God carries on punishment like that, and God is easy in giving forgiveness and can give it completely in an instant. I don't think him being a Prophet made it only alright for him to run, but that anyone should behave like a human and try to survive if they can and defend their life while they have it. Also, people who are so strict with their idea of justice are threatening and can not be trusted really. Perhaps there is more honor among thieves.
Consider that all the Prophets were generally on the wrong side of the law, they were breaking the peace and then even killing many more in war, and were generally considered terrorists and villains by their opposition. Sometimes it is necessary to break the law, overthrow governments, kill people, and do whatever it takes to survive, while keeping in mind God is the decider now and later and always.
It was Satan who didn't ask for forgiveness and took the aspect of judgment more than seeking mercy.
So I don't believe one should give up their ability to survive more in the world and potentially do more good should be given up for any reason. In the case of Joseph, he was not given a death sentence but went to jail for protection from women, where he could focus and be safe.
Abraham was a terrorist as well, he reviled the religion of the people and destroyed their property. He was on the wrong side of the law, but the right side of Allah.
So we must be willing to do what it takes to get the ultimate pleasure and avoid trouble and pain.
Abraham nearly killed his own son.
If you think this life has been about justice really, I think that isn't really the message of the Qur'an.
No doubt it promotes goodness and justice, but the real important factor is that Allah can do anything and we can ask Allah for forgiveness and help and should survive in order to do as much good as we can and have no need to hand ourselves over to be harmed by people.
Did Muhammed just lay down and let the Polytheists just trample all over him? No, he was instructed to fight for his life, and the Muslims went and cut their throats in defense, and they were the bad guys to the Polytheists and also breaking the law of the Polytheists and offending the authorities.
Regardless of all that, too much of a slant on justice makes a person untrustworthy. Musa was trustworthy, the one guy murdered a young boy in-front of him and Musa didn't report him to the authorities or try to harm him afterwords.
My utterly corrupt moral compass comes from the Qur'an, the focus is on survival and the best results. Avoid trouble as much as possible, and never put yourself in the hands of the enemy, and the enemy is anyone who will harm you, trap you, punish you, condemn you, etc. The greatest potential enemy of all is God, God can not be outrun or defeated, so we ask God to help us and be on our side and have mercy, and we try not to do wrong by God. Killing a person in defense of yourself or another is not wrong though, but standing by and letting injustice occur is wrong. God is the Witness and God is the Judge.
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I think it is alright to try to survive by whatever means necessary in order to continue if possible to do good to counteract evilness.
The keywords are "I think". Adam and Eve thought it would be OK to eat the fruit. The brothers of Joseph thought it would be OK to throw their brother down a well and make up for it by doing righteousness later on. The pagans think/thought it was OK to make partners with God since these partners could intercede for them or could be used to communicate their wishes to God.
Maybe according to you it's OK to rob the rich and give to the poor? Maybe it's OK to break your fast whenever you feel like it or maybe not fast at all and instead go and do some good by helping the needy?
Please do think and wake up.
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So are you under the impression God owes us something?
Not sure what you're referring to here so apologies if I have misunderstood. Yes God owes us something. God is our Creator. He owes us food, clothing, brains so we can understand, guidance, mercy and forgiveness if we repent. He made us to live in a world where we are dependent on him. He didn't make us independent so that we can make our food from nothing. He made us so that we have the ability to learn, to have a wondrous brain which has a huge capacity to learn and take things in. God needs to provide the means to utilise this and all the other senses he has given us. God hasn't made us perfect which is one of the properties we can use to distinguish between us and him, God is perfect we are not. If we make a mistake I think it's fair to have the oppurtunity to repent. Some people were always going to be evil and lie and make up false things in the name of God. God owes us guidance incase we forget and incase the revelations become corrupted by other humans.
All of creation is dependent on God, that's how they have been created, God says in the Quran it's up to him to provide sustance to all living things. Those who accept it and obey, God is pleased with them.
