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  4. TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.

TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.

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  • T Offline
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    tulipred-muslima
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    IN THE HOLY QURAN I HAD NOTICED AND LATER RESEARCHED THAT ONLY IN SURAH AL-BAQARAH IBRAHEEM IS SPELLED AS (ABRAHAAM) WHILST IN THE OTHER SURAH'S HE IS ONLY MENTIONED AS IBRAHEEM. THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOTH STAGES I FIND THIS INTEREESTING.

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    • A Offline
      A Offline
      ajzhyder
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Salam,
      Could you please provide the Aya reference numbers.

      Thanks

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      • R Offline
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        Rilum
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Salam

        Aha.

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        • N Offline
          N Offline
          Novice
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          IN THE HOLY QURAN I HAD NOTICED AND LATER RESEARCHED THAT ONLY IN SURAH AL-BAQARAH IBRAHEEM IS SPELLED AS (ABRAHAAM) WHILST IN THE OTHER SURAH'S HE IS ONLY MENTIONED AS IBRAHEEM. THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOTH STAGES I FIND THIS INTEREESTING.

          Are you talking about English translation or Arabic text? I could not find the difference in Arabic text. Which verse has Abrahaam?

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          • I Offline
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            imrankhawaja
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            peace.

            in 69 places where this name mention is either ibrahimu or ibrahima in almost every chapter

            its dose'nt matter how one interpret it in English or any other language.

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              Noon_waalqalami
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              IN THE HOLY QURAN I HAD NOTICED AND LATER RESEARCHED THAT ONLY IN SURAH AL-BAQARAH IBRAHEEM IS SPELLED AS (ABRAHAAM) WHILST IN THE OTHER SURAH'S HE IS ONLY MENTIONED AS IBRAHEEM. THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOTH STAGES I FIND THIS INTEREESTING.

              Peace, in oldest manuscripts spelled same with (ya) e.g. 22603 Ibrahim

              https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163

              https//s15.postimg.cc/7wg2beth7/ch2v259-266-2.jpg

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              • I Offline
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                ibn_a
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Salaam,


                note
                In chapter 2 the word Ibrahim is written I B R H M in 12 verses ( 15 times ) and in the rest of the quran it is written I B R H I M in 51 verses (54 times ) in 24 chapters, in the quran we have today ( 114 chapters and 6236 verses ).


                In this manuscript in chapter 2 the word Ibrahim is written

                I B R H I M

                https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/132/handschrift/163
                https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/126/handschrift/163


                In this manuscript in chapter 2 the word Ibrahim is written

                sometimes I B R H M and sometimes I B R H I M

                https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/124/handschrift/170
                https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/125/handschrift/170/flip/1
                https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/130/handschrift/170/flip/1
                https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/133/handschrift/170/flip/1



                It might be related to this

                Bible
                Genesis 175

                " Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. "

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                • N Offline
                  N Offline
                  Noon_waalqalami
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Salaam,

                  It might be related to this

                  Bible
                  Genesis 175

                  " Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. "

                  Peace, is this about numerology ? why in oldest manuscripts it's spelled the same?

                  https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=878

                  https//s15.postimg.cc/55kokatrf/ch2v259-261.jpg

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                  • I Offline
                    I Offline
                    ibn_a
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    Salaam,

                    All occurrences of the word Ibrahim in chapter 2, In this manuscript

                    13 times? I B R H M and 2 times? I B R H I M

                    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/124/handschrift/170
                    2124 not visible
                    2125 I B R H M
                    2125 I B R H M

                    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/126/handschrift/170
                    2126 I B R H M
                    2127 I B R H M

                    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/132/handschrift/170
                    2130 I B R H M
                    2132 I B R H M

                    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/135/handschrift/170
                    2133 I B R H M

                    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/136/handschrift/170
                    2135 I B R H M
                    2136 I B R H M

                    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/140/handschrift/170
                    2140 I B R H M

