Would you commit shirk if God told you so ?
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Because Iblis was one of the malaika... and the malaika had just questioned The Creator why He would place any corruptors while they sing His Glory and Praise Him.
The jinn were created from before, I strongly suspect they were the ones on earth transgressing.
Some call them reptilians
Scientists call them dinosaursWe should know better they are still here not extinct
Even in the sectarian interpretation of Quran you never see it directly stated "Ibless" is Malaika but it is an inference based on assumptions which have no obvious basis. You will not see Ibless is Malaika in Quran.
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Because Iblis was one of the malaika... and the malaika had just questioned The Creator why He would place any corruptors while they sing His Glory and Praise Him.
The jinn were created from before, I strongly suspect they were the ones on earth transgressing.
Some call them reptilians
Scientists call them dinosaursWe should know better they are still here not extinct
A lot of points to bring up
Iblis was of the jins (as stated in the Quran), the only reason that he was called out an Angel is that he was with the angels who had to prostrate to of Adam. Conclusion ? He was a Jinn and an Angel, with Jinn being his Nature and Angel being his status.The second point you brought up is quiet disturbing reptilians ? dinosaurs ? Such claims bring up clear contradictions with the following verse
2738 He said, "O commanders, which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me peacefully surrendering?"
2739 A powerful being from among the Jinn said, "I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy."
2740 One who had knowledge from the book said, "I will bring it to you before you blink." So when he saw it resting before him, he said, "This is from the grace of my Lord, so that He tests me whether I am thankful or whether I reject. As for he who is thankful, he is thankful for himself, and as for he who rejects, then my Lord is Rich, Bountiful."How could a Jinn transport a massive object with an unparallel speed ? Energy perhaps..E=M.C?
take any mass, give to it a speed of c? and it becomes an energy. Likewise, take any energy, divide it by c? and you get a mass...I'm no expert here but bottom line is this goes way beyond Dinosaurs. One thing is that Jinn cannot be perceived and one needs a Logic or "Wisdom" to get to reach out for them.Do you know that you have a Reptilian Brain core, just like every human being on Earth. And this brain core is responsible for things like wanting to eat, fornicate, and other lusts. Which God teaches us to not get attached to.
That's the "Jinn" concept of Man Of Faith, however, it still doesn't add up with many things such as the stated above. Also, they are called instincts and everyone has them even a sewer rat.
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Jinns/Reptilians/Dinosaurs is still here ?
Jinn not dinosaurs nor reptilians. Non corporeal ethereal beings hidden from your senses. That is what I am referring to. Interestingly the root jim nun nun in Arabic entails snake as well 2710 2831. In the Bible the Diablo/Iblis is also described as a serpent. Do you think it is a coincidence? Hence, with he understanding from Quran that jinn were created before us and perhaps inhabited the earth plane before us it is revealing to me that scientists of falsehood have claimed that Reptiles/Dinosaurs were dominant in the land before us and then went extinct...the shaytan always finds away to present the falsehood by twisting the truth a bit so you may drink of it and believe it. Keep studying.
And on what is your claim based on?
According to the Quran which as you have stated before you have not even finished. Go READ and stop making assumptions if you are a believer.
It is true that we are affected by desires but jinn are independent existing entities, agents.
How can I expect you to understand if you have not even finished The Reading... -
That's the "Jinn" concept of Man Of Faith, however, it still doesn't add up with many things such as the stated above. Also, they are called instincts and everyone has them even a sewer rat.
Yes, exactly. THE INSTINCTS. And now look at the 10 commandments
I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 2 6
Thou shalt have no other gods before me 3 7
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image 4?6 8?10
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain 7 11
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy 8?11 12?15
Honour thy father and thy mother 12 16
Thou shalt not kill 13 17
Thou shalt not commit adultery 14 18
Thou shalt not steal 15 19
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour 16 20
And...? )
Isn't it obvious, what are we fighting ? By following the commandments, you mostly fighting against your animal instincts. Isn't it obvious ?
You are mastering yourself. Mind over matter! -
And yeah. I see a very interesting tendency these days. People use a lot of words which they just accepted as the truth, without even clarifying its legitimacy first.
