New article: salat timings as per The Quran

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
The setting of the sun means only one things sunset. i.e sun has just set-gone below horizon-. However you say this, quote
peace GL,
Yes I view "setting of the sun" and "sunset" as slightly different. Why did you think I put both in, for the fun of it? Have you even read my articles? I note you dodged answering if you had actually read the articles I referred you to. I will not answer any further questions from you that are already explained in the articles I refer you to. If you don't want to read them that's up to you.

You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).

In this case why put both in your translation if you view them as slightly different? And how different? Explain how the setting of the sun and sunset differ? You do not make sense?

Now you give me your weakest verse from Qoran that duluk Al Shams is sunset? The weakest you can find?

Brother, you are now just insisting that regardless of Qoran s view, your view is correct.
Your excuse is "I have not read your article",?
This is an obvious error in your translation of 1778, one does not need to go further ,If you are using two different times according to you( setting of the sun/sunset, then duluk Al Shams means both or both are the same?
Or is this not logical?

For the second issue I am asking you to detail this salat that Qoran is asking you to observe for the full duration from the setting of the sun/sunset to darkness. How long , what to do and how?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
I will deal with this point, quote
You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).

Verse - 50 39 فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ
Can only mean two things about the sun
Sunrise and sunset.
قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ Before the sun is visible, once it starts to rise it is no longer true as it is sunrise.(Otherwise the expression will describe which stage in the process of the rising of the sun)
Similarlyوَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ While the sun is still visible it is before sunset, hence Ghurub must be sunset,(Otherwise the expression would have given the stage of the process of the sun partly setting). Ghurub can only mean the sun not visible ,hence gone below the horizon.
Al Ghurub= sunset in this verse.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

jkhan

Peace...
I am extremely sorry, you don't respond as it deserve...
If you think ORDER OF REVELATION is not verifiable then at least you could have pointed out flaw in it... It's OK.. I won't compel you to take it... If you take... That's the end of your two salat conviction....

My inner instinct says keep away from this topic, but something is propelling me go tell the people those who would reflect... So dear Waqas.. These replies not gonna make any sense... But let people decide what is right...

So.. Whatever God guided me with, I submit to people..

My point is to those who reflect ...

If Waqas say 1778 is Salat Al Isha and if the timing for it.. That is to say..from sun set darkness of night... Ponder... Then what is the meaning of 11114 ... For what reason...
11114 is referring Two Ends of Nahar... So one of the Salat is Isha... The other one is Fajr...

Anyone tell me with common sense...
*** If God explained Isha Salat with extra verse 1778 by explaining its timing, why skipped the timing of Fajr by extra verse?
What is the time of Fajr??

So we have to trace the time of Fajr by 11114 ONLY? WHY..
IF we can trace the time of Fajr by merely the verse of 11114 then why can't we trace the timing of Isha which is the one of the TWO Ends..

What logic in it folks..?

So God thought that people will not be able trace the timing of 11114 of the timing of Isha so HE should explain with additional verse.. What a nonsensical way that is?

So how's the way of finding timing of Fajr self?

Impossible my dear fellow brothers and sisters.. That's not the way of God...

Can anyone tell what is the timing of Fajr without the verse of 11114? No Right.. Coz 11114 is very manifest... So if one salat is manifest why other end is unclear? Further 1778 and 11114 doesn't even look identical.. You know why? 11114 is "zulafan minal layl" while 1778 is "Ila ghashakal aL lail"

Are these identical my dear fellow believers ? May be for Waqas... Not for me... God doesn't need to confuse people.. And He explained so simply without ambiguity.. But you took it and conventional people took it upside down..

But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical..

To say Yes.. You have to be out of your mind...

Hope it benefits for those who reflect..

So isn't 11114 enough for both the salat, if the same verse merely is enough for Fajr Salat?

Cerberus

peace Cerebrus,
Ahh I see your confusion. You think my list below is sequential, i.e. point 1 leads to point 2 leads to point 3 etc. It's not sequential. I didn't think people would take it as sequential so I may have to clarify that. How about I reword it to

I recommend you research the form "al salat al wusta" in comparison to "salat al fajar", and if you feel the use of singular and plural address in Quran is haphazard and thus irrelevant that's up to you.

It's not me who is confusing anything. It is your article.

You have listed with numbers your arguments. At POINT 3 you refer to some "understanding" saying "it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical."