Can we demand anything from? I don't think so. Can we ask and pray for it in a humble manner, by all means.
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I don't think him being a Prophet made it only alright for him to run, but that anyone should behave like a human and try to survive if they can and defend their life while they have it.
You should read the example of Cain and Abel. Abel said go ahead and kill me it's not for me to retaliate, maybe some of my sins will removed and given to you.
In the battles of the prophet Mohammed the believers are warned never to turn their backs to the enemies unless it be a stratagem of war. If any did so they would die in the end anyway and face God at some point.
So as a believer it is your duty to turn yourself in if you have done a crime. The Quran tells us that when we know that we are on the right side of the law we demand justice, but when we are on the wrong side of it we try to escape it. This is wrong. You can't escape from justice.
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Consider that all the Prophets were generally on the wrong side of the law, they were breaking the peace and then even killing many more in war, and were generally considered terrorists and villains by their opposition. Sometimes it is necessary to break the law, overthrow governments, kill people, and do whatever it takes to survive, while keeping in mind God is the decider now and later and always.
Which prophets were on the wrong side of the law?
The prophet Mohammed was exercising his right to pray freely and call people to a new religion (which is in fact the old original religion but the pagans considered it new). He did not force anyone. The pagans didn't like it when they saw people converting. Maybe they were scared of losing their power or felt insulted/offended that their cherished religion the religions of their fathers was going to disappear. It was the pagans who attacked the prophet and his followers. It was they who declared war. The Quran clearly says that the believers can only fight those who fight them. The believers cannot go and force religion on people even if they win in a battle and take over a place.
I'm not sure how you get the idea that it's "Sometimes it is necessary to break the law, overthrow governments, kill people, and do whatever it takes to survive". Seems like you haven't read the Quran properly.
We cannot overthrow a government. If the government orders the army to kill you, you have a right to defend yourself or leave the country. Leaving the country is actually best since what's the point in fighting against a group of people who don't want you. God will provide a better place.
So it's never necessary to break the law or be the first to attack people. If we don't like the law then we have the choice to leave. There is no need to kill people. All disputes can be handled peacefully. If someone wants your shirt, give them your cloak as well.
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Abraham was a terrorist as well, he reviled the religion of the people and destroyed their property. He was on the wrong side of the law, but the right side of Allah.
Abraham was not a terrorist. He did not frighten others. He was alone, he could do no harm to anyone. He offended the pagans, that is not terrorism.
The law that Abraham broke was that he damaged someone else's property. He was young and if justice were to be served he should have been made to pay for the damages. The prophet Mohammed was ordered to only defend himself if he was attacked. He never broke any law.
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The greatest potential enemy of all is God, God can not be outrun or defeated, so we ask God to help us and be on our side and have mercy, and we try not to do wrong by God. Killing a person in defense of yourself or another is not wrong though, but standing by and letting injustice occur is wrong. God is the Witness and God is the Judge.
It's just wrong of you to say that God is the greatest potential enemy of all.
When Moses saw that his fellow man was having a dispute he should have found out what the dispute was over. If his fellow man had said that his brother or somone close in his family had been murdered by the Egyptian then Moses should have taken him to the authorities. There is no reason at all for him to strike and kill him.
God has given his law to us, we are expected to follow it and administer it even if it goes against us.
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The keywords are "I think". Adam and Eve thought it would be OK to eat the fruit. The brothers of Joseph thought it would be OK to throw their brother down a well and make up for it by doing righteousness later on. The pagans think/thought it was OK to make partners with God since these partners could intercede for them or could be used to communicate their wishes to God.
Maybe according to you it's OK to rob the rich and give to the poor? Maybe it's OK to break your fast whenever you feel like it or maybe not fast at all and instead go and do some good by helping the needy?
Please do think and wake up.
Is it that you think I'm not thinking?
