New article: salat timings as per The Quran

[Wakas]

Also sidenote, you state here that fajr salah begins at twilight. Can you remind me where this stems from? Why does it not start from full darkness prior to twilight?

In my article I clearly state the verses "11114, 1778, 2458..."

I'm not against it starting at the full darkness just prior to morning twilight as it's not like its an exact science, i.e. it's not like everyone knows the exact second when dark night ends and when morning twilight begins. It's a guide, an exemplar. In practical terms I do not see why it would be started at dark night because it's dark, more difficult to see where one is going and since reading of Quran is likely involved (depending on your view of the regular/timed salat of the mumineen) then being able to see the text helps.

Your updated pic does not conflict with anything I wrote. Please read what I wrote, quote

Two common interpretations have been to take "duluk al-shams" as "sunset" or "sinking/rubbing/pressing of the sun" (i.e. from when the lower edge of the sun disc rubs/touches the horizon). I have personally swayed between these two understandings. The primary signification of DLK is rubbing, and if this is coupled with 20130 wherein it says "before the setting/departing of the sun" then this would fit. In other words, "duluk al-shams" can mean when the sun's lower edge rubs the horizon BEFORE sunset.
If we consider one undertaking 'salat al-fajr' (the salat of/at dawn) then it is easy to realise one may crossover timewise into some point after sunrise, due to concentration/focus and/or finishing recitation/reading etc. In other words, going from "before the rising of the sun" (i.e. dawn) to after the sun's rising, i.e. "edges of the daytime" in this instance.
Thus, the "edges of the daytime" could be incorporated under the 'salat al-fajr' and 'salat al-3sha' periods, especially so if one wished to extend these periods in length.

Perhaps I could add a link to your pic to explain what I mean (in case anyone still doesn't get it).

THINK about it in practical terms. If one is undertaking salat al fajr do you expect to have one eye on Quran* and one eye on the horizon to make sure the sun does not cross over? Of course not. What if one is halfway through a verse do they stop as soon as they glimpse the sun might be above horizon? Of course not.

*or if you think it means prayer then do you expect to be looking down and up constantly or looking around to make sure the sun doesn't cross the horizon.

Further does anyone honestly think God, the almighty, the merciful, is going to care if you are a few mins out here or there, or you didn't start/stop at the exact time. Not the God I believe in.

Let me state again, quote

No matter where one is in the world all societies have a morning (activity/working period) and evening time (sleep/rest period). Of course this would mean there is no set time-range for each salat in this scenario, which is not a problem in my view, and the morning and evening time-ranges in Quran can be taken as exemplars/models to follow.

[Fadiva]

Peace

So we have here 2 different opinions about the timing of salat

• 2 salats with durations from the very beginind of the day ( twilight ?) to sunrise and from the decline of the sun (when it become to darken) to the night.
• 3 salats with a time range; one whe the day begins before sunrise, one when the sun start it decline ( from the highest point) and it ends in night so it has to be performed before night and the third just before night or at night ? if just befor night, they are two salats in the time range from decline to night.
  As described as above, it seems confusing the highest point of the sun to night one or two salat in this time range?

Let's sees the verses mentioned

Here are two translations

added words
the words which understandings can be different (came to this conclusion after seeing different translations from different translators and some posts here)
phonetics of the arabic words
17.78
Sahih International Establish prayer (aqimi al salata) at the decline (li duluki)of the sun until (ila) the darkness of the night (ghasaqi al layli)and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.

Pickthall Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.

Here are a few translations of the words from coran-seul.com that i translated into English

aqimi 2nd person singular ( masculine) imperative verb stand, stay still, remain still, reamin, wach, fulfill, keep, maintain
salata noun prayer, connexion, contact,
duluki noun from the root of the verb rub, polish, set/go down
ila preposition towards , until
ghasaqi noun darkening, end or ending of the day, twilight. From the verb it is also suggested to spread
layli noun night, darkness, lack of light

We can also have
17.78 ( first part)
Maintain the connexion/salat at the setting/going down of the sun towards (or until) (the) darkening of the night and quran/recitation/study (at) dawn.
Here al salata the salat, so one salat.

the following verse is

17.79
Sahih International And from the night, pray with it as additional for you; it is expected that your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station.