What understanding is it ? You presented 2 arguments before. Point 1 laid out your base argument. Point 2 added to it. Point 3 refered to an understanding. I already proved that whatever point 3 is refering to makes little sense in relation to Point 1 and Point 2 as they're not strong enough to justify Point 3.

Now you say they are not in order, meaning that Point 3 was randomly put there refering to an "understanding" that hasn't been laid out yet ? That seems like a flaw to me isn't it ?

Anyways, I said what I wanted to say. That's all for me here.

In relation to Salat in general, I don't think the typical quran-only approach of digging in linguistic and doing these kind of weird analysis of verses makes much sense. If SALAT had a purpose, then its purpose justifies its timing. Lay out the correct purpose of the salat and find out what is the most logical timings to fulfill it. It's not the other way around. This in my opinion is more logical than what you're trying to achieve in your article.

In my understanding of the purpose of "Salat" as a meditative act, I would say the start of one's day, throughout one's day and at the end of one's day. No more specific than that

hawk99

my understanding of the purpose of "Salat" as a meditative act, I would say the start of one's day, throughout one's day and at the end of one's day. No more specific than that

We agree.

Peace Brother Wakas another approach to consider would be to ascertain
when salat is prohibited , I think that would be an indicator of
how many salat there are.

peace

Wakas

peace GL,
I agree that in 5039 it could mean "before the setting / passing away / departing / retiring / removing /disappearing / remoteness (of the sun)." and the superficial understanding how you take it i.e. "sunset" (sun below horizon) is one possibility.
BUT as has been shown previously this word doesn't pinpoint at what exact point of this process it is referring to

You have refuted yourself. In 1886 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".

You then cited 1817 so let's take a closer look

"And you may have seen the sun when it rose inclining away from their cave to the right AND when it GhRBat passing away (from) them to the left..."

underlined words are perfect verbs
the verse states it would have possible to see what occurred to the sun
GhRBat is in the perfect tense BUT "passing away" (taqridu) is in the imperfect (i.e. an action incomplete or in the process of being done). Similarly "inclining away" is imperfect.

According to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?

Not only did you have no direct reply to any of the above, it is likely why you subtly changed your claim from "sunset" to ""Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..." i.e. the process of setting.

In any case, it doesn't make any difference to my view whether that word means sun below horizon or in the process of setting. I cover these verses here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

The reason I wrote "setting of the sun / sunset" in the article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
Is because I take "setting of the sun" to mean when the sun disc touches down on the horizon (i.e. rubs/press it, i.e. duluk) and "sunset" as when the sun is below the horizon. It just so happens "duluk al shams" could mean both. Unlike you (and some others) I'm not going to make a baseless claim it can only mean one thing. Such a claim is utter nonsense and damages the credibility of anyone who claims such a thing.

The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.

I simply chose a meaning that results in the utmost logic, coherence, practicality and clarity, and asked others to find a flaw/error in this understanding.

I will add another, it also results in symmetry of timings.

But I am partly to blame as I never clarified it DIRECTLY in my article and simply linked to an article which explained it further. I should have known some people wouldn't bother reading up on it before attempting to criticise. I may have to include that info directly at some point.

Wakas

Now you say they are not in order, meaning that Point 3 was randomly put there refering to an "understanding" that hasn't been laid out yet ? That seems like a flaw to me isn't it ?

Hasn't been laid out? It's in the first paragraph of the article!

Original

Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this are as follows

In any case I have updated the article and added the words in red to help clarify for you and others

Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this understanding are as follows, listed in no particular order

Wakas

peace jkhan,
I appreciate you trying to critique, but can you make one point at a time?

Also please ensure you have read my article carefully because you say things like this "But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical.." which clearly shows you have mistaken my view.

SarahY

There's a lot of ambiguity with salat.

I agree with you in that the Quran seems to emphasis and name 2 salats.

I don't know if I agree with it being the minimum because there seems to be a call to do more or to perform salat if called upon it in preference over transactions,sports or distractions see 6210-11

jkhan

peace jkhan,
I appreciate you trying to critique, but can you make one point at a time?

Also please ensure you have read my article carefully because you say things like this "But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical.." which clearly shows you have mistaken my view.

Salam Waqas...

Brother I did read your article or not is immaterial .. Coz I have read the Quran and it has guided me about Salat .. In addition your claim of Two Salat is not new for me... Coz I have read all your articles... But I never was against what you write which is in line with Quran... Unfortunately not this time...

Regardless of whatever written in your article, the truth from your side is two salat is your acceptance..

