New article: salat timings as per The Quran

jkhan

The regular/timed salat from The Quran how many and when?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

peace jkhan,
You claim the one option I gave for "the day of gathering" / "a day of gathering" referring to "al hajj" cannot be since that is over a few days. Well your objection is refuted by 93 which uses ""yawma al-haji al-akbari".
I cannot be certain what "yawmi al-juamati" refers to in 629 (and I have never seen anyone make a solid case for one understanding over others, hence why I provided several options) but my point was no matter which you choose it works perfectly well with the article posted in this thread.
Why are you asking me if "amusement/distraction/sport" is allowed in "al hajj" or not, haven't you got a Quran? Show me the verse which says this is not allowed in "al hajj" then we can talk more. I hate to state the obvious but I should point out 629 referring to "al hajj" was simply one option I provided.

Re 2238
If a person does not understand something, I recommend re-reading, even if it means re-reading several times. Let me simplify further 2239 refers to the previous verse which mentions upholding the most excellent/balanced salat, and that is obviously the one connected to God / God's system, i.e. the timed-salat. So 2239 is referring to whenever one upholds the timed-salat, it does not matter which one. It's like 56 when it says wash before you observe the timed-salat, it doesn't say which specific salat, it is referring to any timed-salat.

peace GL,
Thanks for clarifying. You could have avoided having to clarify by simply answering what I asked you previously, so let me ask you again Quran says do salat X ila/to Y. Do you do one salat from X (which you take as noon) to Y (which you take as "ghasaq al layl&quot, which is currently approx. 7hrs in the UK where you reside? Yes/No.

Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, now you say "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams". Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, provide the proof showing it can only mean what you claim it means.

You now say "bring from Qoran where "Duluk Al Shams" means sunset." when I could easily say YOU bring me proof from Quran where it means decline from its zenith? You as well as I know it only occurs once. My argument is painfully simple I have interpreted the verses in such a way that provides the utmost logic, coherence and practicality and have challenged anyone to find a flaw/error. Since we have no idea what your timing system is we cannot compare and see what results.

You then say "If 1778 is saying at the decline, the most logical way is the start of the decline. Hence my timing makes more sense than yours.". You seem to be fixated on "duluk" meaning decline, so tell us, do Classical Arabic dictionaries only mention "decline" as its meaning? Yes/No.

From PRL http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.

In any case, it doesn't really matter what meaning one picks for "duluk" from the options, the point of the article is really simple, what matters is can the timings be made to work which respects the Arabic, logic, practicality and when cross-referenced with other verses (i.e. coherence). Since you seem extremely reluctant to detail what your timings system is we cannot compare/test it and see what happens.

Peace...
I do apologize for asking as a question... Thought you would consider in more apt way since your and our aim is to find out the errors.. But you discarded saying "Don't you have a quran".. Fine... Let's hope that's your nature.. .. But naturally amusement do take place in a fair / market taking into consideration the time the Quran was revealed... I have never read in Quran amusement was part of haj and for what purpose the amusement / sport needed where basically debate, dead people reminded and remembrance of God is taking place... It's not meant for fun... Naturally looking at the content of Haj amusement cannot be part of Haj (God allowed or not is not the key)... But does it befit? But here amusement is stated and it does befit within a weakly etc fair or market.. Why can't we perceive what suits to occasion... That's my point..

The verse 629-12 not sound like Haj at all... Look at the cream and the essence in the verse...

people at business and asked to leave them (never stated to leave any Haj rituals and rush for Salat)
And again once the salat is over. it never sounds like go and do what's relevant to haj, but go do business again. that's so unlikely the instructions if Haj is also meant by this verse...
And the people who came to Haj and called for Salat can most probably be submitters / believers in order to come and perform Salat.. Then why they should leave Salat and rush for amusement almost all of them... Is amusement is so important during haj being believers... Leaving the messenger standing....
God restricted certain things during Haj which is more or less without knowledge people may do, and God doesn't need to restrict mostly what people hardly practice during haj.. That's amusement..
The greater day of Haj is one of the days of haj.. Greater day cannot be the only day of haj.. Haj is more than one day act..
But 629-11 specify ONLY ONE DAY..