" word by word"

And from (mina from, "coming" from) the nuit stay awake withi it additional for you it can be that resurrect your Lord a station praiseworthy.

Layl here is dark night, I can only understand it. Layl = night

I will continue tomorrow inshaAllah.
If you could not post anything before in order to let me continue this one, it would be more convenient for me.

God bless you.
InshaAllah.

[ths]

added words
the words which understandings can be different (came to this conclusion after seeing different translations from different translators and some posts here)
phonetics of the arabic words
17.78
Sahih International Establish prayer (aqimi al salata) at the decline (li duluki)of the sun until (ila) the darkness of the night (ghasaqi al layli)and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.

Pickthall Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.

Peace,

I'd say that dulook means 'the rubbing'. So the phrase 'dulook il-shams' is 'the rubbing of the sun'. Even in modern Arabic you can say 'dalaka anfih'
دلك أنفه
(he rubbed his nose).
So I interpret that phrase as this

http//www.androidguys.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/summer-sunset-293095.jpg

I also like the fact that everyone can visibly see this by looking up at the sky. No need to be a professional astrophysicist to determine when you're supposed to pray.

[Fadiva]

Peace

So we have here 2 different opinions about the timing of salat

• 2 salats with durations from the very beginind of the day ( twilight ?) to sunrise and from the decline of the sun (when it become to darken) to the night.
• 3 salats with a time range; one whe the day begins before sunrise, one when the sun start it decline ( from the highest point) and it ends in night so it has to be performed before night and the third just before night or at night ? if just befor night, they are two salats in the time range from decline to night.
  As described as above, it seems confusing the highest point of the sun to night one or two salat in this time range?

Let's sees the verses mentioned

Here are two translations ( you can check other translations)

added words
the words which understandings can be different (came to this conclusion after seeing different translations from different translators and some posts here)
phonetics of the arabic words
17.78
Sahih International Establish prayer (aqimi al salata) at the decline (li duluki)of the sun until (ila) the darkness of the night (ghasaqi al layli)and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.

Pickthall Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.

Here are a few translations of the words from coran-seul.com that i translated into English

aqimi 2nd person singular ( masculine) imperative verb stand, stay still, remain still, reamin, wach, fulfill, keep, maintain
salata noun prayer, connexion, contact,
duluki noun from the root of the verb rub, polish, set/go down
ila preposition towards , until, at ?
ghasaqi noun darkening, end or ending of the day, twilight. From the verb it is also suggested to spread
layli noun night, darkness, lack of light

We can also have
17.78 ( first part)
Maintain the connexion/salat at the setting/going down of the sun towards (or until) (the) darkening of the night and quran/recitation/study (at) dawn.
Here al salata the salat, so one salat.

the following verse is

17.79
Sahih International And from the night, pray with it as additional for you; it is expected that your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station.

" word by word"

And from (mina from, "coming" from) the night stay awake withi it additional for you it can be that resurrect your Lord a station praiseworthy.

Layl here is dark night, I can only understand it. Layl = night

I will continue tomorrow inshaAllah.
If you could not post anything before in order to let me continue this one, it would be more convenient for me.

God bless you.
InshaAllah.

Salam,

I asked not to post before i finish the post, but it's alright
Yes ths, i think we can interpret this way.

here the following

2.238

Sahih International Maintain (hafizou) with care the prayers (al salawati) and the middle prayer (wal salati al wusta) and stand before Allah , devoutly obedient.
Pickthall Be guardians of your prayers, and of the midmost prayer, and stand up with devotion to Allah.
Shakir Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah.

Hafizou 2nd person plural (masculine) keep, preserve, maintain, protect
salawati plural noun, note the author in coran-seul.com added in brackets « 3 or more », with the plural al salawati he understood a minimum of three, it needs to be checked.
Wal and the ; salati translated in the singular form so not understood as a plural.
Al wusta definite article + adjective the middle, the intermediate, the moderating ?

Maintain/be consistent on the salawati (plural 3 or more?) and the salati the middle/moderate and stand to Allah in devoutness.