                    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/258/handschrift/170
                    2258 I B R H I M ( not sure, difficult to see )

                    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/259/handschrift/170
                    2258 I B R H M ( not sure, difficult to see )
                    2258 I B R H I M ( not sure, difficult to see )

                    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/259/handschrift/170/flip/1
                    2260 I B R H M ( not sure, difficult to see )


                    In chapter 2 the word Ibrahim is written IBRHM in 12 verses ( 15 times ) and in the rest of the quran it is written IBRHIM in 51 verses (54 times ) in 24 chapters, in the Quran we have today ( 114 chapters and 6236 verses ).

                    There must be a motivation, source to write the word " IBRHM " in chapter 2,
                    and " IBRHIM " the rest of the Qur'an.

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                    • N Offline
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                      Noon_waalqalami
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      ^^^ again "oldest" manuscripts it's spelled same and the manuscripts you showed are 100+ years later.

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                      • G Offline
                        G Offline
                        good_logic
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        My concern with that comparison of the bible is a small detail.
                        Abram and Abraham according to the bible was the before and after submission names.
                        In Surah 2 it seems the name is addressing Abraham after the change. So I am not sure the comparison with the bible makes sense?
                        As for the difference in spelling,you are right,there is a difference.
                        GOD bless.
                        Peace.

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                        • I Offline
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                          ibn_a
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Salaam,

                          Salaam,

                          All occurrences of the word Ibrahim in chapter 2, In this manuscript

                          13 times? I B R H M and 2 times? I B R H I M

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/124/handschrift/170
                          2124 not visible
                          2125 I B R H M
                          2125 I B R H M

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/126/handschrift/170
                          2126 I B R H M
                          2127 I B R H M

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/132/handschrift/170
                          2130 I B R H M
                          2132 I B R H M

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/135/handschrift/170
                          2133 I B R H M

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/136/handschrift/170
                          2135 I B R H M
                          2136 I B R H M

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/140/handschrift/170
                          2140 I B R H M

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/258/handschrift/170
                          2258 I B R H I M ( not sure, difficult to see )

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/259/handschrift/170
                          2258 I B R H M ( not sure, difficult to see )
                          2258 I B R H I M ( not sure, difficult to see )

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/259/handschrift/170/flip/1
                          2260 I B R H M ( not sure, difficult to see )


                          In chapter 2 the word Ibrahim is written IBRHM in 12 verses ( 15 times ) and in the rest of the quran it is written IBRHIM in 51 verses (54 times ) in 24 chapters, in the Quran we have today ( 114 chapters and 6236 verses ).

                          There must be a motivation, source to write the word " IBRHM " in chapter 2,
                          and " IBRHIM " the rest of the Qur'an.

                          In this manuscript in chapter 2 the word Ibrahim is also spelled IBRHM

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/124?handschrift=428

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/127/handschrift/428/flip/1

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/134/handschrift/428/flip/1

                          note this manuscript is not dated.

                          ^^^ again "oldest" manuscripts it's spelled same and the manuscripts you showed are 100+ years later.

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163
                          The first manuscript you posted is from 662-765

                          https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=878
                          The second manuscript you posted is from 700-1000

                          The manuscript that i posted is from 700-850

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                          • T Offline
                            T Offline
                            tulipred-muslima
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            like i said ONLY in chapter 2 which is Surah al Baqarah its ABRAHAAM while in the other surah's like al imran, al nisa, al anam, al tawba, hud,al anbiyaa and the rest he is only mentioned as ibraheem.

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                            • H Offline
                              H Offline
                              huruf
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Somebody asked you to give the ayas where the abrahaam appears. Could you do that?