That's why I question you...
For you 1778 and 11114 both Salat Isha... That's what you say with transperancy....
So brother... 11114 and 1778 is same for you coz even how much you try to say No, it won't work out.. Coz Isha Salat has a timing and that timing for you is 11114 and 1778... But how different both the verses you failed to grasp (How come one take the same Salat by both the verses while both verses entirely different). So what is the point of asking me better read your article or saying you've mistaken my view..
Truth is You have mistaken horribly the three Salat and stuck in it without being able to get out of it...

I have given my knowledge of Quran to people... And it is not my intention to grab your 10$ ... Hope those who reflect would reflect...

ade_cool

Anyhow.. I don't know whether you believe in Quran order of revelation... If you don't believe in, then bring a single error according to Quran order of revelation and how the verses revealed.. I assure you, you will never be able to indicate a single.. For example fasting... If God said fast in Quran that verse cannot be before the verse when to fast..(verse may be before if in same chapter but not in another chapter) coz all chapter has order of revelation...

Salam jkhan,

Can you elaborate further regarding "Quran order of revelation" that you mentioned here? Perhaps in separate thread in order not to mix with the topic in this thread.

Wassalam,
Ade

jkhan

Peace.. Everyone...

How can Duluki shams be called as time of Isha.. Even if you insist that Duluki shams = sunset... Is SUNSET equal to ISHA.... Boy.. That's a big lie against Arabs and pure Arabic language.... Do you belie language of Arabic? That's far worse than conventional people who took Isha at its proper time...

Pay attention to 11114 carefully...
According to waqas... Two ends are point of Sunrise and Sunset... So Isha Salat timing is sorted out as the moment sunset UNTILL whatever of their choice of darkness.. So moment of sunset is = Isha literally ... That's a blasphemy to quran.. Has it ever recorded in any Arabic dictionary OR even in Quran that moment of sunset is = Isha... Bring evidence...

According to waqas the very starting point of Isha Salat (based on his research of both 1778 and11114) is Sunset,
Then logically the moment of salat Fajr undeniably Sunrise... thats incontrovertible... That's how TWO ENDs work out for waqas ... But unfortunately that's not the instructions of God... (That's why I always reiterate that TWO ENDs are TWO TWILIGHTS period... And From there, inwards to night period(Zulafan minal Lail) .. That's why while fasting, no sex after white thread at Fajr no food no drinks and not UNTILL sunrise... Huge difference is there with definition of Fajr and sunrise...

Is Sunrise equal to FAJR... Is minute/s before sunrise called Fajr in Arabic... We got to go in line with Arabic and the nature where quran was revealed when it comes timing reference and not the north pole climate.. Will extreme north pole climate ever suite for fasting or Salat instructions throughout the year?

If one take the meaning TWO ends as point of SUNRISE and SUNSET then I am afraid they will be in great dilemma to figure out the time of Fajr.....

Question arise in this way...
** Do they have to wait till sunrise as indication for beginning or ending .. That's far from possibility...
** So in that case why they wait till sunset and immediately pray at the other End.. Isha...

See how simple and how perfect if you take two ends are Two Twilights periods..

So instructions are very clear and undoubtedly befit to wording of Isha and Fajr in Arabic...

Two ends prayers are not in two twilights..... Both in the near parts (zulafan) of night... That's perfect period of Isha and Fajr in definition of Arabic ...

Your claim of Isha and Fajr never befits with wording of God and not the given time frame... And not even Arabic language... If one asked you to come at Isha, will you go and knock the door while sun setting? Lol.. You have to be none Arab to do that..

Use common sense in 2458 ... Instead of mentioning BEFORE FAJR salat permission, it is more befits before SUNRISE.. Coz last point of Fajr Salat according to you is sunrise... So kids needs to take permission before sunrise... Coz kids should know till sunrise parents are permitted to pray Fajr... So it is far better indication than before Fajr coz it's so manifest for kids coz no salat after sunrise .. So easy to confusion.. .
Meanwhile if one prayed Isha at the setting of sun then still full of light in the sky that is privacy period.. That's super bizzare... Nonsensical... reason of privacy is completely complicated by your timing brother waqas.. That doesn't befit according to the nature of where the quran was revealed.. At least there it takes 45-60 Minutes in summer...
Mid day privacy is basically coz of tiredness and heat ...but privacy of after isha and before Fajr may not be the same.. So kids worth asking permission...