2238 ..still you are not ready to ponder what others say and remain eccentric on your view.. Fine.. But look for possibilities..
Here salawat and together with Salat wusta mentioned.. That's definitely unnecessary to mention wusta... If wusta is not a salat that needs emphasisng...
For example God used. 2309 same word salawat and they are believers who guard salawat and successful... Notably, there is no wusta... So if can be stated without wusta one place and Guard salawat why mention wusta in 2238?

Coz it has a difference.. "Guard the prayers and the middle salat"... That's the most vulnerable Salat which can be missed coz of business and hustle and bustle of busy day time ..needs extra emphasisng to guard it..

But in 239 it is not required.. Coz God is talking about those who guarded believers who guarded Fajr, Wusta, Isha...

Subsequently, I deduce there is no reason to put an additional word in 2238 after saying Guard Salawat and salat wusta.. Guard salwar is more than enough as of 239 ...
Difference is..
239 is the one who is successful believers..
2238 is instructions to become successful...

jkhan

In 2458 you say only two salat is mentiones so tw is appropriate...
Do you think it is really necessary to say middle salat in that verse..
Perfectly alright Salat Fajr and Isha coz they are the perfect timong of privacy... Coz timing for Salat isha and Fajr is so limited.. Do you agree? So mentioning after isha and before Fajr makes much sense...
But how would one say after or before middle prayer(wusta) since it has much longer period...

Questions for you.. In case there is a Salat at midday from the time of sun decline from Meridian till darkness, then how would the verse 2458 should be placed?
Can the verse say after Wusta Salat or can it say before wusta Salat?

If God said after wusta Salat... Then wusta Salat should be exactly when the sun declines from its peak.. That's not the time by verse 1778...that's manifestly long period... Let them sleep and pray OR pray and sleep.. Enough time.. But when they remove cloth at noon it is a privacy... There is no way to include the salat as landmark as of Fajr and isha.. Try to grasp...

Further what GL and tmtt is indicating of Guribath is perfect.. That I also indicated to its maximum in one of the similar topic, but you never considered... But you prefer to take 1778 as sunset only and leaving more convenient and proper and comparable meaning aside..

That's only your option taking as sun set, and it has nothing to convince other than your mere option.. Can you convince it is sunset... No way...

Wakas

peace GL,
Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, then you said "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams", then went on to cite verses 1886, 20130, 1817 which do not contain that phrase. I will have to assume therefore you mean when "ghurub" is used referring to "shams" it means sunset.
I already showed the following

You have refuted yourself. In 1886 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".

You then cited 1817 so let's take a closer look

"And you may have seen the sun when it rose inclining away from their cave to the right AND when it GhRBat passing away (from) them to the left..."

underlined words are perfect verbs
the verse states it would have possible to see what occurred to the sun
GhRBat is in the perfect tense BUT "passing away" (taqridu) is in the imperfect (i.e. an action incomplete or in the process of being done). Similarly "inclining away" is imperfect.

According to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?

Tell us why it cannot mean these
From http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Ghayn-Ra-Ba = went/passed away, depart/retire/remove/disappear, become remote/distant/absent/hidden/black, withdraw, western, foreign/strange, exceed, abundance, sharpness, (maghrib = sunset), black, raven-black, setting place of the sun, the west.

When I said

Next, you claim for 1778 when Quran says do X li A ila/to B, it means do X at/from A. Evidence from Quran please.

I thought I was being clear. If you have no other examples from Quran which proves how you interpret it is possible then just say so. It is not an easy thing to research so it is understandable if you are not aware of corroborating examples.

The reason I asked this

Of course your timing for this salat has no time-range and you will have to clarify if you only do one salat during this time-range of zenith to dark night.

Because you previously said this. Readers will also note the baseless claim made by GL regarding preposition "Li".
Since I/we have no idea what his timings system is we cannot compare/test it.