Adam and Eve were right, they were forgiven immediately, there was nothing wrong with eating the fruit, it wasn't the "cause" of anything, it was an event which demonstrated the techniques of Satan in a harmless way, they became guilty after they did it. I would not be guilty if I killed my enemies to survive.
What those brothers did was very wrong and had bad intentions as well, and they hid it and hurt their father for years, yet it had good things come out of it.
Allah is writing all these stories. Allah says to repent if you make a mistake, and does not give the message of handing yourself over to your enemies. Your sense of justice may be a bit skewed or too extreme. God can do anything and make anything true and can forgive anything, or is it you believe in the God locked in a legalistic mire, who needs a human sacrifice to forgive the sins of mankind? Are you one of those who might say Allah's hand is fettered? What do you think the partners people used to make with God were? The ancient God's were just words for things, like "Time" and "Justice" and God is not fettered, so if you make a mistake, then continue to survive to do good another day is my advice and even seems to be the advice of the Qur'an. Were Adam and Eve immediately killed? No, not even Satan was immediately killed. Allah is the one who gives reprieve and gives a chance to amend, not a strict legalistic God because God is free of such things and can do anything and it is on God who we rely for everything, so if one makes a mistake, they should ask for forgiveness. Was Cain killed immediately? No, he was guided. Allah is the greatest.
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Peace be upon all of you,
Following is what I consider myself at this point in my journey towards assimilation with the infinite Creator
I am not a "Muslim" (with a capital "M".
I don't have a worldly "religion".
I am a positive 3rd density being who tries to walk on the path of service to others (STO) as opposed to the path of service to self (STS).
I am a peacemaker or a peaceful person (quraanic term "muslim", with a small "m".
http//www.free-minds.org/introduction-peacefulness
I am a truth seeker who tries to use my inner compass/conscience (3030), mind/reasoning (1611, 1644, 3942 etc.), and real world evidence (4153) to verify the truth.
I believe that the best way to discover the truth is by experiencing it yourself.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.msg362518#msg362518
I question everything, I assume nothing.
I believe in the One Infinite Creator.
I believe that the infinite Creator created everything so it can experience itself.
I believe that the whole physical universe including all of us 3rd density beings are the physical manifestation of a tiny tiny part of the infinite Creator (2115, 4126, E=m times c squared, string theory of quantum physics).
I believe that every physical manifestation of the infinite Creator is an illusion, which makes us conceive of things as separate from the infinite Creator.
I believe in the last day (accountability of actions, actions having implications and repercussions).
I believe in doing good deeds (service to others STO path).
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.
I believe some of us will be transformed to positive 4th density or higher density states of existence after death (quraanic heaven), depending on our good deeds (> 50% STO), on our journey back to assimilation with the infinite Creator.
I believe in reincarnation (228, 4011).
I believe that the inner compass/conscience, mind/reasoning, real world evidence, and personal experience of reality supersedes any scripture.
I believe that all negative experiences result from walking the service to self (STS) path, or selfishness.
I believe there is free will for 3rd density and higher beings, and no predestination.
I believe we have free will to choose between the STO path and STS path, and our next life will depend on that choice.
"truthseeker11" or whatever was rude to me, he didn't appreciate the work I put into my post, I was actually on topic but he accused me of being inconsiderate and off topic, all the while he is promoting astral projection, channeling entities, and that people should just "follow" whatever they might desire or imagine is true without any reference to anything other than themselves really, basically that they should trust in themselves, when we have seen demonstrated that all those people following their desires or intuition very often rest on falsehood and falseness and are the kinds of people who might say "Jesus is God!" and back it up with nothing more than "My heart tells me so!".
Even though truthseeker11 was spreading corruption and being absolutely rude and unappreciative of the work I put in my responses to him, I did not respond to him by calling him names or anything.
Evidence of the defamatory statements highlighted in red would be appreciated!