Please have a look
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMjEmSMN-yY
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMpVZ_p_7Bc
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KXzgeq1BuA
Dinosaurs hahahahaha
If the majority of people agrees on something as the Truth, doesn't mean that it is actually True.
Remember Jesus had 12 disciples. And humans such as Napoleon, Ghengis Khan and etc. Had millions of supporters.
Earthly desires, earthly desires my friends...
But how sad is the faith of those, who sold their infinite future for enjoyment for a moment.
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A lot of points to bring up
Iblis was of the jins (as stated in the Quran), the only reason that he was called out an Angel is that he was with the angels who had to prostrate to of Adam. Conclusion ? He was a Jinn and an Angel, with Jinn being his Nature and Angel being his status.We are not in disagreement here at all actually.
Our Lord asks Iblis in
3875 He said, "O Iblis! What prevented you that you (should) prostrate to (one) whom I created with My Hands? Are you arrogant or are you of the exalted ones."
the exalted ones al alinaThis is a title given to the malaika in verse 378 and 3869! The blind will not see not matter what you present them!
Also I do not claim to be an expert but whatever my Lord guides me to I will relate. You are interpreting 1850 as "He was of the jinn".
But the word kana in this verse is similar to kana in 3874 (Please read on your own). In 3874 we see that kana means became because Iblis was not always a kafoor/rejecter. In the same way it is very possible that Iblis was not always a jinn but became a jinn once he disobeyed the Command of His Lord. Jinn here can also mean a few different things and I will leave it to Allah to guide the readers to the sound judgement. Please study the Book and words you encounter with voracity and do not settle for dubious explanations which have no evidence in Quran like hansolos or ManofFaith's. We know that jinn entailsJiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
1)Hence this verse could be saying that Iblis became bereft of reason to let arrogance make him disobey His Creator and cost him eternity
2)It could also be indicating that Iblis as a a previous alina lost his title/power/wings and hence unfit to be in the samawati/garden. And His offspring and the jinn dwelling on earth being wingless(powerless without authority) cannot reach beyond the regions of the samawati walard.
(378 ),(5533!!) and on and on throughout Quran we read of jinn who sought to reach the heavens but found it filled with guards.3)However, it could be a combinations of all three that Iblis was a certain species of Malaika, (that being jinn but maybe not exactly same type of jinn dwelling on the earth and I will explain why), and when he disobeyed His Lord's Command he became of the insane/bereft of reason/ confounded ones (jinn) and lost his authority/wings/power.
It is interesting to note that we understand that revelation knowledge and understanding of the matter is related to prophets through malaika messengers carrying command of their Lord. There is this understanding that malaika may be connected with aiding the believers in doing righteous deeds like supporting them in their salat(commitment/bonds/prayers). Perhaps this is another aspect of their authority/wings/power.
When Iblis was cast from Paradise he asked for respite, and he was allowed to whisper to man with his whisper.
Meaning that since he had become bereft of reason instead appealing to reason like the malaika in believers and messengers, he's now only capable of appealing to desire and instincts (shaytan).It is related in Quran that Iblis offspring can do the same and he was "instructed" to assault on man with his cavalry and infantry. Iblis and his offspring can appeal to the desire of man and jinn as we understand from Surah 114 and other verses were it is indicated that jinn our on ways different some muslims and others otherwise. Therefore, it would seem it is possible Iblis and his offspring(the shaytan) are entirely different entities which are assigned to people(men and jinn) who are obstinate liar and wrongdoers(4336!!) that can whisper in the sudurin of both man and jinn.
The second point you brought up is quiet disturbing reptilians ? dinosaurs ? Such claims bring up clear contradictions with the following verse
How could a Jinn transport a massive object with an unparallel speed ? Energy perhaps..E=M.C?
take any mass, give to it a speed of c? and it becomes an energy. Likewise, take any energy, divide it by c? and you get a mass...I'm no expert here but bottom line is this goes way beyond Dinosaurs. One thing is that Jinn cannot be perceived and one needs a Logic or "Wisdom" to get to reach out for them.We are not in disagreement one bit. Read my previous post in response to Hansolo. I am merely bringing together this inherent knowledge that "reptiles" lived on the earth before us, which is misguided and corrupted interpretation of the Truth which is that Jinn lived here on earth before us not dinosaurs ( I actually do not think dinosaurs existed but that is for another topic)
I seriously discourage anyone from claiming that the account of Allah speaking to the malaika is an allegory it is the TRUTH
I especially seriously discourage the ones who have not even read the Scripture from making such outlandish claims.