If the plural salawati means 3 or more, then there are at least 3 salats, if not the plural here means 2 but need to be clarified.
Is al salati al wusta included in the salawati ? We've got « wa » which means « and »

24.58

Arberry O believers, let those your right hands own (aymanoukoum no mention of yad) and those of you who have not reached puberty ask leave of you three times -- before the prayer of dawn (min qabli salati al fajri), and when you put off your garments at the noon (mina al zahiyrati), and after the evening prayer (wa min ba3di al salati al 3ichai)-- three times of nakedness for you. There is no fault in you or them, apart from these, that you go about one to the other. So God makes clear to you the signs; and God is All-knowing, All-wise.

Al fajri =>fajr the dawn, morning, first light, beginning
al zahiyrati =>Zhor the meridian, noon. From the root of the verb appear, unveil
al 3ichai => 3icha the night/dark night

In this verse, I read that there are two salats one at/during fajr, another at/during 3icha
Those are preceded by min or mina which means from ( provenance), in, during ( if time ), at ?
I can honestly deduce that there isn't here salat at « at noon » because not mentioned and I can't say it is alluded,

2.130

Shakir Bear then patiently what they say, and glorify your Lord by the praising of Him(waçabih bihamdi rabika) before the rising of the sun (Toulou3i al chamsi) and before its setting (ghouroubiha), and during hours of the night (wamin anai al layli) do also glorify (Him) and during parts of the day (wa aTrafa al nahari), that you may be well pleased

Arberry So be thou patient under what they say, and proclaim thy Lord's praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and proclaim thy Lord's praise ( fa çabih) in the watches of the night, and at the ends of the day; haply thou wilt be well-pleasing.

Çabih 2nd person singular (masculine) pray, praise, glorify
bihamdiwith praise(s)
Toulou3i rising
ghouroud disappearance, setting,
anai moments approaching night ?noun from the root of the verb to come close to, to approach, to slow down
layli night/dark night
aTrafa plural noun the author in coran-seul.com seems to understand a minimun of 3 ends, edges
naharinoun translated as day (light)

One can ask the question seeing the translations is it here about salat ?

Before the rising of the sun
before the setting of the sun
when approaching the night
ends of the day (a minimum of 3 if the plural means it)

We have also
50.39-40
Shakir Therefore be patient of what they say, and sing the praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting.
Shakir And glorify Him in the night and after the prayers.
Arberry So be thou patient under what they say, and proclaim thy Lord's praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting,
Arberry and proclaim thy Lord's praise in the night, and at the ends of the prostrations.

As suggested by one member of this forum, it would better to know what salat is before talking about its timing because some consider praise or glorifying as salat and other not really and the count is different.
The contexts have to be taken in consideration.

And we have verse with verbs in the singular (masculine) in the whole quran, they seem to be adressed to the messenger. We must know which are exclusively for the messenger.

[Wakas]

peace Fadiva,

Have you read these articles
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

[Fadiva]

Salam Wakas,

After reading the articles you have given and considering my knowledge in the day of today, I can't say you're wrong.
You've said there are only two salat mentioned in the Quran ( two named salat salat al fajr and salat al icha), I read the occurences mentioning salat and several verses, in my readings I find salati al fajri, salati al 3ichai and wal (wa +al) salati al wusta which seems different from the others in its formulation. Fajri, 3achai but wusta. Seems like fajri and 3chai translate a period of time but not wusta (adjective).

About verse 2.238, I read from different members here that wusta could mean best, which can fit.
In different occurences it can be translated as average, just, or best.

Another observation, the context as noticed by a member. I checked again the verses and I noted

2.235. Marriage proposal concerning widows
2.236. Divorce and non appointed faridatan
2.237. Divorce and appointed faridatan
2.238 . Hafizou 3ala al salawati wal salati al wusta...
2.239. If fear do on foot or rukbanan. If safe do it as teached...
2.240. Testament for the spouses.
2.241. Divorce and allowance

Any thought?

We will talk about the rest later if needed, inchaAllah.

[Iyyaka]

Another observation, the context as noticed by a member. I checked again the verses and I noted

2.235. Marriage proposal concerning widows
2.236. Divorce and non appointed faridatan
2.237. Divorce and appointed faridatan
2.238 . Hafizou 3ala al salawati wal salati al wusta...
2.239. If fear do on foot or rukbanan. If safe do it as teached...
2.240. Testament for the spouses.
2.241. Divorce and allowance

Any thought?

