Is it zina?
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I think that the sexual bonding is the marriage and that many times it is betrayedm but society does not have the courage to fight betrayal and instead falls for the legal or seudoreligious tricks, and offers again leeway to those who do not take seriously real marriage and make a joke of it, of God, and of humanity.
Things being as they are, while insisting that the real marriaga is the sexual bonding itself, I WOULD NEVER advise a womanm unless a powerful woman, to give in to the "no need of papers" or no need to formalise anything line. That puts her square in the hands of every slandering mobs and in the hands of any male without a conscience.
No I affirm the principle that marriage is the bond of flesh, but I also warn candid women that those who use them shit on anything that is holy an shits on them.
That is why the Qur'an insists on publicity and involving as many people as possible in the commitments, so that those without honour find it more difficult to be without honour in a males world.
Salaam
It's true, I'll put my emotion aside. Yes, we need a solid rule about this, and the law has to be able to make people enforcing it. But what kind of rule will applied? In on side we passed the time where woman was enslaved, and then, it is time for the men to be controlled. I think anyone who make the rule is lucky enough that he never had any problem with his marriage, but how long it will last? When we talked about men, we face a great danger. Have a look at the past time? What so hard for men to take a shortcut? War? Rape? Literally enslaving woman? It's all written on their instinct. Now, since Im a fanboy of evolution, why should we take another way arround by trial error rather than a million years method which is effective? If you try to apply it to me, the new method, you can find me obey the law, but will most people follow it?
Lets say on the advance techonological society, or so they called, for example, japan, america, or somewhere else, where they at least having a tivi, even indonesia if you consider one. Most of them, had no problem with prostitution. Even legalized it. So here is what is common practice in there, teenager worked as a prostitution, in the other name form, in the name of education, or carrier. And all of it accepted as a normal social norm. We're talking about men nature here. We need something easy, fast and cheap.Okay, we regulate it. There is no way woman can enforce it without men help, at least, the police got to be men. What kind of law do you think will fit with all of this?
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Very good! One must look at the reality of things, and the reality can be quite ugly! Then, we should not give into the ugliness, but strive against it by seeing what is unpleasant and defying it in our own manner.
Seriously, since 5 years ago Im on progress to accept the standard thinking set called instinct. I almost give up my idealistic.
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It's true, I'll put my emotion aside. Yes, we need a solid rule about this, and the law has to be able to make people enforcing it. But what kind of rule will applied? In on side we passed the time where woman was enslaved, and then, it is time for the men to be controlled. I think anyone who make the rule is lucky enough that he never had any problem with his marriage, but how long it will last? When we talked about men, we face a great danger. Have a look at the past time? What so hard for men to take a shortcut? War? Rape? Literally enslaving woman? It's all written on their instinct. Now, since Im a fanboy of evolution, why should we take another way arround by trial error rather than a million years method which is effective? If you try to apply it to me, the new method, you can find me obey the law, but will most people follow it?
Lets say on the advance techonological society, or so they called, for example, japan, america, or somewhere else, where they at least having a tivi, even indonesia if you consider one. Most of them, had no problem with prostitution. Even legalized it. So here is what is common practice in there, teenager worked as a prostitution, in the other name form, in the name of education, or carrier. And all of it accepted as a normal social norm. We're talking about men nature here. We need something easy, fast and cheap.Okay, we regulate it. There is no way woman can enforce it without men help, at least, the police got to be men. What kind of law do you think will fit with all of this?
The choice is between bad and worse. If there is no paper work for the marriage the woman is alone in the face of a man who can do whatever he choses, with the papers, at least some men are good men and even if they are not, there is at least a semblance of legality which must be upheld, which would always be better than nothing at all.
The worst case of course is where all people in society are rogues and paper is shit same as everything else, but still no worse than no paper at all.
But the "how do you say you love me if you do not trust me, has long, long history of landing women in trouble through the ages.
It is not that there are not good men, but the fact that those who are not good do not go around showing it, you find out the hard way.