You claim the salat time I am referring to in the evening would be "very long" and "not true or possible" when according to this website the timeframe would be approx 34-75mins for London UK. It will depend of course on which twilight one is referring to but going by 2187 it seems whiteness in the sky is a good indicator of twilight so that would be till end of civil twilight in this case giving 34mins. Doesn't seem "very long" to me.

peace TMTT,
I'm not sure what point you are making. Please clarify.

peace jkhan,
I never saw any highlighting of a flaw/error in my article in your replies. Quran says no sex/wrongdoing/quarreling for those undertaking al hajj . If you want to claim there is also no amusement/sport/distraction then go ahead. Bear in mind not everyone in the locality will be undertaking al hajj.
Also I will give you a good example, when I have visited some bazaars, some sellers, e.g. of ice cream, will put on a show as an amusement/advertisement in order to attract watching people, so they are hopefully enticed to also buy ice cream. Under your made-up claims this may not be allowed. You need to consider the practicality of what you're suggesting.

And in case you are still confused, here are the type of errors/flaws/problems I am looking for
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610966.msg428541#msg428541

jemby97

Salam Everyone,

While it is good that this issue, one that has been discussed many many times before, without any agreement or conclusion, is being brought up again so that it can be finalized and concluded and agreed by all.

But, I feel that before discussing its timing, don't you think that it is better to agree to get the definition, meaning and objectives of Solat first.

Once this is agreed then the discussion of its timing will have meaning.

We can start on with Bro Wakas article on Salat.

Just my two cent contribution Guys.

Salam.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
Let us first cklear "Maghrib, Gharabat, Ghurub Al Shams... and its derivatives.

Not one of them relates to "DULUK" do you agree ?. and they describe when the sun sets,disappear...
What is sunset according to you? Does one see sunset when the sun has just set/disappeared, the clear glow in the sky?
Then you have no grounds with this, quote

According to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?

So here is my request to you
Provide evidence from Qoran that Duluk Al Shams is sunset?
All you have done is choose a meaning from lexicon that fits your view.
Remember you are clearly claiming this ,not me.
If you do not,, your work cannot be without error/s 100%.

Second You claim sunset to Ghasaki Al Leyl is a time frame,How do you deduce it is a time frame and not the lenght of the single salat?
You say Li/At or from To Ghasaki Al Leyl is not the lenght of the salat, yet if the instruction is from...to it can only mean continuous?

Otherwise the instruction would be Bayna Duluk ...Ila Ghasaki Al Leyl. i.e between Duluk and Ghasaki...This is a time frame not what you claim.
I am going to summarize here for you and the reader to show your errors in translating 1778

1- No evidence from Qoran that Duluk Al Shams is sunset, even though Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set...

2- No evidence that "at-to" or "from -to" means time frame and not one continuous salat of the whole lenght of time.

I explained my view , However ,regardless of any other view,I am highlighting the errors in your translation which is what you are asking the readers to do.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

peace GL,
I am using the dictionary definition of "sunset" which refers to when the sun disc is fully below the horizon.

Thanks for making things clearer for readers

GL first said "maghrib al shams" means "sunset".
I provided evidence that "maghrib" actually means setting time/place.
GL then said "ghurub al shams" describes "sunset" and cited no verse where this phrase occurs (so we can only assume he means when "ghurub" refers to "shams" it means "sunset&quot, so he cited 1886, 20130.
I refuted his claim regarding 1886.
GL had no direct response and then cited 1817.
I analysed 1817 and asked him a simple question how his view can work with this verse.
GL completely avoids answering and then subtly changes his view to "Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..."
Note how he doesn't say "sunset"! i.e. his claim now is this word describes the process of setting not only "sunset"

Readers will also note GL completely avoids answering my question on how he has seemingly changed his timings and his baseless claim about preposition "li". I wonder why that is.

I do not understand your point about timeframe and length of salat. I clearly and unequivocally state what the timeframe/length is for each salat. In fact, I have no idea how anyone can be confused after reading what I wrote in the article, quote "To clarify this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight)."
Or to put it in your language, yes it's continuous. Although in the real world it would be flexible, e.g. if someone wants to do a little more/less etc it's not a problem as per Quran, which I discuss in the articles. Readers must pay attention to the ONLY plural address verse that uses salat and a timing component and that is 2458, which says morning/dawn and evening/dusk, i.e. it gives no time-range/length. The time-ranges in Quran are exemplars. I think I will make this point clearer in my article.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
You have no evidence from Qoran that duluk Al Shams is sunset, or after sunset,Hence it is on you to bring the evidence from Qoran.
Or do you want us to take your view for it as accurate?