                              Salaam

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                              • T Offline
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                                tulipred-muslima
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                Surah AL-BAQARAH AYAT, 124,125,126,127,130,132,133,135,136,140,258,260 all as (ABRAHM)

                                Surah AL-IMRAN AYAT, 65,68,84,95,97 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                surah AL-NISA AYAT, 54,125,163 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL-ANAM AYAT, 74,75,83,161 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL TAWBA AYAT, 70, 114 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah HUD AYAT, 75,76 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah YUSUF AYAT, 6,38, all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah IBRAHEEM AYAT, 35 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL-HIJR AYAT, 51 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL-NAHL 123, all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah MARYAM AYAT, 41,46 58 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL-ANBIYA AYAT, 51,60,62,69 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL-HAJJ AYAT, 43, 78 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                surah AL-ASHUARA AYAT, 69 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                surah AL-ANKABUT AYAT 16,31, all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL-AHZAB AYA, 7 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL-SAFFAT AYAT, 83,104,109 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL-SAD AYA, 45 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah ASHURA AYA, 13 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AZ-ZUKHRUF AYA, 26 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah ADH-DHARIYAT AYA, 24 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AN-NAJM AYA, 37 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL-HADID AYA, 26 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL-MUMTAHANA AYA, 4 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                Surah AL-ALA AYA, 19 as (IBRAHEEM)

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                                  Noon_waalqalami
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  In this manuscript in chapter 2 the word Ibrahim is also spelled IBRHM

                                  https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/124?handschrift=428

                                  https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/127/handschrift/428/flip/1

                                  https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/134/handschrift/428/flip/1

                                  note this manuscript is not dated.

                                  https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163
                                  The first manuscript you posted is from 662-765

                                  https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=878
                                  The second manuscript you posted is from 700-1000

                                  The manuscript that i posted is from 700-850

                                  Do you know how statistical probability dating works?

                                  Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
                                  https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163
                                  95.4% statistical probability dated between 662-765 CE

                                  MA VI 165 Qur?an 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
                                  http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165

                                  Sana Manuscripts
                                  http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3448/title/all-qur-27anic-fragments/cat/837

                                  i.e. probability older than CE

                                  635.5 56.20%
                                  640.5
                                  645.5 75.10%
                                  650.5
                                  655.5
                                  660.5 95.50%
                                  665.5
                                  670.5
                                  675.5 99.20%

                                  Birmingham Qur?an 95.4% probability between 568-645 CE
                                  http//www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspx

                                  Takes one earliest manuscript to show spelling was consistent/same.

                                  Hence proof that spelling in chap 2 was "changed" 100+ years later.

                                  Therefore, it is a pointless argument only shows evolution of script.

                                  peace!

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                                    tulipred-muslima
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    Do you know how statistical probability dating works?

                                    Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
                                    https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163
                                    95.4% statistical probability dated between 662-765 CE

                                    MA VI 165 Qur?an 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
                                    http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165

                                    Sana Manuscripts
                                    http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3448/title/all-qur-27anic-fragments/cat/837

                                    i.e. probability older than CE

                                    635.5 56.20%
                                    640.5
                                    645.5 75.10%
                                    650.5
                                    655.5
                                    660.5 95.50%
                                    665.5
                                    670.5
                                    675.5 99.20%

                                    Birmingham Qur?an 95.4% probability between 568-645 CE
                                    http//www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspx

                                    Takes one earliest manuscript to show spelling was consistent/same.

                                    Hence proof that spelling in chap 2 was "changed" 100+ years later.

                                    Therefore, it is a pointless argument only shows evolution of script.

                                    peace!