It is obviously not an allegory but those of knowledge know. And a word to the wise is enough...PS Hansolo have you finished The Reading?
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For Jinn is only required to look for the stated definitions. It is not meaning hidden but the actual cover itself what is meant by the word. If a Jinn has affected you it is a cover (body) to your mind. The rest are conjecture points stated in lexicons and by so-called scholars. The Jennah is based on the same word and it is a bodily location/object. Jehennom is furthermore also based on the same root, and it basically means "attachment to outer layer".
Be well
Amenuel -
For Jinn is only required to look for the stated definitions. It is not meaning hidden but the actual cover itself what is meant by the word. If a Jinn has affected you it is a cover (body) to your mind. The rest are conjecture points stated in lexicons and by so-called scholars. The Jennah is based on the same word and it is a bodily location/object. Jehennom is furthermore also based on the same root, and it basically means "attachment to outer layer".
Be well
AmenuelLook at this readers not one reference, not one citation from Quran nor Lexicons or whatever "book" he gets this information from...
All mere conjecture...Be gone
rather.... -
Great Topic! May I add, firstly When the angels were instructed to
"fall prostrate" before Adam we know it could not have been the same
as the prostration we make to Allah, therefore hansolo's question is valid
inasmuch as we are not to prostrate to none other than to our creator.
Therefore this particular sujud is one of "obeisance" that is to respecto?bei?sance
bsns,b-/Submit
noun
noun obeisance
deferential respect.
"they paid obeisance to the prince"
synonyms respect, homage, worship, adoration, reverence, veneration, honor, submission, deference
"he made a very formal, elaborate gesture of obeisance"
a gesture expressing deferential respect, such as a bow or curtsy.
plural noun obeisances
"she made a deep obeisance"
synonyms bow, curtsy, bob, genuflection, salaam; historicalkowtow
"he made a half-bow, half-curtsy, a sort of unisex obeisance"Please compare
= Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honor/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continually and tranquilly.
MSJD - parts of a man that are the places of SJD, e.g. forehead/nose/hands/knees/feet etc. Any mode/place/practice in which the act of SJD is done. My opinion onlypeace
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So. After this incident with Iblis not obeying The All mighty. He was kicked out, out of Heaven? Yes!
So. Afterwards Adam and Eve were deceived by this same Iblis and they were kicked out too?
Wow this Iblis guy is really powerful. He was kicked out of the Heaven by Gods command. And shockingly he was able to come back to deceive the Humans so to say, so they'll join him to his trip down to Earth.And, yes a question! When we talk about The heaven, we don't mean the paradise right?
So heaven is verything that is above us right? So when we say he was kicked out, out of heaven. We are in fact not talking about an exact place, right? Hmm....Maybe heavens are not what we think, after all...And one more question!(You see I have a Phd in question asking, hehe )
So Iblis were with Angels and God before his death? Do things work even that way? And he asks God to make him live until the day of Judgment? Hmm... Sooo...A mortal being were among the Heavenly?
I thought one must die and than only on the judgement day he will be put into hell or into Heaven.Interesting confused
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as per quran, there are 11 occassions where the name ibless is mention,
nowhere in these 11 occassions its stated he was angel... instead the statement is he was with angels...
but there is one occassion in which its cleared that he was of jinns... here you go...
1850 When We said to the controllers "Submit to Adam." They all submitted except for ibless, he was of the Jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord. "Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy?" Miserable for the wicked is the substitute
in light of this , according to quran he was a jinn..
and as per my understanding it was also a test of his submission in which he failed terribly ...
peace
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So. After this incident with Iblis not obeying The All mighty. He was kicked out, out of Heaven? Yes!
