TWO PHYSICAL RITUALS OF SALAAT (LET'S TALK)

As-Salaatayn

Salaam. I am an old member here, formerly known as PROGOD and Anwar. I had to start a new account because of an outdated email. I wanted to introduce myself to those of you who may remember me. I have been on and off of Quranist forums because of the volatility of Quranist circles and the frustration of not being able to come to a common understanding and start something organized and material for Quranists.

With that said, Wakas and I came to the conclusion of two salaat a day in two very different ways. He was able to confirm that outside of the details of the hadeeth concerning the Ascension, Muslims had a ritualistic prayer that was made specifically twice a day (dawn and dusk). My method was taking the more ambiguous verses about the timing of Salaat and whenever possible reducing them to the more explicit timings of other verses (using the explicit verses al-muhkamaat to explain the more ambiguous verse al-mutashaabihaat). In my study all the verses about the timing of Salaat can be reduced to dawn and dusk. Other possible reading for timings, in my opinion become not obligatory, but still very acceptable, so in the language of Classical Arabic scholarship those times other than dawn and dusk become musta7abb but not fard in anyway. Only two timings are fard as far as I see it. Early Muslims may have prayed more than this on their own volition but as far as he (Wakas) and I are concerned there seem to be only two mandatory ritual Salaat in the Quran, dawn and dusk.

If you agree with these two times of Salaat I would like to open up a conversation with you on other details (the nature/definition of rak'ah, what can/should be said during prayer, the nature of janaabah and purity for prayer and possibly other bigger Quranic issues). I want to start with these two times a day as a common point. If you don't believe that the idea of two salaat a day is true or that salaat is something ritualistic or physical please don't comment. I respect your right to believe in what you believe and to disagree with me. However, the purpose of this thread is to start talking to those who agree with this, not to argue with those who do not agree. Thank you and Salaam.

Hope

Am interested... go on.

Wakas

peace Anwar, all,

Here is my view, similar to yours, but in my own words

To my knowledge, Quranic evidence is significantly in favour of
a minimum of two daily salat for the mumineen. The model given is for "dawn and dusk" times.

References
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

Perhaps you were referring to this work I have mentioned before.

As-Salaatayn

Salaam,

Thank you guys for replying. I'm sure it will take some time for others to join in. And unfortunately if we really get into this some people may join in and not read what was posted before. I want to have this conversation here and also maybe on some sort of skype like forum. I was on one in the past but I cannot remember what it's name is.

So, I'll start with the rak'ah. I have done some research on rak'ah in Lisanul-Arab and Mu'jam Mufradaat al-faadhul-Qur'aaan (MMAQ) by Abul-Qaasim al-isfahani. What I have seen are the following

rak'ah
This word means to bow down or bend down, once. It is the actual act of bowing/bending down which can stop with one's hands on the knees or continue all the way down to prostration. There is no real difference between rukoo', rak'ah and sujood linguistically, except that sujood can include the ending position, as in prostration. Rak'ah is to do rukoo' once and rukoo' is to bow down in any form, linguistically. Raaki3, being one who engages in rukoo', had a pre-islamic meaning of monotheist also according to Mu'jam Mufradaat al-faadhul-Qur'aaan (MMAQ). In Islamic jargon (only associated with traditional Islamic prayer) we get a prayer unit that at it's most basic is starts off at standing position, bows down until the back is relaxed with hands on knees and then bows down to the ground prostrating with head to the ground twice (sajdataani). The extra standing after bowing down to the knees is optional but not doing it is considered undesirable (makrooh). This is how Lisanul-Arab and MMAQ explain it. However, this formulaic approach is only associated with Islamic prayer. These are not innate linguistic meanings associated with rak3ah and rukoo3.
Sajdah
Sajdah is to make sujood once. Sujood is either the final position after bowing down to the ground or the act of bowing down. Whereas Rukoo' seems to be the actual act of bending/bowing down. Lisanul-Arab and Mu'jam Mufradaat al-faadhul-Qur'aaan (MMAQ) mention leaning trees being referred to as saajid. Also we know that sajada has a meaning of 'paying homage/respect' as well. Camels with chins to the ground are also saajid or in sujood. As a matter of fact the epithet of falling to the chins is idiomatic and comes from camels who when prostrate have their chins on the ground. When the Quran uses this for people it is not literal but refers to having our faces fully on the ground. It's like saying that someone is 'high tailing it' in common American usage. People don't have tails and their are not high up when we are running away. But this is an idiomatic expression that comes from deer, who when running away have their tails high up. No need to put our chins on the ground, just our faces.
How many times to bow?