What is sunset in Arabic, Let us ask everyone (Who knows Arabic) this question to see who is right? You are not accepting Qoran.
The Salat at sunset ( i.e just after sunset) like you claim is called Maghrib salat by all Muslims. Nowhere do I see or hear Duluk salat.
You are now dodging the question of evidence .

You say, quote
Readers will also note GL completely avoids answering my question on how he has seemingly changed his timings and his baseless claim about preposition "li". I wonder why that is.

I have given you the following explanation for time frame, in fact I will give you my translation of 1778
"Aquimi the salat at the point(start) of decline of the sun(Atnoon), the decline that goes towards ghasaki al leyland...."
This salat is the noon salat and itstime frame is the noon time. i.e lunchtime,siesta time...-Known worlwide .

Your explanation of time frame cannot mean time frame it can only mean the whole time from sunset to ghasaki al leyl according to the Arabic you have chosen as at-to or from to.. If you say it is up to the individual how long they take, bring evidence from Qoran and identify clearly what is the salat in details to see why it should take that long. Or are you saying GOD is not clear?

Now concentrate on bringing evidence from Qoran for
1- duluk Al Shams is sunset.
2- Time frame clarification .
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

peace GL,
It's funny how you ask me for Quranic evidence for "duluk al-shams" meaning "sunset" then refer to non-Quranic evidence for "ghurub" / "maghrib" meaning "sunset". Seems to me you have given up on your alleged Quranic evidence.

You say it means zenith but since it occurs only once you (like me) cannot prove it means what we take it to mean directly, so stop pretending your view is somehow superior to mine. But we can provide evidence indirectly

482 Do they not reflect on the Qur'an? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many a discrepancy/contradiction.

If we select a meaning that results in no errors/flaws/contradictions etc then that chosen meaning is a contender. No-one in this thread so far has found any flaw/error/contradiction in what I've written.

There is no need for me to clarify timeframe. I have already answered this question. It is crystal clear in my article. It seems only you are confused about timeframe.

And by the way you never answered what I asked, but it's ok, I understand why you'd be reluctant to do so.

In case if anyone actually reads my article on SaBiH I actually discuss why "duluk al shams" is used, hence why in this article I state "setting of the sun / sunset" as it doesn't affect my position which is chosen.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
I am just doing what you asked people to do in this thread. I am showing you that there are issues in the work you claim has no errors.
Here are the clear errors.
1- No evidence from Qoran that duluk Al Shams is sunset.
The dictionary has many meanings for duluk,. All you have to do is show that duluk Al Shams in Qoran has that meaning, find another verse or expression from Qoran to confirm for us you are right.
Otherwise, it is your view Hence you have no evidence.

2- Your time frame and explanation of this salat does not make sense. Clarify or explain this salat in details that takes more than two hours to complete. What does Qoran mean when it instructs the salat from sunset to ghasaki Al Leyl?
Remember, the Arabic has not said between sunset and ghasaki Al Leyl as this is what one expects for time frame.

If you are claiming your work is still 100%, then you are ignoring some very important and logical problems in your work. You have not been convincing in your answers and you have not provided any verses from Qoran to confirm your understanding.

If you say it is your view and accept that there may be room for improvement that is a better way than the position you are taking. about your work has no errors?
Can you see the issue brother?
Otherwise it is up to you to claim whatever you want.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Wakas .
One more point
You seem to ignore verses that talk about the sun setting, before sunset. i.e clearly identifying the process of the sun going under the horizon.
All of them here
hapter 50 Qaf سورة ق - Qaf Verse 39
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ

Chapter 6 The cattle سورة الأنعام - Al-Anaam Verse 78
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ

Chapter 18 The cave سورة الكهف - Al-Kahf Verse 86
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِنْدَهَا قَوْمًا ۗ قُلْنَا يَا ذَا الْقَرْنَيْنِ إِمَّا أَنْ تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّا أَنْ تَتَّخِذَ فِيهِمْ حُسْنًا