We will talk about the rest later if needed, inchaAllah.

Salam,

For the structure of this passage which is inside an another bigger structure see the link at page 43 from the pdf and related notes
https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf

Peace

[Iyyaka]

peace Fadiva,
Have you read these articles
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

Peace Wakas,

I re-read your article again and i qote you "Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil"

The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?

[Wakas]

peace,

Peace Wakas,

I re-read your article again and i qote you "Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil"

The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?

At the end of the article

Background reading links
An Understanding of salat from Al Quran (The Reading)
The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran - Part 1
The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran - Part 2
According to Traditional Islamic sources how many times did the earliest Muslims perform salat?
Articles and past discussions about timings reference one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve

Specifically part 11 of
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-quran.pdf

Please see the pdf version because I just realised there is a small part missing from the webpage which I will fix later.

[Iyyaka]

Ok - but not easy to find your opinion for the word l-ṣalawāti in verse (here it is https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.msg195966#msg195966).

So, to avoid a contradiction, you definied the meaning of the word "l-ṣalawāti" as not a reference to a ritual prayer.
You used the verse to admit your conclusion. I think you can include the verse too.
But the context is not the same, and it is clear in the segment that God points toward ritual prayers (verse 239 is not ambiguous with the context of war like in ).

Notes 16 to 20 may help you to have a better view of the structuration of the passage D' (from verse 2178 to verse 2242), especially note 20 (page 65 here https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf).

NB
I would like to take this opportunity to answer again on a point on which you questioned me (link here -> https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611227.0), I quote you "Context doesn't mention length/duration".
Yes you're right, but it is the same for charity/alms in the verse (no precise indication) "Do not keep your hand chained to your neck, nor open it too wide, otherwise you will find yourself blamed, full of remorse."
=> Once again we find the theme of moderation, of the golden mean that at the heart of the passage D'.

[Wakas]

I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the points I raise in the article. Let's start with the very first one

In 2238 The Quran makes no reference to the "salawaat" being "in a day"

This point alone is enough to critically damage your initial claim of
"The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?"

[Iyyaka]

I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the points I raise in the article. Let's start with the very first one

This point alone is enough to critically damage your initial claim of
"The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?"

I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the remarks i made to you (Did you even click on the link i gave you ? i am not sure..).

You seems so convinced that you have analyzed all the options and come to the only valid conclusion that finally there is no place for a real debate.

Why the Quran needed to add the expression "in a day" ? I don't understand this argument and how it can "damage my initial claim".
The Quran tells you to observe carefully (imperative form) the prayers you have to perform ? how many different and obligatory ones are there ? 2 according to you but the word refers to 3 minimum. So, the question is quite simple where is (at least) the third prayer in your reflection?

In addition, in the word "l-ṣalawāti" you find the lam of determination.
+
Verb (form III) - to guard
(22381) ḥāfiẓū Guard strictly حَافِظُوا عَلَى الصَّلَوَاتِ وَالصَّلَاةِ الْوُسْطَىٰ
(69222) yuḥāfiẓūna (are) guarding وَهُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
(2395) yuḥāfiẓūna they guard وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَوَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
(70345) yuḥāfiẓūna keep a guard وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
=> Note the difference in sentence structure and grammatical form between verse and the other 3. In these three verses it is about evoking all the prayers of all believers, whereas in verse 238 it is about believers observing THE prescribed prayers.

[good_logic]

Here is the problem that I can see with this verse

حٰفِظوا عَلَى الصَّلَوٰتِ وَالصَّلوٰةِ الوُسطىٰ وَقوموا لِلَّهِ قٰنِتينَ

You shall consistently guard/look after/observe... THE SALAWAT, and/ also/especially THE SALAT ALWASTA and devote yourselves totally to God.

What are "THE SALAWAT"? Why mention another" THE SALAT ALWUATA" with them? What is the meaning of "KUMU kANITEEN"?

The "AL" in Arabic denotes something known/specific. The prophet and believers knew exactly what to Guard/ look after...consistently,Or didn t they?

Should "in a day" be a question? Why?

One would easily argue there is no "in a day" or" in a week" or" in a year" or "in your lifetime" in the verse. So what can be the most logical? The most likely? Or has the verse got nothing to do with prayers?