Note... "put aside your clothes" ... This is but SUMMER and not WINTER ...
So this verse will never befit for winter season... Coz it is very unlikely that people would REMOVE Clothes midday during Winter and rest. . That's very inhuman... Why I say so is... clothes removing is not at all mentioned for before Fajr and after Isha.. Not at all required to state..... Isn't it? ..
But specifically why mentioned removing clothes removal at midday as if they won't remove clothes after isha till Fajr?
It is crystal clear the purpose of removing clothes at midday is coz of Heat.. They may remove depend on each.. Even they may not remove... So no privacy.. Is clothe removal for sex then does God force them to have sex at midday ? No way... So Is it must to remove cloths since God ordered three privacy times? No way... If they don't remove then there is no harm / sin in them... It's normal time as other time...
But what about after isha and before Fajr? It is must privacy in my understanding... Kids taking permission is mandatory... And kids and parents mingling during this time is not even encouraged.. But for necessity with permission ....
Note the addition in the verse "There is no fault/sin/harm in you or them, apart from these (three times), that you go about one to the other..

So had God mentioned in the verse 2458 as AFTER Salat Wusta privacy ... Too many confusions would have risen...
1..How Kids will judge that parents are having rest after Al Salat Al wusta OR without Salat... How even when they get up after rest they(kids) make sure that it is unrestricted time to mingle... Coz their only indication is Salat wusta if God mentioned so.. That's why it is not opted by God using salat... But other two Salat perfect... Before Fajr people in deep sleep and may be untidy with clothing... And after isha is of course night and needless to say.. And the time frame for both is very limited so kids will know by this time parents would have prayed.. So for after isha restrictions imposed and after Fajr restrictions lifted...
But it is impossible to use the word Salat for third privacy at midday.. So God rightly not used Salat ...

2.. Had God mentioned after Salat wusta privacy.. Then it will become mandatory that they Pray First then rest or remove clothes.. That's far from the truth of the time frame given by verse 1778...

If anyone has doubt of order of Salat.. Note 2458 how orderly God stated..
God mentioned first Salat Fajr... That's the start of day... Then mid day privacy (note above why Salat cannot be indication)
Third isha Salat and the day ends...
God could have mentioned first isha Salat then midday and then Fajr... But not.. He knows what is the order... No need to confuse...

Further if anyone has concern why the third Salat is called Wusta... Then my only answer is God has assigned two salat at twyo ENDs so the third Salat definitely befit between those two ENDs.. Coz it is clear according 2458 the Fajr Salat is first of the day...

Salat are Fajr > Wusta < Isha ...
Why wusta is emphasised.. Fajr and isha are falling in a more convenient time... Starting and end time... But wusta is falling busy time and vulnerable with worldly desires. .. It is not surprising why God revealed salat wusta first 1778...

Thanks for reading..

Wakas

peace jkhan,

Rather than making baseless claims, I recommend actually citing some evidence.

How can Duluki shams be called as time of Isha.. Even if you insist that Duluki shams = sunset... Is SUNSET equal to ISHA.... Boy.. That's a big lie against Arabs and pure Arabic language.... Do you belie language of Arabic? That's far worse than conventional people who took Isha at its proper time...

Pay attention to 11114 carefully...
According to waqas... Two ends are point of Sunrise and Sunset... So Isha Salat timing is sorted out as the moment sunset UNTILL whatever of their choice of darkness.. So moment of sunset is = Isha literally ... That's a blasphemy to quran.. Has it ever recorded in any Arabic dictionary OR even in Quran that moment of sunset is = Isha... Bring evidence...

Who knows Arabic language better jkhan or Arabic lexicons? Quote from lexicons

isha - commencement of darkness, early night, dusk, evening.

Fa-Jiim-Ra = ...dawn/sunrise/daybreak

That's how TWO ENDs work out for waqas ... But unfortunately that's not the instructions of God... (That's why I always reiterate that TWO ENDs are TWO TWILIGHTS period

That's what I'm saying! Quote from my article

salat al fajr / salat (of) the dawn/morning
As it's name suggests it is done around dawn (morning twilight). This can correctly be deemed one edge of the daytime and also involves a proximity of the night. Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.
To clarify this timed-salat begins at morning twilight and ends when any part of the sun first appears above the horizon (i.e. end of morning twilight)
salat al isha / salat (of) the dusk/evening
As it's name suggests it is done around dusk (evening twilight). This can correctly be deemed one edge of the daytime and also involves the proximites of the night. Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.
To clarify this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight).

