TWO PHYSICAL RITUALS OF SALAAT (LET'S TALK)
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Salaam. I am an old member here, formerly known as PROGOD and Anwar. I had to start a new account because of an outdated email. I wanted to introduce myself to those of you who may remember me. I have been on and off of Quranist forums because of the volatility of Quranist circles and the frustration of not being able to come to a common understanding and start something organized and material for Quranists.
With that said, Wakas and I came to the conclusion of two salaat a day in two very different ways. He was able to confirm that outside of the details of the hadeeth concerning the Ascension, Muslims had a ritualistic prayer that was made specifically twice a day (dawn and dusk). My method was taking the more ambiguous verses about the timing of Salaat and whenever possible reducing them to the more explicit timings of other verses (using the explicit verses al-muhkamaat to explain the more ambiguous verse al-mutashaabihaat). In my study all the verses about the timing of Salaat can be reduced to dawn and dusk. Other possible reading for timings, in my opinion become not obligatory, but still very acceptable, so in the language of Classical Arabic scholarship those times other than dawn and dusk become musta7abb but not fard in anyway. Only two timings are fard as far as I see it. Early Muslims may have prayed more than this on their own volition but as far as he (Wakas) and I are concerned there seem to be only two mandatory ritual Salaat in the Quran, dawn and dusk.
If you agree with these two times of Salaat I would like to open up a conversation with you on other details (the nature/definition of rak'ah, what can/should be said during prayer, the nature of janaabah and purity for prayer and possibly other bigger Quranic issues). I want to start with these two times a day as a common point. If you don't believe that the idea of two salaat a day is true or that salaat is something ritualistic or physical please don't comment. I respect your right to believe in what you believe and to disagree with me. However, the purpose of this thread is to start talking to those who agree with this, not to argue with those who do not agree. Thank you and Salaam.
And do not forget "Salaat Al Wusta".
I agree, "salaat al fajdr" and "salaat al isha" should be very important to us.
Peace.
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The AfricanLamb,
You believe in 3 Salaat. Those of us here in this theme have very good reason to believe that As-salaatul-wustaa does not refer to an actual time for Salaat but to the quality of our Salaat.
Salaam
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Peace As-Salaatayn,
I'd like to give my conclusions on 'Ibadah and 3abd according to what I have read in Lisanul-Arab, Mu'jam Mufradaat al-faadhul-Quraan and the Qur'an. I will list them.
Interesting post. Thank you for sharing your evidence-based conclusions.
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Peace Wakas,
Also see
3BD
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600888.msg253322#msg253322Interesting quote from Mustansir Mir's book. I have not read his book yet. But I have planned to read it for a long time. His book seems similar to Toshihiko Izutsu's book "God and man in the Quran." But I might be wrong. The quote you shared in your post have motivated/inspired me to read his book much sooner than I had planned. Anyway, thanks for sharing the quote from his book.
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I am not sure if anyone has seen this already. But this is the stance of the Isma'ilis under Agha Khan.
http//www.ismaili.net/Source/mumtaz/salat.pdf
I have also read where they often just perform two Salaat per day.
From my reading of the Quran, a noon/afternoon prayer is possible but it is the weaker interpretation. It would seem that the article puts it into that status originally as a prayer that was done at times and become moreso of a tradition on Friday than a prayer that was fixed from the Qur'an.
They also seem to simultaneously take the stance that the three prayers are dawn, dusk and the parts of the night close to dusk which I have also seen here on Free-minds. I also understand that stance as well.
As I have said my stance is to take verse with any ambiguity and take the stance that is congruent with verses that are starkly clear, hence fajr and and magrib, aka ishaa.
However, I am glad to see some Muslim much closer to the right path on this issue. It looks like they do 2 or 3 which to me says they've got it right.
Now, if I can wrap my head around the legitimacy of a hereditary Imamate and the legitimacy of how he is picked over other heirs...well...may I could start leaning their way. Although there are a lot of truths I'd like to see taken on by them and I'd like to see a consistent stance on the hadeeth, although it seems, as most Shia's, that they recognize the flaws of the hadeeth as religious authority, although I don't see a consistent approach (as of yet) with the idea of historical authority. And whereas there is nothing wrong Persian, Urdu and other languages I always think it is best to stick to Classical Arabic and in particular Quranic concepts linked to Classical Arabic terms.
