SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QURAN DEFENDED
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For centuries people including Christians, Jews and atheists have tried to disprove the scientific claims in the Quran. While all their arguments have been sucessfully disproved in the past they are now again coming up with new theories to discredit the clear scientific facts given in the Quran. While I?ve clearly defended all those claims I?ve also shown that it is always possible for extreme skeptics to criticize and discredit each and every thing no matter how clear the sign(s) and amazingly this very behaviour of such skeptics IS ALSO MENTIONED IN THE QURAN
If their rejection gets to be too much for you, you should know that even if you dug a tunnel through the earth, or climbed a ladder into the sky, and produced a miracle / sign for them (they still would not believe). Had GOD willed, He could have guided them, unanimously. Therefore, do not behave like the ignorant ones.
The miracle of the Quran contrary to the Bible is also that the Quran does not contain any elements which have been PROVEN to be FALSE by science while the Bible clearly does.Legend
O Objection (An objection which exists i.e. it has actually been made by some die hard atheists/agnostics)
D Defence
NKO No Known Objection
PO Possible Objection (made up by myself)- Footnote
- Example indicating that one suffocates while one goes upwards towards the sky
Whomever GOD wills to guide, He renders his chest wide open to Submission. And whomever He wills to send astray, He renders his chest intolerant and straitened, like one who climbs towards the sky.* GOD thus places a curse upon those who refuse to believe.
*6125 Centuries after the revelation of the Quran, we learned that the proportion of oxygen diminishes as we climb towards the sky, and we gasp for air.
Remarks
NKO
PO It may be claimed that this verse doesn?t link the fact that the chest becomes intolerant to the climbing up towards the sky but that chest here simply refers to the intellect, as it is also used in Arabic, which becomes sealed and thus understanding for such a person becomes as difficult as if one were to climb up towards the sky.
D Why does GOD link the chest becoming intolerant with the climbing up towards the sky? This can?t be a coincidence. Moreover ?Sadr? in Arabic primary means the physical ?chest?. The verse very clearly gives an analogy of the chest becoming intolerant just like if one were to climb up into the sky and this is thus the simplest understanding. So this verse qualifies the Occam?s razor test.- Olives and pomegranates have a very similar structure inside them and are yet diffrent in taste, size and colour
He is the One who established gardens, trellised and untrellised, and palm trees, and crops with different tastes, and olives, and pomegranate - fruits that are similar, yet dissimilar. Eat from their fruits, and give the due alms on the day of harvest,* and do not waste anything. He does not love the wasters.
Remarks
NKO
PO The phrase ?Similar, yet dissimilar? simply means that those fruits might have some similarities in shape but are yet different in taste or vice versa
D This is a nonsensible argument because the above mentioned fruits do NOT have ANY VISIBLE similarities but are similar in their internal structure. It is almost impossible that anyone noted such details of these fruits in the past.- Sun has its own light while moon has reflected light
He is the One who rendered the sun radiant / a lamp(DiyA), and the moon a reflecting / borrowing light(noor), and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.
Most blessed is the One who placed constellations in the sky, and placed in it a lamp(siraAj), and a moon reflecting light(muneera).Remarks
O This is a deliberate distortion of the meanings. We even use in languages other than Arabic phrases like ?sun light? and ?moon shine?. This is what is meant by the description of ?siraj? indicating a stronger light than ?noor? which indicates a ?shine? or lesser light in this case.
D Actually the distortion rests with the claimant. Is it a coincidence that GOD always uses either the words ?siraAj, wahaAj or DiyA? meaning ?lamp / something that is the source of light? for the sun while He uses only ?noor and muneer? meaning ?borrowed / reflected light? for the moon? Also notice that in the Arabic ?noor? is always a part of ?DiyA? and not vice versa, making it very clear that the moon reflects while the sun gives off its own light.- Where exactly did the Ark Land?
It was proclaimed "O earth, swallow your water," and "O sky, cease." The water then subsided; the judgment was fulfilled. The ark finally rested on the hills of Judee. It was then proclaimed "The transgressors have perished."
*1140 & 44 This is God's proven truth Noah's ark was made of logs, tied together with primitive ropes (5413). Contrary to common belief, the flood was limited to the area around today's Dead Sea, and the animals were Noah's livestock only; not every animal that lived on earth.
Remarks
O There is no such thing as ark. All these are mere speculations by some researchers who probably found some pieces of an old wooden ship built by primitive tribes supposedly in Ararat.
D Actually there is no comment needed here. However, what an amazing coincidence it is that these pieces of wood were found at the mount of Judee in Ararat but none in the other regions nearby. The pieces of wood also had special symbols on them indicating that it was Noah?s Ark. This is a proven fact and can be found on many websites.- Milk?s origin
And in the livestock there is a lesson for you we provide you with a drink from their bellies. From the midst of digested food and blood, you get pure milk, delicious for the drinkers.
Remarks
NKO
PO This could have been easily noticed by people who regularly milked cattle which was mostly done with camels and goats in Arabia.
D This is a strange argument. The verse says that the milk issues from the midst of digested food and blood which is clearly internal. A thorough scientific investigation would have been necessary to reach such a conclusion which the people didn?t have the equipment for 1400 years ago.- Honey?s healing property
Then eat from all the fruits, following the design of your Lord, precisely. From their bellies comes a drink of different colors, wherein there is healing for the people. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who reflect.*
*1669 Besides its recognized nutritive value, honey has been scientifically proven as a healing medicine of certain allergies and other ailments.
Remarks
NKO
PO People in Arabia could have got to know about the healing property of honey through experience by using it in their daily lives. Honey was easily available in Arabia. Besides, many things or foods have healing in them of some kind or the other so just because honey is mentioned here doesn?t make it an extraordinary claim.
D Another nonsensible objection. If this is the case then why does the Quran ONLY mention honey as having a healing and does not mention any other food? Surely there could have been other, much easier attainable foods in Arabia which would then have found their way into the Quran first. Can this be a coincidence? And honey is indeed the best known natural medicine for healing. The Russian soldiers used it on their wounds which healed them very well and left almost no scar tissue on them.- The Big Bang Theory and the fact that all living things are made from water
Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
He is the One who created from water a human being, then made him reproduce through marriage and mating. Your Lord is Omnipotent.*2130 The Big Bang Theory is now supported by the Creator's infallible mathematical code (Appendix 1). Thus, it is no longer a theory; it is a law, a proven fact.
Remarks
O This verse merely states that the heavens and the earth were joined together and then parted. Where is the ?bang? mentioned in this verse? Besides the ?big bang? refers to the parting of space-time singularity and not mass which was formed much later. At that time there was only energy.
As for every living thing being created from water it is unclear what is meant. The Quran also states that man is made from ?mud, mire, nothing?, sperm, etc?. Besides it would be wrong to say that living things are made from water for water is only a component in them. It should have been ?living things consist / are made of mostly of water?.
D This objection is invalid because in the old Arabic there was no word for ?bang? for people didn?t know what a bang was. So GOD perfectly described this incident in conventional language. The parting of heavens and earth does not necessarily imply matter but clearly refers to the fact that this earth and the universe have the SAME ORIGIN. This is what becomes obvious by studying this verse carefully. Secondly it is now also claimed by a scientist that there might have been NO BANG at all but that there was simply the parting of space and time and that there was great structure / intelligence present at the very beginning of the universe in contrast to chaos. This then would be even closer to the Quran but yet in both cases the Quran is accurate.
The other objection is very weak. How does the claimant know that GOD didn?t use the water to start the creation of the human being ALONG with the use of mud / mire while it is also well known that life started to form in the sea? Besides all chemicals present in man are also present in lesser or greater quantity in the soil so the Quran is absolutely right. Also the use of man being created from nothing in 5235 is obviously allegorical.- Accurate Embryology
We created the human being from a quintessencemud.
Subsequently, we reproduced him from a tiny drop, that is placed into a well protected repository.
Then we developed the drop into a hanging(embryo) / leech like substance, then developed the hanging (embryo) / leech like substance into a bite-size (fetus), then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is GOD, the best Creator.
He created you from one person, then created from him his mate. He sent down to you eight kinds of livestock. He creates you in your mothers' bellies, creation after creation, in trimesters of darkness. Such is GOD your Lord. To Him belongs all sovereignty. There is no other god beside Him. How could you deviate?
He is the One who created you from dust, and subsequently from a tiny drop, then from a hanging embryo / leech like substance, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach maturity, then you become old - some of you die earlier. You attain a predetermined age, that you may understand.Remarks
O This is not beyond what a person could have noticed even 1400 years ago. Besides the Arabic word ? ?alaqat? ? means ?blood clot? which the embryo never looks like. I?ve never heard that this word means ?leech? in any way. Even if it meant so, the embryo only appears to look like a leech from one angle. The cells for flesh are actually created before the bones so this order too is incorrect. It is not difficult to have noticed the trimesters of darkness by simply splitting open the stomach which might have been done. Ancient Greek scientists have been known to have studied the embryo long before the Quran. Muhammad seemed to have plagiarized the same false theories from them.
D Here we see a clear deficiency in the Arabic of the claimant. ? ?alaqat? ? clearly means ?something which clings? and is well known to be used for a leech also by the Arabs. Anyone can confirm this by using either an Arabic dictionary or asking Arabic linguists. Also the ?one angle only? claim is very famous for atheists. This only demonstrates their ignorance. Can the claimant tell us what is the probabilty that one may see from a certain angle a certain definite shape out of one particular irregular shaped object? It is close to zero. Thus, even if one angle of the embryo shows the exact structure / shape of a leech this would be truly amazing. Now notice the fallacy in the above objection. It has been claimed that the cells of the flesh come before the bones. However the QURAN IS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CELLS but the FLESH ITSELF clothing / covering the bones which no doubt happens after the bones are formed. This is a clear distortion of facts. Also the trimesters of darkness cannot be easily noticed as falsely claimed because they are very thin layers and can be easily overlooked. Thus these are facts and not false theories and even if Muhammad would have plagiarized, then what is the chance that he only plagiarized the correct theory out of the thousand theories which were made?- The seven layers of the atmosphere
We created above you seven layers, and we are never unaware of our creation.
Remarks
NKO
PO This has been referred to mean seven heavens in all the translations I?ve seen so far. Seems like the above translation is a deviation from the standard.
D The word in Arabic used above is ?TaraA?iq? meaning ?ways / layers? and not ?samawaat? meaning ?heavens?. Thus it is different and accurate.- Water stored in the ground
We send down from the sky water, in exact measure, then we store it in the ground. Certainly, we can let it escape.
Do you not see that GOD sends down from the sky water, then places it into underground wells, then produces with it plants of various colors, then they grow until they turn yellow, then He turns them into hay? This should be a reminder for those who possess intelligence.Remarks
NKO
PO A farmer through experience could have noticed that the rain water is stored in the ground.
D This is also a nonsensible claim. How should the farmer know that it is the rain water that is stored in the ground? The Quran never makes any other claim as to where rain water is stored. It thus contains only the right information. So even if guesses were made what an amazing coincidence it is that the Quran only mentions the right one.- Internal waves in oceans besides the superficial ones
Another allegory is that of being in total darkness in the midst of a violent ocean, with waves upon waves, in addition to thick fog. Darkness upon darkness - if he looked at his own hand, he could barely see it. Whomever GOD deprives of light, will have no light.
Remarks
NKO
PO This is just a poetic expression and is of no scientific value.
D This is a completely vague remark. Why does GOD make a mention of ?waves upon waves? clearly indicating internal waves and does not just mention waves? Another coincidence?- How clouds form to produce rain
Do you not realize that GOD drives the clouds, then gathers them together, then piles them on each other, then you see the rain coming out of them? He sends down from the sky loads of snow to cover whomever He wills, while diverting it from whomever He wills. The brightness of the snow almost blinds the eyes.
GOD is the One who sends the winds, to stir up clouds, to be spread throughout the sky in accordance with His will. He then piles the clouds up, then you see the rain coming down therefrom. When it falls on whomever He chooses from among His servants, they rejoice.
GOD is the One who sends the winds to stir up clouds, then we drive them towards barren lands, and revive such lands after they were dead. Thus is the resurrection.O This could have been noticed by the farmers who watch the clouds regularly even in ancient Arabia.
D It is not easily observable that the winds are responsible for stirring up the clouds. Besides the first verse here gives many details.- Every living creature created from water
And GOD created every living creature from water. Some of them walk on their bellies, some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. GOD creates whatever He wills. GOD is Omnipotent.
Remark See above
- Sea and salt water meet together but do not mix
He is the One who merges the two seas; one is fresh and palatable, while the other is salty and undrinkable. And He separated them with a formidable, inviolable / invisible barrier.
Remarks
NKO
PO It is possible that someone noticed this phenomenon as this is particularly present in the Gulf Stream near to Arabia.
D This is a very lame objection indeed because of the simple fact that the barrier is invisible and cannot be detected without modern scientific equipment. Besides who would go out on the Gulf Stream where there are storms and take notice that the waters there do meet, yet do not mix in Arabia 1400 years ago. This is one of the most convincing signs in the Quran.- Earth's Movement A Scientific Miracle
When you look at the mountains, you think that they are standing still. But they are moving, like the clouds. Such is the manufacture of GOD, who perfected everything. He is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
Remarks
O This verse has been taken out of context and made to seem scientific. Here the Quran is clearly referring to the day of judgement as can be noticed from the previous and following verses
On the day when the horn is blown, everyone in the heavens and the earth will be horrified, except those chosen by GOD. All will come before Him, forcibly.
And when you look at the mountains, you think that they are standing still. But they are moving, like the clouds. Such is the manufacture of GOD, who perfected everything. He is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
Those who bring good works (in their records) will receive far better rewards, and they will be perfectly secure from the horrors of that day.
Thus a clear connection can be seen from 2787 to 2788. The Quran is merely describing that the people on judgment day will think that the mountains are standing still while they actually aren?t.D This is an absurd objection for at least two reasons. First of all we frequently find in the Quran incidences suddenly appearing in verses and referring to a sign / signs of GOD which do not necessarily belong to the context of the previous verse. Also had the claimant read a few verses more back he would have noticed that this verse is in relation with another context i.e. GOD is talking about signs
Have they not seen that we made the night for their rest, and the day lighted? These should be sufficient proofs / signs for people who believe.
Theme changes
On the day when the horn is blown, everyone in the heavens and the earth will be horrified, except those chosen by GOD. All will come before Him, forcibly.
Original theme continues
And when you look at the mountains, you think that they are standing still. But they are moving, like the clouds. Such is the manufacture of GOD, who perfected everything. He is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
Theme again changes
Those who bring good works (in their records) will receive far better rewards, and they will be perfectly secure from the horrors of that day.
The Quran is well known for such transitional occurrences and this in fact makes it more interesting to read over and over again as compared to any other book.
Secondly on the day of judgment the mountains won?t be standing any more for they would be wiped out and become like fluffy wool as the Quran states
The day will come when the sky will violently thunder.
The mountains will be wiped out.
Do you have any idea what the Shocker is?
That is the day when the people come out like swarms of butterflies.
The mountains will be like fluffy wool.
Thus one would not be seeing the mountains standing still on the day of judgment and hence it is actually the claimant who could not grasp the context of the above verse.- Mountains stabilize the earth
He created the heavens without pillars that you can see. He established on earth stabilizers (mountains) lest it tumbles with you, and He spread on it all kinds of creatures. We send down from the sky water to grow all kinds of beautiful plants.
Remarks
O While it is known that certain mountain ranges may stabilize the earth it is not true that mountains in general do so. Quite on the contrary the folding of the earth due to which mountains are caused is the reason for the quakes. Thus the formation of mountains would rather cause quakes than stopping them.
D Notice the fallacy in this argument. First the claimant makes a confused statement by saying ?While it is known that certain mountain ranges may stabilize the earth?. It is either known or it may be so. We leave it up to the claimant to decide. Secondly we are not talking about the folding whether it causes earthquakes or not. This is another trick like the one which was made by the claimant in the previous ?flesh cells appear before bones? claim. Here the reference is to mountains and NOT their cause, ?folding?. It is an established fact that the mountains act as pegs without which the earth?s rotation would cause the outer crust to continuously shake and make it inhabitable for us to live on.- There are things smaller than the atom
Those who disbelieve have said, "The Hour will never come to pass!" Say, "Absolutely - by my Lord - it will most certainly come to you. He is the Knower of the future. Not even the equivalent of an atom's weight is hidden from Him, be it in the heavens or the earth. Not even smaller than that, or larger (is hidden). All are in a profound record."
