TWO PHYSICAL RITUALS OF SALAAT (LET'S TALK)
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All I am saying is that 4102 can still be a freeform Salaat. I don't see the issue as an 'either or' issue. If we understand the prayer here to be a formatted prayer made in unison then we must be able to admit that such a conclusion is an assumption that is more conjecture than actual fact.
Peace
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Peace As-Salaatayn,
Taro, so what is your opinion on how it should be done?
You can read about my views on how to do/perform Salat in this post.
Could you respond to the following points?
I have decided to only respond to one of the points (number 2) in your post. Because my current knowledge is little/limited regarding the other points in your post.
- Sajdah
Sajdah is to make sujood once. Sujood is either the final position after bowing down to the ground or the act of bowing down. Whereas Rukoo' seems to be the actual act of bending/bowing down. Lisanul-Arab and Mu'jam Mufradaat al-faadhul-Qur'aaan (MMAQ) mention leaning trees being referred to as saajid. Also we know that sajada has a meaning of 'paying homage/respect' as well. Camels with chins to the ground are also saajid or in sujood. As a matter of fact the epithet of falling to the chins is idiomatic and comes from camels who when prostrate have their chins on the ground. When the Quran uses this for people it is not literal but refers to having our faces fully on the ground. It's like saying that someone is 'high tailing it' in common American usage. People don't have tails and their are not high up when we are running away. But this is an idiomatic expression that comes from deer, who when running away have their tails high up. No need to put our chins on the ground, just our faces.
You can read about my views on Sujud in this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607327.msg376442#msg376442
Also, I would also like to share an article about Sujud with you. I deeply recommend this article.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606706.0
You might find it interesting and/or insightful.
- Sajdah
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All I am saying is that 4102 can still be a freeform Salaat. I don't see the issue as an 'either or' issue. If we understand the prayer here to be a formatted prayer made in unison then we must be able to admit that such a conclusion is an assumption that is more conjecture than actual fact.
As-Salaaatayn, do you believe that the word Salat only means prayer?
It might be possible that one meaning of the word Salat is Ritual prayer. But the Quran seems to suggest that the word Salat has more than one meaning. I recommend this post.
I also recommend this post.
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Yes, I am aware of the term's other meanings blessing, petition, eulogy and even obligation in addition to ritual prayer.
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So is this it? Are these the only folks here who believe in two Salaat's per day?
Wakas,
Did I address your questions in a satisfactory fashion?
Taro Hiroshi?
Salaam
Anwar -
Wakas,
Did I address your questions in a satisfactory fashion?
Yes, thanks. Note this doesn't mean I necessarily agree however.
Perhaps we can move onto some other aspects, e.g.
Do you have a view on whom The Quran commands the regular/timed salat upon, e.g. mumin only, muslim only, both etc.
Do you consider quran al fajr = salat al fajr?
The nature of janaabah?
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Peace As-Salaatayn,
So is this it? Are these the only folks here who believe in two Salaat's per day?
I don't know if these questions are for me or for Wakas. Or for both of us. Anyway, I thought I'd answer your questions.
Yes, it seems that only I, you and Wakas believe in two Salat per day. So, I guess there is no hope for us. Perhaps we are doomed to a life of ascetism or something. We might as well become mysterious mountain men or reckless recluses P Lol. Just joking.
As far as I know, only a minority believe in two Salat per day. I'd like to share two posts with you and other members in FM.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15112.msg380658#msg380658
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607863.msg378336#msg378336
Did I address your questions in a satisfactory fashion?
Taro Hiroshi?
Yes, you did. Thank you.
Peace.
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Do you have a view on whom The Quran commands the regular/timed salat upon, e.g. mumin only, muslim only, both etc.
To be honest I do not make a huge difference between mu'min and muslim. Both can carry a meaning of munqaad, or submissive, although each word has its own set of distinct meanings besides this common meaning (not to mention the somewhat common meaning of 'to make safe for muslim and to make safe for mu'min . In the case of the bedouin Arabs I think that the Arabs made peace with the last prophet (saas) but they had not believed in him. So they should not have claimed such a thing.
Do you consider quran al fajr = salat al fajr?
I think Quraanal-fajr is just that, the reading of dawn. I believe this can be satisfied with reading during the Salaat or outside of the Salaat during dawn.
With that said the nasb status of quranal-fajr can be giving this word very special attention and/or command status. It can also be a 7aal, of adverbial nature, indicating that the recital/reading be done during the fajr prayer connecting from the earlier 'aqimi-s-salaata lidulooki-sh-shams.' wa + nasb can also indicate 'with' so 'pray at the rubbing of the sun (on the horizon) to the dark of night along with reading/recital at dawn.