The relevant thread is as follows, so that everyone can see it for themselves
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607171.0
Peace and may the infinite Creator bless you all, including FreedomStands!
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Not sure what you're referring to here so apologies if I have misunderstood. Yes God owes us something. God is our Creator. He owes us food, clothing, brains so we can understand, guidance, mercy and forgiveness if we repent. He made us to live in a world where we are dependent on him. He didn't make us independent so that we can make our food from nothing. He made us so that we have the ability to learn, to have a wondrous brain which has a huge capacity to learn and take things in. God needs to provide the means to utilise this and all the other senses he has given us. God hasn't made us perfect which is one of the properties we can use to distinguish between us and him, God is perfect we are not. If we make a mistake I think it's fair to have the oppurtunity to repent. Some people were always going to be evil and lie and make up false things in the name of God. God owes us guidance incase we forget and incase the revelations become corrupted by other humans.
All of creation is dependent on God, that's how they have been created, God says in the Quran it's up to him to provide sustance to all living things. Those who accept it and obey, God is pleased with them.
Can we demand anything from? I don't think so. Can we ask and pray for it in a humble manner, by all means.
Why does God "owe" you those things? Do you "owe" a pot you make, something? Or can you freely decide its use and smash it up if you wish? You think God owe's those who do good a reward? God doesn't owe them anything, God invented the legal system and can change it freely, it isn't that Justice is over God, determining what actions God takes. Justice is under God, and God can make smashing babies a great thing of virtue if God wanted, because God can create anything. God doesn't "owe" you anything. You are the one who exists specifically because of God, God doesn't need you or owe you anything at all, if God wanted to make your eyeballs fall out into your hand, who could stop God? Who could say "That is unfair!" when God can create anything, can even make you think that it is fair or right or a great thing.
Does God owe the fish or the worm? Does God owe the worm who gets stepped by a person who doesn't pay attention and have its body split horribly as it wriggles and blood spews out while it remains stuck to the ground and can't get away even from its own effluence?
Does God owe that worm something?
How about the child that God makes have a horrific disease, is that Justice? Does God owe that child something?
Maybe you just have a different understanding of the word "owe".
"Sense of "to have to repay" began in late Old English with the phrase agan to geldanne literally "to own to yield," which was used to translate Latin debere (earlier in Old English this would have been sceal "shall" by late 12c. the phrase had been shortened to simply agan, and own (v.) took over this word's original sense. "
That God is indebted to us and has to pay us.
Do you really think that God has to pay us for our good deeds? Do you really think that God is forced somehow to do that? God is not ruled over by any system. If God gives you anything good, it is done so freely, not because you ever deserved any of it. If God gives you anything bad, it is done so freely, and God creates you ever moment exactly how God intends.
To say we are not "perfect" (and I know you must mean perfectly "good" or "just" according to this system), is to say that God does not create exactly what God wills, that God's "hand" slipped, that God makes mistakes, that the one who is perfect does not accomplish perfectly or exactly as God intends.
No, God created all this, and God creates exactly or perfectly what God wants without flaw, so if God wants to create such a thing as a "child rapist" that is absolutely without flaw exactly what God makes exist. There is no mistake, God didn't "slip up".
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You should read the example of Cain and Abel. Abel said go ahead and kill me it's not for me to retaliate, maybe some of my sins will removed and given to you.
In the battles of the prophet Mohammed the believers are warned never to turn their backs to the enemies unless it be a stratagem of war. If any did so they would die in the end anyway and face God at some point.
So as a believer it is your duty to turn yourself in if you have done a crime. The Quran tells us that when we know that we are on the right side of the law we demand justice, but when we are on the wrong side of it we try to escape it. This is wrong. You can't escape from justice.