I don't believe there is an exact number. But the Quran does refer to us bowing and standing when we pray 2564, 399 (keep in mind when reading these verses that dawn and dusk technically are both night time AND day time (Being the edges of the day and the parts of the night closest to the day). Lastly, I personally believe that the 7 mathaany can be used to determine how many times one should bow down (bowing to the knees or prostrating). However, I would never say that this is obligatory. Mathnaa can mean 'bowing.' So this can be taken as 'the seven bows.' Aside from that I have NOTHING again the way other Muslims pray. I find it to be perfectly Quranic, except that I will particularly recite verses that I believe are connected to Salaat while praying like them. Al-kawthar can allude to putting one's hand on one's chest (na7r) but obviously it can also be read in other ways, one being bowing down itself (na7r can be to bow down as one's chest goes down when one bows down.) I incorporate everything that can relate to Salaat in the Quran into my Salaat. This is always open for me as I am always reading, learning and new and clarifying things within the Qur'an.

Prayer in unison.
I don't believe that this is necessary but I am not against it as a ritual of unity in prayer.
Friday prayer
I don't believe that this is in the Quran as Jumu'ah was not the name for 'Friday' during the days of the Jahiliyyah. But I am not against it as a ritual of unity, communal orientation and collective benefit for the community.

Salam

hanslan

Salam All,

Base on my understanding, there are two times clearly mentioned Fajar and Isyak. The `wusta' part is the short period between those two periods i.e. from night to day and from day to night, because of the short duration and specific times it is easy for anyone to miss it (hence the instruction to leave everything when the time for prayer is called/arrives). The Quran does not specify clearly any specific methods, in fact you can perform it any way or any where you want. Hence for the believers, there is no excuse for missing the prayers except when you are unconscious/sleeping/coma/delirious/drunk/mad etc. I also believe prayers are very personal between the created and the Creator, hence there is no need for a formal group prayer, but it does not stop from praying in a common place.

Peace All.

As-Salaatayn

Haslan,

Interesting. I also think that the idea of congregational prayers in unison is not necessary, although praying in one place and in public masjids is highly encouraged in the Qur'an. I also do not see the need for prayer to be led. With that said I don't think it is bad, just no obligatory or necessary.

I want to add that I am starting to notice a trend. There is an Ibadhi state that clearly states

The obligation of Salaah was something early. The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) began to pray two rak'as of ritual prayer twice a day ? once in the morning and once in the evening. Afterwards, the five ritual prayers were prescribed in the heavens during the magnificent journey (Al-Isra wa Al-Miraj). Aisha, the wife of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH), reported "The prayer was prescribed as consisting of two rak'as both when one was resident and when travelling. Then the travelling prayer was kept as it was, and an increase was made in the prayer (observed) at the place of residence."

http//bintibadh.blogspot.com/2014/02/servitude-to-allah-almighty-can-be.html

I read on a Shia' site that there were 5 Salaats but they were only 2 raka'ahs and that the extra raka'ats were added during the ascension. And the Sunnis sources seem to say that there were only 2 salaats a day as well as Wakas has shown. So, what happened here? It seems that there was a lot of corruption very early on in Islam for all of the sects to have adopted this 5 prayers a day and then kept it after they split off.

Just how everyone takes Zakaah to be the poor-tax when it clearly isn't. So, it seems that the corruption came very early or the sects came a lot later than we realize.

I do see standing and bowing in the Quran, but just as there is no need for more there is nothing wrong with specifics as long as they don't go against the Qur'an. However it is one thing to say that something is good/acceptable and another to say that it is obligatory.

