TWO STAGES OF ABRAHAAM/IBRAHEEM.

[Novice]

Checked 2.124, 125

in some copies it is ibraahyim
in some others it says ibraahim

Bur in no copy I have seen abrahm

Salaam

Salaam huruf

Here is copy paste from quranexplorer.com

In 2124-140 it appears 10 times as . There is a "Y" on top of the word which shows there used to be a "Y" and for some unknown reasons to me they stopped using "Y" in the word in Sura Baqra but continued in other suras. Why they chose to do that is a mystery to me.

(&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (

Now rest of places it is with a "Y"
333

[huruf]

Thank you, I mayhave missed that. Already everything seems too small when I look, if I did not expect to see that sweet little fantom Y no onder I mssed it. I'll check. Thank you. This is a bit like amputation, they say, that you still feel the member you lost even if it is not there.

Salaam

[Noon_waalqalami]

It doesn't make sense to change the spelling only in chapter 2 (15 occurrences ) and not in the rest of the Quran ( 54 occurrences ).

They did it 100+ years later; how many examples old manuscripts do you need -- one should suffice?

Sana manuscript 2nd century!

https//s22.postimg.cc/50fx9kb4x/Sana_ch2v120-125-2.jpg

DO YOU PEOPLE HONESTLY READ THE QURAN OR JUST DO YOUR RESEARCH ONLINE FOR EVERYTHING WHEN YOUVE GOT THE BOOK IN YOUR OWN HOME AND AT THE MOSQUE. MAYBE ITS EASIER FOR ME TO REALISE SINCE ARABIC IS MY NATIVE LANGUAGE. BUT ANYBODY WHO LOOKS AT THE QURAN WORD FOR WORD WILL NOTICE DIFFERENCES. THERE HAS BEEN NO CHANGES OF THE QURAN. ITS NOT A COINSIDENCE THAT ONLY IN CHAPTER 2 SPECIFICALLY THERE IS NO 'Y'. IF THERE WAS ANY PROOF OF CHANGES THEN I WOULD EXPECT HOW IBRAHEEM AND ABRAHM IS SPELLED TO BE IN AT LEAST 1 AYA TOGETHER IN ANY OF THE MENTIONED SURAH. THE INTERNET SEEMS TO BE THIS UMMAHS QURAN WHILE THE SCRIPTURE SITS HOME UNREAD.

3119 and be moderate in walk/pace your and lower from voice yours indeed harshest the voices surely voice the donkeys (i.e. ranting loud mindlessly/braying)

peace!

[imrankhawaja]

they stopped using "Y" in the word in Sura Baqra but continued in other suras. Why they chose to do that is a mystery to me.

peace novice,

human made things always bring mysteries as a package..

look what noon trying to say

blessing in the name of God

[Novice]

They did it 100+ years later; how many examples old manuscripts do you need -- one should suffice?

Sana manuscript 2nd century!

https//s22.postimg.cc/50fx9kb4x/Sana_ch2v120-125-2.jpg

3119 and be moderate in walk/pace your and lower from voice yours indeed harshest the voices surely voice the donkeys (i.e. ranting loud mindlessly/braying)

peace!

Thanks brother Noon for confirming that "Y" was used in the oldest mushaf. No confusion there. They are still writing 'Y' on top of "Ibrahm. Mystery is why they changed spelling only in Sura Baqra.

[huruf]

I think we have to remember that in aciente times there as no printing press, so all copies ere done by hand. If someone made a mistake somwhere along the copy, and if the material was expensive and realised she or he missed the "Y", rather thna throw away the whole copy, to insert the Y somehow was a solution. May be someone was in a hurry to have the copy...

Many manuscripts, even legal, were so corrected in older times and provided they observed all the means of asserting the authenticity were valid.

Of course, by now, I think that there being no doubt as to the real content e could in printing, have reverted to the Y in its proper place.

Salaam

[Novice]

I think we have to remember that in aciente times there as no printing press, so all copies ere done by hand. If someone made a mistake somwhere along the copy, and if the material was expensive and realised she or he missed the "Y", rather thna throw away the whole copy, to insert the Y somehow was a solution. May be someone was in a hurry to have the copy...

Many manuscripts, even legal, were so corrected in older times and provided they observed all the means of asserting the authenticity were valid.

Of course, by now, I think that there being no doubt as to the real content e could in printing, have reverted to the Y in its proper place.

Salaam

I think you are correct. There had been people who memorized Quran. I have checked few current recitations and as I expected, they are reciting Ibraheema which proves brother Noon's point that oldest Quran used "Y" in sura baqra. Written copies have mistake which was corrected by placing "Y" on top of the word but reciters have been reciting correctly as "Ibraheem".