Chapter 20 Taha سورة طه - Taha Verse 130
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ غُرُوبِهَا ۖ وَمِنْ آنَاءِ اللَّيْلِ فَسَبِّحْ وَأَطْرَافَ النَّهَارِ لَعَلَّكَ تَرْضَىٰ

Chapter 18 The cave سورة الكهف - Al-Kahf Verse 17
وَتَرَى الشَّمْسَ إِذَا طَلَعَتْ تَزَاوَرُ عَنْ كَهْفِهِمْ ذَاتَ الْيَمِينِ وَإِذَا غَرَبَتْ تَقْرِضُهُمْ ذَاتَ الشِّمَالِ وَهُمْ فِي فَجْوَةٍ مِنْهُ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مِنْ آيَاتِ اللَّهِ ۗ مَنْ يَهْدِ اللَّهُ فَهُوَ الْمُهْتَدِ ۖ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلْ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهُ وَلِيًّا مُرْشِدًا

None of them mentioned duluk?

Even after it disappears Qoran used a different word than duluk.
Chapter 6 The cattle سورة الأنعام - Al-Anaam Verse 78
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ

You are not accepting but you cannot confirm your take. Is mine not a better position than yours regarding sunset.?
Just to clarify.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

TellMeTheTruth

Salam, brother Wakas!
What is your take on the expression قبل غروبھا (BEFORE its setting)? 5039

Hope my question is clear now.

Thanks & peace!

Cerberus

peace all,

The regular/timed salat from The Quran how many and when?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

The Challenge
If you find an error/flaw in the above you will be eligible for $100 USD per error/flaw or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case. Please post any claimed flaws in this thread, thanks. Valid errors/flaws will be determined by the author.

Sure. I'll have to preface this with the fact that this question does not interest me as I find it to be useless.

But let see what you claimed, and whether it makes sense for you to claim what you claim, and with such confidence.

You took the following verse

2458 O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances - before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.,

The above verse, that defines specific instances where certain people should request permission, and in doing so, the verse mentioned two salat. And so you concluded the following

Since the verse, that by the way talks about permission/privacy (completely unrelated) happened to mention two salat, lo and behold, there must be exactly and only two salat !

I hope I made your illogical argument clear enough.

jkhan

Peace...
I am surprised the way you are dealing this topic.. You have sealed your assumptions... And not ready to give any thoughts... With that attitude it's hard to unearth the truth.. I don't see anything wrong in the responses of GL... But you skip and pointing him as weak and keeping your long felt dislike on him I guess.. That's obvious even you say no... You never answered my reply connected with 2309...

Anyhow.. I don't know whether you believe in Quran order of revelation... If you don't believe in, then bring a single error according to Quran order of revelation and how the verses revealed.. I assure you, you will never be able to indicate a single.. For example fasting... If God said fast in Quran that verse cannot be before the verse when to fast..(verse may be before if in same chapter but not in another chapter) coz all chapter has order of revelation...

Accordingly... God has revealed the Mid Salat first and then ordered Salat at two ENDs... Take all Salat verses... None of the Salat verses (for prayer and not Salat = moral/ethic verses) appears before the timing of salat is revealed... Very meticulously go through the order before rushing to answer.. I know you will be blinded in this manifest evidence.. Let's hope at least the viewers will ponder..

God ordered to pray in 1778 first of three Salat... And explained in 17110 how to perform it... This chapter order of revelation is 50th
Then the next two salat is revealed in the chapter 11th which order of revelation is 52nd....

11114 "And perform the Salat at the two ends of the day but near parts of the night ..... ..."

Whatever pertaining to Salat (prayer) in entire Quran is reveled after these two chapters...

So dear brothers and sisters how come there is no salat at mid day and that last long period till sun set and darkness creep in..

Fajr and isha is mere a time period which exist in the society... And the salat God ordered fall within these period.. So God called it using these two periods and named it isha and Fajr Salat... But it is not their real names... So God called them without AL but mere Salat Al... ...
But for Mid Salat God used AL Salat Al Wusta ...it has big emphasis.. It is the first of the Salat ordered for those who never practiced Salat in life.. While others who were given scriptures practicing.. Second it is the most vulnerable Salat that can be skipped during day time.. Like Sulaiman missed (he can remember God at any time but Salat is time fixed that's why he was concerned)..
Third ..importantly, the Salat AL wusta has lengthy period than other two Salat.. So no typical Arabic word like isha OR Fajr are for this period... So God uses Wusta with AL to emphasize...