Salaam
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The choice is between bad and worse. If there is no paper work for the marriage the woman is alone in the face of a man who can do whatever he choses, with the papers, at least some men are good men and even if they are not, there is at least a semblance of legality which must be upheld, which would always be better than nothing at all.
The worst case of course is where all people in society are rogues and paper is shit same as everything else, but still no worse than no paper at all.
But the "how do you say you love me if you do not trust me, has long, long history of landing women in trouble through the ages.
It is not that there are not good men, but the fact that those who are not good do not go around showing it, you find out the hard way.
Salaam
Okay I agree. Even it is unessecary. I prefer the old fashion way, get permission from her dad, give him something to show you're responsible, get some people as withness, and you're good to go.
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The question is that nobody is cheated and nobody is used, particularly the women since in a males society (and all societies I know of are males societes to a lesser or greater degree) they are likely to be abused and used.
But ultimately those requirements for partners no to be heated or used are that, requirements for marriage, not marriage itself. Requirements established so that abusers don't use marriage for their own self-interested consumption against the other partner.
There awe and reverence should be for the substance of marriage, the divine grace for giving life.
Salaam
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I think this post could be the most telling. I'm going to tell you a little secret that very few muslims seem to know. The Quran screws men over. That's right, men get screwed over. Why? Because "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women)." 434. The Quran at multiple points makes men responsible generally for the financial and physical responsibility for others, the young, Women and the elderly. It does not mean that these groups of people are incapable of protecting themselves, nor do men become the masters of Women, but men are responsible, it is their curse and it is what every God fearing man's responsibility is.
To describe my own experiences, I've had 'relationships' with four Women in my life, I'll describe them as such
1 Before I was Muslim and God fearing, I was in a relationship for about 12 months (ironically, her parents were Muslim but gave it up before she was born).
2 After I converted, I had to wait nearly 2 years to marry a Woman who I spent 6 years with and gained two children from.
3 After separating from the second, I had a mild thing which was a lot of fun and I thought I loved with someone else which turned into nothing, who was separated from her own husband.
4 My current wife of about 5 months.The only relationship I regret is the third. Why? Because it was the only one which didn't have strings attached, there was no attempt by her to make anything serious of it and that bothered me and for her the idea was opposite to her sense of freedom. Even the first relationship had some degree of commitment despite both of us being atheist at the time. I know better now, that 'boyfriend-girlfriend' status doesn't really work. That might sound rich from someone who got married then divorced, I'm not claiming that marriage is a band aid for all time and it will prevent separation, but marriage, true marriage; not one where you pick and choose at will is the stable safety net that people need in the horrible event that it doesn't work and separation happens.
For my first wife I didn't marry legally in terms of the state (United Kingdom) only an Islamic wedding. Through that, while there was no 'legal' reason to support her in divorce I did so because it was my duty as a Muslim, as a maintainer to do so and I'm proud of doing it. I'm proud to say that I didn't leave my ex-wife in a ditch that despite our issues I acted as I was ordained to do; possibly the first man to ever do that in her immediate family and I hold an immense sense of pride in that.
Islam, God, the Quran, whichever or all you follow, places a huge weight on the responsibilities of couples, you need to ask yourself if you really are 'married' living together as boyfriend and girlfriend or if true marriage, yes with conditions of dowry to her and the event of divorce, with witnesses to accept it as a legal act is true. The way of God is not meant to be easy, it places a huge responsibility on us all to support each other despite all difficulties. Marriage does not have to be expensive, you don't even need an imam to host or bless it, but you do need to make a public commitment and outline what happens if it fails.
Fantastic post! Totally right, and yeah the 3rd one is the one that bothers me too the most, those are the scariest interactions.
This is about doing justice and being obligated towards being noble and doing what is right, as you said above. Perfect! I wish you felicity in your new marriage.
Allah may be proving by these interactions who is just and who is unjust, and really a happy marriage is not a necessary sign of any "blessing", but right actions throughout any interaction is indeed a blessing upon the righteous one!
