Quran is Clear Versus Allegorical in Verse 3:7
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Peace Imraan,
The plural simply refers to those being described.
If you refuse to put a full stop after allah, then the subject of "they say ................" will become "allah and those well founded in knowledge".
The "our" in our lord would thus include "allah and those well founded in knowledge" thus indicating "allah's lord".
If you do put a full stop after allah, then "our" will only include "those well founded in knowledge" but then it will lead to the contradiction explained in my post.
If you cannot comprehend such a simple thing then moot point discussing this further.
Please go through the following thread in past about this issue of where the full stop should be and how it becomes nonsensical if there is no full stop after allah. Read Pazuzu's opening post and Lobster's final reply which he quotes from Ayman
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13181.msg109532#msg109532
Peace
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Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,
put a semi-colon here at the end, first of all ........ "AL-LAH and those well founded in Knowledge;"
they (=i.e. not AL-LAH Himself, but only those well founded in Knowledge" say ..............this makes perfect sense logically and grammatically,
and I cannot see anything (=no logical barrier & no grammatical barrier) that would prevent this correct understanding
which makes perfect sense, in the Light of whole QURAN TESTAMENT above.We should understand the QURAN perfectly in the Context/Light of whole QURAN,
not by some "man-made traditional rules, principles or/and prejudices."Remain in peace/salaam.
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Salaam/Peace LastDay3,
If you put a semi colon at the end of "allah and those well founded in knowledge", then "they" will still refer to "allah and those well founded in knowledge", making "our lord" refer to "allah's and those well founded in knowledge's lord" which is nonsensical.
You have to put a full stop after allah to avoid this nonsensical absurdity. But then if you put full stop after allah it will lead to the contradiction mentioned in my first post on this thread.
So either the contradiction or allah has a rabb. No way around it.
Read the thread I referenced above for detailed explanation of where full stop should be according to a famous Arabic language professor and linguist by the name of Ayman (quoted by Lobster in last post). You can search for Ayman and send him a pm to discuss this full stop issue.
Here is Ayman's info (I am making it very easy for you)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=11
If you still cannot comprehend this EXTREMELY SIMPLE thing, then moot point discussing this further with you.
Remain in salaam/peace
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7- HE is the ONE Who sent down to you the Written-Document,
from which there are Firmly-Established Signs (=Ayatun Muhkamatun),
they are the Essence of the Written-Document (=Ummu al-Kitab),
and others which are Vaguely-Established (Signs) (=(Ayatun) Mutashabihatun).As for those who have a crookedness in their hearts, they will go after that which are of Vaguely-Established-Ones (=ma tashabaha minhu);
seeking (to create) confusion, and seeking (to ask for) its interpretation.But none know its interpretation except AL-LAH and those who are well founded in Knowledge;
they (=i.e. those who are well founded in Knowledge) say"We have believed in it;
(for) all --(of those Firmly-Established Signs and Vaguely-Established Signs mentioned above)--
are from our LORD."Because none can take-heed except those who possess intelligence.
28- ...... It is not for a Messenger to come with any "Sign" --(whether a Firmly-Established Sign or a Vaguely-Established Sign
as clearly emphasized in the above Verse, in the first place)-- except with the Permission of AL-LAH;
(because) for each course there is a Written-Decree.29- (Because) AL-LAH neutralizes what HE wishes (as/of those Vaguely-Established Signs above)
and fixes (as/of those Firmly-Established Signs above),
because with HIM is the Essence of the Written-Document (=Ummu al-Kitab) --(as clearly emphasized
in the above Verse, in the first place,
in this most specific respect therein again, in the very first paragraph of this Verse =3/7 above).(QURAN TESTAMENT 3/7 = 13/28-29)
So, I will give that Perfect Example
that will clearly and unmistakably show us what has been meant abovewith regard to this Most CURIOUS & MIRACULOUS Phenomenon above
in my next post, soon, inshaAL-LAH.Remain in peace/salaam.
Salaam/Peace TruthSeeker11,
I recognize Only ONE "Most FAMOUS And RENOWNED
ARABIC LANGUAGE CREATOR And PROFESSOR And LIGUIST of All Time,"
from Eternity to Eternity = AL-LAH (55/1-2 = 43/3)Therefore, that Clear Understanding highlighted (by big and bold letters in that quote) above
makes perfect sense logically and grammatically,
and again I cannot see anything (=no logical barrier & no grammatical barrier) that would prevent this Clear Understanding
which makes perfect sense, in the Context/Light of whole QURAN TESTAMENT above.So please, also wait for that "Perfect Example" I have mentioned above,
we will again understand it Crystal Clear, soon, inshaAL-LAH.Remain in peace/salaam.