It isn't wrong. Muhammed was on the wrong side of the "justice system" of the Pagans, and so was Ibrahim. Do not turn your backs means kill your enemies who try to kill you, and those Pagans who were fighting them were the ones who owned the city and it was their laws that were being broken and reviled by the Muslims who were breaking their laws and customs, so no, do not turn yourself over, otherwise Allah would have said "go hand yourself over to the pagans, your return is to Allah" no, Allah said kill them, and the Muslims were breaking their laws and their customs.
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Which prophets were on the wrong side of the law?
The prophet Mohammed was exercising his right to pray freely and call people to a new religion (which is in fact the old original religion but the pagans considered it new). He did not force anyone. The pagans didn't like it when they saw people converting. Maybe they were scared of losing their power or felt insulted/offended that their cherished religion the religions of their fathers was going to disappear. It was the pagans who attacked the prophet and his followers. It was they who declared war. The Quran clearly says that the believers can only fight those who fight them. The believers cannot go and force religion on people even if they win in a battle and take over a place.
I'm not sure how you get the idea that it's "Sometimes it is necessary to break the law, overthrow governments, kill people, and do whatever it takes to survive". Seems like you haven't read the Quran properly.
We cannot overthrow a government. If the government orders the army to kill you, you have a right to defend yourself or leave the country. Leaving the country is actually best since what's the point in fighting against a group of people who don't want you. God will provide a better place.
So it's never necessary to break the law or be the first to attack people. If we don't like the law then we have the choice to leave. There is no need to kill people. All disputes can be handled peacefully. If someone wants your shirt, give them your cloak as well.
Musa, Muhammed, Ibrahim, Lot, Shu'aib, and many others were on the wrong side of the laws and justice systems that were established for those people. Musa broke the law and ran, Ibrahim broke property and created chaos and reviled the customs and broke their laws so was going to be executed for it, Lot was opposed to the laws and customs of those people, Shu'aib was breaking the law, Noah was breaking the laws and customs of his people.
What "exercising his right" haha, do you think he was in America? He became a law breaker, and the law breakers were expelled.
I know they declared war, they declared war because he was considered a law breaker, a terrorist, a threat to society, people who reviled the law and the customs of their people, he was a law breaker.
I have read the Qur'an properly. When there is oppression in the land, and when you are being forced or killed or harmed, even if open war is not declared, you have every right to fight back, to kill, to overthrow the corrupt governments. I think your obsession with justice is a bit gross really, and it makes you untrustworthy too. If the laws of a people are bad and not in your favor, you must do what it takes to survive and should work against those laws or escape them, and if necessary, if the people are doing violence to you and your loved ones, you should destroy them and overthrow them until oppression is no more, even if they don't openly declare war on you but are clearly fighting and making war on you, you must fight, fighting is created by God.
We aren't Christians Ted, we don't lay down and die, there would be no religion if that were the case today and people had laid down and died and Muhammed handed himself over to the laws of the land.
If the Government wants to kill you and your family, and if you can not escape, then you kill them and that is not a "right" the Police don't say you have a "right" to defend yourself against them if you are considered a law breaker, but our survival is more important than what they say and you must kill or be killed, run or be run over, and survive to live and fight another day.
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Abraham was not a terrorist. He did not frighten others. He was alone, he could do no harm to anyone. He offended the pagans, that is not terrorism.
The law that Abraham broke was that he damaged someone else's property. He was young and if justice were to be served he should have been made to pay for the damages. The prophet Mohammed was ordered to only defend himself if he was attacked. He never broke any law.
Different cultures have different justice systems. Abraham was a terrorist, he terrorized the people by breaking their idols and making a public scene and threatened their way of life, threatening them and destroying the images of their God's they held dearest were acts of terrorism for them. So they decided he should be executed. Our Master, who does not abide by Justice nor is Bound to Justice, turned the fire cold. God showed that God can change anything, and God can choose and favor anyone.
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It's just wrong of you to say that God is the greatest potential enemy of all.