Remarks
O The Arabic word ?zarra? means ?a tiny piece? and does not refer to the atom.D False claim. The Arabic word ?zarra? does mean ?atom? and this is well known for even the ancient Greeks knew the atom and thought it to be undivisible. Thus the misconception is cleared in the Quran.
- Sun and moon don?t collide and all sun, moon and earth float in their own orbits
The sun is never to catch up with the moon - the night and the day (Arabic=nahaAr, meaning not 24h day but that part of the day which has light; property of the planet earth) never deviate - each of them is floating in its own orbit.
O The above verse seems to be referring to the false geocentric theory that sun and moon revolve around the earth and that the earth itself is stationary. Nowhere does the above verse indicate the movement of the earth as claimed by some Muslims. The word ?each? clearly refers to the sun and moon only.
D Again this is wrong due to the claimant?s lack of knowledge of the Arabic grammar. Each(?kull~un?) which is plural more than two and NOT ?killaAhummA?, which would be dual plural, must here therefore refer to at least THREE objects. The ?night and the day? is a property of the earth?s rotation and thus is an even better implication of the whole planet earth than the Arabic word ?ArD? which is a word that can be used for ?a piece of land? as well.
The Quran never mentions anywhere that the sun and moon revolve around the earth or that the earth is stationary. Such is only the product of the claimant?s imagination.
Moreover in his haste to disprove this Quranic verse the claimant has forgotten the first sign in the above verse which states that the sun never catches up with the moon.- The Shape of the Earth
He created the heavens and the earth truthfully. He rolls the night over the day, and rolls the day over the night. He committed the sun and the moon, each running for a finite period. Absolutely, He is the Almighty, the Forgiving.
*395 This verse clearly informs us that the earth is round. The Arabic forHe rolls'' (Yukawwir) is derived from the Arabic word forball'' (Kurah). Since the Earth is not exactly round, a specific reference to its shape is given in 7930. The Quran is replete with scientific information that became known to us centuries after the revelation of the Quran.Remarks
NKO
PO This verse simply indicates that Allah is the one who makes the day into the night and vice versa and there is nothing scientific about that.
D I believe the above footnote suffices to understand what is meant in this verse. The claimant?s objection would have carried some weight if GOD would not have used the term ?yukawwir? in the above verse but instead use ?ja?ala? which means ?to make?.- Everyting created in pairs
He is the One who created everything in pairs and He created for you ships and livestock to ride.
We created a pair of everything, that you may take heed.Remarks
O This refers to plants and the living things of which some are asexual i.e. they do not have any sex at all and so the above verses are wrong.
D Where do the above verses mention living things? It says ?kulli shaiyin? meaning ?everything? and NOT every living thing so the claimant?s objection is of no value. This verse indeed refers to all the forces in nature like positive and negative, protons and anti protons, electrons and anti electrons, north pole and south pole in magnets, etc.- Expansion of the Universe
We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it.
Remarks
NKO- The Husband Determines The Baby's Gender
He is the One who created the two kinds, male and female
from a tiny drop / minute quantity of semen.Remarks
NKO
PO This verse could just be saying that mankind who are in male and female are created from sperm which is actually not scientific at all since we are made from a ombination of the sperm and the egg cell.
D Another lame objection by the claimant. We can notice the clear relation from the verses above which talk about the creation of the two kinds i.e. male and female from semen while we know that in other places in the Quran GOD also talks about us being created from ?nutfah(zygote)?. So can this relation here be a coincidence?- Moving apart of heavenly bodies results in the formation of a type of red rose as in the case of the Cat Eye Nebula
When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint.
Remarks
O This verse, unfortunately has nothing to do with any Red Star Nebula. Actually in this verse Muhammad was just trying to scare people with tales of blazing fires and dreadful things. The above verse is another one of the Prophet's scare mongering verses, when sky opens and becomes red (with fire). We all know that Cat's Eye Nebula is a galactic star far away. It is red because it is going away from us. All stars are going away from us because the universe is expanding and therefore they are red. We cannot see it in our plain eyes; we only can see it through the most powerful telescopes.D Here we can clearly see the stupidity on the claimant?s side. First he says that Muhammad only used this to scare people. I wonder why then we find the description of a red rose DUE TO THE VERY DISINTEGRATION OF THE HEAVEN. This very fact is thus indicated clearly in this verse. If the Quran were his work he would have given other examples to scare people, instead he gives an established scientific fact. What an amazing coincidence? The joke is that the claimant even states this fact in his statements above which I?ve underlined. And the very fact that we can?t see this with our plain eyes makes it all the more miraculous for surely a Bedouin Arab could not have noticed it 1400 years ago. The expansion of the universe is also mentioned in the Quran in . GOD Bless!
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Greetings idmkhizar,
I would like to cross-examine a few of your Koranic ?scientific facts??
Let?s review one at a time, and begin with #23?
- Moving apart of heavenly bodies results in the formation of a type of red rose as in the case of the Cat Eye Nebula
When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint.
Remarks
O This verse, unfortunately has nothing to do with any Red Star Nebula. Actually in this verse Muhammad was just trying to scare people with tales of blazing fires and dreadful things. The above verse is another one of the Prophet's scare mongering verses, when sky opens and becomes red (with fire). We all know that Cat's Eye Nebula is a galactic star far away. It is red because it is going away from us. All stars are going away from us because the universe is expanding and therefore they are red. We cannot see it in our plain eyes; we only can see it through the most powerful telescopes.D Here we can clearly see the stupidity on the claimant?s side. First he says that Muhammad only used this to scare people. I wonder why then we find the description of a red rose DUE TO THE VERY DISINTEGRATION OF THE HEAVEN. This very fact is thus indicated clearly in this verse. If the Quran were his work he would have given other examples to scare people, instead he gives an established scientific fact. What an amazing coincidence? The joke is that the claimant even states this fact in his statements above which I?ve underlined. And the very fact that we can?t see this with our plain eyes makes it all the more miraculous for surely a Bedouin Arab could not have noticed it 1400 years ago. The expansion of the universe is also mentioned in the Quran in . GOD Bless!
Why is it that you don?t show the context of your scientific ?proof-text???
The answer is clear, as sura 55 is completely Biblical material?
We are told this from the very start of the sura?.
AAallama alqur-ana
552 He taught/instructed the Koran.
= ?AAallama?
?AAallama? definition
Masculine singular. He taught. An impression, or impress; or a footstep, or track, or trace. Of a garment, or piece of cloth i.e. the ornamental, or figured, or variegated border of borders thereof; the figured or variegated, or embroidered, work or decoration, in the borders thereof. A way-mark; i.e. a thing set up or erected in the way, or, in the deserts or waterless deserts for guidance, for the guidance of those going astray. A separation between two lands; a mountain; a long mountain. A banner or standard, to which the soldiers congregate; the thing i.e. flag , or strip of cloth that is tied upon the spear; the chief of a people or party. A proper name of a person or place. It comes from the root ?alama?, which means to mark, sign, distinguish. He knew it; or he was, or became, acquainted with it; or he knew it truly, or certainly. He knew a thing intuitively and inferentially. He marked it. He, a man, had a fissure in his upper lip; or in one of its two sides. Knowledge.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2138 - 2142
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 383 - 385And?a review of what the Koran is?.
= ?alqur-ana?
?alqur-ana? definition
Originally meaning the Collection; ?I collected together the thing? or ?I read, or recited, the book or scripture?; and then conventionally applied to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Mohammad; it also signifies the revelation, meaning that which is termed the mighty, or imitable which is read, or recited, and written in books or volumes. A name for the Book of God, like the book of the Law revealed to Moses and the Gospel.
is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters.
It comes from the root ?qara?a?, which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion. He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449Thus?it is pretty clear what will be following this introduction?.Biblical material?
In a nutshell, this sura (once again) proclaims the divinity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!!!
The Biblical Book of Revelation was utilized by the authors of the Koran in their construction of this sura?and much of the Koranic concepts of Heaven/Hell/& Jinns, all had their genesis in the Book of Revelation?.!
This sura more or less ?separates? its topics by the following phrase?
Fabi-ayyi ala-i rabbikuma tukaththibani
5513 Then with which (of) your Lord's blessings will you twain deny?
The two (twain) that it is referring to is mankind and the Jinns?
Hence, the ayah in question is also fully loaded with Biblical ?Jinn? material.
It should be pointed-out that the demonic locusts as described in Revelation chapter 9 are the source material for the Koranic concept of ?Jinns??.
Let?s quickly review?
Fa-itha inshaqqati alssamao fakanat wardatan kaalddihani
5537 So if the sky/space split/cut open, so it was a red/a rose as/like the paint/painted with oil.
= ?inshaqqati?
?inshaqqati? definition
Feminine singular. She rent asunder. It comes from the root ?shaqqa?, which means to split, cleave, spread (in the sky), lightning, place under difficulty, impose hard condition. The half of a thing of any kind, or the half of a thing when it is cloven; or split, or divided lengthwise. The counterpart of a person or thing. A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1575 - 1579
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 295 - 296= ?wardatan?
?wardatan? definition
Noun. A bright or yellowish bay color; a color between that of a horse that is red inclining to yellow. Bloom; bud; rose; hide. It comes from the root ?warada?, which means to be present, arrive at (any water to drink), go down into, draw near to (a place). A horse, or other thing, of a red color inkling to yellow, beautiful in everything. Bold or daring; an epithet applied to a man. A lion.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2935 - 2936
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 606 - 607= ?ddihani?
?ddihani? definition
Noun. A red hide; red leather; and shall become red, or of a rose color, or of a red color inkling to yellow, or like the hide that is of a pure red color; and shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror, like diverse oils; slippery; oil. It is also a plural of ?duhnun?, which means oil. Oil with which one anoints It comes from the root ?dahana/dahina?, which means to anoint, strike (with a stick), moisten, blandish, pleasantly smooth, agreeable and suave, dissemble with, coax, be pliant, grease, dis-simulate.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume three, pp. 926 - 927
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 606 - 607Mentioned in this ayah?
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The counterpart of a person? A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being.
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A horse? A bright or yellowish bay color; a color between that of a horse that is red inclining to yellow.
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An epithet applied to a man. A lion.
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A red hide; red leather; and shall become red, or of a rose color, or of a red color inkling to yellow, or like the hide that is of a pure red color; and shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror.
So?.does this sound like something that NASA would confirm??
Not at all?as this sura does not pertain to Astrophysical phenomenon in the least?but does pertain to the Biblical material from whence it borrows itself from?
Take care?
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Greetings idmkhizar,
Moving on to the #21?
- Expansion of the Universe
We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it.
Remarks
NKOI believe that I detailed this Koranic ?proof-text? in the following link?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41506#41506
The bottom line is that Koranic cosmic expansion emanates from the Biblical Book of Isaiah?.which predates the Koran by millennia?
Furthermore?the Holy Bible details cosmic expansion 11x over that of the Koran?
Thanks..
-
Salam,
1st of all i must say tht ur way of twisting the meanings is very annoying n doesnt at all pass the test of Occam's Razor. It is not the simplest understanding of tht verse. The simplrst is tht when the sky bursts assunder it becomes like a RED ROSE. Is it coincidence tht when the heavens move apart it appears red due 2 increase in wavelength n tht the Qurans statement matches this? Definitely not. 2ndly there r many statements in the Bible which r correct n confirmed in the Quran. We all know tht n agree with tht. However the Bible can definitely not be the word of GOD per se or as a whole since there r so many absurdities in it some of which ill just mention here. The Quran thus acts as a filter which tells truth from falsehood. Ive read all the four Gospels in the Bible by myself n made comparisons n found many many inconsistencies within them. Btw none of them claim tht Jesus was GOD neither does the Bible anywhere else. It rather saysJesus proclaimed aloud ``Whoever puts faith in me believes not so
much in me as in him who sent me; ..... For I have not spoken on my
own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life,
whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.''Comment From the above verse we can clearly see tht Jesus had a self conscious of his own but he did not rely on tht but on GOD. Therefore Jesus cant be GOD Himself.
"I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I hear, and my judgment is
honest because I am not seeking my own will but the will of him who
sent me."Comment Again this verse shows tht Jesus had a self conscious of his own n was not GOD Himself but rather a vehicle GOD used or in other words a messenger.
Jesus said ``My doctrine is not my own; it comes from him who sent
me.''"Men of Israel, listen to me! Jesus the Nazorean was a man whom God
sent to you with miracles, wonders, and signs as his credentials.
These God worked through him in your midst, as you well know."``...I have not come of myself. I was sent by One who has the right to
send, and him you do not know. I know him because it is from him I
come; he sent me.''All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Jesus looked upward and said, ``Father, I thank you for having heard
me. I know that you always hear me but I have said this for the sake
of the crowd, that they may believe that you sent me.''Comment Y wld GOD thank Himself? Remember Jesus also prayed 2 GOD in the wilderness according 2 the Bible.
As he was setting out on a journey a man came running up, knelt down
before him and asked,Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?'' Jesus answered,Why do you call me good? No one
is good but God alone.''``...Go to my brothers and tell them, `I am ascending to my Father and
your Father, to my God and your God.' ''``God is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is
the right path."We see in all the above verses tht Jesus aint GOD n the unitarian Christians also came 2 the same conclusion. It was only at the Nicene counsel many hundred years after Jesus tht the doctrine of trinity was formulated. Another important fact id like 2 pt out is tht 1 John 57 is the only verse in the Bible which talked abt THREE in heaven tht bear witness. Now the Quran says in 4171 'wa la taqoolu THALAATHA' i.e. 'Dont say THREE' n amazingly the theologeans unaminously agreed tht 1 John 57 did not exist in the original Biblicl text so THEY REMOVED IT. This is well very well known. So the Quran is so powerful tht it managed 2 forced out a verse from the Bible by its own pp. Coincidence?
Comparing GOD with man in a disgraceful manner
Psalm 7865 (New International Version)
Then the Lord awoke as from sleep, as a man wakes from the stupor of wine.THE REASON BEHIND PAINS OF DELIVERY
God said to Eve when she tempted Adam, "I will greatly multiply your pain
in childbearing, in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall
be for your husband and he shall rule over you.POSTPARTUM IN THE BIBLE
If a woman conceives, and bears a MALE CHILD, then she shall be unclean seven
days.. But if she bears a FEMALE CHILD then she shall be unclean two weeks.AFTER AN INTERCOURSE
If a man has an emission of semen, he shall bathe his whole body in water, and
be unclean until the evening.
Every garment and every skin on which the semen comes shall be washed with
water, and be unclean until the evening.WHEN THE SUN IS DOWN HE SHALL BE CLEAN.
If a man lies with a woman and has an emission of semen both of them shall
bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the evening.WOMAN'S VEIL IN THE BIBLE (not only in Islam)
But any woman who prays and prophecies with her head unveiled dishonours
her head - it is the same as if her head were shaven, for if a woman will
not veil herself then she should cut off her hair. But if it is
disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil.
JUDGE FOR YOURSELVES; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her
head uncovered?
(It seems that Christians are unaware of the obligation
of the veil in the Bible, which made me put their verses in this book,
and for those who attack the veil in Islam should notice these verses of
their own Bible, and notice also this verse "Judge not, that you be not
judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the
measure you give will be the measure you get.)WOMAN IS NOT THE GLORY OF GOD
For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God,
but woman is the glory of man, for man was not made for woman, but woman from
man, neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.WOMAN IS EVIL !
The leaden cover was lifted, there was a woman sitting, and he (the angel)
said this is wickedness.HIDE WOMAN'S VOICE !
The woman should keep silence in the churches, for they are not permitted to
speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is any thing
they desire to know let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful
for a woman to speak in church.Woman should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not
with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds.MARRIAGE BY FORCE !!
If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of
the dead shall not be marries outside of the family to a stranger; her
husband's brother shall go into her, and take her as his wife.WHAT IF HE REFUSES ?
And if the man does not wish to take his brother's wife then his brother's
wife shall go up to the gate of the elders, and say, "My husband's brother
refuses to perpetuate his brother's name in Israel.. Then the elders of his
city shall call him.And if he persists.. Then his brother's wife shall go up to him in the
presence of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot, and spit in his
face; and shall answer and say So it shall be done to the man who does not
build up his brother's house. And the name of his house shall be called in
Israel THE HOUSE OF HIM THAT HAD HIS SANDAL PULLED OFF.DOUBTING THE LAST DAY !
If a man die, shall he live again?
But know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment.(The old
Testament of the Bible does not mention the last day except for one verse.