The next verse will shed light on this
فَإِن خِفتُم فَرِجالًا أَو رُكبانًا فَإِذا أَمِنتُم فَاذكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَما عَلَّمَكُم ما لَم تَكونوا تَعلَمونَ
If you fear/Under unusual circumstances, you may ( Guard/Hafidhu them - The Salawat and The Salat Al Wusta )walking or riding. Once you are safe/back to normal circumstances-, you shall commemorate God as He taught you what you never knew.
Why "Udhkuru" commemorate-?

For me both verses are most likely talking about the "connection/prayers£ subscribed .
The terms "KUMU KANETEEN" AND "UDHKURU ALLAH" used are both are also used for the Salat that Qoran prescribed to Moses before " Wa Aquimi The Salat Li Dhikri"

In my opinion Qoran is talking about guarding consistently the "daily prayers" even when busy with work and travel "daily" i.e under unusual circumstances.

NOTE With 2 prayers per day one can never have 1 Salat wusta as the numbers are always even whether per day, per week or per year.?
GOD bless .
Peace.

[Iyyaka]

The next verse will shed light on this
فَإِن خِفتُم فَرِجالًا أَو رُكبانًا فَإِذا أَمِنتُم فَاذكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَما عَلَّمَكُم ما لَم تَكونوا تَعلَمونَ
If you fear/Under unusual circumstances, you may ( Guard/Hafidhu them - The Salawat and The Salat Al Wusta )walking or riding. Once you are safe/back to normal circumstances-, you shall commemorate God as He taught you what you never knew.
Why "Udhkuru" commemorate-?
For me both verses are most likely talking about the "connection/prayers£ subscribed .
The terms "KUMU KANETEEN" AND "UDHKURU ALLAH" used are both are also used for the Salat that Qoran prescribed to Moses before " Wa Aquimi The Salat Li Dhikri"
In my opinion Qoran is talking about guarding consistently the "daily prayers" even when busy with work and travel "daily" i.e under unusual circumstances.

Peace Good logic,

Thanks for your contribution - yes the context in is obvious and this verse is naturally linked to the previous verse.

I add an intra-textual proof on the subject of verse 239 the expression "ʿallamakum mā takūnū taʿlamūna" is found almost identically in another verse, verse which unambiguously deals with the common prayer performed by the prophet (pbsl).

[Fadiva]

Salam,

True. While debating one should point all the passages he doesn't agree and give proof or at least show why his understanding is different.

Just a few points and questions

I noticed
Salati al fajri, salati al 3ichai and wal (wa +al) salati al wusta which seems different from the others in its formulation. Fajri, 3achai but wusta. Seems like fajri and 3chai translate a period of time but not wusta (adjective).

2.238 where is the word "especially"? Have you read all the verses with the word wa and derive from it " And especially " ?
Why should one be more likely forget or do not a salat during the day than salat al fajri for instance?
You've mentioned because of business. But in some countries, where it's hot, one can notice that a lot of people don't open their shops or don't work until 3 or 4 p.m.

On this verse we can read salawati which seems to be a plural meaning a minimum of three and we can read
wal salati al wusta so if we don't add a word one can understand here a minimum of 4 salats unless he proves that it it is "especially". One other can understand all the salats and the how salat should be (wusta as adjective).

And we can read 24.58

Here one translation
Arberry O believers, let those your right hands own and those of you who have not reached puberty ask leave of you three times -- before the prayer of dawn, and when you put off your garments at the noon, and after the evening prayer -- three times of nakedness for you. There is no fault in you or them, apart from these, that you go about one to the other. So God makes clear to you the signs; and God is All-knowing, All-wise.

By just reading not deducing, salat of dawn, evening salat but "when you put off your garments at the noon".

Good logic said
"Should "in a day" be a question? Why?

One would easily argue there is no "in a day" or" in a week" or" in a year" or "in your lifetime" in the verse. So what can be the most logical? The most likely? Or has the verse got nothing to do with prayers?"

Why should be "in a day" In verse 2.238 the most likely? Can you explain it?

Why should one deduce from " When you put off your garments at noon", that it is a salat while it is mentioned for dawn and dusk?