In short I believe this requirement can be fulfilled within and/or outside of actual prayer.
Salaam,
AnwarThe nature of janaabah?
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Sorry I forgot about this question.
The nature of janaabah?
These are the states of Janaabah from my study of the Quran.
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waste (Fecal and urine) leaving the body. (one washes ones filthy parts after going, this fulfills ghusl/ightisaal as well as a full bath. We find ghusl being used for washing the arms in the verses about wudu' and not referring to a full bath. Ightisaal is jut reflexive use).
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Menstruation The verses that refer to menstruation refer to women who are rid of it as entering a state of tahaarah (literally yat-hurna). The purpose of washing before prayer is tahaarah. Because menstruation cannot be taken away with washing, women who are menstruating are not in a state of tahaarah and therefore should not pray because they are in a state of janaabah. Non-ritual prayer, yes. Ritual prayer, no.
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General filthiness that is repulsive as janaabah in its root refers to states of being that one wishes to stay away from or that will cause other people to want to stay away from you.
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Sexual intercourse or activity. The respective parts can be washed to obtain purity.
Salaam
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Wakas,
I think that is fair. I think only two are obligatory but there is nothing wrong with more than that.
Salaam
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Peace Wakas and everyone,
Assumption. I know this is not the case.
You have taken what I wrote out of context (though I doubt that you did it on purpose). It was a joke Wakas. Hence why I said "Just joking" at the end of my paragraph. I recommend reading my post one more time.
Let me share a quote from my post with you.
Yes, it seems that only I, you and Wakas believe in two Salat per day. So, I guess there is no hope for us. Perhaps we are doomed to a life of ascetism or something. We might as well become mysterious mountain men or reckless recluses P Lol. Just joking.
As far as I know, only a minority believe in two Salat per day. I'd like to share two posts with you and other members in FM.
As you can see at the end of the paragraph in the quote above, I have written the following words Just joking. Hence I was just joking. This argument is further supported by what I have written in the next (second) paragraph in the quote above. In the next (second) paragraph in the quote above, I have written the following words As far as I know, only a minority believe in two Salat per day. Is that an assumption too? Or is it an irrefutable and undeniable fact? I think that these questions are worth pondering upon. That being said, perhaps the joke was inappropriate. If you think the joke was inappropriate, then I apologize. When I made that joke, my intention was good, not bad. And God, the almighty, the all-knowing, is my witness. If my intention was bad and I was making fun of you and As-Salaatayn, I wouldn't mention myself in that joke. But as you know, I mentioned you, As-Salaatayn and myself in that joke. This fact proves that I wasn't making fun of you or As-Salaatayn. On the contrary, I respect both of you and like both of you a lot. And I really appreciate your efforts for the Quranic community. I have read many of your posts and many of As-Salaatayns's post in this forum (when his nick name was PROGOD). If the truth be told, I have learned new things and important lessons about life from both of you. And both of you have helped me much in my journey/quest to find the truth. I am eternally grateful for that.
By the way, some other members on FM that have helped me much in my journey have been Edip, Layth, Ayman, Arnold, Tanveer and mquran. These members on FM, are members that I respect and like a lot.
Keep up the good work.
Best wishes,
Taro H.
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I have been on and off of Quranist forums because of the volatility of Quranist circles and the frustration of not being able to come to a common understanding and start something organized and material for Quranists.
Salaam Anwar,
I feel you bro, but the enlightenment from the kitab has told me that this is something natural.
1784 Say, "Each works according to his own, but your Lord is most knowing of who is best guided in way."
You can imagine if Nabi Muhammad was saying this (and it must be), there were no centralized understanding on Quran interpretation.
And this verse has been sent down while Nabi Muhammad was still alive
37 ...As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow that which is of a similitude, seeking discord, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge;
Even the presence of Nabi Muhammad was not prevented the discord of the interpretation.
So how we supposed to behave?
2104 O you who believe, do not say "Raina"," but say "Unzurna," and listen. For the rejecters is a painful retribution.
Raina
Ra-Alif-Ya = to see/think/hold, in opinion of, perceive, judge, consider, know.Unzurna
Nun-Za-Ra = to see, look at, glance, gaze, observe, behold, consider, regard, listen to, be patient towards, wait, contemplate, grant respite, put off, scrutinise, show kindness, examine, search, reflect. nazara - the look with affection, to perplex, dazzle.So we don't need to judge other's opinion, but we can observe what he/she does and what he/she thinks.