So. Afterwards Adam and Eve were deceived by this same Iblis and they were kicked out too?
Wow this Iblis guy is really powerful. He was kicked out of the Heaven by Gods command. And shockingly he was able to come back to deceive the Humans so to say, so they'll join him to his trip down to Earth.And, yes a question! When we talk about The heaven, we don't mean the paradise right?
So heaven is verything that is above us right? So when we say he was kicked out, out of heaven. We are. It talking about an exact place, right? Hmm....Maybe heavens are not what we think, after all...i think the heaven which we have in our mind,is not created yet..or not rewarded untill test finish in success...
and the garden/paradise what mention with adam it was on earth , not outside the earth. specially in this life span.. human being only reside in earth untill he is alive....
the theory of heavens other than earth is unscientific and contradicting ...
and after that you can easily see the devil is always so powerful that he can bring ideas in your mind... but the ideas what he brings never fulfiil if a human not proceed with the authority of decision he have...
so he is just powerful in a sense he suggest an idea ... thats it...
at that time there was no test of adam like kids money / kingship he was on its own... so the only restriction of not to eat from that tree... in which he could not stop himself , it was their own choice of going against the test...like in this daily life we wrong ourself multiple times even after knowing its not allowed to us by God... multiple examples you will see...
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So. After this incident with Iblis not obeying The All mighty. He was kicked out, out of Heaven? Yes!
So. Afterwards Adam and Eve were deceived by this same Iblis and they were kicked out too?
Wow this Iblis guy is really powerful. He was kicked out of the Heaven by Gods command. And shockingly he was able to come back to deceive the Humans so to say, so they'll join him to his trip down to Earth.And, yes a question! When we talk about The heaven, we don't mean the paradise right?
So heaven is verything that is above us right? So when we say he was kicked out, out of heaven. We are in fact not talking about an exact place, right? Hmm....Maybe heavens are not what we think, after all...And one more question!(You see I have a Phd in question asking, hehe )
So Iblis were with Angels and God before his death? Do things work even that way? And he asks God to make him live until the day of Judgment? Hmm... Sooo...A mortal being were among the Heavenly?
I thought one must die and than only on the judgement day he will be put into hell or into Heaven.Interesting confused
I always asked myself and others the same questions. Never got a satisfying answer.
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Brother Imran as per your own words, you say that heavens and hell are not created yet, because first the judgement day must come. Than how did a jinn, who some believe are living with us on this same exact earth, how did this mortal jinn Be in heavens with God and Angels? How could he do that without the test being over? Without judgement day coming first? If he is one of the jinn, than we know that jinns are mortal just like humans, right? And they are here too for testing. Or maybe our understanding is so far from the truth, thus consequently we try to find logic in already flawed point of view.
And if there is no heaven and hell yet. And only garden of Eden.
Where were God and his angels and Iblis, when God asked them to prostate to adam? On earth with him in garden of Eden? Together with Adam? -
When we say that Adam and Eve were caused out of the Heaven. Think about it for a sec. why would they be so sad about it? We know that Earth is pretty beautiful isn't it?
I believe the fact is not that they changed their location. But because they became mortal, thus they lost their divinity. Interestingly enough the up to date translation of the Quran says that Iblis whispered them the suggestionthat the forbidden fruit will make them angels or immortal. Why would they want to seek it if they are immortal already? Or where they?
I would not tell a perso to play this game that he might become 2 meters tall, if he is already 2 meters tall. You see the logic? So I must promise him something which he has not, right? From this logic it points to two conclusions
A.) Adam was not immortal being, thus he had a reason to eat the fruit
B.) Adam WAS immortal however he did not know about it.However I would doubt that option B. is correct. Because the same Quran says that Adam knew the names of all things, even the names of things that the Angels themselves did not know about. So I see Adam as being an intelligent and knowledgeable being.