When Moses saw that his fellow man was having a dispute he should have found out what the dispute was over. If his fellow man had said that his brother or somone close in his family had been murdered by the Egyptian then Moses should have taken him to the authorities. There is no reason at all for him to strike and kill him.
God has given his law to us, we are expected to follow it and administer it even if it goes against us.
Is there some greater potential enemy than God? If God is made the enemy of someone, and God can not be defeated, then how is God not the greatest potential enemy and threat and the one that needs to be feared the most? Maybe you're misunderstanding my language use because of emotional attachments to certain words.
No, sometimes you can't "reason it out" something you're in the heat of the moment, and you should know that the EXACT METHOD of DEATH was DECREED for that person at that time, so do you think some accident occurred? That the person wasn't supposed to be killed by Musa precisely that moment? That doesn't mean we shouldn't repent, but it wasn't Allah's mistake, Allah wrote that story.
No, if you break the Law, even the Law of Allah, you repent and you survive, and your dealings are between you and Allah. You do not hand yourself over to humans if they are going to kill you and end your ability to do more good deeds, you will die when and in the way you're supposed (so if God makes you foolishly go hand yourself over, so be it) but you should survive by all means to live a life doing good thereafter.
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For me Islam is simply a powerful reminder of universal / moral human values, such as peace, not killing, not stealing, doing good deeds. Rituals etc. on the other hand are not and simply cannot be the basis (pillars) of Islam as argued by traditional Muslims.
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For me Islam is simply a powerful reminder of universal / moral human values, such as peace, not killing, not stealing, doing good deeds. Rituals etc. on the other hand are not and simply cannot be the basis (pillars) of Islam as argued by traditional Muslims.
Did you know those things were practiced in the past too? That worship was an important part of the cultures from around the world and part of the "good deeds" in the belief of the Hindus, the Zoroastrians, the Chinese, the Buddhists, the Egyptians and whoever else from around the whole world? Its supposed to be a good deed for yourself to yourself.
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Did you know those things were practiced in the past too? That worship was an important part of the cultures from around the world and part of the "good deeds" in the belief of the Hindus, the Zoroastrians, the Chinese, the Buddhists, the Egyptians and whoever else from around the whole world? Its supposed to be a good deed for yourself to yourself.
I absolutely didn't say that worship is useless or unimportant. But I've come to the conclusion that basic values like justice, peace, doing good deeds etc. are far more more important.
If praying 5 times a day was the most important aspect of Islam (which it absolutely cannot be), then how come the "Islamic world" is in such a terrible mess?
So much ignorance, suffering, barbarity, intolerance, wars, chaos, hypocrisy and basically all that is unislamic and evil can be found in all Muslim countries. This despite the fact that probably hundreds of millions of Muslims pray 5 times a day. How is that working out for us? Obviously, rituals are not the essence or objective of religions, good conduct is. Rituals are just means to remember God.
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Peace Recluse,
For me Islam is simply a powerful reminder of universal / moral human values, such as peace, not killing, not stealing, doing good deeds. Rituals etc. on the other hand are not and simply cannot be the basis (pillars) of Islam as argued by traditional Muslims.
bravo Agreed!
I am assuming you meant "islam" with a small "i" rather than Islam with a capital "I".
Islam is the religion of Muslims (capital M) and rituals are the basis of that Islam.
Islam is not the same as "islam".
Islam or Muslims are never mentioned in al-quran, but "islam" and "muslims" are mentioned.
Please see the following for what islam means according to al-quran
http//www.free-minds.org/introduction-peacefulness
http//www.quran4peace.org/en_index.html
You should have phrased your statement as follows
"For me "islam" is simply a powerful reminder of universal / moral human values, such as peace, not killing, not stealing, doing good deeds. Rituals etc. on the other hand are not and simply cannot be the basis (pillars) of "islam" as argued by traditional Muslims"
Muslims (capital M) actually violate a lot of commandments of al-quran.
Peace and may the infinite Creator bless you.