This is just to satisfy ourselves in the hunt for the guidance. The guidance is only for ourselves, as individual, not for others.
3941 We have sent down to you the Book for the people with the truth. Then, whoever is guided is guided for himself, and whoever goes astray goes astray to his own loss. And you are not a keeper over them.
When you try to convince others about your findings, most likely you will start to argue and will end up with 'agree to disagree', even worst.
It will be different if you ask someone in term of the searching for the truth for yourself than in effort to break other's people argument. Maybe because their arguments is contradict with what you've already believe in.
So let see how all of this make any sense
7516 Do not move your tongue with it to make haste.
7517 It is for Us to gather and relate it.
7518 So when We relate it, you shall follow its revelation.
7519 Then it is for Us to explain it.2187 and seek what God has written for you
2185 A month, scorched by heat, in which the Qur'an was sent down, as a guide to the people and as clarifications of the guidance and the criterion
1321 And those who connect what God has ordered to be connected, and they are concerned towards their Lord and they fear a terrible reckoning.
All the works to join the hudan (guidance) and its bayyinati (clarification of guidance) will takes time.
And most likely we were not started at the same time. We will be at the different level of understanding, and could be different in interest, background, etc. So that's why 1784 make any sense.
2198 .. So when you abound (afadtum) from the elevated place (arafah)
And if you found something that raising your level of understanding..
2199 Then you shall return (afada) from where the people return , and seek the forgiveness of God; God is surely Forgiving, Merciful.
Then you should go back from the beginning, to update the understanding of the related verses.
But once again, your level of understanding is not the same with others, Please be aware of that. So it's true, the guidance is just for ourselves, not others.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
5155 And remind, for the reminder benefits the believers.
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones
So keep posting brothers and let other people decide which one is better for them.
Salam
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Peace Wakas,
I assumed your joke referred to the previous sentence, not the entire paragraph.
In any case, it's no big deal, but helpful in the lesson of pitfalls in making assumptions.
We all make assumptions from time to time (including me). I have made numerous assumptions in my lifetime. And many of them have been wrong. Anyway, thanks for being understanding/understandable.
May the God bless you.
Best wishes,
Taro H.
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Peace As-Salaatayn,
So any parishioner or devout person who goes to a holy place and prays where other people are praying at and around the same time is praying along or with those people. They are worshiping with others who worship. This worship CAN be in unison but, as I see it, it can also be in the same time and place.
Do you believe that the word the word Ibadah means worship? As far as I know, the arabic word Ibadah is derived from the root word abd, which means servant. Thus, it seems that the word Ibadah means service. Currently, I believe that the word Ibadah means service. But I might be wrong. So I am open to the idea that the word Ibadah means worship. If you have any evidence which suggests that the word Ibadah means worship, then I am willing to examine it.
Have you read this article? I have shared it in a post on FM in the past, by the way. If you haven't read it, I recommend reading it. Because I think it's an interesting article. Do you agree or disagree with the views of the author of that article?
By the way, what is your interpretation of verse 919 in the Quran?
Quran 919 Do you, perchance, regard the giving of water to pilgrims and the tending of the Inviolable House of Worship as being equal to one who believes in God and the Last Day and strives hard in God's cause? These are not equal in the sight of God.* And God does not grace with His guidance people who do wrong.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and views/opinions.
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Taro,
I'd like to give my conclusions on 'Ibadah and 3abd according to what I have read in Lisanul-Arab, Mu'jam Mufradaat al-faadhul-Quraan and the Qur'an. I will list them.
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Arabic words have more than one meaning so we can't always look for one single, all comprehensive meaning but with that said
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The Quran, speaking about a slave says 3abdun mamlook. So despite what Lisaanul-Arab says (and he is not exactly wrong)
there is a kind of abd that is not a mamlook. -
Mamlook means to be owned, which is pretty exclusively what we mean by slave.
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And slaves have owners. Rabb means owner of property.
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A rabb is the owner of a mamlook. and a mamlook is 'milk' i.e. 'property.'
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Lisaanul-Arab has 3ibiddaa as a plural of 3abd meaning 'poor people' or 'destitute people.'
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Mu'jam Mufradaat Al-faadhul-Quran specifically says that 3abd is equivalent to the 'mudhallal' or the 'mutadhallal' which means someone who is made low in status, who has made himself low in status or who just is or has become low in status. It is more accurately translated as a 'subject,' in most cases and not exactly 'servants.' Lisanul-Arab talks about hwo in some kingdoms all of the 'citizenry' were actually 3abeed/3ibaad. This is how we use the word 'subjects.'