As-Salaatayn

Are these the only Quranists here who believe in two Salaat per day. Please come join the convo or speak up if you also believe that there are only two OBLIGATORY times for Salaat.

hanslan

Friday prayer
I don't believe that this is in the Quran as Jumu'ah was not the name for 'Friday' during the days of the Jahiliyyah. But I am not against it as a ritual of unity, communal orientation and collective benefit for the community.

Salam, I personally feel Friday is when people get fried (get it - Fry day), because in those sermons that people give and listen to are mostly against Quranic teachings. It is very rare when the sermon is about the Quran's teachings, it has become a place where politics, condemning other religion/people and bad-mouthing takes place. It is also where God is given a partner in the name of Muhammad and whenever it is about the Quran - reference is always made to the hadiths to explain the Quran. And I could not find the Friday prayers anywhere in the Quran. And why are women being exempted??? Someone here says women are equal to men when it comes to religious duty.

Peace.

Taro_Hiroshi

Peace As-Salaatayn,

Welcome back to forum )

Are these the only Quranists here who believe in two Salaat per day. Please come join the convo or speak up if you also believe that there are only two OBLIGATORY times for Salaat.

I believe in two Salat per day. You can read my views about the notion that there are 2 daily Salat in the posts below.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596592.msg379595#msg379595

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598576.msg376640#msg376640

Taro_Hiroshi

Peace As-Salaatayn and everyone,

Just how everyone takes Zakaah to be the poor-tax when it clearly isn't. So, it seems that the corruption came very early or the sects came a lot later than we realize.

I think you are right when you suggest that Zakat isn't the poor-tax. In my view, the traditional understanding of the word Zakat is incorrect. It seems that the word Zakat has been mistranslated and misinterpreted by traditional muslims.

I would like to share an article about Zakat with you. It's an excellent article, in my opinion. Thus I highly recommend this article.

http//quranreminder.blogspot.no/2013/08/zakat-in-quran.html

Also, I recommend the post below.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606491.msg376094#msg376094

As-Salaatayn

Interesting articles.

Taro_Hiroshi

Peace As-Salaatayn and everyone,

Interesting articles.

I'm glad to hear you say that brother. May the God reward the authors of those articles. Because their articles have helped me (and possibly others) to understand the meaning of the word "Zakat" on a deeper level.

I would like to share one more article here. I think it's an excellent article. If you haven't read it already, I deeply recommend reading it.

http//www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/A01

By the way, I am planning to share some articles (and also a few books) about Quran/islam and related topics in FM in due time (in the future). I hope you and others will find them interesting and/or useful.

I am eager to learn from everyone in this forum (especially long term members). I have learned a lot from some long term members in FM. And I think that many of their thoughts are insightful, inspirational and life-changing. Some long term members in FM have deeply influenced my views on islam and AQ (The Reading).

In my view, most of the best posts in this forum are written by the long term members in FM. In the past, there were some very knowledgeable and enlightened members in this forum. And I think that they wrote very good posts about islam and AQ.

Since you are an old member in FM, I think I have a lot to learn from you. It would be interesting to read your thoughts on islam/quran and related topics. I hope you will share more of your knowledge in FM.

I look forward to read your future posts.

May the God bless you.

Best wishes,

Taro H.

As-Salaatayn

Taro, so what is your opinion on how it should be done?

Could you respond to the following points?