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I think if injustice is happening and you've reasoned it out clearly, then your reaction is clearly justified.
If people are being whipped for actually being married in all senses, not cheating on someone else, but just missing paperwork, then this is a wrong practice, especially considering that there is no requirement for paperwork, only to be truly obligated with the financial burden of being the maintainer of the girl and honoring her with a dowry and proper support. Even so, open legality can assist in a few important ways in case anything really terrible happens but people have been made afraid because of lies and other things which have caused unjust rulings perhaps.
In other words, your reactions are normal reactions to what you are witnessing and thinking is happening, and your thought (if this is your thought) that "it is better not to marry legally) is also sensible in reaction to the information your mind is receiving and the simulations it is running that are making you feel threatened.
Yet, several major problems occur in the other fashion, outside of legal marriage, and people need to assess those risks as well, not just the harms that can occur to you from the law, but the harms that can occur without legal protection.
So when looking at things, one can look at things like one might a tool, and examine the dangers as well as the utility.
With a larger computation, taking in psychological factors as well as economic and legal and otherwise and examining the various laws in the lands and the cultures and basically as much information as possible, it comes out that marriage in a legal fashion better protects both the male and the female more than no marriage.
One can make a pre-nuptial agreement and contract in order to protect oneself from major wealth theft if that is a concern.
When people do not legally marry and end up having a child, major complications can occur which make things even more dangerous for the male than if they were married.
Also, a girl who is unwilling to get married, or a girl who would get married but doesn't get married, may in the first case be suspect for their lack of trust, and in the latter case may wish to have been married but their mind may wander to someone who is willing to marry them, and many girls after a good many years seek out others and marry them. There is a psychological level of disloyalty at times, even in marriage of course, except being married makes it much more of a chaotic hassle and in some cases adultery causes the loss of many legal rights for her in case of divorce whereas outside of legality it can be a free-for-all.
So take advantage of the law where you can for your own protection, and be sharp and protect yourself as best you can from the terrible possibilities even if they seem impossible. I personally have encountered a great deal of infidelity from the most religious seeming people and sources, so no one can really be trusted in the end and you need to make it very difficult for people to do wrong or they might still do it. This is the unfortunate state of most of humanity, who is far from a sense of empathy, mercy, and justice, and so they cheat, and plot, and their eyes wander, and they fight, and they hurt, and they get revenge, and they steal away children, and they mis-educate people, and whatever else, so protect yourself as best you can for all the possible shocks that may occur.
Yes, injustice, and injustice in the legal systems of the world will have a stench, but even if the wrench is smelly, you can use it to fix your bicycle or whatever else.
After a certain age, statistics seem to show marriages last longer. Young marriages are less likely to last, whereas young relationships are very unlikely to last outside of marriage.
The statistics (and actually talking to people in real life) show that people are betraying each other and abandoning each other very frequently, and they barely get to know each other, and they don't protect themselves in multiple ways including legally, but often also acquiring other issues due to their lack of fore-thought and strategy.
So if you have a girl, for your own protection, remain chaste so that she can't hurt THAT bad, and then bind her up in legalities which are in your favor, there is no better form of bondage than the kind which protects you from harm, even if it requires tying you up from giving too much that can hurt you later (like Yusuf went to jail to protect himself, he wanted the girl and she wanted him, but he was a smarter strategist even though it sounds absurd. If he committed adultery with her, she would have had power to harm him at any time, and being found out, he could have been executed or harmed greatly. He was attracted to her and would have happily done things had it not been that he was endowed with justice and right insight by Allah, and did not want to go against Allah, or the law, or risk harming himself. Compare it to the absolute trash in the Bible stories where David has a man murdered to steal his wife among other atrocious acts taught in the Bible as the doings of noble prophets, if such were even true, such is to be despised as filth).
So the best advise is strategy. Not faith (never faith or blind faith), nor emotional impulses (or chemical impulses), or anything but solid and well reasoned strategy which takes into account as many possibilities and types of information possible.
To be like a super computer of insight.