God threatened not the wicked with fire of Hell, but he takes away their
land every time they disobey him, and gives it back to them when they repent,
as if reward and penalty are in this life only.)THE PHILISTINES IN THE BIBLE
Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took torches; and he turned
them tail to tail, and took a torch between each pair of tails. And when he
had set fire to the torches, he let the foxes go into the standing of the
Philistines and burned up the shocks and the standing grain, as well as the
olive orchards.And he found a jawbone of an ass, and put out his hand and seized it and with
it HE SLEW A THOUSAND MEN.
And Samson said "With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, WITH THE
JAWBONE OF AN ASS HAVE I SLAIN A THOUSAND MEN."200 FORESKINS DAVID'S DOWRY
When David wanted to marry the king Saul's daughter he asked David to bring
to him a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the
king's enemies.David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the
Philistines; and David brought their foreskins which were given in full
number to the king that he might become the king's son-in-law.And Abi-shai lifted up his spear against three hundred Philistines, he slew
them.THE PROMISED LAND FOR THE CHOSEN PEOPLE
The Lord said to Isaac, "To you and to your descendants I will give all these
lands, and I will fulfil the oath which I swore to Abraham your father.God appeared to Jacob... and said to him, "The land which I gave to Abraham and
Isaac I will to you, and I will give the land to your descendants after you."The Lord said to Isaac, "The land on which you lie I will give to you and to
your descendants; and your descendants shall be like the dust of the earth, and
YOU SHALL SPREAD ABROAD TO THE WEST AND TO THE EAST, AND TO THE NORTH, AND TO
THE SOUTH."God said to Abraham, "Lift up your eyes and look from the place were you are,
NORTHWARD AND SOUTHWARD AND EASTWARD AND WESTWARD. FOR ALL THE LAND WHICH YOU
SEE I WILL GIVE TO YOU AND TO YOUR DESCENDANTS FOR EVER.(to both sons)
ARISE, WALK THROUGH THE LENGTH AND BREADTH OF THE LAND, FOR I WILL GIVE IT
TO YOUView the land of Canaan, which I give to the people of Israel for a possession.
RACISM FROM THE BIBLE
THERE IS NO GOD IN ALL THE EARTH, BUT IN ISRAEL.
You are an holy people unto the Lord your God
THE LORD HAD CHOSEN YOU TO BE A SPECIAL PEOPLE UNTO HIMSELF,ABOVE ALL THE
PEOPLE THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.Since you were precious in my sight, you have been honourable, and I have
loved you. Therefore, I WILL GIVE MEN IN EXCHANGE FOR YOU, AND PEOPLE FOR
YOUR LIFE.NOAH ESTABLISHES RACISM
Noah DRANK OF THE WINE, AND BECAME DRUNK, AND LAY UNCOVERED in his tent.
And Ham the father of Canaan saw the NAKEDNESS OF HIS FATHER, and told
his two brothers out-side.
Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it upon both their shoulders,
and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away,
and they did not see their father's nakedness.
When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done
to him, he said, "Cursed be Canaan, a slave of slaves shall he be to his
brothers, blessed be Shem, and let Canaan be his slave."PAUL AND RACISM
Paul said, "We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners."
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave, and by a free
women.
BUT WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY?
"CAST OUT THE SLAVE AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF SLAVE SHALL NOT INHERIT
WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN" SO, BRETHREN WE ARE NOT CHILDREN OF THE
SLAVE BUT OF THE FREE WOMAN."GENTILES IN THE BIBLE !!!
Thus the Lord said, "Behold I will lift up my hand to the gentiles, and
raise up my signal to the people, and they shall bring your sons in their
bosom, and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders.
Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers.
WITH THEIR FACES TO THE GROUND THEY SHALL BOW DOWN TO YOU, AND LICK THE
DUST OF YOUR FEET.Lift up your eyes round about, and see, they all gather together, they come
to you.
THE WEALTH OF THE NATIONS(in K.J.version gentiles) SHALL COME UNTO YOU
and the sons of the foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings
shall minister unto you...MEN MAY BRING UNTO YOU THE WEALTH OF THE NATIONS
(in K.J. version Gentiles) WITH THEIR KINGS LED IN YOUR POSSESSION.
For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those
nations shall be utterly laid waste.
YOU SHALL SUCK THE MILK OF THE NATIONS(in K.J. version Gentiles), YOU
SHALL SUCK THE BREAST OF KINGS.And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien
shall be your plowmen and your vinedresses.
BUT YOU SHALL BE NAMED THE PRIESTS OF THE LORD. Men shall call you the
ministers of God.
YOU SHALL EAT THE RICHES OF THE NATIONS(in K.J.version Gentiles) AND IN
THEIR GLORY SHALL YOU BOAST YOURSELVES.TAKE USURY FROM THE GENTILES ONLY !!
"Do not charge your brother interest, you may charge a foreigner interest, but
not a brother Israelite." (The word Israelite according to the Good News Bible)Every creditor shall release what he has lent to his neighbour. He shall not
exact it of his neighbour, his brother.
Of a foreigner you may exact it. But whatever of yours is with your brother,
your hand shall release.WHO ARE THE DOGS AND PIGS ?
Jesus said to her who sought his help, "It is not meet to take the children's
bread, and to cast it unto the dogs."He also said, "Do not give that which is holy to the dogs, neither cast your
pearls to the pigs."ONLY 144,000 ZIONISTS REDEEMED AND TAKEN TO HEAVEN
On mount Zion stood the lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who
had his name and his father's name written on their foreheads.. They sing a new
song before the throne.. no one could learn that song except the hundred and
forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.
It is those who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste. It
is these who follow the lamb wherever he goes; These have been redeemed from
mankind as first fruits of God and the Lamb." (This phrase contradicts the
concept of redemption of Jesus to all mankind. And deprives some prophets from
joining these 144,000 Zionists, like David, Lot, Judah, whom the Bible referred
to them cases of adultery with their own daughters, daughters-in-law, and their
neighbours as mentioned at the beginning of this booklet.)KILL WOMEN, CHILDREN, ANIMALS !!
And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite let not your eye spare,
neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE
CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They
warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay
all the males.
And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil
of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt
all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE?
NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN
that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not
known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.Joshua said to the people of Israel, "The Lord has given you the city (of the
Canaanites).. all silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are c
consecrated unto the Lord They shall come into the treasury of the Lord.
The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN,
YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD.KILLING, KIDNAPPING, SLAVERY
So the Canaanites have dwelt in the midst of E'phraim to this day, but become
slaves to do forced labour. (see also Joshua 1713 and Judg. 130)The congregation of Benjamin sent twelve thousand of their bravest men, and
commanded them, "Go and smite the inhabitants of Ja'-besh-gil'ead with the
edge of the sword; also the women and the little ones. Every male and every
woman that has lain with a male YOU SHALL UTTERLY DESTROY.And they found among the inhabitants four hundred YOUNG VIRGINS who had not
known a man by lying with him; and they brought them to the camp of Shiloh,
which is the land of Canaan. And Benjamin returned at that time, and they
gave them the women whom they had saved alive of the women of
Ja'besh-gil'ead, but they did not suffice for them.STEALING WOMEN !!
And they commanded the Benjaminites, saying"Go and lie in wait in the
vineyard, and watch, if the daughters of Shiloh go out to dance in the
dances, then come out of the vineyard and seize each man his wife from
the daughters of Shiloh. And the Benjaminites did so, and took their
wives from the dancers whom they caught.KILL THEM AND TAKE THEIR PROPERTIES
When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it.
And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all the people who
are found in it SHALL BE FORCED LABOUR FOR YOU AND SHALL SERVE YOU.But if it makes no peace with you, then you shall besiege it, .. YOU SHALL PUT
ALL ITS MALES TO THE SWORD, BUT THE WOMEN AND THE LITTLE ONES, the cattle and
every thing else in the city all its spoil, YOU SHALL TAKE AS BOOTY FOR
YOURSELVES; AND YOU SHALL ENJOY THE SPOIL OF YOUR ENEMIES.REVENGE, SWORD, FIRE !!
OUR GOD IS DESTROYING FIRE.
O LORD, YOU GOD OF VENGEANCE.
Why do not you pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity?
God said, "You have feared the sword, the sword I will bring
upon you."
I will slay that left of them with the sword, not one of them
shall flee away.. I WILL COMMAND THE SWORD, AND IT SHALL SLAY
THEM.
I will send the sword after them, until I have consumed them.
(Let those who say Islam is the religion of the sword know that
the word "sword" is never mentioned in the Quran while the
Bible mentions it many times, in the way that you see here.)
I will unsheathe the sword after them. I will let a few of them
escape from the sword, from famine and pestilence.THE BIBLE MISREPRESENTS GOD'S MERCY
The Lord said, "T WILL MAKE THEM EAT THE FLESH OF THEIR SONS AND THEIR
DAUGHTERS, and every one shall eat the flesh of his neighbour.If you will not hearken to me..21 I will bring a sword upon you.. 29 YOU SHALL
EAT THE FLESH OF YOUR SONS, AND DAUGHTERS.LOOK O LORD, AND SEE! WITH WHOM YOU HAVE DONE THAT SHOULD WOMEN EAT THEIR
FRUIT AND CHILDREN OF A SPAN LONG?The hands of compassionate women have boiled their own childrenthey became
their food.SWORD AND FIRE IN NEW TESTAMENT
"Do not think that I have come to make peace on earth? I HAVE NOT COME TO BRING
PEACE, BUT A SWORD.
"For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her
mother."!'I CAME TO CAST FIRE UPON THE EARTH, AND WOULD THAT IT WERE ALREADY KINDLED..
DO YOU THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO GIVE PEACE ON EARTH? NO, I TELL YOU, BUT
RATHER DIVISION; for from henceforth in one house there will be five divided,
three against two, and two against three. They will be divided, father against
son, and son against father, mother against daughter, and daughter against her
mother. !For these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, BRING THEM
HERE AND SLAY THEM BEFORE ME.If any one comes to me and does not HATE his own father and mother and wife,
and children, and brothers and sisters yes and even his own life he cannot be
my disciple.JESUS WITH HIS DISCIPLES
Jesus said to Peter, "O man of little faith, why did you doubt?"
He also said, "GET BEHIND ME SATAN! You are a hindrance to me, for you are not
on the side of God, but of them."JESUS WITH HIS MOTHER
He said to Mary, "Woman, what have I to do with you." (I only quote here what
I believe not because I believe that Jesus the great prophet of God was more
polite and kind to his mother than what the Bible shows.)Then one said unto Jesus, "Behold, your mother and brethren stand without,
desiring to talk to you" but he answered and said, "WHO IS MY MOTHER? AND
WHO ARE MY BRETHREN?"GOD'S ATTRIBUTES IN THE BIBLE
JACOB WRESTLES WITH GOD (This title is taken from the New International
----------------------- Version of the Bible)Jacob wrestled God who said to him, "Let me go; for the day is breaking" But
Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me. And he said to him,
"What is your name? And he said "Jacob" Then the Lord said, "Your name shall
be no more called Jacob but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men,
and have prevailed. Then Jacob asked him, "Tell me, I pray your name. But he
said, "Why is it that you ask my name?"And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place "Pen'el"
saying For I have seen God face to face."DOES ALLAH NEED TO REFRESH ?!
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
DOES HE REGRET ?!
And the Lord was sorry that he made man on the earth, and it grieved him to
his heart.
"For I am sorry that I have made them."DOES HE ABUSE HIMSELF ?!
For thus says the Lord, Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous.
DOES HE ORDER HIS PEOPLE TO STEAL ?!
God ordered the people of Israel to BORROW FROM THE EGYPTIANS THEIR JEWELS
AND THEN TO GET AWAY WITH THEM WHEN LEAVING EGYPT WITH MOSES. (See in details
Exodus 322 & 111 & 1235)DOES HE CLAP ?!
I will strike my hands together.
Therefore I smite my hand. (in K.J.V. Smite)THE DENIAL OF HIS MERCY AND JUSTICE
O Lord of hosts, how long WILL YOU NOT HAVE MERCY ON JERUSALEM.
HOW LONG WILL YOU JUDGE UNJUSTLY ?!!
He
God has overthrown me, and has compassed me with his net. Behold, I cry out
of wrong, but I am not heard, I cry loud, but THERE IS NO JUDGMENT.
He has fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he has set darkness in
my paths.MOTHERS EAT THEIR CHILDREN !!
Look O Lord, why are you punishing us like this ? Women are eating the bodies
of their children they loved.MY HOPE IN THE LORD IS GONE.(According to the Good News Bible known as To Day
English's Language.)
42 We have sinned and rebelled, and you O Lord have not forgiven us. You
pursued us and killed, YOUR MERCY WAS HIDDEN BY YOUR ANGER. SLAYING WITHOUT
PITY, YOU HAVE WRAPPED YOURSELF WITH A CLOUD SO THAT NO PRAYER CAN PASS
THROUGH.The tongue of the nursling cleaves to the roof of its mouth for thirst, the
children beg for food.
8 Their visage is blacker than soot.. Their skin has shrivelled upon their
bones.
The HANDS OF THE COMPASSIONATE WOMEN HAVE BOILED THEIR OWN CHILDREN. THEY
BECAME THEIR FOOD in the destruction of the daughter of my people. The Lord
gave full vent to his wrath, and poured out his hot anger, and he kindled a
fire in Zion.DAVID PRETENDS FOOLISHNESS
And David was much afraid of A'chish the king of Gash, so he changed his
behaviour before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, AND SCRABBLED
ON THE DOORS OF THE GATE, AND LET HIS SPITTLE FALL DOWN UPON HIS BEARD.AND DANCES NAKED BEFORE GOD
And David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord of all manner of
instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and
on timbrels..
14 And David DANCED BEFORE THE LORD with all his might. So David and all the
house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting, and with the
sound of the trumpet.
When Mi'-chal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David
leaping and dancing before the Lord she DESPISED HIM in her heart.. And said,
"How glorious was the king of Israel today WHO UNCOVERED HIMSELF today in the
eyes of the hand maid of his servant, as one of the vain fellows SHAMELESSLY
UNCOVERS HIMSELF ?!!!
David said it was before the Lord, which chose me before your father...
Therefore will I play before the Lord.HYPOCRISY !!
With the pure you show yourself pure, and with the crooked you show
yourself perverse. -
Greetings idmkhizar,
Thanks for your comments?
Salam,
1st of all i must say tht ur way of twisting the meanings is very annoying n doesnt at all pass the test of Occam's Razor. It is not the simplest understanding of tht verse. The simplrst is tht when the sky bursts assunder it becomes like a RED ROSE. Is it coincidence tht when the heavens move apart it appears red due 2 increase in wavelength n tht the Qurans statement matches this? Definitely not.If you are into ?Occams razor? then the simplest and most direct meanings are the ones from the classical Arabic?
Not from what you can ?google? from Modern Muslim propaganda sites?
Furthermore....it appears that you are one of those individuals that can only ?google? your answers?.
2ndly there r many statements in the Bible which r correct n confirmed in the Quran. We all know tht n agree with tht. However the Bible can definitely not be the word of GOD per se or as a whole since there r so many absurdities in it some of which ill just mention here. The Quran thus acts as a filter which tells truth from falsehood. Ive read all the four Gospels in the Bible by myself n made comparisons n found many many inconsistencies within them. Btw none of them claim tht Jesus was GOD neither does the Bible anywhere else. It rather says
Have you forgotten that this thread (that you yourself started) is regarding the ?supposed? Koranic science?.?
You should be more concerned about how the Holy Bible totally crushes the likes of the copy-cat Koran, rather than trying to change the subject material in your very own thread? roll
Thanks?
-
If you are into ?Occams razor? then the simplest and most direct meanings are the ones from the classical Arabic?
Not from what you can ?google? from Modern Muslim propaganda sites?
Furthermore....it appears that you are one of those individuals that can only ?google? your answers?.
Khi- The word 'warda' in tht verse literally means 'rose'. I believe we even have an ID on this forum named 'warda' whose avator is a rose. Go n check tht out.
Have you forgotten that this thread (that you yourself started) is regarding the ?supposed? Koranic science?.?
You should be more concerned about how the Holy Bible totally crushes the likes of the copy-cat Koran, rather than trying to change the subject material in your very own thread? roll
Thanks?