rak'ah
This word means to bow down or bend down, once. It is the actual act of bowing/bending down which can stop with one's hands on the knees or continue all the way down to prostration. There is no real difference between rukoo', rak'ah and sujood linguistically, except that sujood can include the ending position, as in prostration. Rak'ah is to do rukoo' once and rukoo' is to bow down in any form, linguistically. Raaki3, being one who engages in rukoo', had a pre-islamic meaning of monotheist also according to Mu'jam Mufradaat al-faadhul-Qur'aaan (MMAQ). In Islamic jargon (only associated with traditional Islamic prayer) we get a prayer unit that at it's most basic is starts off at standing position, bows down until the back is relaxed with hands on knees and then bows down to the ground prostrating with head to the ground twice (sajdataani). The extra standing after bowing down to the knees is optional but not doing it is considered undesirable (makrooh). This is how Lisanul-Arab and MMAQ explain it. However, this formulaic approach is only associated with Islamic prayer. These are not innate linguistic meanings associated with rak3ah and rukoo3.
Sajdah
Sajdah is to make sujood once. Sujood is either the final position after bowing down to the ground or the act of bowing down. Whereas Rukoo' seems to be the actual act of bending/bowing down. Lisanul-Arab and Mu'jam Mufradaat al-faadhul-Qur'aaan (MMAQ) mention leaning trees being referred to as saajid. Also we know that sajada has a meaning of 'paying homage/respect' as well. Camels with chins to the ground are also saajid or in sujood. As a matter of fact the epithet of falling to the chins is idiomatic and comes from camels who when prostrate have their chins on the ground. When the Quran uses this for people it is not literal but refers to having our faces fully on the ground. It's like saying that someone is 'high tailing it' in common American usage. People don't have tails and their are not high up when we are running away. But this is an idiomatic expression that comes from deer, who when running away have their tails high up. No need to put our chins on the ground, just our faces.
How many times to bow?

I don't believe there is an exact number. But the Quran does refer to us bowing and standing when we pray 2564, 399 (keep in mind when reading these verses that dawn and dusk technically are both night time AND day time (Being the edges of the day and the parts of the night closest to the day). Lastly, I personally believe that the 7 mathaany can be used to determine how many times one should bow down (bowing to the knees or prostrating). However, I would never say that this is obligatory. Mathnaa can mean 'bowing.' So this can be taken as 'the seven bows.' Aside from that I have NOTHING again the way other Muslims pray. I find it to be perfectly Quranic, except that I will particularly recite verses that I believe are connected to Salaat while praying like them. Al-kawthar can allude to putting one's hand on one's chest (na7r) but obviously it can also be read in other ways, one being bowing down itself (na7r can be to bow down as one's chest goes down when one bows down.) I incorporate everything that can relate to Salaat in the Quran into my Salaat. This is always open for me as I am always reading, learning and new and clarifying things within the Qur'an.

Prayer in unison.
I don't believe that this is necessary but I am not against it as a ritual of unity in prayer.
Friday prayer
I don't believe that this is in the Quran as Jumu'ah was not the name for 'Friday' during the days of the Jahiliyyah. But I am not against it as a ritual of unity, communal orientation and collective benefit for the community.

Wakas

peace Anwar,

With regard to your point (4), if we look at 4102 it clearly refers to a group salat. From what you've said you seem to favour a freeform salat (or "prayer" as you call it). How would you reconcile the two?

e.g. if done individually it is freeform, but when done in group the format is agreed beforehand, or something else?

As-Salaatayn

Wakas,

Salaamun 'Alaykum. Thanks for asking me that! I have nothing against uniform group Salaat, but I take those verses to refer to people praying in the same space at the same time, not necessarily in unison. So any parishioner or devout person who goes to a holy place and prays where other people are praying at and around the same time is praying along or with those people. They are worshiping with others who worship. This worship CAN be in unison but, as I see it, it can also be in the same time and place. As a gesture of unity among the believers I think prayer in unison is great. But I would not say that it is obligatory from my understanding of the Quran. If I read something in the Quran or concerning the language that causes me to change my opinion I will let you know.

Peace!