I am just pointing some things.
I am trying to be as honest as possible and not saying you're right or I'm right.
But read, reread, notice, not deduce to fast we have to read all the verses.
Question yourself. We are humans, we can mistakes.

So maybe it's better the restart and take point by point the claimimgs and give proofs he you have.

[nimnimak_11]

Peace all

So I followed the discussion between good logic and Wakas till around page 6 of this thread and wanted to say the following

First of all, Wakas, to me, you seemed hostile towards Good logic. You asked for feedback with such passion that you offered money, then, when feedback was given, your manner of debating was not good in my opinion.

I read Good logic's posts and yours and I think he was more justified than you (not just in the manner of debating (I reckon I would have retaliated to some of your sarcasm), but also in what was being said with regards to duluk al-shams). I did not see him necessarily pushing for something firm regarding salat overall in what I would describe as an oppressive manner, whereas I think this was true of you. He highlighted one thing that was pretty clear

Duluk al shams is when the sun begins to decline (if you are going to take duluk to mean decline that is). This is clear. There is no need to try and force additionals after you take duluk to mean decline. By this I mean there is no need to argue that this is specifically in reference to sunset. To my interpretation of you, you were only doing this to try and make it fit with your idea of what Salat is (not just the timing of salat, but salat itself). Whereas good logic was just highlighting something that is clear (duluk al shams cannot be taken to mean sunset without bias being involved).

[Wakas]

peace n11,

Thanks for your take but I cannot take your main point seriously, quote
"Duluk al shams is when the sun begins to decline (if you are going to take duluk to mean decline that is). This is clear."

Anyone who looks at the classical Arabic meanings can easily see this is obviously not the case. At most one can say it can theoretically mean what you said.

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.

Quote "Whereas good logic was just highlighting something that is clear (duluk al shams cannot be taken to mean sunset without bias being involved)."

Just like bias is involved in any other chosen meaning (since it's only used once). I'm the one who pointed this out so you're in agreement with me. I came up with a simple way to minimise bias, i.e. slot in whatever understanding/options there are and see what happens with each one. Unfortunately simplicity is not often appreciated.

[nimnimak_11]

Peace Wakas

It's good to hear from you and engage you in conversation again.

Anyone who looks at the classical Arabic meanings can easily see this is obviously not the case. At most one can say it can theoretically mean what you said.

You are right. What I was trying to convey was that if we take duluk to mean "decline", then we should take it to refer to when the sun begins to decline (which begins at noon). If we take it to mean sunset, then we have ignored all the previous points of the decline of the sun (which feels incomplete or inconsistent to me).

Just like bias is involved in any other chosen meaning (since it's only used once).

Ok, but good logic's bias was of one layer, whereas I felt yours was two-fold. By this I mean a meaning had to be chosen and discussed regarding the word "duluk". Both you and good logic seemed to agree to focus on "decline". Good logic did not project anything extra. I think it was an excessive stretch to assert that the decline of the sun mentioned in 1778 is only in reference to sunset. This is where you asked for each other for proof of who was right, whereas I think the burden of proof was exclusively on you (because good logic was being consistent with the meaning "decline" without over-stretching. You were over-stretching and thus needed to prove that this over-stretching was justified). Again, you had both agreed on the "decline" aspect of duluk.

I'm the one who pointed this out so you're in agreement with me. I came up with a simple way to minimise bias, i.e. slot in whatever understanding/options there are and see what happens with each one. Unfortunately simplicity is not often appreciated.

I agree that we should slot in whatever understanding/option there are and then choose whichever's most sincere to God/Good/Truth.

Simplicity is good, and I think we have to recognise that one possible reason the Quran is not clear to us at times, is because our sincerity to God is not clear/pure/unbiased/consistent for us to be worthy of such clarity. To me, we're all in a race to see who is least evil/unfair in relation to God/Truth/Goodness.