Go research all Salat(prayer) verses and let me know I am wrong in connection with ORDER OF REVELATION.... I bet you will never be able to... If you then the order of revelation has to have something wrong.. That I don't expect...
God preserved how quran was revealed and with which chapters first and last and the complete readable order as well with reason...

Hope it benefits for those who wish to reflect..

Find the truth and not the adamence of view...

If as Waqas claim 1778 is salat isha thrn no need to repeat it as timing in 11114...
In that case 11114 is more Th add n enough if ONLY two salat..

Your claim is so fragile but you alone think so... While you have some very robust articles that are comprehensive

Wakas

peace GL,
Please look up the definitions of "clear" and "error". Essentially your objection (not clear error) is that I haven't proven "duluk al shams" is "sunset" and you haven't proven it isn't.
I have no idea what you're referring to with the time frame issue so cannot comment further.

Of course there is room for improvement in any work however I am asking for actual verifiable errors/flaws.

peace TMTT,
Please see the links in the article in which further detail is provided, e.g. this one.

peace jkhan,
Again I didn't see you pointing out an error/flaw, and it now seems your argument is based on unverifiable chronological order of revelation. Also I have a section with deals with "wusta" here.

peace Cerebrus,
I note how you had to re-word my argument, according to your interpretation. In any case I would agree with you IF that was my only argument.

Cerberus

peace Cerebrus,
I note how you had to re-word my argument, according to your interpretation. In any case I would agree with you IF that was my only argument.

I reworded your argument so that YOU can see the flaw. But I guess I have to take baby steps with you so that you don't run away.

You asked for a flaw and will show you one. I'm not debating your entire argument, nor do I care about what that whole thing is about.

From your link

• POINT 1 there are only two salat mentioned in The Quran in a reference format (see 2458, salat al fajr, and, salat al isha). Note that "al salat al wusta" in 2238 is not in the same form .

• POINT 2 the ONLY verse in the plural address to the mumineen which mentions a timed-salat is 2458 which only has two timings.

• POINT 3 it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical.

Your base argument, POINT 1, in itself refers to verse 2458 that happens to mention two salats while it is talking about timings where people should request permission.
POINT 2, you claim 2458 is the only verse "in the plural address to the mumineen that mentions a time-based salat. Sure I'll take your word for it.
POINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".

Explain how a verse that mentions specific timings for people to request permission (for privacy reasons apparently) is now providing a clear-time range for each salat. And how is it the most logical and coherent one ?

Your entire argument is based on the fact that there has been a mention of two salats, implying there is a significance to that in relation to the total number of salats. It doesn't, not logically atleast. Three timings were mentioned in that verse, two of them happened to be salat related, how does that give you a hint about the total number of salats ? Well you assumed it does and you carried on in the rest of your article in finding bits and pieces here and there trying to consolidate your first point.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.

So you ignore evidence from Qoran that the setting of the sun/sunset is "Al Ghurub"," Ghurub Al Shams2, or Ghurubiha(when the subject is the sun), like given to you here
Chapter 50 Qaf سورة ق - Qaf Verse 39
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ

Is this "Al Ghurub" here not the setting of the sun/sunset? Like "Tuluu Al Shams " here is the rising of the sun/sunrise?