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Peace truthseeker,
Why does "yaqooloona" require any kind of pronoun added to mean "they say"?
Why can the plural not refer to those grounded in knowledge?
Simply answering these questions would make for a more productive discussion.
Imraan
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peace,
they are parables, examples, similarities,
hence mutashabiha
in my limited unederstanding the part says
except ALLH and those founded in knowledge, they (those founded in knowlege) say we trust in it...
is there any problem with this?
the yaquluna refers to the rasequn fi Elmi
would it not otherwise usualy be wa yaquluna ar-rasequn fil Elmi if he meant it the other way around?
and would we not otherwise not be able to understand any parable, god does not speak vanity, he speaks so that those who wish to learn and take heed may.
i trust that god has taught me much by way of example/parable. there are many in the quran and previous scriptures, and i, for those of them that god has given me some understanding, find they are the perfect examples, with my limited understanding. the gospel is full of them, and shows clearly that those who had disease in there hearts could not understand them, but those God has given knowledge of could. eg the 'pharasies and hypocrites' often asked 'what does he mean', and often he would reply along the lines of 'do you have no understanding'?
the same can be seen in the quran.
it is only when i firmly trust (amanu) in them, and God, that i can understand somewhat, otherwise if i try and SEEK an interpretation, it is distorted. but when I TRUST in gods interpretation, inshaAllah, he gives me insight, but through no power or effort of my own.
this is something i trust. that when i let go and ASK god, InshaAllah he gives me insight, sometimes instantly, sometimes hours, days even years later.
ask and ye shall recieve.
i am no expert in grammar, whatever i do know is not through my own effort or understanding, it is a gift of god. whatever i do not know or am incorrect, it is my own pride or lack of understanding.
Alhamdullilahi rabbil aAlameen
peace
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Format and organization is an important aspect in the criteria for evaluation of books. It needs to be seen that does the arrangement make sense and can be referenced distinctly. Miscellany of Qur'aan comprises of two types of Verbal Passages as is generally the arrangement in a Manual, User's Guide. Creator or manufacturer of a quality product provides a manual that contains instructions for its operation and information about its structure, mutual relationships of its constituents and with outer world. Manual also contains instructions for its upkeep, maintenance and troubleshooting when problem arises. Man is perhaps the finest and top of the line "Product" ever created. Man has the best of existing machines. Man once created is however a self developing and operating machine. First type of Verbal passages incorporate injunctions and instructions for aright conduct in time and space; and lesson-providers historical narratives and declarations. Psychology and conduct of human beings is shaped by the desires, aspirations, and appetites of three parts of his body, the chest, belly and genital area. Therefore, these verbal passages are primarily concerned with the aright management and disciplining of these body parts of an individual in the society.
And second type of verbal passages of the miscellany of Grand Qur'aan are like that part of a User's Guide which gives information about the surroundings and area of operation of a system. It is about the nurture; environment of its audience-primarily human beings.
Worst enemy of Man is Shai'taan and those men who are his brothers. He and his brothers among humans are primarily Psychological Manipulators who socially influence that aims to change the perception or behaviour of others through underhanded deceptive tactics. One of their techniques is "Feigning confusion". In the context of sub-division of Miscellany of Qur'aan, such pseudo intellectuals are exposed by indicating their psyche and attitude towards Qur'aan, and their agenda.
Format and Organization
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Thanks to all for the input. Honestly speaking, the analysis from Hizbullah, Layth, and Huruf are making sense. I'll explain how I am seeing the verse now.
As noted by Hizbullah, the clue for me lies within the prayer of the men of understanding coming right after 37.
Our Lord, surely You will gather the people for a Day about which there is no doubt. Indeed, Allah does not fail in His promise."39
How I saw it using Huruf's analysis Humans are only notified of what day of judgement is. There is no way for us to clearly see it with our eyes. Hence, we do not have interpretation of it. But we must believe it is on the horizon.
Then Allah says
like the custom of the people of Pharaoh and those before them. They denied Our signs, so Allah seized them for their sins. And Allah is severe in penalty.311It echos Layth's
they are comparable to the Hukum verses (they seem like laws) when in fact they are not "obey the messenger, preserve the salat, let women cover, etc..
The twisted people will flock to the "comparable" verses to enforce them as a law when they were never a law (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Iran) and thus distort God's system.