[huruf]

I think you are correct. There had been people who memorized Quran. I have checked few current recitations and as I expected, they are reciting Ibraheema which proves brother Noon's point that oldest Quran used "Y" in sura baqra. Written copies have mistake which was corrected by placing "Y" on top of the word but reciters have been reciting correctly as "Ibraheem".

In itself, I think, bearing in mind all that, that the transmission and conservation of Qur'an through the centuries given the means and the extension and the upheavals and accidnets that there always are, I consider it a formidable achievement, and as much as we may sometimes criticise decadence and deviations of muslims, this one feat is really a miracle if we are goig to believe in miracles. I don't, that is, I believe so much in miracles that I am convinced that everything, absolutely everything is a miracle, but the conservation of Qur'an is an outstanding miracle. Subhanallah.

Salaam

[tulipred-muslima]

[/size

you say that there is a Y on top of ibrahm or abrahm in Chapter 2,these marks and diacritics are not considered added letters they are just to guide people into pronunciations of words and how they sound. in chapter 2 there is no 'ya" with 2 dots on bottom which is why its spelt as ibrahm abrahm. while it's spelt with two dots in the other chapters that he is mentioned in which makes it IBRAHEEM. READ THE TWO DIFFERENT NAMES WITHOUT THE ADDED MARKS AND DIACRITICS thats how i noticed the difference to begin with.

Abraham without the is only found in SURAH AL BAQARAH and Ibraheem with a is in every other surah i stated.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

I think you are correct. There had been people who memorized Quran. I have checked few current recitations and as I expected, they are reciting Ibraheema which proves brother Noon's point that oldest Quran used "Y" in sura baqra. Written copies have mistake which was corrected by placing "Y" on top of the word but reciters have been reciting correctly as "Ibraheem".

Qiraa'a ( reading ) Hichaam an ibn Amer.

Chapter 2 " IBRAHAAMA"

Audio

http//dl.islamweb.net/audiopath/Audio3/quran/MeftahAlstunai/HishamIbnAmer/002.mp3

04151 ---------> 04752

Chapter 2 verse 124 to verse 140, you will hear 11 occurrences of " IBRAHAAMA"

In the rest of the Quran " IBRAHEEMA"

Example chapter 87

Audio

http//dl.islamweb.net/audiopath/Audio3/quran/MeftahAlstunai/HishamIbnAmer/087.mp3

132

you will hear " IBRAHEEMA"

[ajzhyder]

[/size

you say that there is a Y on top of ibrahm or abrahm in Chapter 2,these marks and diacritics are not considered added letters they are just to guide people into pronunciations of words and how they sound. in chapter 2 there is no 'ya" with 2 dots on bottom which is why its spelt as ibrahm abrahm. while it's spelt with two dots in the other chapters that he is mentioned in which makes it IBRAHEEM. READ THE TWO DIFFERENT NAMES WITHOUT THE ADDED MARKS AND DIACRITICS thats how i noticed the difference to begin with.

Abraham without the is only found in SURAH AL BAQARAH and Ibraheem with a is in every other surah i stated.

Salam
Whats your understanding of implications of these two different spellings of Ibrahim in Quran.
Sura 2, can be considered as earlier pages of Quran in which the spelling is different than later Suras. The earlier pages of Ibrahim are referred as 'Suhuf ul Oola' in 8618-19. However, not sure what the implication could be. Will appreciate if you have done some work on it, which you can share.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

They did it 100+ years later; how many examples old manuscripts do you need -- one should suffice?

Sana manuscript 2nd century!

https//s22.postimg.cc/50fx9kb4x/Sana_ch2v120-125-2.jpg

Could you post a link of this manuscript, thanks in advance.

[Noon_waalqalami]

Could you post a link of this manuscript, thanks in advance.

Sana'a manuscripts (UNESCO) downloaded they took it down (see page 111)

https//drive.google.com/file/d/1AqCXcBIkF3fq4RfDVUc3w3aeqzBZUFie/view

peace

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

Sana'a manuscripts (UNESCO) downloaded they took it down (see page 111)

https//drive.google.com/file/d/1AqCXcBIkF3fq4RfDVUc3w3aeqzBZUFie/view

peace

Thanks.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

IN THE HOLY QURAN I HAD NOTICED AND LATER RESEARCHED THAT ONLY IN SURAH AL-BAQARAH IBRAHEEM IS SPELLED AS (ABRAHAAM) WHILST IN THE OTHER SURAH'S HE IS ONLY MENTIONED AS IBRAHEEM. THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BOTH STAGES I FIND THIS INTEREESTING.