Last but not least there is Ali. We have an issue with including or beloved prophet (saas) in declarations of testimony, and for good reason. So, whereas I may be able to accept a Wasiyyah of the last prophet in his declaration of the wilaayah of Ali (because he was extremely qualified and the best man for the job) I cannot see that as necessary to verbally include in my acts of worship to Allah
In the end, I think they are on the right track with Salaat. Any ideas guys? These were the Muslims who founded all of the earliest Islamic Universities. Any thoughts?
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Peace As-Salaatayn and everyone,
Interesting information. I recommend the post below.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601309.msg261289#msg261289
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Those of you who believe in two Salaat? Any dreams, plans, wishes to form an organization or community?
Salaam
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Personally, I'm not that interested in forming a physical community. It may be nice but in my view its not necessary to further the "Quran based islam" cause, or at least it is only one of many avenues that could help do this.
An organisation is an ok idea, but even an informal collaboration of people can achieve much. Also I do not think consensus of views is necessary prior to undertaking positive ventures - I know this from experience. There is plenty we can do, if we can be bothered to do it that is.
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Wakas,
Why not a physical community? Is that not part of the Quranic call?
Salaam
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Personally, I'm not that interested in forming a physical community. It may be nice but in my view its not necessary to further the "Quran based islam" cause, or at least it is only one of many avenues that could help do this.
An organisation is an ok idea, but even an informal collaboration of people can achieve much. Also I do not think consensus of views is necessary prior to undertaking positive ventures - I know this from experience. There is plenty we can do, if we can be bothered to do it that is.
That is true.
Salaam
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Wakas,
I don't understand your perspective.
Salaam.
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HP_TECH,
Thank you for responding. I second your perspective 100%. You echoed my exact belief on the issue.
Salaam
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ASA,
So I may be changing my mind guys. Based on Surah Al-Shams we are told that that when the sun is covered it is night time. wal-layli idhaa yaghshaa-haa.
With that said, atraafu-n-nahaaar or tarafaayyinahaar cannot mean dawn and dusk, because dawn and dusk are part of the layl and not the nahaar.
That has led me to look at taraf. So far, I have seen that taraf has a a lot of meanings, among them the very hours of the day, but one of its meanings has to do with the end or later parts of something using the terms both muntahaa and bu3d.
Having said that, the issue of dulooku-sh-shamsi and tarafayyinahaar gives us two prayer times during the daytime in the afternoon. These prayers are to be performed during the first part of the afternoon known in older times as noon (dhuhr) and the second part of the afternoon known as afternoon (3asr).
So here duloooku-shams can be specified into 2 times. When the sun starts to decline in the sky (all of afternoon) and sundown. The Afternoon is then further specified by its two parts being tarafayyun-nahaar or the two later parts of the daylight known as dhuhr (early afternoon) and 3asr (late afternoon).
Having said this this opens up the reality of a perfectly valid argument for salaatu-dh-dhuhr and salaatul-3asr.
Salaam
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Peace,
I agree that there are two required times for "al mumineen" to establish "al salat" - dawn and evening. I agree with Wakas' understanding of 11114, which cleared up ambiguity and some other far-fetched opinions on the verse.
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Peace,
I agree that there are two required times for "al mumineen" to establish "al salat" - dawn and evening. I agree with Wakas' understanding of 11114, which cleared up ambiguity and some other far-fetched opinions on the verse.
The above linked thread makes it clear
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.0 -
as per my understanding two regular salats are out there salat ul fajar and salat ul isha... sunset and sunrise
but look in it scientifically and sometimes u need to use little bit hints provided by God.
everything is in pair 36 36
see the number of verse amazing pair as well but there are two more things which are good to pray its like there are two more middle contact prayer if u considerate as plural make a plural with tajjad night prayer
now u get a pair 2 regular prayers and two middle prayer one is asar one is tajjad
one is in pair with day time orher one is in pair with night time,,, I m just doing a pairing science I may be wrong..only Allah hold full grip on everything