Khi- Oh really? If the Quran copied from the Bible how come we don't find the illogical statements from the Bible in it but only the plausible n sensible. For example GOD talks abt the SIX days of creation in Quran but DOES NOT MENTION THE SEVENTH DAY ON WHICH GOD ALLEGEDLY RESTED according 2 the Bible. Besides Muhammad was a gentile. He did not know the scripture. The amazing thing is exactly tht while the Quran confirms on onr hand the somewht left truth in the Bible it also leaves out all the absurdities which r 2 be found in it. If the Quran were really copied from the Bible then this important 7th day wld never have been left out. Also there r many things in Quran which r NOT at all in the Bible. For example i compared the story of Joseph(son of Jacob) in the OT Bible with the Quran's account. I found similarities yes but surprisingly the account where the women CUT their hands when they saw him is not mentioned in the Bible but in Quran which amazingly led 2 the understanding of another verse in the Quran which says to cut the thieves hand not completely but 2 mark it
The thief, male or female, you shall MARK their hands* as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
*538 The practice of cutting off the thief's hand, as decreed by the false Muslims, is a satanic practice without Quranic basis. Due to the special importance of this example, God has provided mathematical proof in support of marking the hand of the thief, rather than severing it. Verse 1231 refers to the women who so admired Joseph that they
cut'' their hands. When she heard of their gossip, she invited them, prepared for them a comfortable place, and gave each of them a knife. She then said to him, "Enter their room." When they saw him, they so admired him, that they CUT their hands. They said, "Glory be to GOD, this is not a human being; this is an honorable angel." Obviously, they did notcut off'' their hands; nobody can. The sum of sura and verse numbers are the same for 538 and 1231, i.e., 43. It is also the will and mercy of God that this mathematical relationship conforms with the Quran's 19-based code. Nineteen verses after 1231, we see the same word (1250).Another example from the same story in the Quran is the part where the quest 4 the truth abt who is truthful Joseph or the wife of Pharaoh is mentioned. This logical account again is NOT 2 be found in the Bible
He said, "She is the one who tried to seduce me." A witness from her family suggested "If his garment is torn from the front, then she is telling the truth and he is a liar.
"And if his garment is torn from the back, then she lied, and he is telling the truth."
Can all this be coincidence? Last but not least the whole account of Joseph in the Quran gives us a spiritual lesson which does not focus much on names n races unlike the same account given in the Bible which i, honestly saying, did not enjoy by any means, neither cld i derive any spiritual or moral benefit. I hope u got my pt. GOD Bless! -
Greetings idmkhizar,
Thanks for your reply?
Quote
If you are into ?Occams razor? then the simplest and most direct meanings are the ones from the classical Arabic?
Not from what you can ?google? from Modern Muslim propaganda sites?
Furthermore....it appears that you are one of those individuals that can only ?google? your answers?.
Khi- The word 'warda' in tht verse literally means 'rose'. I believe we even have an ID on this forum named 'warda' whose avator is a rose. Go n check tht out.
Let me repeat the classical definition, once again for you?
= ?wardatan?
?wardatan? definition
Noun. A bright or yellowish bay color; a color between that of a horse that is red inclining to yellow. Bloom; bud; rose; hide. It comes from the root ?warada?, which means to be present, arrive at (any water to drink), go down into, draw near to (a place). A horse, or other thing, of a red color inkling to yellow, beautiful in everything. Bold or daring; an epithet applied to a man. A lion.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2935 - 2936
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 606 - 607Let?s go with your shoe-horning of ?rose??..please tell us how this fits into the context of the ayah (or sura for that matter)?.when it is surrounded by descriptives of Jinn and great terror?
Quote
Have you forgotten that this thread (that you yourself started) is regarding the ?supposed? Koranic science?.?
You should be more concerned about how the Holy Bible totally crushes the likes of the copy-cat Koran, rather than trying to change the subject material in your very own thread?
Thanks?
Khi- Oh really? If the Quran copied from the Bible how come we don't find the illogical statements from the Bible in it but only the plausible n sensible. For example GOD talks abt the SIX days of creation in Quran but DOES NOT MENTION THE SEVENTH DAY ON WHICH GOD ALLEGEDLY RESTED according 2 the Bible.
I already started a thread comparing the 6-day creation sequence of the holy Bible to that of the Koran?.if you think that you have something to contribute, then make yourself at home?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41607#41607
Besides Muhammad was a gentile. He did not know the scripture.
According to you, and by definition, then he was an ignoramus?.
The amazing thing is exactly tht while the Quran confirms on onr hand the somewht left truth in the Bible it also leaves out all the absurdities which r 2 be found in it. If the Quran were really copied from the Bible then this important 7th day wld never have been left out.
The Koran can only copy from its source material.
This is made very clear by the authors who penned the text.
Also there r many things in Quran which r NOT at all in the Bible. For example i compared the story of Joseph(son of Jacob) in the OT Bible with the Quran's account. I found similarities yes but surprisingly the account where the women CUT their hands when they saw him is not mentioned in the Bible but in Quran which amazingly led 2 the understanding of another verse in the Quran which says to cut the thieves hand not completely but 2 mark it
The thief, male or female, you shall MARK their hands* as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
*538 The practice of cutting off the thief's hand, as decreed by the false Muslims, is a satanic practice without Quranic basis. Due to the special importance of this example, God has provided mathematical proof in support of marking the hand of the thief, rather than severing it. Verse 1231 refers to the women who so admired Joseph that they
cut'' their hands. When she heard of their gossip, she invited them, prepared for them a comfortable place, and gave each of them a knife. She then said to him, "Enter their room." When they saw him, they so admired him, that they CUT their hands. They said, "Glory be to GOD, this is not a human being; this is an honorable angel." Obviously, they did notcut off'' their hands; nobody can. The sum of sura and verse numbers are the same for 538 and 1231, i.e., 43. It is also the will and mercy of God that this mathematical relationship conforms with the Quran's 19-based code. Nineteen verses after 1231, we see the same word (1250).Another example from the same story in the Quran is the part where the quest 4 the truth abt who is truthful Joseph or the wife of Pharaoh is mentioned. This logical account again is NOT 2 be found in the Bible
He said, "She is the one who tried to seduce me." A witness from her family suggested "If his garment is torn from the front, then she is telling the truth and he is a liar.
"And if his garment is torn from the back, then she lied, and he is telling the truth."
Can all this be coincidence? Last but not least the whole account of Joseph in the Quran gives us a spiritual lesson which does not focus much on names n races unlike the same account given in the Bible which i, honestly saying, did not enjoy by any means, neither cld i derive any spiritual or moral benefit. I hope u got my pt. GOD Bless!Looks like we have a ?code 19? phreak on our hands?
The question is; why (if code 19 is so wonderful in the eyes of Mussulmans), does the core of the whole code 19 ?phenomenon? refer to Jesus and His Holiness?
Let?s take a closer look at what the ?code 19? reveals to us?.in the holy-grail of code 19??..19.19
19.19
Qala innama ana rasoolu rabbiki li-ahaba laki ghulaman zakiyyan
= ?zakiyyan?
?zakiyyan? definition
Masculine singular. Most pure. It comes from the root ?zaka?, which means it increased, or augmented; it received increase and blessing from God; it throve by the blessing of God; and produced fruit. It was or became pure. To grow, be pure and clean, purify, be righteous, thrive, prosper, succeed, grow strong, improve.
?...(a boy) pure from sins; or growing, or increasing, in goodness and righteousness; or purified by nature; or such as shall in the future be purified.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume three, pp. 1240 - 1241
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 233
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 62So?already we know that the heart of code 19.19 refers to Jesus? being acknowledged as being Holy and free from sin.
But?..to further accentuate the conundrum in which this places Mussulmans; let?s observe ALL the other places in the Koran in which the root and derivatives are utilized?
The root with its 13 derivatives is used 57x in the Koran
2.43, 2.83, 2.110, 2.129, 2.151, 2.177, 2.232, 2.277, 3.164, 4.49 (2x), 4.77, 4.162, 5.12, 5.55, 7.156, 9.5, 9.11, 9.18, 9.71, 9.103, 18.19, 18.74, 18.81, 19.13, 19.19, 19.31, 19.55, 20.76, 21.73, 22.41, 22.78, 23.4, 24.21 (2x), 24.28, 24.30, 24.37, 24.56, 27.3, 30.39, 31.4, 33.33, 35.18 (2x), 41.7, 53.32, 58.13, 62.2, 73.20, 79.18, 80.3, 80.7, 87.14, 91.9, 92.18, 98.5
Reading the context of these ayahs demonstrates the overwhelming usage of worshiping, and sanctification involves whenever the root derivatives of ?zakiyyan? are used through out the entire Koran.
Thus?.it is beyond any reasonable doubt that not only is code 19 showing us the truth behind the matter, but also it is proclaiming loudly and proudly that Jesus is sinless, pure, to be worshiped and sanctified?in short, this is yet another Koranic confirmation that Jesus is indeed God Almighty.
I am so glad that you brought this to our attention?
Now?how about defending your obvious Koranic science blunders?.?
You remember?.the theme of your thread?.
Take care?
-
Let me repeat the classical definition, once again for you?
= ?wardatan?
?wardatan? definition
Noun. A bright or yellowish bay color; a color between that of a horse that is red inclining to yellow. Bloom; bud; rose; hide. It comes from the root ?warada?, which means to be present, arrive at (any water to drink), go down into, draw near to (a place). A horse, or other thing, of a red color inkling to yellow, beautiful in everything. Bold or daring; an epithet applied to a man. A lion.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2935 - 2936
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 606 - 607Let?s go with your shoe-horning of ?rose??..please tell us how this fits into the context of the ayah (or sura for that matter)?.when it is surrounded by descriptives of Jinn and great terror?
Khi- Sura 55 does not have any particular context but talks abt the different kinds of favors which GOD has shown or given us. The disintegration of the sky 2 look rosy is one of them
When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint.
Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?I already started a thread comparing the 6-day creation sequence of the holy Bible to that of the Koran?.if you think that you have something to contribute, then make yourself at home?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41607#41607
Khi- I skimmed through the post. I see tht Andya is already answering u there. I cant drop in everywhere. However my pt stands. The Quran does not mention the 7th day where GOD, allegedly, rested.
According to you, and by definition, then he was an ignoramus?.
Khi-
You did not read the previous scriptures, nor did you write them with your hand. In that case, the rejectors would have had reason to harbor doubts.The Koran can only copy from its source material.
This is made very clear by the authors who penned the text.
Khi- OIh really. The style of the Quran is very different from tht of the Bible. As i said ive read the four gospels of the NT Bible n did not find them in any way near 2 the Quran's style. Same goes 4 the story of Joseph. As i said if the Quran is a copy then where's the 7th day?
Looks like we have a ?code 19? phreak on our hands?
Khi- Yes i believe in code-19 miracle. But even with code-19 we can see the relationship. Tht was just an addtional support. The other verse i pted out had no such relationship.
The question is; why (if code 19 is so wonderful in the eyes of Mussulmans), does the core of the whole code 19 ?phenomenon? refer to Jesus and His Holiness?
Khi- Where does the core of this code refer 2 Jesus n his holiness?
Let?s take a closer look at what the ?code 19? reveals to us?.in the holy-grail of code 19??..19.19
19.19
Qala innama ana rasoolu rabbiki li-ahaba laki ghulaman zakiyyan
= ?zakiyyan?
?zakiyyan? definition
Masculine singular. Most pure. It comes from the root ?zaka?, which means it increased, or augmented; it received increase and blessing from God; it throve by the blessing of God; and produced fruit. It was or became pure. To grow, be pure and clean, purify, be righteous, thrive, prosper, succeed, grow strong, improve.
?...(a boy) pure from sins; or growing, or increasing, in goodness and righteousness; or purified by nature; or such as shall in the future be purified.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume three, pp. 1240 - 1241
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 233
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 62So?already we know that the heart of code 19.19 refers to Jesus? being acknowledged as being Holy and free from sin.
Khi- Yes indeed the birth of Jesus was one of the greatest miracles. Therefore it is indicated in the Quran in 19.19. This then wld further give even more credibility 2 the Quran wldnt it?
But?..to further accentuate the conundrum in which this places Mussulmans; let?s observe ALL the other places in the Koran in which the root and derivatives are utilized?
The root with its 13 derivatives is used 57x in the Koran
2.43, 2.83, 2.110, 2.129, 2.151, 2.177, 2.232, 2.277, 3.164, 4.49 (2x), 4.77, 4.162, 5.12, 5.55, 7.156, 9.5, 9.11, 9.18, 9.71, 9.103, 18.19, 18.74, 18.81, 19.13, 19.19, 19.31, 19.55, 20.76, 21.73, 22.41, 22.78, 23.4, 24.21 (2x), 24.28, 24.30, 24.37, 24.56, 27.3, 30.39, 31.4, 33.33, 35.18 (2x), 41.7, 53.32, 58.13, 62.2, 73.20, 79.18, 80.3, 80.7, 87.14, 91.9, 92.18, 98.5
Reading the context of these ayahs demonstrates the overwhelming usage of worshiping, and sanctification involves whenever the root derivatives of ?zakiyyan? are used through out the entire Koran.
Thus?.it is beyond any reasonable doubt that not only is code 19 showing us the truth behind the matter, but also it is proclaiming loudly and proudly that Jesus is sinless, pure, to be worshiped and sanctified?in short, this is yet another Koranic confirmation that Jesus is indeed God Almighty.
Khi- NO this is entirely wrong. Neither the Quran NOR the four gospels in the Bible say tht Jesus is God. On the contrary the Quran condemns those who call his God
The Messiah would never disdain from being a servant of GOD, nor would the closest angels. Those who disdain from worshiping Him, and are too arrogant to submit, He will summon them all before Him.
Indeed even in the four gospels we find Jesus praying 2 GOD Alone. It doesnt make sense tht God pray 2 Himself.
Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, the son of Mary. Say, "Who could oppose GOD if He willed to annihilate the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother, and everyone on earth?" To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them. He creates whatever He wills. GOD is Omnipotent.
Again we see tht GOD condems thjose who say tht Jesus is GOD so ur twisting the meaning of a word 2 suit ur purpose is not correct. u have 2 look at the Quran as a whole. U fall in the category of 37
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
This is exactly wht u r doing i.e. creating confusion n the Quran says tht.I am so glad that you brought this to our attention?
Now?how about defending your obvious Koranic science blunders?.?
You remember?.the theme of your thread?.
Take care?
Khi- No prob i already did. U addressed only two pts n i answered them. If u wanna address the others ur most welcome. GOD Bless!
-
Greetings idmkhizar,
Thanks for your comments?
Khi- Sura 55 does not have any particular context but talks abt the different kinds of favors which GOD has shown or given us. The disintegration of the sky 2 look rosy is one of them
When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint.
Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?We already covered this ground once before.
Sura 55 is entirely Biblical material that has been repacked for Islamic consumption?
Let?s review the distinguishing going on here?
Fabi-ayyi ala-i rabbikuma tukaththibani
5513 Then with which (of) your Lord's blessings will you twain deny?
The two (twain) that it is referring to is mankind and the Jinns?
Hence, the ayah in question is also fully loaded with Biblical ?Jinn? material.
It should be pointed-out that the demonic locusts as described in Revelation chapter 9 are the source material for the Koranic concept of ?Jinns??.
Please tell us exactly how Jinns would fall under the ?science? category?.?
Quote
I already started a thread comparing the 6-day creation sequence of the holy Bible to that of the Koran?.if you think that you have something to contribute, then make yourself at home?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41607#41607
Khi- I skimmed through the post. I see tht Andya is already answering u there. I cant drop in everywhere.
Your silence tells us all we need to know?
However my pt stands. The Quran does not mention the 7th day where GOD, allegedly, rested.
Please bring forth the word translated as ?rested??
Quote
The Koran can only copy from its source material.
This is made very clear by the authors who penned the text.
Khi- OIh really. The style of the Quran is very different from tht of the Bible.
That is because it is second-hand information?
As i said ive read the four gospels of the NT Bible n did not find them in any way near 2 the Quran's style. Same goes 4 the story of Joseph.
Perhaps you need to re-read the Book of Luke, as vast quantities of it were used by the authors of the Koran?
As i said if the Quran is a copy then where's the 7th day?
Why not join us and tell us??
Quote
Looks like we have a ?code 19? phreak on our hands?
Khi- Yes i believe in code-19 miracle. But even with code-19 we can see the relationship. Tht was just an addtional support. The other verse i pted out had no such relationship.
Thanks for acknowledging that the Holiness of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is acknowledged in 19.19!
Quote
The question is; why (if code 19 is so wonderful in the eyes of Mussulmans), does the core of the whole code 19 ?phenomenon? refer to Jesus and His Holiness?
Khi- Where does the core of this code refer 2 Jesus n his holiness?
19.19
Khi- Yes indeed the birth of Jesus was one of the greatest miracles. Therefore it is indicated in the Quran in 19.19. This then wld further give even more credibility 2 the Quran wldnt it?
Again?Thanks for acknowledging that the Holiness of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is acknowledged in 19.19!
Khi- NO this is entirely wrong. Neither the Quran NOR the four gospels in the Bible say tht Jesus is God.