-This particular spelling of the word Ibraheem without (ya) in chapter 2 is the case in the " Hafs reading (qira'at Hafs)". (the majority of muslims 95 % follow this recitation)

• In the " Warsh reading (qira'at Warsh)", the word Ibraheem is spelled with (ya) in all occurrences. (About 3 %of muslims follow this recitation)

Some opinions about the qira'at (reading, recitation)
http//quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm
https//www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/qiraat/hafs.html

Warsh recitation with English translation
http//www.quranflash.com/books/Warsh1/?en#sthash.aRVhBOGN.SctN6kSh.dpbs

Peace, in oldest manuscripts spelled same with (ya) e.g. 22603 Ibrahim

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/260?handschrift=163

https//s15.postimg.cc/7wg2beth7/ch2v259-266-2.jpg

• This manuscript shows more resemblance with the Warsh reading (qira'at Warsh)",
  I have verified the spelling of some words in this manuscript which are different between Warsh and Hafs.

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/128/handschrift/163
2132
Manuscript last line Warsh Hafs

---

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/5/vers/53/handschrift/163
553
Manuscript line 4 Warsh Hafs

554
Manuscript line 7 Warsh Hafs

---

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/9/vers/107/handschrift/163
9107
Manuscript line 4 Warsh Hafs

---

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/18/vers/36/handschrift/163
1836
Manuscript line 10 Warsh Hafs

---

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/72/vers/16?handschrift=163
7216
Manuscript line 21 Warsh Hafs

---

• Other manuscripts shows more resemblance with the Hafs reading (qira'at Hafs)".
  Example, this manuscript

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=418009;topic=9610294.0

This is my understanding so far, i could be wrong.

---

The most important is what God says about the preservation of the Qur'an

LiteralWord by Word

159 Indeed, We We have sent down the Reminder, and indeed, We of it (are) surely Guardians.

4141 Indeed, those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes to them. And indeed, it (is) surely a Book mighty.
4142 Not comes to it the falsehood from before it and not from behind it. A Revelation from (the) All-Wise, (the) Praiseworthy.

8521 Nay! It (is) a Quran Glorious,
8522 In a Tablet, Guarded.

Muhammad Asad

159 Behold, it is We Ourselves who have bestowed from on high, step by step, this reminder? and, behold, it is We who shall truly guard it .

4141 Verily, they who are bent on denying the truth of this reminder as soon as it comes to them - for, behold, it is a sublime divine writ
4142 no falsehood can ever attain to it openly, and neither in a stealthy manner, bestowed from on high by One who is truly wise, ever to be praised.

8521 Nay, but this is a discourse sublime,
8522 upon an imperishable tablet .

M. M. Pickthall

159 Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.

4141 Lo! those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it cometh unto them (are guilty), for lo! it is an unassailable Scripture.
4142 Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or from behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise

8521 Nay, but it is a glorious Qur'an.
8522 On a guarded tablet.

Yusuf Ali

159 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

4141 Those who reject the Message when it comes to them (are not hidden from Us). And indeed it is a Book of exalted power.
4142 No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.

8521 Day, this is a Glorious Qur'an,
8522 (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!

[Noon_waalqalami]

Salaam,

-This particular spelling of the word Ibraheem without (ya) in chapter 2 is the case in the " Hafs reading (qira'at Hafs)". (the majority of muslims 95 % follow this recitation)

• In the " Warsh reading (qira'at Warsh)", the word Ibraheem is spelled with (ya) in all occurrences. (About 3 %of muslims follow this recitation)

Some opinions about the qira'at (reading, recitation)
http//quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm
https//www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/qiraat/hafs.html

Warsh recitation with English translation
http//www.quranflash.com/books/Warsh1/?en#sthash.aRVhBOGN.SctN6kSh.dpbs

• This manuscript shows more resemblance with the Warsh reading (qira'at Warsh)",
  I have verified the spelling of some words in this manuscript which are different between Warsh and Hafs.

Peace -- not sure when Warsh/Hafs (7) revelations absurdness started and trust the oldest.

99.99999% of majority is clueless e.g. meaning of kalala or son/s get 2x the daughter, etc.

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

Peace -- not sure when Warsh/Hafs (7) revelations absurdness started and trust the oldest.

99.99999% of majority is clueless e.g. meaning of kalala or son/s get 2x the daughter, etc.

Why not start a topic to explain ?

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

This is a part of your post from
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610157.msg424062#msg424062

... likewise Abraham consistently spelled in every chapter then ~100-150 years later there was a revision, numerous alif's added, verses rearranged, etc.

Peace Noon,

In this manuscript( arabe331) and before what you call " ...~100-150 years later... "
the name Abraham is spelled without the letter "ya " in chapter 2 in 12 occurrences and in one occurrence Abraham with "ya "

In other chapters the name Abraham is spelled with the letter "ya " in 3 occurrences and without the letter "ya " in 2 occurrences

The rest of the manuscript ( Marcel 3, A 6959 + A 6990, E16264 R) is not available online(afaik) to verify the other occurrences of the name Abraham, and (Ms. Leiden Or. 14.545b + Or. 14.545c) don't contain the name Abraham.