Things should be very public, very just, very well known that you are excellent.
If you could live in a glass house, so all can see that you are kind and gracious in the utmost, and their parents know it, and everyone knows it, you are protecting yourself that way, and if she does wrong, the whole world would be aware who is in the right and who is in the wrong, because you are utterly just and kind and did everything, were a total chump, legally married, gave her all the rights, did not do injustice by the standards of any laws, and then what can they say about you? So try your hardest to be impenetrable in the opinion of everyone, and then enjoy your penetration.
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Now i would like all of you to give an honest opinion such as Muttah marriage, since this issue came up sunni had been labeling these practices as Prostitution, eventhough sunni practices this type of marriage also(Misyar)
Now can these be categorized as Zina? i would like your honest opinions
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Muta3 is clearly prostitution when it lasta a few hours only. I wouldn't call it prostitution if it lasts two years.
Salaam
If i hire a prostitute to do me for a year does that count as Mutah? I see more commitment and love in Teenage couples then those who do Mutah
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Now i would like all of you to give an honest opinion such as Muttah marriage, since this issue came up sunni had been labeling these practices as Prostitution, eventhough sunni practices this type of marriage also(Misyar)
Now can these be categorized as Zina? i would like your honest opinions
If i hire a prostitute to do me for a year does that count as Mutah? I see more commitment and love in Teenage couples then those who do Mutah
It seems like you are not interested in what The Quran says.
See
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg373915#msg373915
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg373917#msg373917 -
If i hire a prostitute to do me for a year does that count as Mutah? I see more commitment and love in Teenage couples then those who do Mutah
I will agree with you in the current time. But Im thinking about our species. We wont last with such a thing. Contraseption pill changed our society.
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It seems like you are not interested in what The Quran says.
See
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg373915#msg373915
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg373917#msg373917Now it's not that i'm not interested in the quran, it's just that i see mutah as similar as prostitution that's all...it's even considered as Halal prostitution in Indonesia
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Now it's not that i'm not interested in the quran, it's just that i see mutah as similar as prostitution that's all...it's even considered as Halal prostitution in Indonesia
Once was. I heard there is lot of guest on my city. But now its considered ilehgal since it was too cheap. But you can have a girlfriend as a alternative. But I bet you'll find it difficult if you have a middle east face, including israel. For now, never heard of it anymore.
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My question is that do the people who does Mutah poligamy simply for sexual pleasure does not deserve any punishment?
I know it looks like that i'm a little pissed off, i'm not desperately trying to prove sex with a gf is permissable or anything but... it's just that this type of people who does misyar and mutah feels like they're taking advantage of god's law with their money(dowry) that's just how i feel.How do you feel if your buddy does a temporary poligamy marriage for sex and he said to your face "Don't worry man it's all halal i follow the instructions in the quran"
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My question is that do the people who does Mutah poligamy simply for sexual pleasure does not deserve any punishment?
I know it looks like that i'm a little pissed off, i'm not desperately trying to prove sex with a gf is permissable or anything but... it's just that this type of people who does misyar and mutah feels like they're taking advantage of god's law with their money(dowry) that's just how i feel.How do you feel if your buddy does a temporary poligamy marriage for sex and he said to your face "Don't worry man it's all halal i follow the instructions in the quran"
We are judged by our intentions, one may fool all of mankind but not Allah.
God bless
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Is it forbidden anywhere in the Qur'an to marry a former prostitute? No. But if you take her as a prostitute and tell her that you take her as wife, obviously you are sinning but not her.
Salaam
But the guy paid the dowry and had a permission from her family right? He followed the procedure in the quran how does that count as sinning from your perspective? Is it so hard to determine if that person is committing fornication or not that it needs 4 witness in the quran? why not just 1 person who saw the whole thing?
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You must know what you want. Either you are interested in being good or on not being caught. You decide.
Salaam
In being good or on not being caught? please explain what you mean by this statement i'm talking about temporary marriages here, not banging someone in secret or being caught doing it