Wrong.
They both proclaim that Jesus is God Almighty?
However?need I remind you that this is a ?Koranic science? thread that you yourself started?.why is it that you insist on inserting redd herrings when you begin to see how hopeless your position is?.?
I smell insecurity?
Quote
I am so glad that you brought this to our attention?
Now?how about defending your obvious Koranic science blunders?.?
You remember?.the theme of your thread?.
Take care?
Khi- No prob i already did. U addressed only two pts n i answered them. If u wanna address the others ur most welcome. GOD Bless!
Actually, you stated absolutely NOTHING regarding my rebuttal to #21?the expansion of the Universe?
Your silence speaks volumes.
Additionally, your replies to sura 55 leave much to be desired?..as you know little to nothing about the classic Arabic of your book of faith?
Thanks?
-
We already covered this ground once before.
Sura 55 is entirely Biblical material that has been repacked for Islamic consumption?
Let?s review the distinguishing going on here?
Fabi-ayyi ala-i rabbikuma tukaththibani
5513 Then with which (of) your Lord's blessings will you twain deny?
The two (twain) that it is referring to is mankind and the Jinns?
Hence, the ayah in question is also fully loaded with Biblical ?Jinn? material.
Khi- Yes the verse does refer 2 both Jinn n man. So wht if the Bible also talks abt Jinn? The Quran is a confirmation of the previous scriptures as i probably stated be4. N moreover how does this refernce negate the fact of the scientific in tht verse?
It should be pointed-out that the demonic locusts as described in Revelation chapter 9 are the source material for the Koranic concept of ?Jinns??.
Please tell us exactly how Jinns would fall under the ?science? category?.?
Khi- Tht is a spearete issue. Just coz Jinn havent been discovered by science yet it doesnt mean they dont exist. The verse above refers 2 BOTH humans n jinn the former of which is known. Btw the "demonic" locusts as u call them have nothing 2 do with Jinn. Jinn can also be interpreted 2 mean a certain type of reptile from the Quran. Plz read
He then threw his staff, whereupon it became a profound SNAKE.
"Throw down your staff." When he saw it moving like a JAAN(from jinn), he turned around and fled. "O Moses, do not be afraid. My messengers shall not fear.
By taking both verses 2gether we may infer tht Jinn r some kind of reptiles. However this is another topic altogether n has got nothing 2 do with the clear sign as mentioned in the above verse.Your silence tells us all we need to know?
Khi- I told u i cant drop in everywhere. Im addressing all ur pts though.
Please bring forth the word translated as ?rested??
Khi- If according 2 u tht word has any other menaing ur welcome 2 show it. However in all Bibles ive seen the 7th day was always the day of rest.
Yet im ready 2 rethink on tht if u say tht the word in Hebrew has a different meaning.That is because it is second-hand information?
Khi- The style of the Quran is much better according 2 wht ive read. But u know wht let the ppl decide 4 themselves. Let them read both Bible n Quran, whichever they like 1st. N then well see which one theyll choose. N then again if the Quran copied y didnt it copy the 7th day part in the Bible? Y didnt it copy the part where GOD allegedly repented in the Bible 4 having made man? Does GOD need 2 repent??! Nobody wld like 2 worsip a god who repents 4 doing something. GOD the almighty has already calculated the outcome of everything n He knows wht 2 do. It makes absolutely no sense 2 repent. So again the Quran does not seem 2 copy.
Perhaps you need to re-read the Book of Luke, as vast quantities of it were used by the authors of the Koran?
Khi- Again i must say so wht? THE QURAN IS AFTER ALL A CONFORMATION OF THE PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES. IT REITERATES THE LOGICAL N SENSIBLE PARTS N LEAVES OUT THE ABSURD N USELESS. Tht again wld make it no less than miraculous.
Why not join us and tell us??
Khi- Wht shld i tell u? I asked the qs. U tell us plz. Y doesnt the Quran mention the 7th day. I believe It obviously didnt coz it didnt plagiarize but confirmed only the right part of the Bible, or better the previous scriptures which were indeed once sent by GOD. Though i must say at this pt tht NOT ALL the books in the Bible r divinely inspired. Many Christian theologians seriously doubt the book of revelation for example. 1 John 57 which is the only verse which clearly mentions tht there r three in heaven tht bear witness has been shown 2 be a fabrication with no trace back 2 the original by Christian theologians, NOT by Muslims. N also many other discrepancies.
Thanks for acknowledging that the Holiness of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is acknowledged in 19.19!
Khi- Just coz the Quran says Jesus was Holy tht doesnt mean tht we r 2 worship him or tht hes our saviour. Our saviour is GOD, NOT Jesus. There r two words 4 lord both in Arabic n Hebrew. In Arabic 'rabb' n 'sayid'. The latter can be used 4 humans if alive, while the 1st is solely used 4 GOD. In Hebrew we have 'YHWH' n 'adonai' the latter which can be used 4 Jesus as well as other Prophets at there time when they were alive. The 1st is only used 4 GOD. The Bible makes it clearly tht the Ultimate Saviour is GOD n tht Jesus brought the Message 4 his ppl.
Again?Thanks for acknowledging that the Holiness of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is acknowledged in 19.19!
Khi- When did i ever say tht the Jesus was not Holy or not a special mesenger of GOD? I dont deny this. Yet i deny calling him GOD or the Sviour 4 my Saviour is GOD Alone. I hope u got this?
Wrong.
They both proclaim that Jesus is God Almighty?
Khi- Show us where plz? I read all four of them n found no such statement tht Jesus is GOD. On the contrary found him 2 be a servant n messenger of GOD.
Actually, you stated absolutely NOTHING regarding my rebuttal to #21?the expansion of the Universe?
Your silence speaks volumes.
Khi- If i were silent i wldnt have replied all this time, wld i? As regards 2 the expnading universe u continue 2 claim tht the Quran copied it. Again i tell u tht the Quran is a confirmation of the previous scriptures thus it has 2 repeat some parts of the them. It may well be tht the Quran also contains something which is there in the Veda like 2 worship none but GOD which is there in their scriptures too. Does tht make the Quran of n o worth? Obviously not since those scriptures contain many absurdities besides tht while the Quran doesnt. The sole focus of the Quran is 2 worship GOD Alone. I cld not however get this impression from reading the Bible.
Additionally, your replies to sura 55 leave much to be desired?..as you know little to nothing about the classic Arabic of your book of faith?
Thanks?
Khi- Playing with words doesnt change the facts. Also Yusuf Ali n other translators as well translated 'warda' as red rose even be4 cat eye nebula was discovered. Can it thus be coincidence? GOD Bless!
-
Greetings idmkhizar,
Thanks for your reply?
Khi- Yes the verse does refer 2 both Jinn n man.
Thanks for acknowledging that this ayah refers to both men and jinns. Furthermore, this ayah is repeated over and over again through-out this entire sura ? amplifying that its content revolves around these two things.
So wht if the Bible also talks abt Jinn? The Quran is a confirmation of the previous scriptures as i probably stated be4.
Actually, the authors of the Koran made it quite clear that they only collected and copied from the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?
N moreover how does this refernce negate the fact of the scientific in tht verse?
There is no astronomical ?scientific fact? whatsoever that can be forced into an ayah that quite clearly describes the terror induced by the so-called jinns, which look like a cross between men and lions?
Quote
Your silence tells us all we need to know?
Khi- I told u i cant drop in everywhere. Im addressing all ur pts though.
Looks like you are doing a pretty good job of ignoring my expansion of the universe post?
Quote
It should be pointed-out that the demonic locusts as described in Revelation chapter 9 are the source material for the Koranic concept of ?Jinns??.
Please tell us exactly how Jinns would fall under the ?science? category?.?
Khi- Tht is a spearete issue. Just coz Jinn havent been discovered by science yet it doesnt mean they dont exist. The verse above refers 2 BOTH humans n jinn the former of which is known.
If demons haven?t been ?discovered? by modern science, then how can anything from sura 55 be forced into modern science in the first place??
Btw the "demonic" locusts as u call them have nothing 2 do with Jinn.
The entire Koranic ?jinn? concept is wholly derived from Biblical scriptures?but, that is a thread all by itself?
Jinn can also be interpreted 2 mean a certain type of reptile from the Quran. Plz read
He then threw his staff, whereupon it became a profound SNAKE.I suggest that you look up the word translated as ?snake??.
"Throw down your staff." When he saw it moving like a JAAN(from jinn), he turned around and fled. "O Moses, do not be afraid. My messengers shall not fear.
By taking both verses 2gether we may infer tht Jinn r some kind of reptiles. However this is another topic altogether n has got nothing 2 do with the clear sign as mentioned in the above verse.Please show me how you are going to ?blend? these two ayahs which do not even share the same root?
Quote
Please bring forth the word translated as ?rested??
Khi- If according 2 u tht word has any other menaing ur welcome 2 show it. However in all Bibles ive seen the 7th day was always the day of rest.
Yet im ready 2 rethink on tht if u say tht the word in Hebrew has a different meaning.Well?if you ever take the time to study the original languages of scripture, instead of relying on the ?popular? renderings, then a whole new world will be opened to you.
Let?s review your ignorance?
Gen 22 And on the seventh7637 day3117 God430 ended3615 his work4399 which834 he had made;6213 and he rested7673 on the seventh7637 day3117 from all4480, 3605 his work4399 which834 he had made.6213
Look at the word commonly translated as ?rested?
H7673
shabath
shaw-bath'
A primitive root; to repose, that is, desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causatively, figuratively or specifically) - (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.Thus?.it is quite clear that the Creator God of the Universe ceased His creative work on the seventh ?day?.
We are presently still in the seventh ?day??
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That is because it is second-hand information?
Khi- The style of the Quran is much better according 2 wht ive read. But u know wht let the ppl decide 4 themselves. Let them read both Bible n Quran, whichever they like 1st. N then well see which one theyll choose.
The authors of the Koran sliced and diced the Biblical material that they used to compose their opus?
N then again if the Quran copied y didnt it copy the 7th day part in the Bible? Y didnt it copy the part where GOD allegedly repented in the Bible 4 having made man? Does GOD need 2 repent??! Nobody wld like 2 worsip a god who repents 4 doing something. GOD the almighty has already calculated the outcome of everything n He knows wht 2 do. It makes absolutely no sense 2 repent. So again the Quran does not seem 2 copy.
Now that you understand that the Koran is lacking in the details of the Holy Bible; you can understand the need for the Holy Bible to correct and clarify the missing elements which the authors of the Koran forgot to copy-over?
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Perhaps you need to re-read the Book of Luke, as vast quantities of it were used by the authors of the Koran?
Khi- Again i must say so wht? THE QURAN IS AFTER ALL A CONFORMATION OF THE PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES. IT REITERATES THE LOGICAL N SENSIBLE PARTS N LEAVES OUT THE ABSURD N USELESS. Tht again wld make it no less than miraculous.
Thanks for acknowledging that the Koran copies Biblical material.
Most Muslims will not admit this?.I?m glad to see that you are brave enough to do so?
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Why not join us and tell us??
Khi- Wht shld i tell u? I asked the qs. U tell us plz. Y doesnt the Quran mention the 7th day. I believe It obviously didnt coz it didnt plagiarize but confirmed only the right part of the Bible, or better the previous scriptures which were indeed once sent by GOD. Though i must say at this pt tht NOT ALL the books in the Bible r divinely inspired.
Again?the Holy Bible is required to correct and clarify the missing elements of the Koran?..and they are many, as you have already discovered?
The Koran claims a six day creation, and then cannot even back up the details that outline each day?
Thankfully, the Holy Bible comes to the rescue?
Many Christian theologians seriously doubt the book of revelation for example.
Then please bring forth any portion of the book of Revelation that you feel is NOT contained within your Koran?
Good luck?
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Wrong.
They both proclaim that Jesus is God Almighty?
Khi- Show us where plz? I read all four of them n found no such statement tht Jesus is GOD. On the contrary found him 2 be a servant n messenger of GOD.
Well?since you can?t be bothered with the ?original? language of the Koran, then how exactly would you know??
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Actually, you stated absolutely NOTHING regarding my rebuttal to #21?the expansion of the Universe?
Your silence speaks volumes.
Khi- If i were silent i wldnt have replied all this time, wld i? As regards 2 the expnading universe u continue 2 claim tht the Quran copied it.
Correct?the authors of the Koran did indeed copy it?they even said that they did?
Again i tell u tht the Quran is a confirmation of the previous scriptures thus it has 2 repeat some parts of the them.
Since you acknowledge that the Koran is no more than a second hand copier?then you can obviously see that the Holy Bible is the original and required to correct and clarify the Koran in all manner of things?
Which it does?Thanks?
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Thanks for acknowledging that this ayah refers to both men and jinns. Furthermore, this ayah is repeated over and over again through-out this entire sura ? amplifying that its content revolves around these two things.
Khi- Tht is true n i never denied tht. Neither does this negate the scientific fact mentioned in tht sura by any means.
Actually, the authors of the Koran made it quite clear that they only collected and copied from the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?
Khi- Actually it is the Bible which is nothing but a copy of old mesopotamiam myths
http//www.bibleorigins.net/genesisgenesis.html
http//www.outgrowingthebible.com/myths_and_mushrooms.htm
The Quran highlights only those parts of the Bible which were truly Divine, thus conforming it. The Quran also mentions things which r not there in the Bible at all like the women cutting their hands after seeing Joseph n the shirt part i mentioned earlier. The Quran doesnt contain illogical staments abt GOD tht He had 2 repent or rested on the 7th day.There is no astronomical ?scientific fact? whatsoever that can be forced into an ayah that quite clearly describes the terror induced by the so-called jinns, which look like a cross between men and lions?
Khi- When the sky disintegrated(anshaqatti as-SAMAA), and turned(fakaanat) rose colored(WARDA) like paint.
The verse clearly says tht when the HEAVEN/SKY(samaa) moved apart/split/disnitegratged it formed a red rose n this is exactly wht happened. So 4 me this verse is as clear as day. GOD shows this sign 2 BOTH us humans n the jinn.Looks like you are doing a pretty good job of ignoring my expansion of the universe post?
Khi- I never ignored tht. I told u tht the Quran confims the previous scriptures. Tht is one of the functions of the Quran.
If demons haven?t been ?discovered? by modern science, then how can anything from sura 55 be forced into modern science in the first place??
Khi- Wht kind of pseudo logic is this? Just coz somthing in sura 55 hasnt been discovered by science yet tht definitely does NOT mean nothing in tht sura refers 2 any scientific fact.
The entire Koranic ?jinn? concept is wholly derived from Biblical scriptures?but, that is a thread all by itself?
Khi- Yes indeed this has nothing 2 do with our current issue. But as i said the Quran confirms parts of the previous scriptures.
I suggest that you look up the word translated as ?snake??.
Khi- "th'ubaan" meaning snake/serpent.
Please show me how you are going to ?blend? these two ayahs which do not even share the same root?
Khi- They both desribe the sign/miracle of wht happened 2 Moses staff when he threw it in different words.
Well?if you ever take the time to study the original languages of scripture, instead of relying on the ?popular? renderings, then a whole new world will be opened to you.
Let?s review your ignorance?
Gen 22 And on the seventh7637 day3117 God430 ended3615 his work4399 which834 he had made;6213 and he rested7673 on the seventh7637 day3117 from all4480, 3605 his work4399 which834 he had made.6213
Look at the word commonly translated as ?rested?
H7673
shabath
shaw-bath'
A primitive root; to repose, that is, desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causatively, figuratively or specifically) - (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.Thus?.it is quite clear that the Creator God of the Universe ceased His creative work on the seventh ?day?.
We are presently still in the seventh ?day??
Khi- So tht means tht the word commonly trans as 'rest' only implies tht GOD didnt do any work on tht day? Ok but y does GOD have 2 mention a day on which He ceases 2 do anything? It doesnt make any sense 2 me. N moreover we now know tht the whole world is all in our brain. it is a perception. Think of it as a matrix controlled by GOD n thus GOD has 2 be consistently refreshing it. The work thus continues. In other words without GOD we r not n cannot be.
The authors of the Koran sliced and diced the Biblical material that they used to compose their opus?
Khi- Well if this were true then they must have been superhuman authors 2 get It into such fantastic style n order. However the Quran's author is GOD n no one else. The Quran has moer than one proof 4 this of which one of the grteatest is It's mathematical structure n tht is the one i usually focus on. Bro Bahman has challenged anyone 2 produce a mathematzical structure like tht of sura 1 like it on his website
www.y19.net
Hes been waiting 4 years now. Hes ready 2 give up if u can immitate such a composition. U r welcome 2 the challenge.Now that you understand that the Koran is lacking in the details of the Holy Bible; you can understand the need for the Holy Bible to correct and clarify the missing elements which the authors of the Koran forgot to copy-over?