                                    DO YOU PEOPLE HONESTLY READ THE QURAN OR JUST DO YOUR RESEARCH ONLINE FOR EVERYTHING WHEN YOUVE GOT THE BOOK IN YOUR OWN HOME AND AT THE MOSQUE. MAYBE ITS EASIER FOR ME TO REALISE SINCE ARABIC IS MY NATIVE LANGUAGE. BUT ANYBODY WHO LOOKS AT THE QURAN WORD FOR WORD WILL NOTICE DIFFERENCES. THERE HAS BEEN NO CHANGES OF THE QURAN. ITS NOT A COINSIDENCE THAT ONLY IN CHAPTER 2 SPECIFICALLY THERE IS NO 'Y'. IF THERE WAS ANY PROOF OF CHANGES THEN I WOULD EXPECT HOW IBRAHEEM AND ABRAHM IS SPELLED TO BE IN AT LEAST 1 AYA TOGETHER IN ANY OF THE MENTIONED SURAH. THE INTERNET SEEMS TO BE THIS UMMAHS QURAN WHILE THE SCRIPTURE SITS HOME UNREAD.

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                                      ibn_a
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      Salaam,

                                      MA VI 165 Quran 95.4% probability between 649-675 CE
                                      http//idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/MaVI165

                                      No chapter 2 in this manuscript, only from chapter 17 verse 37 to chapter 36 verse 57

                                      Sana Manuscripts
                                      http//www.unesco-ci.org/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3448/title/all-qur-27anic-fragments/cat/837

                                      i.e. probability older than CE

                                      635.5 56.20%
                                      640.5
                                      645.5 75.10%
                                      650.5
                                      655.5
                                      660.5 95.50%
                                      665.5
                                      670.5
                                      675.5 99.20%

                                      Link does not work.

                                      Birmingham Quran 95.4% probability between 568-645 CE
                                      http//www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/cadbury/quran-manuscript/index.aspx

                                      Link does not work, but i know this manuscript; no chapter 2 in this manuscript.

                                      Takes one earliest manuscript to show spelling was consistent/same.

                                      Not all manuscripts are published online.

                                      Hence proof that spelling in chap 2 was "changed" 100+ years later.

                                      Therefore, it is a pointless argument only shows evolution of script.

                                      peace!

                                      It doesn't make sense to change the spelling only in chapter 2 (15 occurrences ) and not in the rest of the Quran ( 54 occurrences ).

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                                        hawk99
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        IN THE HOLY QURAN I HAD NOTICED AND LATER RESEARCHED THAT ONLY IN SURAH AL-BAQARAH IBRAHEEM IS SPELLED AS (ABRAHAAM) WHILST IN THE OTHER SURAH'S HE IS ONLY MENTIONED AS IBRAHEEM. THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOTH STAGES I FIND THIS INTEREESTING.

                                        Peace tulipred-muslima,

                                        What is your point?

                                        handshake

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                                          huruf
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          Surah AL-BAQARAH AYAT, 124,125,126,127,130,132,133,135,136,140,258,260 all as (ABRAHM)

                                          Surah AL-IMRAN AYAT, 65,68,84,95,97 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          surah AL-NISA AYAT, 54,125,163 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL-ANAM AYAT, 74,75,83,161 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL TAWBA AYAT, 70, 114 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah HUD AYAT, 75,76 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah YUSUF AYAT, 6,38, all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah IBRAHEEM AYAT, 35 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL-HIJR AYAT, 51 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL-NAHL 123, all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah MARYAM AYAT, 41,46 58 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL-ANBIYA AYAT, 51,60,62,69 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL-HAJJ AYAT, 43, 78 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          surah AL-ASHUARA AYAT, 69 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          surah AL-ANKABUT AYAT 16,31, all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL-AHZAB AYA, 7 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL-SAFFAT AYAT, 83,104,109 all as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL-SAD AYA, 45 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah ASHURA AYA, 13 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AZ-ZUKHRUF AYA, 26 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah ADH-DHARIYAT AYA, 24 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AN-NAJM AYA, 37 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL-HADID AYA, 26 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL-MUMTAHANA AYA, 4 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Surah AL-ALA AYA, 19 as (IBRAHEEM)

                                          Checked 2.124, 125

                                          in some copies it is ibraahyim
                                          in some others it says ibraahim

                                          Bur in no copy I have seen abrahm

                                          Salaam

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