And here
Chapter 20 Taha سورة طه - Taha Verse 130
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ غُرُوبِهَا ۖ وَمِنْ آنَاءِ اللَّيْلِ فَسَبِّحْ وَأَطْرَافَ النَّهَارِ لَعَلَّكَ تَرْضَىٰ

Remember in claiming to refute me about other verses(that were talking about the subject of "the sun setting", you conveniently left out 20130, . was this deliberate since you said, quote

GL first said "maghrib al shams" means "sunset".
I provided evidence that "maghrib" actually means setting time/place.
GL then said "ghurub al shams" describes "sunset" and cited no verse where this phrase occurs (so we can only assume he means when "ghurub" refers to "shams" it means "sunset&quot, so he cited 1886, 20130.
I refuted his claim regarding 1886.
GL had no direct response and then cited 1817.
I analysed 1817 and asked him a simple question how his view can work with this verse.
GL completely avoids answering and then subtly changes his view to "Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..."
Note how he doesn't say "sunset"! i.e. his claim now is this word describes the process of setting not only "sunset"

You said nothing about 20130?
I say this clearly refutes your take that Duluk Al Shams is the setting of the sun/sunset.
Or are you going to be inconsistent about your approach to Qoran analysis? i.e wanting evidence from Qoran from others while ignoring evidence against you from Qoran?

As for "Time frame" ,it means between certain times not to do salat from -to like you assume this is the total lenght of the salat. What is the details of this salat that takes all this time?.
If it was the case,the Arabic for time frame in the verse would have been "Bayna sunset - ila/wa darkness.
Is this clear to you brother?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

peace Cerebrus,

Explain how a verse that mentions specific timings for people to request permission (for privacy reasons apparently) is now providing a clear-time range for each salat.

Where did I say 2458 provides a clear time-range for each salat? Perhaps it is I who has to baby-step you through my argument so you understand it. It's ok I see where you may have got confused Pay careful attention to my use of "understanding" which refers to my overall position on this issue not a certain verse. You alluded to it here

POINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".

And how is it the most logical and coherent one ?

Simple. Quran only mentions two, two time-ranges can be understood with start/end points for each, no verse contradicts this position, it's practical for people/community to implement, it uses easily discernible points in the day etc.

peace GL,
"ghurub" can refer to "setting/withdrawing/departing / becoming remote". You never showed in any verse it means "sunset" (i.e. sun below horizon). I have already covered 20130 in my SaBiH article which is linked in the article. Have you read it?

Re timeframe
I think I see the point you are trying to make now, and that is
According to you if Quran meant do salat from A to B continuous it would have said "do salat bayna/between A ila/wa B".
Whereas I have understood A ila/to B to mean continuous, i.e. do salat from A to B. (and this is not your view)

Simplified
GL's view 1778 does not mean continuous timeframe A ila/to B.
My view 1778 means a continuous timeframe A ila/to B.

Have I understood you correctly?
If so, you will have to provide evidence for your view from Quran. I provided a perfect example from 56 wash hands to/ila elbows, unless you only wash parts from hand to elbow.

Cerberus

peace Cerebrus,
Where did I say 2458 provides a clear time-range for each salat? Perhaps it is I who has to baby-step you through my argument so you understand it. It's ok I see where you may have got confused Pay careful attention to my use of "understanding" which refers to my overall position on this issue not a certain verse. You alluded to it here

POINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".

Simple. Quran only mentions two, two time-ranges can be understood with start/end points for each, no verse contradicts this position, it's practical for people/community to implement, it uses easily discernible points in the day etc.

Yes I have alluded to your "understanding" and I intentionally put the quotation marks
.
To simplify, always good to simplify to get rid of any obfuscations, I'm re-wording your 3 points in the following

Point 1 Verse 2458 the only verse that mentions two salats in a certain format - salat wusta doesn't count since it has a different form or whatever.

Point 2 Verse 2458 the only verse that mentions two salats in a plural address to the mumineen - not sure how does that advances anything.

Point 3 AD VERBATIM it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical.

Where is the logic ? What you proposed in point 1 and 2 do not justify point 3. In other words, BIAS. Hence the flaw of your argument.
You took 2458,selectively attributed some characteristics to it, format + plural address to the mumineen (How does that give it any power?) ,jumps to point 3 to claim this "understanding" is the most logical coherent understanding, hello ?

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
You say, quote
peace GL,
"ghurub" can refer to "setting/withdrawing/departing / becoming remote". You never showed in any verse it means "sunset" (i.e. sun below horizon). I have already covered 20130 in my SaBiH article which is linked in the article. Have you read it?