Khi- This claim of "lacking" details reminds me of the hadithists whom ive left behind 4 good. They make the same stupid claim. Ppl who r not satisfied with GOD's Words keep on asking 4 more n more details. 4 me the Quran contains all the necessary details 4 salvation.
Thanks for acknowledging that the Koran copies Biblical material.
Most Muslims will not admit this?.I?m glad to see that you are brave enough to do so?
Khi- As i said it is one of the functions of the Quran 2 confirm the previous scriptures. It is the style n structure in which they r phrased wht makes it miraculous since the Quran says
Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.Again?the Holy Bible is required to correct and clarify the missing elements of the Koran?..and they are many, as you have already discovered?
Khi- 4 me i dont need the Bible 2 clarify anything. Everything logical n sensible is as clear as day from Quran Alone. Ur claims r similar 2 those of the hadithists.
The Koran claims a six day creation, and then cannot even back up the details that outline each day?
Khi- The details mentioned in the Quran r enough 4 me. We dont need the absurdities in the Bible.
Thankfully, the Holy Bible comes to the rescue?
Khi- Thanku but the "Holy" Bible wld be doing good by trying 2 rescue itself.
Then please bring forth any portion of the book of Revelation that you feel is NOT contained within your Koran?
Good luck?
Khi- Ive read the whole book of revelation n found no similarities btw it n the Quran. However lets just suppose there was one phrase in tht Biblical book which is there in the Quran too. Wld tht proof tht the Quran only copied? Not at all coz tht only shows tht the Quran confirmed a particular part from a previous scripture.
Well?since you can?t be bothered with the ?original? language of the Koran, then how exactly would you know??
Khi- If u show me i wld know.
Correct?the authors of the Koran did indeed copy it?they even said that they did?
Khi- Where? Can u show us?
Since you acknowledge that the Koran is no more than a second hand copier?then you can obviously see that the Holy Bible is the original and required to correct and clarify the Koran in all manner of things?
Which it does?Thanks?
Khi- No i cannot since the Bible itself is a copy of mesopotamiam myths n therefore we find so much nonsense in it. The Quran on the other hand does not. GOD Bless!
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Greetings idmkhizar,
Thanks for your comments?
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Thanks for acknowledging that this ayah refers to both men and jinns. Furthermore, this ayah is repeated over and over again through-out this entire sura ? amplifying that its content revolves around these two things.
Khi- Tht is true n i never denied tht. Neither does this negate the scientific fact mentioned in tht sura by any means.
Please review the ?scientific? content of sura 55?.once again for us?
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Actually, the authors of the Koran made it quite clear that they only collected and copied from the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?
Khi- Actually it is the Bible which is nothing but a copy of old mesopotamiam myths
http//www.bibleorigins.net/genesisgenesis.html
http//www.outgrowingthebible.com/myths_and_mushrooms.htmIf you believe this, then what does that make the Koran, as it is 99% Biblical material?
The Quran highlights only those parts of the Bible which were truly Divine, thus conforming it.
Then, that would be the 99% that it borrows from it?
The Quran doesnt contain illogical staments abt GOD tht He had 2 repent or rested on the 7th day.
Instead, the Koran states that there are seven heavens and seven earths to go with them?
Furthermore, the stars reside in the lowest of the seven heavens next to earth?and the moon is above the stars?.and the stars are protection for those nasty rebellious devils? roll
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There is no astronomical ?scientific fact? whatsoever that can be forced into an ayah that quite clearly describes the terror induced by the so-called jinns, which look like a cross between men and lions?
Khi- When the sky disintegrated(anshaqatti as-SAMAA), and turned(fakaanat) rose colored(WARDA) like paint.
The verse clearly says tht when the HEAVEN/SKY(samaa) moved apart/split/disnitegratged it formed a red rose n this is exactly wht happened. So 4 me this verse is as clear as day. GOD shows this sign 2 BOTH us humans n the jinn.Perhaps you need to study the classic Arabic in which your book of faith was penned, instead of Modern English?.as there is night and day difference in what the authors meant, as I have already amply demonstrated to you?
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Looks like you are doing a pretty good job of ignoring my expansion of the universe post?
Khi- I never ignored tht. I told u tht the Quran confims the previous scriptures. Tht is one of the functions of the Quran.
The Koran does not confirm anything?.it can only copy?
You witnessed this first hand in my expansion of the Universe reply?in which the Biblical material totally and absolutely blows away anything contained within the Koran?
So tell us?exactly how does the Koran ?clarify? something when the Koran itself leaves out copious amounts of detail?.?
The Koran plays second fiddle to the Holy Bible?just accept this fact of life?
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If demons haven?t been ?discovered? by modern science, then how can anything from sura 55 be forced into modern science in the first place??
Khi- Wht kind of pseudo logic is this? Just coz somthing in sura 55 hasnt been discovered by science yet tht definitely does NOT mean nothing in tht sura refers 2 any scientific fact.
Then what exactly is the point of your ?scientific? thread in the first place?
You cannot even back up what you want to force-fit into your book of faith?Quote
The entire Koranic ?jinn? concept is wholly derived from Biblical scriptures?but, that is a thread all by itself?
Khi- Yes indeed this has nothing 2 do with our current issue. But as i said the Quran confirms parts of the previous scriptures.
The origins of the Koranic text indeed has everything to do with Biblical material?so yes, it is of utmost importance?
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Well?if you ever take the time to study the original languages of scripture, instead of relying on the ?popular? renderings, then a whole new world will be opened to you.
Let?s review your ignorance?
Gen 22 And on the seventh7637 day3117 God430 ended3615 his work4399 which834 he had made;6213 and he rested7673 on the seventh7637 day3117 from all4480, 3605 his work4399 which834 he had made.6213
Look at the word commonly translated as ?rested?
H7673
shabath
shaw-bath'
A primitive root; to repose, that is, desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causatively, figuratively or specifically) - (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.Thus?.it is quite clear that the Creator God of the Universe ceased His creative work on the seventh ?day?.
We are presently still in the seventh ?day??
Khi- So tht means tht the word commonly trans as 'rest' only implies tht GOD didnt do any work on tht day? Ok but y does GOD have 2 mention a day on which He ceases 2 do anything?
The same is in your Koran?
It doesnt make any sense 2 me. N moreover we now know tht the whole world is all in our brain. it is a perception. Think of it as a matrix controlled by GOD n thus GOD has 2 be consistently refreshing it. The work thus continues. In other words without GOD we r not n cannot be.
Hmmm?.did you forget to put this in your list of ?scientific? Koranic facts?.?
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The authors of the Koran sliced and diced the Biblical material that they used to compose their opus?
Khi- Well if this were true then they must have been superhuman authors 2 get It into such fantastic style n order.
Should we laugh now?..or later?.?
However the Quran's author is GOD n no one else.
Actually, the Koran has many authors who pieced it together long after your supposed ?prophet??.
The Quran has moer than one proof 4 this of which one of the grteatest is It's mathematical structure n tht is the one i usually focus on. Bro Bahman has challenged anyone 2 produce a mathematzical structure like tht of sura 1 like it on his website
www.y19.net
Hes been waiting 4 years now. Hes ready 2 give up if u can immitate such a composition. U r welcome 2 the challenge.I already showed you the heart of code 19??19.19??.describes the deity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?.
It must be a miracle?
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Now that you understand that the Koran is lacking in the details of the Holy Bible; you can understand the need for the Holy Bible to correct and clarify the missing elements which the authors of the Koran forgot to copy-over?
Khi- This claim of "lacking" details reminds me of the hadithists whom ive left behind 4 good. They make the same stupid claim. Ppl who r not satisfied with GOD's Words keep on asking 4 more n more details. 4 me the Quran contains all the necessary details 4 salvation.
Then?.you agree? the Koran lacks then detail of its source material?
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Thanks for acknowledging that the Koran copies Biblical material.
Most Muslims will not admit this?.I?m glad to see that you are brave enough to do so?
Khi- As i said it is one of the functions of the Quran 2 confirm the previous scriptures. It is the style n structure in which they r phrased wht makes it miraculous since the Quran says
Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.Perhaps you need to put aside your English translation as see what the text really states?
Waanzalna ilayka alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi mina alkitabi wamuhayminan AAalayhi faohkum baynahum bima anzala Allahu wala tattabiAA ahwaahum AAamma jaaka mina alhaqqi likullin jaAAalna minkum shirAAatan waminhajan walaw shaa Allahu lajaAAalakum ommatan wahidatan walakin liyabluwakum feema atakum faistabiqoo alkhayrati ila Allahi marjiAAukum jameeAAan fayunabbi-okum bima kuntum feehi takhtalifoona
5.48 And We descended to you The Book with the truth , confirming to what (is) between his hands from The Book, and guarding/protecting on it, so judge/rule between them with what Allah descended and do not follow their self attractions for desires about what came to you from the truth, to each from you We made/put Allah's decreed way of life/method/law and order , and a clear/easy/plain way , and if Allah wanted/willed, He would have made you one nation/generation, and but to test you in what He gave you, so race/surpass (to) the goodnesses/generosity (good deeds), to Allah (is) your return altogether, so He informs you with what you were in it differing/disagreeing.
Please show us the word ?superceding??.
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The Koran claims a six day creation, and then cannot even back up the details that outline each day?
Khi- The details mentioned in the Quran r enough 4 me. We dont need the absurdities in the Bible.
You mean the lack of Koranic details?
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Then please bring forth any portion of the book of Revelation that you feel is NOT contained within your Koran?
Good luck?
Khi- Ive read the whole book of revelation n found no similarities btw it n the Quran. However lets just suppose there was one phrase in tht Biblical book which is there in the Quran too. Wld tht proof tht the Quran only copied? Not at all coz tht only shows tht the Quran confirmed a particular part from a previous scripture.
Actually, almost the entire Book of Revelation is contained within the pages of the Koran?in fact, it defines much of it?
Thanks?
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Please review the ?scientific? content of sura 55?.once again for us?
Khi- Very well
When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint.
Which of your(both us n the jinn) Lord's marvels can you(us n the jinn) deny?
Thus this is a sign from GOD 2 both us humans n the jinn who might live in a parallel world or whtsoever. MAybr they too r advanced or will one day advance in science 2 appreciate this sign. I did n so did many others.If you believe this, then what does that make the Koran, as it is 99% Biblical material?
Khi- U still didnt get it. The Quran confirms the previous scriptures. Thus it has 2 reiterate statements from them through in a very different style n adding some new details which r not there in the Bible plus leaving out the absurdities. Btw lemme at this stage pt out another very important pt. The Quran never mentions the term Father 4 GOD, or GOD's sons although this is found alot of times in thew Bible. Many times in the Bible ppl r mentioned as children of God or sons of GOD. The Quran does not do so even once. If it copied from the Bible it wld have at least called GOD the Father once wldnt it. Instead it uses a rather more difficult word 2 pronounce in the Arabic namely 'rabb' meaning 'Lord/Cherisher/Sustainer. It is not logical 2 say we r GOD's children. No we r his servants. The theme of the Quran is strictly 2 wroship GOD Alone. Also notice these two major differences
The devil whispered to them, in order to reveal their bodies, which were invisible to them. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree, except to prevent you from becoming angels, and from attaining eternal existence."
Here GOD says tht the devil said to Adam n Eve tht they shldnt eat from the tree lest they become ANGELS whereas the Bible says 'lest ye become gods'. A major difference. The Quran makes more sense as the stage of angelism can logically be reached n satan knew tht wheras becoming GOD i believe both satan n aamam knew this 2 be utterly illogical n impossible. If satan wld have said tht Adam wld surely have considered him mental n disobeyed him.
The NT of the Bible says tht 'it is as difficult 4 a RICH man 2 enter heaven as it is 4 a camel 2 pass through the needle's head'. Doesnt make much sense 2 me. Y cld a rich man not be good. There r many rich men who r loving n caring as well n they believe in GOD. On the other hand the Quran mentions the same camel parable in a logical way. It says
Surely, those who reject our revelations and are too arrogant to uphold them, the gates of the sky will never open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the needle's eye. We thus requite the guilty.
I hope u got my pt now.Then, that would be the 99% that it borrows from it?
Khi- See my reply above.
Instead, the Koran states that there are seven heavens and seven earths to go with them?
Khi- So has this been disproven by science. Ppl cld have made the same claim of verse 2130 some 100 yrs ago while now it is clear. Also this verse cld refer 2 the layers of the earth's atmosphere which r indeed seven n the earth similarly has seven layers. The verse doesnt say seven earth's. It says 'wa minal ardi mithlahunna'
GOD created seven universes/skies of the atmosphere and of the earth a similar (number). The commands flow among them. This is to let you know that GOD is Omnipotent, and that GOD is fully aware of all things.
Both interpretations r correct n who knows maybe in a few yrs the other one will also be proven. Again not having discovered the meaning of a particular verse in the Quran or any other book does not prove it wrong. If it goes against an established fact then it is wrong. However no verse in the Quran goes against logic or any established scientific fact.Furthermore, the stars reside in the lowest of the seven heavens next to earth?and the moon is above the stars?.and the stars are protection for those nasty rebellious devils? roll
Khi- I think u have mixed up something there. Cld u plz show us the verses 2 support ur view. As regards stars in lower heaven 1stly id like 2 tell u tht this whole universe filled with stars can be interpreted 2 be the lowest universe. 2ndly the verse says 'sammaa ud dunya' n can have other interpretations as well. it's literal meaning is 'universe/sky of the world' n not 'lowest heaven'. The verse also mentions 'kaukab' which means 'planets' not 'stars'. The word 4 stars is 'najjoom'. As 4 the rebellious devils tht is most probably an allegory talking abt those who try 2 tell the future by looking at the stars n thereby seek help from the jinn. Uptil 2day ppl r doing this devilish work.
Perhaps you need to study the classic Arabic in which your book of faith was penned, instead of Modern English?.as there is night and day difference in what the authors meant, as I have already amply demonstrated to you?
Khi- We have many English trans of the Quran be4 the discovery of cat eye nebula which translate the verse similarly i.e. when the sky/universe is rent asunder/split asunder it turns like a red rose. Coincidence?
The Koran does not confirm anything?.it can only copy?
Khi- Oh really? Plz view my reply above.
You witnessed this first hand in my expansion of the Universe reply?in which the Biblical material totally and absolutely blows away anything contained within the Koran?
Khi- No i did not witness tht the Bible blows away anything in the Quran. Just coz a particluar staement in thw Bible is reiterated in the Quran doesnt mean it is of no worth. I request u 2 see my replies above again.
So tell us?exactly how does the Koran ?clarify? something when the Koran itself leaves out copious amounts of detail?.?
Khi- It leaves out the illogical absurdities as ive already stated many times be4. It meantions only those parts which r true.
The Koran plays second fiddle to the Holy Bible?just accept this fact of life?
Khi- No it doesnt.
Then what exactly is the point of your ?scientific? thread in the first place?
You cannot even back up what you want to force-fit into your book of faith?Khi- I told u tht the verse i quoted clearly refers 2 the sky/heaven becoming read rosy like when it disintegrates n thts the literal trans of tht verse. Coincidence?
The origins of the Koranic text indeed has everything to do with Biblical material?so yes, it is of utmost importance?
Khi- Only the true parts, not the false n absurd ones as i mentioned above.
The same is in your Koran?
Khi- Where does the Quran say tht He ceased 2 control the heavens n the earth? Quite on the contrary we always find in the Quran tht GOD is the doer of everything. Example
God Is Doing Everything
It was not you who killed them; GOD is the One who killed them. It was not you who threw when you threw; GOD is the One who threw. But He thus gives the believers a chance to earn a lot of credit. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
We clearly see tht although physically the act has been done by a human
yet it is GOD Who controlls it ultimately. He has camculated each n everything
This is to ascertain that they have delivered their Lord's messages. He is fully aware of what they have. He has counted the numbers of all things.Hmmm?.did you forget to put this in your list of ?scientific? Koranic facts?.?
Khi- I quoted verses above already. Here is another
It is we who control life and death, and we are the ultimate inheritors.Should we laugh now?..or later?.?
Khi- U may laugh as loud as u can. The wrongdoers always laugh at the believers.
When he showed them our proofs, they laughed at them.
Whatever argument they come up with, we provide you with the truth, and a better understanding.Actually, the Koran has many authors who pieced it together long after your supposed ?prophet??.
Khi- The Quran was compiled on later but the instruction on how 2 do it was Divine n given 2 the Prophet who then gave it 2 his companions. The Quran also contains an inbuilt matheatical pattern based on no 19.