Am I right?
Interestingly, we do not have any way to know the definite meaning of Allah's will, but it is mentioned several times in the Quran. Allah tells us to ponder on it here
Already there has been for you a sign in the two armies which met - one fighting in the cause of Allah and another of disbelievers. They saw them twice their number by eyesight. But Allah supports with His victory whom He wills. Indeed in that is a lesson for those of vision.313
But of course, in mainstream Islam it is Allah's will that women must wear hijab, sheikhs can take his place to come up with barbaric laws and tag them as "Islamic" and if anyone sees this as a threat and tries to take action against it, worry not! Its a test coming from Allah's will.
I posted this 37 contradiction a while ago in this forum and had a lengthy discussion on it but no one was able to resolve it. It is a blatant and "clear" contradiction. On one hand "clear revelations" (299, 1015, 1973, 2216, 2272, 241, 2949, 3443, 4525, 467, 579, 6511). On the other hand acknowledging presence of verses that "no one knows its interpretation except allah".
Say what? I am afraid there is no way around this one.
Welcome back Truthseeker, what do you think about what I said above?
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Peace reel,
Welcome back Truthseeker, what do you think about what I said above?
Thank you!
The problem is 37 indicates no one except allah knows about interpretation of the mutashabihat signs, not mutashabihat words or phrases. So COMPLETE AYAT cannot be interpreted by humans. This contradicts with the claim of "clear signs" in numerous signs that I referenced. Additionally, this book is supposed to be a guide for the forethoughtful (22). How can a guide contain verses that cannot be interpreted? Does that make any sense?
Suppose your teacher tells you in class to read a certain book to prepare for your test. Then the teacher tells you that book contains sentences you cannot understand. What would you think of that? Why would the author include sentences you cannot understand? If the clear sentences are enough to pass the test then why include sentences that cannot be understood by anyone but the author?
Of course the overall interpretation of 39 is clear that without a doubt people will be gathered for a day, without knowing the exact interpretation of the word "day", so it won't fall under mutashabihat. Just like overall interpretation of many signs with the word "allah" in them is clear without knowing the exact interpretation of "allah". For a sign to be mutashabihat, its overall complete interpretation of the whole sign is impossible.
Peace
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Peace reel,
Thank you!
The problem is 37 indicates no one except allah knows about interpretation of the mutashabihat signs, not mutashabihat words or phrases. So COMPLETE AYAT cannot be interpreted by humans. This contradicts with the claim of "clear signs" in numerous signs that I referenced. Additionally, this book is supposed to be a guide for the forethoughtful (22). How can a guide contain verses that cannot be interpreted? Does that make any sense?
Suppose your teacher tells you in class to read a certain book to prepare for your test. Then the teacher tells you that book contains sentences you cannot understand. What would you think of that? Why would the author include sentences you cannot understand? If the clear sentences are enough to pass the test then why include sentences that cannot be understood by anyone but the author?
Of course the overall interpretation of 39 is clear that without a doubt people will be gathered for a day, without knowing the exact interpretation of the word "day", so it won't fall under mutashabihat. Just like overall interpretation of many signs with the word "allah" in them is clear without knowing the exact interpretation of "allah". For a sign to be mutashabihat, its overall complete interpretation of the whole sign is impossible.
Peace
I am sorry, I did mean verses about Allah's will instead of the words and phrases.
Do you think the traditionalists are capable of understanding this verse?
Allah has promised those who have believed among you and done righteous deeds that He will surely grant them succession upon the earth just as He granted it to those before them and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has preferred for them and that He will surely substitute for them, after their fear, security, they worship Me, not associating anything with Me. But whoever disbelieves after that - then those are the defiantly disobedient.2455
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Peace reel,
Their understanding of this verse is causing so much fasaad on this Earth, so obviously something is wrong with their understanding. They think they are among the aamanoo and doing good deeds but they are not, as evidenced by their violation of clear fundamental signs of the quran in almost every aspect of their life. So I don't think this sign will come true for them.
As far as whether they are capable of understanding, of course they are, because all humans have been given the inner conscience, mind, reason and ability to gain knowledge, and consciously connect with the infinite Creator but it appears they choose not to use these faculties.
Peace
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Okay, it seems that the break is being problematically handled by the traditionalists for which the translation of the verse got messed up.