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look if you look all of this in normal way then everything is pretty clear, and if you look everything in a fantasy way then things get crumbled with eachother... obviously then you will divert your attentions...
you asked where was God when asking from angels, jinns and human...?
answer the dominion/power of God is everywhere, space and time cannot apply to God...well about the garden ... if its on earth.. where is the contradiction? ... did two recorders/controllers are not still with you , with me and with everybody?
about jinns... i told you read quran fully lot of answers you dnt even need to ask... ok for this particular situation... jinss are a creation of different nature than human, yeh they can visit galaxies... and there powers were limited just after a passage of time... if you recall the verse... no jinn can hear or try to steal the information from controllers...
about human.. before eating from tree it was of different stage... which we have no knowledge apart from which is already told to us by God... let say after eating/disobeying the command the law effect on them and their bodies become apparent to them... if u get a hint from that... dnt you see the real self inside us, but whatever test we approach its regarding the body. like clothing , food, shelter, beauty, and lot more stuff... how easy would be the life if we have not a load of body...
but again thats just my understanding , what stage they were before the disobeying i cannot tell it for sure...
what is so hard to understand in all this...
and yeh when you are in the 6th floor of building , and making noise the controller of the building will simply say you expell from this building... go down .. nd stuff like that... it does not make building out or earth...?
so same when they was expelled out from that garden it does not mean it was a paradise what we will rewarded after this life... probablly a garden or a hidden garden that is suitable for the stage before the mistake.so when the law affect on adam , he must leave that place to spend life in a way how everybody is spending now...
like fish cannot live without water, we cannot live in water, the bodyless soul cannot live in direct sunlight and the soul with body cannot live in garden designed for bodyless soule... hope you got it now...
when u put your hand in fire , the law of fire will affect you and make you burn,,
they disobeyed the law and law affect on them and they have to carry a load of body... on other words the mistake give them harm instead of benefit... so they feel sad.for me its very crystal clear to understand all this... i dnt know why you find it confusing
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Pathetic is to ask guidance from men while the explanation is due upon your Lord.
Nay, rather you are entertainers of doubt.
Impatient with the Qur'anEntertainers of doubt? Dude I'm just trying to understand different points of view, doesnt meant I accept 100% or even consider them to be right. Nothing wrong with that, however, if I follow blindly then you can start complaining or assume things about me.
I don't need to even write here, I can just be a reader. But I would like to see Man of Faiths interpretation since its very new and unique to me, and I believe I was introduced to this as one of the many stages to discover the truth.
Not long ago, I was a traditional sunni muslim scared of my doubts, asking myself why do I feel these hadith stories sound like fairy tales and why is there such injustice from what I was taught from scholars and sheikhs. Always being told Allahu Alam (Only God knows) and that I shouldn't question them. My unconventional ways have lead me to where I am now, I used to google contradictions in Islam or hate in Islam or similar things to understand where it all went wrong. Didn't make my faith any weaker, actually made it stronger. I worship Allah alone and that will never change, however, there is nothing wrong with trying to understand his message. MOF sounds crazy, I used to attack his posts too, I get attacked by friends when I say Quran alone. Is it right.
Doubters will always find an excuse to turn their backs on Allah one way or another, not by a bunch of posts posted by random people online.
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Look at this readers not one reference, not one citation from Quran nor Lexicons or whatever "book" he gets this information from...
All mere conjecture...Be gone
rather....You posted this earlier yourself containing the definitions whereas I did not repeat it.
= Jiim-Nun-Nun (root of jinn) = veiled/concealed/covered/hid/protected (e.g. cloth, armour, grave, shield), invisible, become dark/posessed, darkness of night, bereft of reason, mad/insane/unsound in mind/intellect, confusedness.
Become thick/full-grown/blossom, herbage, garden.
Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels), become weak and abject, greater part of mankind, devil/demon, people who are peerless having no match or equal, a being who is highly potent, sometimes refers to Kings because they are concealed from the common folk -
Salam to all
Q235 And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your spouse, in Paradise and eat therefrom in abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this TREE, lest you be among the wrongdoers."
Q722 partSo he made them fall, through deception. And when they tasted of the tree,
""
Point did not eat from TREE(not fruit), but TASTED
Q1424 Have you not considered how Allah presents an example,a good word like a good TREE, whose root is firmly fixed and its branches in the sky?
Q1426 And the example of a bad word is like a bad tree, uprooted from the surface of the earth, not having any stability.