I already showed you the heart of code 19??19.19??.describes the deity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?.
It must be a miracle?
Khi- The birth of Jesus no doubt was a miracle n if the Quran says he was pure then he was but tht does not mean hes GOD neither does it make him the saviour. The Quran never says so. Again y r u evading the challenge?
Then?.you agree? the Koran lacks then detail of its source material?
Khi- The Quran has all we need 4 salavation. It does not have the absurd "details" which u want it 2 have. If it had then i wldnt have believed in it just like i dont believe in the Bible being the word of GOD as a whole.
Perhaps you need to put aside your English translation as see what the text really states?
Khi- Ok lets see.
Waanzalna ilayka alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi mina alkitabi wamuhayminan AAalayhi faohkum baynahum bima anzala Allahu wala tattabiAA ahwaahum AAamma jaaka mina alhaqqi likullin jaAAalna minkum shirAAatan waminhajan walaw shaa Allahu lajaAAalakum ommatan wahidatan walakin liyabluwakum feema atakum faistabiqoo alkhayrati ila Allahi marjiAAukum jameeAAan fayunabbi-okum bima kuntum feehi takhtalifoona
5.48 And We descended to you The Book with the truth , confirming to what (is) between his hands from The Book, and guarding/protecting on it, so judge/rule between them with what Allah descended and do not follow their self attractions for desires about what came to you from the truth, to each from you We made/put Allah's decreed way of life/method/law and order , and a clear/easy/plain way , and if Allah wanted/willed, He would have made you one nation/generation, and but to test you in what He gave you, so race/surpass (to) the goodnesses/generosity (good deeds), to Allah (is) your return altogether, so He informs you with what you were in it differing/disagreeing.
Please show us the word ?superceding??.
Khi- 'muSaddiqan' which means both 2 confirm n supercede. Also read
In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated tale/revelation/saying; but a conformation of wht went before it, and provides a detailed exposition of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.
Again we get the same meaning tht the Quran exposes the false events in the stories which were in previous scriptures n confirms the right ones.You mean the lack of Koranic details?
Khi- Duh!
Actually, almost the entire Book of Revelation is contained within the pages of the Koran?in fact, it defines much of it?
Thanks?
Khi- Cld u plz demontrate this 4 us? GOD Bless!
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Greetings idmkhizar,
Thanks for your reply?
Quote
Please review the ?scientific? content of sura 55?.once again for us?
Khi- Very well
When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint.
Which of your(both us n the jinn) Lord's marvels can you(us n the jinn) deny?
Thus this is a sign from GOD 2 both us humans n the jinn who might live in a parallel world or whtsoever. MAybr they too r advanced or will one day advance in science 2 appreciate this sign. I did n so did many others.Perhaps you misunderstood my point?
Show us the portion of modern science that buttresses 55.37??thanks?
Quote
If you believe this, then what does that make the Koran, as it is 99% Biblical material?
Khi- U still didnt get it. The Quran confirms the previous scriptures. Thus it has 2 reiterate statements from them through in a very different style n adding some new details which r not there in the Bible plus leaving out the absurdities.
Again?let me ask you one more time to bring forth one single solitary ayah from your book of faith that specifically states that the written word of God (i.e. the Holy Bible) to be in error in any way, shape, or form?
You keep floundering in understanding this most basic premise.
Btw lemme at this stage pt out another very important pt. The Quran never mentions the term Father 4 GOD, or GOD's sons although this is found alot of times in thew Bible. Many times in the Bible ppl r mentioned as children of God or sons of GOD. The Quran does not do so even once. If it copied from the Bible it wld have at least called GOD the Father once wldnt it.
I suggest that you review the root ?aba? and its eight derivatives, as it is indeed used to reference the god of the Koran.
Instead it uses a rather more difficult word 2 pronounce in the Arabic namely 'rabb' meaning 'Lord/Cherisher/Sustainer. It is not logical 2 say we r GOD's children. No we r his servants. The theme of the Quran is strictly 2 wroship GOD Alone.
Please show us exactly how and where ?rabb? is utilized in your book of faith?
The devil whispered to them, in order to reveal their bodies, which were invisible to them. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree, except to prevent you from becoming angels, and from attaining eternal existence."
Here GOD says tht the devil said to Adam n Eve tht they shldnt eat from the tree lest they become ANGELS whereas the Bible says 'lest ye become gods'. A major difference. The Quran makes more sense as the stage of angelism can logically be reached n satan knew tht wheras becoming GOD i believe both satan n aamam knew this 2 be utterly illogical n impossible. If satan wld have said tht Adam wld surely have considered him mental n disobeyed him.Let?s review your ignorance?
Gen 35 For3588 God430 doth know3045 that3588 in the day3117 ye eat398 thereof,4480 then your eyes5869 shall be opened,6491 and ye shall be1961 as gods,430 knowing3045 good2896 and evil.7451
H430
'elohym
BDB Definition- (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods - (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God
Part of Speech noun masculine plural
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number plural of H433
Same Word by TWOT Number 93c
Thus?.had you even bothered (like usual) to refer to to original languages, then you would have been able to resolve your apparent conundrum?
Thus, you can see how the authors of the Koran (once again) copied Biblical material?
Quote
Instead, the Koran states that there are seven heavens and seven earths to go with them?
Khi- So has this been disproven by science.
Yes.
Ppl cld have made the same claim of verse 2130 some 100 yrs ago while now it is clear.
21.30 is not only a contradiction (with other portions of the Koran), but it also falls flat when compared to Modern physics?
Heaven and earth ripped apart or called together?
Sura 4111 states that in the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together.
Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth "You (B) come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily ." They said "We came obedient."
Sura 2130 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.
Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they were joined, so We split/ruptured them, and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe? (2130)
The Big Bang did not produce matter directly. It produced a pure, exquisitely hot radiant energy of such high level that matter was able to form from energy.
This is the translation of E (energy) into M (matter) of Einstein?s famous E=MC^2.
Sura 2130 states that the skies/space and the earth were initially joined, and then split. This is in direct conflict with the Big Bang, which, as mentioned above, initiated with pure energy, and later became matter. Matter and Energy are not joined. Matter and Energy are two different forms of the same entity.
Thus, Sura 2130 has no basis, and is in direct conflict with established Modern science.
Here is a quote from Al, himself
"It followed from the special theory of relativity that mass and energy are both but different manifestations of the same thing -- a somewhat unfamiliar conception for the average mind. Furthermore, the equation E is equal to m c-squared, in which energy is put equal to mass, multiplied by the square of the velocity of light, showed that very small amounts of mass may be converted into a very large amount of energy and vice versa. The mass and energy were in fact equivalent, according to the formula mentioned before. This was demonstrated by Cockcroft and Walton in 1932, experimentally."
Albert Einstein, 1948.
Also this verse cld refer 2 the layers of the earth's atmosphere which r indeed seven n the earth similarly has seven layers.
Wrong.
The verse doesnt say seven earth's. It says 'wa minal ardi mithlahunna'
GOD created seven universes/skies of the atmosphere and of the earth a similar (number). The commands flow among them. This is to let you know that GOD is Omnipotent, and that GOD is fully aware of all things.Actually it does indeed say seven earths?as exemplified by the concomitance of ?wa? in the Arabic.
Both interpretations r correct n who knows maybe in a few yrs the other one will also be proven.
Not likely.
Again not having discovered the meaning of a particular verse in the Quran or any other book does not prove it wrong.
The ayah in question is abundantly clear.
It claims seven earths and seven heavens.
We both know that this is patently false.
If it goes against an established fact then it is wrong. However no verse in the Quran goes against logic or any established scientific fact.
I have already shown you several.
Perhaps you need to brush up on your understanding of the modern sciences?..and your Arabic for that matter?
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Furthermore, the stars reside in the lowest of the seven heavens next to earth?and the moon is above the stars?.and the stars are protection for those nasty rebellious devils?
Khi- I think u have mixed up something there. Cld u plz show us the verses 2 support ur view.
Already did that in my sequence comparison thread?.the one that you are unwilling to join in on the discussion?I wonder why?. roll
As regards stars in lower heaven 1stly id like 2 tell u tht this whole universe filled with stars can be interpreted 2 be the lowest universe.
Wrong.
There is only ONE universe.
That is why it is called the UNI-verse.
UNI means one, and only one.
2ndly the verse says 'sammaa ud dunya' n can have other interpretations as well. it's literal meaning is 'universe/sky of the world' n not 'lowest heaven'.
Prove it?
The verse also mentions 'kaukab' which means 'planets' not 'stars'. The word 4 stars is 'najjoom'.
Again?ground already covered in my Creation thread?
As 4 the rebellious devils tht is most probably an allegory talking abt those who try 2 tell the future by looking at the stars n thereby seek help from the jinn. Uptil 2day ppl r doing this devilish work.
Prove it?
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Perhaps you need to study the classic Arabic in which your book of faith was penned, instead of Modern English?.as there is night and day difference in what the authors meant, as I have already amply demonstrated to you?
Khi- We have many English trans of the Quran be4 the discovery of cat eye nebula which translate the verse similarly i.e. when the sky/universe is rent asunder/split asunder it turns like a red rose. Coincidence?
Again?.show us Modern Astro physics which backs up the ?terror? induced by the Jinn?s as stated in sura 55?
Good luck?
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You witnessed this first hand in my expansion of the Universe reply?in which the Biblical material totally and absolutely blows away anything contained within the Koran?
Khi- No i did not witness tht the Bible blows away anything in the Quran. Just coz a particluar staement in thw Bible is reiterated in the Quran doesnt mean it is of no worth. I request u 2 see my replies above again.
QuoteSo tell us?exactly how does the Koran ?clarify? something when the Koran itself leaves out copious amounts of detail?.?
Khi- It leaves out the illogical absurdities as ive already stated many times be4. It meantions only those parts which r true.
Then?.which parts of the Biblical Universe Expansion is ?illogical? according to the authors of the Koran ? who (by your very own acknowledgement) leave copious amounts of detail out of their opus??
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The same is in your Koran?
Khi- Where does the Quran say tht He ceased 2 control the heavens n the earth? Quite on the contrary we always find in the Quran tht GOD is the doer of everything. Example
God Is Doing EverythingTake a look?
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THAT YOUR LORD (IS) ALLAH WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH IN SIX DAYS/TIMES, then He aimed to/sat on/straightened on the throne/royal bed/palace, the daytime covers/darkens the night, it seeks/wants it quickly/urgently , and the sun and the moon and the stars/planets (are) manipulated/subjugated with His order/command, is (it) not to Him the creation and the order/command/matter/affair? Blessed (is) Allah the creatures all together's/(universes') Lord. (754)
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ALLAH IS WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH, AND WHAT (IS) BETWEEN THEM IN SIX DAYS/TIMES, then He aimed to/sat on on the throne , none from a mediator and nor guardian/ally (is) for you from other than Him, so do you not mention/remember ? (324)
What did allah do after the six-day creation?.?
He THEN ?thumma? SAT on the throne/royal bed?!
This means that the Koranic god rested after his six-day creation.
Understand?Quote
Actually, the Koran has many authors who pieced it together long after your supposed ?prophet??.
Khi- The Quran was compiled on later but the instruction on how 2 do it was Divine n given 2 the Prophet who then gave it 2 his companions. The Quran also contains an inbuilt matheatical pattern based on no 19.
The Koran was not even written by followers of Islam.
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I already showed you the heart of code 19??19.19??.describes the deity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?.
It must be a miracle?
Khi- The birth of Jesus no doubt was a miracle n if the Quran says he was pure then he was but tht does not mean hes GOD neither does it make him the saviour. The Quran never says so. Again y r u evading the challenge?
The Koran is clear that Jesus is your Lord and Savior.
This is quite plain for all to see in sura 86.
19.19 is an absolute miracle in that it points to this very same thing?
Why deny your Koran?.?
Quote
Waanzalna ilayka alkitaba bialhaqqi musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi mina alkitabi wamuhayminan AAalayhi faohkum baynahum bima anzala Allahu wala tattabiAA ahwaahum AAamma jaaka mina alhaqqi likullin jaAAalna minkum shirAAatan waminhajan walaw shaa Allahu lajaAAalakum ommatan wahidatan walakin liyabluwakum feema atakum faistabiqoo alkhayrati ila Allahi marjiAAukum jameeAAan fayunabbi-okum bima kuntum feehi takhtalifoona
5.48 And We descended to you The Book with the truth , confirming to what (is) between his hands from The Book, and guarding/protecting on it, so judge/rule between them with what Allah descended and do not follow their self attractions for desires about what came to you from the truth, to each from you We made/put Allah's decreed way of life/method/law and order , and a clear/easy/plain way , and if Allah wanted/willed, He would have made you one nation/generation, and but to test you in what He gave you, so race/surpass (to) the goodnesses/generosity (good deeds), to Allah (is) your return altogether, so He informs you with what you were in it differing/disagreeing.
Please show us the word ?superceding??.
Khi- 'muSaddiqan' which means both 2 confirm n supercede.
Wrong.
Try again?
Also read
In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated tale/revelation/saying; but a conformation of wht went before it, and provides a detailed exposition of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.
Again we get the same meaning tht the Quran exposes the false events in the stories which were in previous scriptures n confirms the right ones.Wrong again?
Ever bother to study the Arabic of these ayahs?.?
Guess not?
Quote
Actually, almost the entire Book of Revelation is contained within the pages of the Koran?in fact, it defines much of it?
Thanks?
Khi- Cld u plz demontrate this 4 us? GOD Bless!
Just to show impartiality?YOU feel free to pick any portion that you feel is not contained within your book of faith?
As the Japanese say??rottsaruck??.come to think of it, George Jetsen?s dog would also say the very same thing?
Take care?
- (plural)
-
Perhaps you misunderstood my point?
Show us the portion of modern science that buttresses 55.37??thanks?
Khi- Salam. Wht do u mean? i already told u 5537 clearly states then when the universe disintergrates/splits/moves apart it is like a red rose exactly like cat eye's nebula due 2 the long wavelength while moving apart.
Again?let me ask you one more time to bring forth one single solitary ayah from your book of faith that specifically states that the written word of God (i.e. the Holy Bible) to be in error in any way, shape, or form?
Khi- 1st of all Bible is from the Greek 'biblos' n is not a Divine given name. It has been given so by humans. The word 'bible' is not found in the Bible itself. Therefore the Quran can logically not be referring 2 it by name. 2ndly the Bible is not the Word of GOD as a whole. As 4 the distortion of GOD'S Words it was done by ppl of the book in the past n GOD mentions it in the Quran
Do you expect them to believe as you do, when some of them used to hear the word of GOD, then distort it, with full understanding thereof, and deliberately?
Therefore, woe to those who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.
Among those who are Jewish, some distort the words beyond the truth,...
O you messenger, do not be saddened by those who hasten to disbelieve among those who say, "We believe," with their mouths, while their hearts do not believe. Among the Jews, some listened to lies. They listened to people who never met you, and who distorted the words out of context, then said, "If you are given this, accept it, but if you are given anything different, beware." Whomever GOD wills to divert, you can do nothing to help him against GOD. GOD does not wish to cleanse their hearts. They have incurred humiliation in this world, and in the Hereafter, they will suffer a terrible retribution.I suggest that you review the root ?aba? and its eight derivatives, as it is indeed used to reference the god of the Koran.
Khi- The Quran uses thw word 'rabb' maning 'Lord/Cherisher/sustainer' 4 GOD n NEVER 'aba'. Show me otherwise.
Please show us exactly how and where ?rabb? is utilized in your book of faith?
Khi- The 1st verse it is mentioned in is
Praise be to GOD, Lord of the universe(RABB il 'alameen).
This verse indicates tht Hes the sustainer of the heavens n the earth. But it occurs in many other verses also. In this verse we can clearly see GOD 2 be the Provider
Recall that you said, "O Moses, we can no longer tolerate one kind of food. Call upon your LORD(RABB) to produce for us such earthly crops as beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions." He said, "Do you wish to substitute that which is inferior for that which is good? Go down to Egypt, where you can find what you asked for." They have incurred condemnation, humiliation, and disgrace, and brought upon themselves wrath from GOD. This is because they rejected GOD's revelations, and killed the prophets unjustly. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.Let?s review your ignorance?
Gen 35 For3588 God430 doth know3045 that3588 in the day3117 ye eat398 thereof,4480 then your eyes5869 shall be opened,6491 and ye shall be1961 as gods,430 knowing3045 good2896 and evil.7451
H430
'elohym
BDB Definition- (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods - (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God
Part of Speech noun masculine plural
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number plural of H433
Same Word by TWOT Number 93c
Thus?.had you even bothered (like usual) to refer to to original languages, then you would have been able to resolve your apparent conundrum?