"One reading, rejected by the majority of Commentators, but accepted by Mujahid and others, would not make a break at the point here marked Waq Lazim, but would run the two sentences together. In that case the construction would run "No one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firm in knowledge. They say", etc."http//www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/3/7/decisive-vs-allegorical-verses-and-supplication-of-the-believers
The problem is that things like day of judgement can't be studied by men of understanding who in other verses are pretty much described as researchers and thoughtful.
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peace t11, all,
You are quick to claim contradiction but what you claim is not actually what 37 is saying.
So COMPLETE AYAT cannot be interpreted by humans.
Yes they can, you just interpreted it in this thread. Your claim is empirically refuted.
Perhaps you meant to say "humans cannot be certain they have the correct interpretation of all ayat".
This contradicts with the claim of "clear signs" in numerous signs that I referenced.
I hope you realise "clear" is a subjective term.
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Peace
First I think we need to determine what are the foundations of the book.
Then what are the similitudes/allegorical.
Then maybe some can learn why Allah is correct when he states there are no
contradictions!police
I agree, it seems many people here lack understanding of what a SIMILITUDE is...
Do people not look around themselves and see that the entire universe is full of them? The animals, what people do, how they live, the sun and moon, night and day..
Do people not reflect within themselves? or did God just make things the way they are because they look pretty to him? does he need the universe? NO. He created life to test US. everything in this universe is an example for us to learn from...
giveup
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Peace.
At Night, there is no light and we cannot see, unless we have a source of light. In the Daytime there is light and we can, unless we have our eyes closed.
Do you understand the similitude i am presenting?
If you do, i just proved that a human being can indeed understand a similitude.
If you think you do, but it is not what i clearly showing for those with understanding, then this proves you are seeking an interpretation suitable to you, that fits what you want, not what i intend.
If you do not, then ask God for more understanding.
The quran has many of theese, if fact more or less, prehaps different but similar, the one i just presented.
Peace.
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Peace Wakas, all,
Perhaps you meant to say "humans cannot be certain they have the correct interpretation of all ayat".
LOGICAL FALLACY OF STRAWMAN.
Huh? Who was talking about all ayat? Was not expecting such carelessness from you nope
By complete ayat I was referring to mutashabihat ayat if you cared to read the context of what I was saying. 37 says no one except allah knows the interpretation of mutashabihat ayaat. Numerous verses say "clear revelations" obviously referring to all revelations. Signs impossible to be interpreted by humans cannot be clear.
GLARING CONTRADICTION AND DISCREPANCIES ON MANY LEVELS.
- Clear revelations versus signs impossible for humans to interpret.
- A book of guidance for forethoughtful (21-2) that contains signs impossible for forethoughtful to interpret.
- Use mind/reason (numerous versus) ------> how can you use mind/reason on signs impossible to be interpreted by humans?
- How will the signs in the horizons and within ourselves verify the truth of something humans cannot even interpret? (4153)
"Clear" is not subjective. Your saying it is does not make it subjective.
Next time I will not reply to careless posts. Go ahead, have the final word
Peace
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@ reel thank you for bring up such an important topic handshake
He created life to test US.
Yes
3/7 Those who have perversity in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to
create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning.What does this test (daraba) tell a man to do?
daraba hmm beat the wife or separate/ create distance, cool off period/ talk/ sympathize.
Such is the test of Allah! hail39/18 is a direct connection to 3/7
39/18 Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and
those are people of understanding. yespeace
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peace t11,
Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you. You have incorrectly equated the following
37 says no one except allah knows the interpretation of mutashabihat ayaat.
and
signs impossible to interpret
Do not take my word for it. Ask others if the two statements above are equivalent or not.
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Peace Wakas,
LOGICAL FALLACY OF STRAWMAN
When did I say "signs impossible to interpret"?
Why are you cutting off my sentences and misquoting me? Not good nope
If no one except allah knows their interpretation then they are impossible to be interpreted BY HUMANS.
If you are having difficulty comprehending simple English sentences then let me make it very easy for you to comprehend (hopefully)
GLARING CONTRADICTION AND DISCREPANCIES ON MANY LEVELS.
- Clear revelations (numerous signs) versus signs no one except allah can interpret which indicates humans cannot interpret those signs.
- A book of guidance for forethoughtful (21-2) that contains signs no one except allah can interpret which indicates the forethoughtful cannot interpret those signs.
- Use mind/reason (numerous versus) ------> how can you use mind/reason on signs no one except allah can interpret which indicates humans cannot interpret those signs?
- How will the signs in the horizons and within ourselves verify the truth of signs no one except allah can interpret which indicates humans cannot interpret those signs? (4153)
Peace