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'abd, 3aabid and 3abada, the verb, more accurately mean 'to be a subject of something or in some way.' Poor people become the subjects of richer people because of their dependence on them. Some tribes become the subjects of other tribes, etc. etc.
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So one can be an 3abd or an 3aabid without being an owned slave because of one's low station, low status or destitute circumstance in life.
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A worshipper is an 3abd/3aabid in the way that he subjects himself to the thing that he worships. A mamlook is an 3abd because he has been subjected through being bought, sold or generally taken as property. This is why prisoners of war, although later taken as mamlooks if bought or sold, are called sabaayaa and not mamlook.
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Subjection usually translates into service but it does not equal service exactly.
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So our 'Ibaadah to Allah is our subjection to him. That is why it can and must translate into all aspects of our lives.
Salaam,
Anwar -
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Taro,
I'd like to give my conclusions on 'Ibadah and 3abd according to what I have read in Lisanul-Arab, Mu'jam Mufradaat al-faadhul-Quraan and the Qur'an. I will list them.
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Arabic words have more than one meaning so we can't always look for one single, all comprehensive meaning but with that said
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The Quran, speaking about a slave says 3abdun mamlook. So despite what Lisaanul-Arab says (and he is not exactly wrong)
there is a kind of abd that is not a mamlook. -
Mamlook means to be owned, which is pretty exclusively what we mean by slave.
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And slaves have owners. Rabb means owner of property.
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A rabb is the owner of a mamlook. and a mamlook is 'milk' i.e. 'property.'
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Lisaanul-Arab has 3ibiddaa as a plural of 3abd meaning 'poor people' or 'destitute people.'
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Mu'jam Mufradaat Al-faadhul-Quran specifically says that 3abd is equivalent to the 'mudhallal' or the 'mutadhallal' which means someone who is made low in status, who has made himself low in status or who just is or has become low in status. It is more accurately translated as a 'subject,' in most cases and not exactly 'servants.' Lisanul-Arab talks about hwo in some kingdoms all of the 'citizenry' were actually 3abeed/3ibaad. This is how we use the word 'subjects.'
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'abd, 3aabid and 3abada, the verb, more accurately mean 'to be a subject of something or in some way.' Poor people become the subjects of richer people because of their dependence on them. Some tribes become the subjects of other tribes, etc. etc.
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So one can be an 3abd or an 3aabid without being an owned slave because of one's low station, low status or destitute circumstance in life.
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A worshipper is an 3abd/3aabid in the way that he subjects himself to the thing that he worships. A mamlook is an 3abd because he has been subjected through being bought, sold or generally taken as property. This is why prisoners of war, although later taken as mamlooks if bought or sold, are called sabaayaa and not mamlook.
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Subjection usually translates into service but it does not equal service exactly.
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So our 'Ibaadah to Allah is our subjection to him. That is why it can and must translate into all aspects of our lives.
Salaam,
AnwarGood post.
It seems to me that also exchanges on the Qur'an are to some extent subject to fashion. Lately I hav observed that "worship" is out fo fashion, something that must be get rid of, as if it ws some dirty word. The Qur'an wants us to serve God and not to worship Him (or She or It).
That surprises me. How could anybody get round not serving God? Nobody can not to serve God. If God meant us to serve him we annot but serve him. ven if we do not serve Him, we do serve him, because that would mean that we ar meant to serve Hin not serving Him,we would be doing it for Him.
On top of that Gd needs and requires absolutuly nothing. There is nothing we can give God, there is nothing we can do for God, anything we do will be for us.. To pretend that we can be of any use for God, is mking us His associates.
What we can do is ACKNOWLEDGE that we are HIS, wholly completely and without escape. And that is, as far as I can judge, worship, not service, worship.
Service we can do to other persons or creatures or things. Of course if we do that considering it s part of our subjection to God it would be an act of worship, but if we are sincer and consciuos, anything in our lives would be worship, our whole life would be worship.
Also, we have to be careful of how we pick meanings for qur'anic words. In general, in different languages, it is rare that any word used for translation has exactly, exatly the same rang of meaning as in th original. That only happens in scientific trms which are agreed upon to mean exactly somthing in that realm of science even if out of it it may have other meanings.
Salaam
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Indeed, thanks Anwar...will be using this to refine some aspects.
It seems to me that also exchanges on the Qur'an are to some extent subject to fashion. Lately I hav observed that "worship" is out fo fashion, something that must be get rid of, as if it ws some dirty word.
Yep seen it happen on occasion, I figure it's throwing the baby out with the bath water thing that happens sometimes.