Do you mean the setting of the sun and sunset are two different things?
You are playing a strange game , every translation has setting of the sun /sunset for the verses(5039 and 20130) like you translated 1778. Are you changing your translation of 1778 now?
Translate 5039 and 20130 for us then?
As for the sun below horizon , it is ambiguous, how long after?, Once Ghurub/sunset happens anytime after is after sunset and not sunset.
It is strange how you are playing with meaning of words to get out of the problem!

Qoran even deals with when the sun is below the horizon a ,here
Chapter 6 The cattle سورة الأنعام - Al-Anaam Verse 78
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ
Afalat, ,where does your duluk come into it?
Oh and here is your translation,quote
1778 uphold the salat (at/for) the setting of the sun / sunset to the darkness of the night and reading (of) the dawn...
You translate Duluk Al Shams as setting of the sun/sunset
Now check all the translations of Qoran about 5039 and 20130 they all have setting of the sun//sunset for ghurub.
There is only one setting of the sun/sunset brother.

Now the second issue you say ,quote
Re time frame
I think I see the point you are trying to make now, and that is
According to you if Quran meant do salat from A to B continuous it would have said "do salat bayna/between A ila/wa B".
Whereas I have understood A ila/to B to mean continuous, i.e. do salat from A to B. (and this is not your view)

No ,that is not what I said. I will have to explain again
Time frame is between two times. you are saying that 1778 gives a time frame. The Arabic of the verse does not agree with you.
if you take it as from-to, like you do it gives the total lenght of the salat.. i.e one continuous long salat?
If it was a time frame of between two times the Arabic would have been "Bayna-ila/wa..

So I am asking you if it is one long continuous salat give us the details of it to see if if there exist such a salat.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

peace Cerebrus,
Ahh I see your confusion. You think my list below is sequential, i.e. point 1 leads to point 2 leads to point 3 etc. It's not sequential. I didn't think people would take it as sequential so I may have to clarify that. How about I reword it to

Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this are as follows, listed in no particular order

there are only two salat mentioned in The Quran in a reference format (see 2458, salat al fajr, and, salat al isha). Note that "al salat al wusta" in 2238 is not in the same form .
the ONLY verse in the plural address to the mumineen which mentions a timed-salat is 2458 which only has two timings.
it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical.
it is the ONLY understanding that I have seen which respects the Arabic (i.e. other understandings ignore word forms, grammar, are inconsistent or make baseless claims)
all verses in the plural address which mention a timed-SaBiH/glorification or timed-THiKR/rememberance reference morning and evening (i.e. two timings)
all verses which mention a timed-SaBiH or timed-THiKR which could be interpreted as more than two timings are in the singular address
it is the ONLY understanding that can encompass other salat-timing systems such as thrice daily, or 5 daily, since it is a minimum of two.
8 ) it is the ONLY understanding that shows when The Quran mentions salat timings in a verse it always mentions the obligatory timings (i.e. two) together, unlike other understandings which say Quran sometimes mentions two here, three there, one here, one there etc. Making the understanding presented here the clearest of the variant views.
it is the ONLY timing system which works in all parts of the world. This will be explained later..

I recommend you research the form "al salat al wusta" in comparison to "salat al fajar", and if you feel the use of singular and plural address in Quran is haphazard and thus irrelevant that's up to you.

peace GL,
Yes I view "setting of the sun" and "sunset" as slightly different. Why did you think I put both in, for the fun of it? Have you even read my articles? I note you dodged answering if you had actually read the articles I referred you to. I will not answer any further questions from you that are already explained in the articles I refer you to. If you don't want to read them that's up to you.

You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).

Ok, now I understand what you are saying about time frame. Here is a little tip, why not clarify and say something like this
Do you take "time frame" to mean

one continuous length of time, i.e. that whole period is the length of the timed-salat
or
a time period in which one can do the timed-salat, i.e. it does not have to be for the whole length of the time period.

See how easy that was?

I take it as (1) but as I said before, in my view, the Quran is giving an exemplar/model to follow.

In any case, my point regarding evidence still stands, if you take 1778 as do salat at A (i.e. noon in your view) then it would be nice to have some examples from Quran. The best examples would be other verses with a command X li A ila B, but there may be no other examples, I haven't researched it as it's a difficult thing to research.