Taro_Hiroshi

Peace As-Salaatayn,

I will respond to the points in your post in due time (hopefully at the end of this week). Also, I recommend asking Wakas questions about Salat. Because Wakas seems to have studied the concept of Salat throughly. He seems to be one of the most knowledgeable members in FM regarding Salat, but also Zakat, Hajj and some other concepts. I also recommend asking Ayman questions about Salat and/or reading his articles and books. Ayman also seems to be one of the most knowledgeable members in FM regarding Salat, but also Zakat, Hajj and some other quranic terms/concepts. I also like Ghulam Ahmad Parwez's explanations of Salat. Many people think that G. A. Parwez is one of the greatest muslim authors of all time. If you haven't read his articles and books, I deeply recommend reading them. It seems that there are few muslim authors who have been as sincere and dedicated as G.A. Parwez. And it seems that few muslim authors have worked as hard as he has for the Quranic community. Some of the best books and articles I have ever read about islam are Parwez's books and articles. Muhammad Asad's and Muhammad Shahrour's works are also excellent, in my opinion. G.A. Parwez, M. Asad and M. Shahrour have a very rational, practical/realistic and scientific approach to islam. I don't agree with all of their views, by the way. But I agree with a lot of their views.

Wakas

peace Anwar,
Thanks for the reply, however I'm not sure if I have understood your position completely. Here is what 4102 says

4102 And when thou are among them then thou uphold/establish the salat/bond for/to/unto them, then let a group from among them stand/uphold//establish with thee and let them bring their weapons; then when they have SaJaD then let them be behind you (plural) and let come a group other which has not yet sallu so let them sallu with you...

the context (4101) seems to be about travelling in the land, not meeting up at a known "holy place" (as you call it).
If not in unison how do you explain the usage of the parts in bold above?
if it is done in unison, do you mean the format/content is agreed beforehand, then implemented, or something else?

As-Salaatayn

Wakas,

Very interesting. You have got me thinking. 4101 established the context here of travelling and having to shorten/restrict prayer because of fear that the infidels (to God and the Qur'an) may cause them trouble. I really can't see how the verse can be taken out of this context.

As far as 4102, it has the prophet starting/establishing/keeping regular the prayer among the believers who are travelling and worried about the infidels. I always read the verse as stating that the believers stand with the last prophet (saas) and when finished that they then stand behind the praying party and stand guard behind the group who pray with the last prophet (saas).

I think it is logical here to assume that they are praying together, but that this is only the case because the prayer is restricted and shortened due to fear. Also aqamta here can imply to lead, but not necessarily. The ma3aka can mean that they are praying alongside the prophet and not behind him. The 'let them be behind you' seems to be for those taking the guard position.

That is how I see those verses. So to answer your points.

Exactly. I did not check that verse, nor was it the verse I was referring to when I was thinking of praying in unison. I was thinking of verses like 243 and 343 and the like.
I believe that this is the most logical conclusion for 4102 although it is possible that they are not praying exactly in unison.
By unison I mean engaging in simultaneous movements in a pre-formatted or formatted and formulaic way like most Muslims engage in prayer.

hanslan

That is how I see those verses. So to answer your points.

Exactly. I did not check that verse, nor was it the verse I was referring to when I was thinking of praying in unison. I was thinking of verses like 243 and 343 and the like.
I believe that this is the most logical conclusion for 4102 although it is possible that they are not praying exactly in unison.
By unison I mean engaging in simultaneous movements in a pre-formatted or formatted and formulaic way like most Muslims engage in prayer.

Salam, I tend to agree with the unison part - people are praying in the same place but at their own pace and in their own manner.
In times of danger, one group stands guard and will replace the earlier group upon the 1st group's completion.
Both groups need to shorten their respective solat as the timing is even shorter given the window for solat between the night to day and day to night is short.

Any form of a formal engagement in prayer in groups is not consistent with the way Allah will judge us at the end which is you are judged alone not with others. Solat or any form of religious duty one performs is always an individual performance and it becomes unfair when it is judged in groups. If I was being judged along another, I will pose my objection to the Creator - thus the Knower has informed us in the Quran that judgement is on individual basis.

This is my personal understanding and I am not forcing or coercing anyone to follow. Peace.

Wakas

Anwar,
You may wish to read the following article. It also discusses 4102, and brings up some other issues with it
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

The reason I brought this issue up is that those who believe in a freeform salat (which you call prayer) are forced into accepting this verse refers to a group non-freeform salat - opposites.

It's certainly an interesting position, but whether it works or not, is another issue.