I never read the rest of your post, sorry, as I consider your critique quality thus far to be poor. Hence why I recommended one point at a time to make things easier.

hawk99

Peace Wakas,

Is it your conclusion that there are 3 daily ritual salat?

Which prayer is 1778 referring to in your opinion?

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
You say ,quote
I agree that in 5039 it could mean "before the setting / passing away / departing / retiring / removing /disappearing / remoteness (of the sun)." and the superficial understanding how you take it i.e. "sunset" (sun below horizon) is one possibility.
BUT as has been shown previously this word doesn't pinpoint at what exact point of this process it is referring to

Explain how it could mean any other point than the ending of the setting? i.e sunset.
I have explained this and it makes a lot of sense ,
A deadline of before Al Ghurub pin points the exact time, End of daytime and beginning of night. i.e sunset Just like "
"before tului Al Shams" pinpoints at exactly the end of nightime and beginning of daytime. i.e sunrise.
The only logical explanation.

As for this, quote
The reason I wrote "setting of the sun / sunset" in the article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
Is because I take "setting of the sun" to mean when the sun disc touches down on the horizon (i.e. rubs/press it, i.e. duluk) and "sunset" as when the sun is below the horizon. It just so happens "duluk al shams" could mean both. Unlike you (and some others) I'm not going to make a baseless claim it can only mean one thing. Such a claim is utter nonsense and damages the credibility of anyone who claims such a thing.

With no evidence from Qoran, it remains your claim. And baseless at that just like you call the claims of others.. And your credibility remains intact? Not logical.
Brother. You claimed your work was without errors, now feww posts down the line you are adding these, quote

"In any case I have updated the article and added the words in red to help clarify for you and others"

"But I am partly to blame as I never clarified it DIRECTLY in my article and simply linked to an article which explained it further. I should have known some people wouldn't bother reading up on it before attempting to criticise. I may have to include that info directly at some point."

"In any case, my point regarding evidence still stands, if you take 1778 as do salat at A (i.e. noon in your view) then it would be nice to have some examples from Quran. The best examples would be other verses with a command X li A ila B, but there may be no other examples, I haven't researched it as it's a difficult thing to research.".

I am afraid that your article is your view, you may insist these are not really errors and argue around them, but the bottom line is that a sound argument with no errors does not require any tweeks or change.
For me, you are entitled to claim and stick with your claim, but can you see my point?
I explained "duluk" poin is a declinet, if a decline of the sun starts at Noon, just before sunset and sunset are points way after noon. And l to me you have not provided evidence from Qoran that your timing is the right point of decline or that it means any of them?
Remember you have not researched this point?

So it is understandable I see the two points of "sun setting and time frame as errors.. My aim in answering you is to make this point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

jkhan

Peace everyone ...

Concerns may be oozing to certain people.. what exactly Quran orders to pray and at what times... Why it is so hard and why so many contradictory convictions within those who accepts Quran alone for guidance..

But God with manifest verse stated, those are the successful who guard the Salat and they are believers.. 231-10

So, if we are to adhere to what Waqas claim either we are skipping one salat or doing extra salat/s... Whatever we do we go against God's instructions unless we opted the right guidance... Definitely it is not optional.. Isn't it?

The reason is.. God insist as an order to Guard the Salawat (prayers) 2238 meanwhile God claim those who guard salawat are believers and the successful ones 231-10..

Isn't there a serious issue creeping in then?.

Dear brothers and sisters.. Can we say to God ...
*** We were not aware what is written in Quran so we prayed 5 times...
*** We thought it is mentioned three times.. So we did continue..
*** W heard from people like waqas that it is 2 times so we skipped day prayer...

I just furnished possible statements that people may utter on the day of ressurection if we chose the wrong option...

So, people go for the best option and the best explanation within Quran and follow what God guides you with..

If everything is right, then there is no need for God to provide fixed timing for Salat and reiterate to guard them..

4103 "... ..... Verily, the PRAYER(singular) is enjoined on the believers at fixed hours" ...
Does it mean only one salat per day? Not at all..

Ultimately, nothing is argued or bought into table comprehensively by the author of the article...
So, I do remain with my understanding and continue to perform three times...
May Allah guide us all which takes us to Janna..

That's all I have to say on this topic... Had there been any reasonable logic in the debate, surely I would have paid attention to it.. But there is nothing...
Nothing more to say on this topic...

jemby97

Salam Everyone,

i think this video explaination by Brother Joseph Yaseen of Quran Centric will best explain this issue.

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKoYRWrsBiQ

Thank you.

Salam

jkhan