More information about this manuscript

Date

1st century of hijra.

Noseda included this manuscript in his table of hijz manuscripts from 1st century hijra. Giving information about a hijz manuscript kept at the Universiteitsbibliothek Leida (i.e., University Library, Lieden), he does not mark any dash to indicate the contents of the manuscript. One may surmise that perhaps Noseda had only limited information concerning this manuscript at the time of writing and made note of the existence of the manuscript. However, it was Nabia Abbott in 1939, who first classified two folios from this codex at the Oriental Institute, Chicago, to be from 1st/2nd century AH.

Originally believed to date from the latter part of the eight century, the folio of MS Leiden Or. 14.545b has now been subject to radiocarbon analysis under the auspices of the Corpus Coranicum project and has been dated to 652-763 CE with 95.4% probability, with that range being broken down into a 89.3% probability that it dates to between 652 and 694 CE and a 6.1% probability that it dates to between 747 and 763 CE.

Size & Folios

41.3 cm x 34.8 cm. There are 19 lines per page. Manuscript on parchment.

This manuscript has 87 folios = 56 (Arabe 331, Biblioth?que Nationale, Paris) + 26 (Marcel 3, National Library of Russia, St. Petersburg) + 2 (Ms. Leiden Or. 14.545b + Or. 14.545c, University Library, Leiden) + 2 (A 6959 + A 6990, Oriental Institute, Chicago) + 1 (E16264 R, University of Pennsylvania Museum). The extant folios contain ~28.5% of the text of the Qur'an.
....
https//www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/arabe331.html

---

Manuscript( arabe331)

Chapter 2

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/125/handschrift/32

https//i.imgur.com/IWRORSB.png

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/133/handschrift/32
... ...
https//i.imgur.com/namqoBK.png

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/180/handschrift/32/flip/1

https//i.imgur.com/pBVUJFf.png

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/258/handschrift/32

https//i.imgur.com/RAwSMgr.png

Other chapters

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/51/handschrift/32

https//i.imgur.com/cK4MB90.png

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/16/vers/120/handschrift/32

https//i.imgur.com/SciWTsY.png

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/51/vers/24/handschrift/32

https//i.imgur.com/jI5DwJb.png

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/53/vers/37/handschrift/32

https//i.imgur.com/AoKU8ej.png

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/57/vers/26/handschrift/32

https//i.imgur.com/lgtY5V0.png

Allah knows best.

..............................................................................

[Noon_waalqalami]

Corpus Coranicum project and has been dated to 652-763 CE with 95.4% probability

peace, again use "the oldest" manuscripts e.g. this one spread across two libraries.

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham) Islamic Arabic 1572
9 sheets - 33.3 x 24.5 cm.mm - fol. 1 and 7 (= 1572a) 568-645, 2 (95.4%) ; fol. 2-6, 8 and 9 (= 1572b) before 750 (?) Parchment - Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham) (Birmingham, UK) - 004 129-004 152; 004 153-005 027; 006 074-006 122; 006 122-006 143; 018 017-018 031; 019 091-020 030 - 22-30 lines

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/75?handschrift=158

Paris, National Library of France Arabic 328 (c)
16 sheets - 333x245mm - Radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham Fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a), originally from the same code 568-645 CE (95.4%) - parchment - Biblioth?que nationale de France (Paris, FR) - 010 035 009-010 048 007; 010 049 000-011 110 000; 020 099 000-020 113 000; 020 117 000-020 128 000; 020 131 000-022 058 000; 022 062 000-023 027 000 - 24-25 lines

https//i.postimg.cc/SNvMWQXx/ch11v70-84.jpg

[ibn_a]

Salaam,

peace, again use "the oldest" manuscripts e.g. this one spread across two libraries.

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham) Islamic Arabic 1572
9 sheets - 33.3 x 24.5 cm.mm - fol. 1 and 7 (= 1572a) 568-645, 2 (95.4%) ; fol. 2-6, 8 and 9 (= 1572b) before 750 (?) Parchment - Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham) (Birmingham, UK) - 004 129-004 152; 004 153-005 027; 006 074-006 122; 006 122-006 143; 018 017-018 031; 019 091-020 030 - 22-30 lines

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/11/vers/75?handschrift=158

Paris, National Library of France Arabic 328 (c)
16 sheets - 333x245mm - Radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham Fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a), originally from the same code 568-645 CE (95.4%) - parchment - Biblioth?que nationale de France (Paris, FR) - 010 035 009-010 048 007; 010 049 000-011 110 000; 020 099 000-020 113 000; 020 117 000-020 128 000; 020 131 000-022 058 000; 022 062 000-023 027 000 - 24-25 lines

Peace Noon,

Topic is about the spelling of the name "Abraham" in chapter 2.
The manuscript you posted does not contain chapter 2.