In our attempts to obtain truth/understanding from God, if we overstep, we may deprive ourselves of the correct understanding, and then end up upholding an incorrect understanding (incorrect in that we feel/think it insincere to God but uphold it anyway) which could either deprive of us of greater goods, or worse, bring us hardship. The right effect (genuine awe of existing in Existence/God) has to fall into place. It requires that we truly depend on the Godliness/Perfection/Goodness of God. We must appreciate Mercy and treat the Merciful as Merciful. Some seek to take advantage of this (Satan) and seem to try to force God's Hand (the jews in relation to Christ). Some can conceive of mercy greater than the one they attribute to God, yet they treat God as not possessing that kind of mercy. I really think that we are in a race to see who is least evil in relation to the wholly innocent of evil, and wholly good/generous/merciful.

I hope I have not written in excess Wakas. But I like sharing things about God that I think are good to share.

[Wakas]

peace n11,

No you never wrote in excess, it's all good.

The primary signification of DLK is rub/squeeze/press. I doubt you will find much disagreement on this but it doesn't matter if there is disagreement or not, what matters is out of the available options what is the result of each. Put all the options on the table and let's see which stands up to scrutiny.

I put my take out there for all to inspect and bring a clear error/flaw/contradiction/etc and as you can see in this thread nothing of significance was brought. I think the most that could be said was "X could theoretically mean something else" (this is a non-point), "I misinterpreted your article" (ok, so I added a few words to clarify it), "you haven't proven X means that" (nice but irrelevant to the complete picture working or not), "there is another phrase in Quran which could mean that (unproven implication being that this means nothing else can mean the same in Quran)" etc. These are not what I (and hope you) call clear error/flaw/contradiction. They are what I commonly term "fluff".

[jkhan]

Peace...
I am extremely sorry, you don't respond as it deserve...
If you think ORDER OF REVELATION is not verifiable then at least you could have pointed out flaw in it... It's OK.. I won't compel you to take it... If you take... That's the end of your two salat conviction....

My inner instinct says keep away from this topic, but something is propelling me go tell the people those who would reflect... So dear Waqas.. These replies not gonna make any sense... But let people decide what is right...

So.. Whatever God guided me with, I submit to people..

My point is to those who reflect ...

If Waqas say 1778 is Salat Al Isha and if the timing for it.. That is to say..from sun set darkness of night... Ponder... Then what is the meaning of 11114 ... For what reason...
11114 is referring Two Ends of Nahar... So one of the Salat is Isha... The other one is Fajr...

Anyone tell me with common sense...
*** If God explained Isha Salat with extra verse 1778 by explaining its timing, why skipped the timing of Fajr by extra verse?
What is the time of Fajr??

So we have to trace the time of Fajr by 11114 ONLY? WHY..
IF we can trace the time of Fajr by merely the verse of 11114 then why can't we trace the timing of Isha which is the one of the TWO Ends..

What logic in it folks..?

So God thought that people will not be able trace the timing of 11114 of the timing of Isha so HE should explain with additional verse.. What a nonsensical way that is?

So how's the way of finding timing of Fajr self?

Impossible my dear fellow brothers and sisters.. That's not the way of God...

Can anyone tell what is the timing of Fajr without the verse of 11114? No Right.. Coz 11114 is very manifest... So if one salat is manifest why other end is unclear? Further 1778 and 11114 doesn't even look identical.. You know why? 11114 is "zulafan minal layl" while 1778 is "Ila ghashakal aL lail"

Are these identical my dear fellow believers ? May be for Waqas... Not for me... God doesn't need to confuse people.. And He explained so simply without ambiguity.. But you took it and conventional people took it upside down..

But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical..

To say Yes.. You have to be out of your mind...

Hope it benefits for those who reflect..

So isn't 11114 enough for both the salat, if the same verse merely is enough for Fajr Salat?

Peace all my believing brothers and sisters..

Since N11 has dug this topic again, let me pose the same Question answered by anyone who take salat as two..

11114 gives two timing of salat Fajr and isha.. (thoss who claim only two salat God prescribed, do agree with this verse)
If 11114 explains completly the timing of Fajr and if 11114 is enough to understand the timing of Fajr Salat, then big Question is why 11114 is NOT enough to understand timing of Salat Isha?
Why salat isha needs to be explained by another verse 1778 so people take dulak to meridian OR sunset..what a dilemma ?
Does God think people would understand One End Of Nahar(day) easily and the other End is tough so He might remind them with another additional verse 1778?

Can anyone take my challenging question and reply with logic if you pray two times only so that I also be satisfied why you pray two times..