Thus, you can see how the authors of the Koran (once again) copied Biblical material?
Khi- The word 'elohym' PRIMARILY means 'God' not 'angels'. U seem 2 be focussing on derived 2ndary meanings which is the basic prob with ur interpreation. In Arabic we have the word 'Malak' which is primarily used 4 'angel'. The Hebrew inly clarifies this more. If the Quran copied then y did it not translate 'elohym' into 'ilaahain' instead of 'malakain'?
Yes.
Khi- Show us where n how.
21.30 is not only a contradiction (with other portions of the Koran), but it also falls flat when compared to Modern physics?
Khi- Oh really? Show us how plz? N it does not contra other verses if u have the proper understanding of them.
Heaven and earth ripped apart or called together?
Sura 4111 states that in the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together.
Khi- The Arabic word here used 4 come 2gether does NOT imply physical coming 2gther but 2 come into EXISTANCE. This is an old attck by Chriostians n has been refuted many times over.
Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth "You (B) come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily ." They said "We came obedient."
Khi- Yes tht is they came into existance after the gas cooled.
Sura 2130 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.
Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they were joined, so We split/ruptured them, and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe? (2130)
Khi- Yes the big bang.
The Big Bang did not produce matter directly. It produced a pure, exquisitely hot radiant energy of such high level that matter was able to form from energy.
This is the translation of E (energy) into M (matter) of Einstein?s famous E=MC^2.
Sura 2130 states that the skies/space and the earth were initially joined, and then split. This is in direct conflict with the Big Bang, which, as mentioned above, initiated with pure energy, and later became matter. Matter and Energy are not joined. Matter and Energy are two different forms of the same entity.
Khi- The verse is written in conveional language but is clearly understood by anyone who has some sense as 2 refer 2 the big bang. Even if matter did not come out diretly yet wht this verse clearly indicates is tht the heavens n the earth HAVE THE SAME ORIGIN i.e. came from a single pt. I think tht is clear enough. U r only trying 2 confuse things. Ive read these statements be4 n ive already stated this in my objection n defense in the initial post of this thread.
Thus, Sura 2130 has no basis, and is in direct conflict with established Modern science.
Here is a quote from Al, himself
"It followed from the special theory of relativity that mass and energy are both but different manifestations of the same thing -- a somewhat unfamiliar conception for the average mind. Furthermore, the equation E is equal to m c-squared, in which energy is put equal to mass, multiplied by the square of the velocity of light, showed that very small amounts of mass may be converted into a very large amount of energy and vice versa. The mass and energy were in fact equivalent, according to the formula mentioned before. This was demonstrated by Cockcroft and Walton in 1932, experimentally."
Albert Einstein, 1948.
Khi- I believe ive answered this already.
Wrong.
Khi- Seven heavens
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Troposphere
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Stratosphere
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Ozonosphere
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Mesosphere
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Thermosphere
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Ionosphere
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Exosphere
4 7 layers of the earth plz check
http//library.thinkquest.org/28327/html/universe/solar_system/planets/earth/interior/layers_of_earth.htmlActually it does indeed say seven earths?as exemplified by the concomitance of ?wa? in the Arabic.
Khi- The verse can be understood tht GOD created seven heavens/skies layers n of the earth a similar number of layers. Is it a coincidence tht we find seven layers in the atmosphere n of the earth a similar number. Even if we do take it 2 mean seven distinct earths n universes, who knows there might be parallel universes. So in both cases this Quranic verse is not discredited by any means.
Not likely.
Khi- Well see.
The ayah in question is abundantly clear.
It claims seven earths and seven heavens.
We both know that this is patently false.
Khi- Ok lets take it tht way. How can u say tht this is false when u dont know there maybe parallel universes?
I have already shown you several.
Khi- No u havent.
Perhaps you need to brush up on your understanding of the modern sciences?..and your Arabic for that matter?
Khi- I cld say the same 4 u.
Already did that in my sequence comparison thread?.the one that you are unwilling to join in on the discussion?I wonder why?. roll
Khi- Lets move on.
Wrong.
There is only ONE universe.
That is why it is called the UNI-verse.
UNI means one, and only one.
Khi- How do u know? How do u know tht there rnt any parallel universes which havent been discovered as yet? Again ur playing with words. Lets tranlate the word 'samaa' as heavenly dimension which it can also be understood as perhaps then ull get a better idea of wht im talking abt.
Prove it?
Khi- I gave u the literal translation of 'samaa ud dunya' where 'samaa' means 'heaven/sky/universe' n dunya means 'world'.
Again?ground already covered in my Creation thread?
Khi- Well then lets move on.
Prove it?
Khi- Y shld i waste my time proving the obvious.
Again?.show us Modern Astro physics which backs up the ?terror? induced by the Jinn?s as stated in sura 55?
Good luck?
Khi- As i said there r various interpretations of Jinn as they have not yet been fully understood. Tht however does not discredit the scientific fact which is there 4 us 2 see n the Quran mentioned it.
Then?.which parts of the Biblical Universe Expansion is ?illogical? according to the authors of the Koran ? who (by your very own acknowledgement) leave copious amounts of detail out of their opus??
Khi- Im not only talking abt the expnasion part. Im talking abt the previous scriptures as a whole. The Quran is there 2 confirm the true parts out of them of which the expansion is one of them.
Take a look?
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THAT YOUR LORD (IS) ALLAH WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH IN SIX DAYS/TIMES, then He aimed to/sat on/straightened on the throne/royal bed/palace, the daytime covers/darkens the night, it seeks/wants it quickly/urgently , and the sun and the moon and the stars/planets (are) manipulated/subjugated with His order/command, is (it) not to Him the creation and the order/command/matter/affair? Blessed (is) Allah the creatures all together's/(universes') Lord. (754)
-
ALLAH IS WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH, AND WHAT (IS) BETWEEN THEM IN SIX DAYS/TIMES, then He aimed to/sat on on the throne , none from a mediator and nor guardian/ally (is) for you from other than Him, so do you not mention/remember ? (324)
What did allah do after the six-day creation?.?
He THEN ?thumma? SAT on the throne/royal bed?!
This means that the Koranic god rested after his six-day creation.
Understand?Khi- 'Istawa 'ala al 'arsh' means 2 'establish upon the throne i.e. '2 assume authority' in this context n by no means refers 2 any rest. Also the Arbic word 'thumma' can also mean 'simultaneouly/moreover' besides 'then'.
The Koran was not even written by followers of Islam.
Khi- Islamic hiostory notes down well tht the Quran was written down n compiled by Caliph Omar ibne khattab. However i believe tht the Prophet himself wrote down the Quran. The following verse indicates this
They also said, "Tales from the past that he(Muhammad) WROTE DOWN; they were dictated to him day and night."
The word 'ummy' means 'gentile' in Quranic context or not knowing the scripture of the ppl of the book n not illiterate.The Koran is clear that Jesus is your Lord and Savior.
This is quite plain for all to see in sura 86.
Khi- No it is not. Sura 86 does not talk abt Jesus. It begins with a mystical/poetical reference n then talks abt the human creation n 2 reflect upon it. If the Quran wanted 2 mention Jesus as the saviour It wld have done so clearly without any mysterious words. Such a crucial issue wld have 2 be very clear. Our saviour is GOD Alone. All other righteous r His servants.
19.19 is an absolute miracle in that it points to this very same thing?
Why deny your Koran?.?
Khi- I dont deny it but u do. If thts a miracle it's 4 u as a Christian so y dont u accept the Quran then?
Wrong.
Try again?
Khi- In ur view everyathing i say is wrong anyway. So y not discuss this with someone else then?
Wrong again?
Ever bother to study the Arabic of these ayahs?.?
Guess not?
Khi- Duh!
Just to show impartiality?YOU feel free to pick any portion that you feel is not contained within your book of faith?
As the Japanese say??rottsaruck??.come to think of it, George Jetsen?s dog would also say the very same thing?
Take care?
Khi- As far as ive read nothing is. GOD Bless!
- (plural)
-
Greetings idmkhizar,
Thanks for your reply?
Quote
Perhaps you misunderstood my point?
Show us the portion of modern science that buttresses 55.37??thanks?
Khi- Salam. Wht do u mean? i already told u 5537 clearly states then when the universe disintergrates/splits/moves apart it is like a red rose exactly like cat eye's nebula due 2 the long wavelength while moving apart.
Let me spell it out for you?
Show us the documented Law(s) of physics that would apply to this ayah?.
Please quit stalling for more time?
Quote
Again?let me ask you one more time to bring forth one single solitary ayah from your book of faith that specifically states that the written word of God (i.e. the Holy Bible) to be in error in any way, shape, or form?
Khi- 1st of all Bible is from the Greek 'biblos' n is not a Divine given name. It has been given so by humans. The word 'bible' is not found in the Bible itself. Therefore the Quran can logically not be referring 2 it by name.
Then let?s use Koranic terminology?
Please show us where the written ?alkitaba??i.e. the Jewish and Christian scriptures?.are stated to be in ?error? in any way, shape, or form?.
2ndly the Bible is not the Word of GOD as a whole.
Then why does 99% of the Koran come from it?.?
As 4 the distortion of GOD'S Words it was done by ppl of the book in the past n GOD mentions it in the Quran
Do you expect them to believe as you do, when some of them used to hear the word of GOD, then distort it, with full understanding thereof, and deliberately?This ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
Therefore, woe to those who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.
Again, this ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
Among those who are Jewish, some distort the words beyond the truth,...
Again, this ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
You cannot even show it in its context.
O you messenger, do not be saddened by those who hasten to disbelieve among those who say, "We believe," with their mouths, while their hearts do not believe. Among the Jews, some listened to lies. They listened to people who never met you, and who distorted the words out of context, then said, "If you are given this, accept it, but if you are given anything different, beware." Whomever GOD wills to divert, you can do nothing to help him against GOD. GOD does not wish to cleanse their hearts. They have incurred humiliation in this world, and in the Hereafter, they will suffer a terrible retribution.
Again, this ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
I have to ask; why is it so hard to find a single solitary written ?alkitaba??i.e. the Jewish and Christian scriptures?.which you claim are stated to be in ?error? in any way, shape, or form?.?
The answer is clear?..it does not exist anywhere in the Koran.
The Koran has only praise for its source material.
Quote
Let?s review your ignorance?
Gen 35 For3588 God430 doth know3045 that3588 in the day3117 ye eat398 thereof,4480 then your eyes5869 shall be opened,6491 and ye shall be1961 as gods,430 knowing3045 good2896 and evil.7451
H430
'elohym
BDB Definition- (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods - (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God
Part of Speech noun masculine plural
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number plural of H433
Same Word by TWOT Number 93c
Thus?.had you even bothered (like usual) to refer to to original languages, then you would have been able to resolve your apparent conundrum?
Thus, you can see how the authors of the Koran (once again) copied Biblical material?
Khi- The word 'elohym' PRIMARILY means 'God' not 'angels'.
Where does it state this?
U seem 2 be focussing on derived 2ndary meanings which is the basic prob with ur interpreation.
I showed you the references for my position, you are free to verify them yourself ...yeah, right?. wink
In Arabic we have the word 'Malak' which is primarily used 4 'angel'. The Hebrew inly clarifies this more.
The Hebrew ?clarifies? the Arabic??!
If the Quran copied then y did it not translate 'elohym' into 'ilaahain' instead of 'malakain'?
Ask the authors of the Koran.
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21.30 is not only a contradiction (with other portions of the Koran), but it also falls flat when compared to Modern physics?
Khi- Oh really? Show us how plz? N it does not contra other verses if u have the proper understanding of them.
Done.
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Heaven and earth ripped apart or called together?
Sura 4111 states that in the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together.
Khi- The Arabic word here used 4 come 2gether does NOT imply physical coming 2gther but 2 come into EXISTANCE. This is an old attck by Chriostians n has been refuted many times over.
Bring forth your references?
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Then He aimed/tended to the sky/space and it is smoke/fumes, so He said to it and to the earth/Planet Earth "You (B) come voluntarily or forcefully/involuntarily ." They said "We came obedient."
Khi- Yes tht is they came into existance after the gas cooled.
After the gas cooled?.?
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Sura 2130 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.
Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they were joined, so We split/ruptured them, and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe? (2130)
Khi- Yes the big bang.
This is not the Big Bang.
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The Big Bang did not produce matter directly. It produced a pure, exquisitely hot radiant energy of such high level that matter was able to form from energy.
This is the translation of E (energy) into M (matter) of Einstein?s famous E=MC^2.
Sura 2130 states that the skies/space and the earth were initially joined, and then split. This is in direct conflict with the Big Bang, which, as mentioned above, initiated with pure energy, and later became matter. Matter and Energy are not joined. Matter and Energy are two different forms of the same entity.
Khi- The verse is written in conveional language but is clearly understood by anyone who has some sense as 2 refer 2 the big bang. Even if matter did not come out diretly yet wht this verse clearly indicates is tht the heavens n the earth HAVE THE SAME ORIGIN i.e. came from a single pt. I think tht is clear enough. U r only trying 2 confuse things. Ive read these statements be4 n ive already stated this in my objection n defense in the initial post of this thread.
Let me put it to like this.
If the authors of the Koran were stating what we now call the Big Bang?.i.e?..the origin of matter, energy, space, and time?..then where does the Koran state that time itself had a beginning, like the Holy Bible does..
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Thus, Sura 2130 has no basis, and is in direct conflict with established Modern science.
Here is a quote from Al, himself
"It followed from the special theory of relativity that mass and energy are both but different manifestations of the same thing -- a somewhat unfamiliar conception for the average mind. Furthermore, the equation E is equal to m c-squared, in which energy is put equal to mass, multiplied by the square of the velocity of light, showed that very small amounts of mass may be converted into a very large amount of energy and vice versa. The mass and energy were in fact equivalent, according to the formula mentioned before. This was demonstrated by Cockcroft and Walton in 1932, experimentally."
Albert Einstein, 1948.
Khi- I believe ive answered this already.
Actually, you have not.
Khi- Seven heavens
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Troposphere
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Stratosphere
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Ozonosphere
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Mesosphere
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Thermosphere
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Ionosphere
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Exosphere
4 7 layers of the earth plz check
http//library.thinkquest.org/28327/html/universe/solar_system/planets/earth/interior/layers_of_earth.htmlAnd the stars are located in the lowest of these layers?.?!
And the moon is located in the middle?.?!
Not likely?
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Actually it does indeed say seven earths?as exemplified by the concomitance of ?wa? in the Arabic.
Khi- The verse can be understood tht GOD created seven heavens/skies layers n of the earth a similar number of layers. Is it a coincidence tht we find seven layers in the atmosphere n of the earth a similar number. Even if we do take it 2 mean seven distinct earths n universes, who knows there might be parallel universes. So in both cases this Quranic verse is not discredited by any means.
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The ayah in question is abundantly clear.
It claims seven earths and seven heavens.
We both know that this is patently false.
Khi- Ok lets take it tht way. How can u say tht this is false when u dont know there maybe parallel universes?
QuoteWrong.
There is only ONE universe.
That is why it is called the UNI-verse.
UNI means one, and only one.
Khi- How do u know? How do u know tht there rnt any parallel universes which havent been discovered as yet? Again ur playing with words. Lets tranlate the word 'samaa' as heavenly dimension which it can also be understood as perhaps then ull get a better idea of wht im talking abt.
The most proven principles in all of physics, (GR & SR) mandate that ONE Universe exists?.
Had you bothered to study your science, then you would have already known this to be true.
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Prove it?
Khi- I gave u the literal translation of 'samaa ud dunya' where 'samaa' means 'heaven/sky/universe' n dunya means 'world'.
Give the classical definitions?.Oh?yeah?..you don?t study the classic Arabic?
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Again?.show us Modern Astro physics which backs up the ?terror? induced by the Jinn?s as stated in sura 55?
Good luck?
Khi- As i said there r various interpretations of Jinn as they have not yet been fully understood. Tht however does not discredit the scientific fact which is there 4 us 2 see n the Quran mentioned it.
Then why posit it as a ?scientific fact? in this thread in the first place, if you keep falling down in defense of it??
We can see how weak your ?arguments? are?
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Then?.which parts of the Biblical Universe Expansion is ?illogical? according to the authors of the Koran ? who (by your very own acknowledgement) leave copious amounts of detail out of their opus??
Khi- Im not only talking abt the expnasion part. Im talking abt the previous scriptures as a whole. The Quran is there 2 confirm the true parts out of them of which the expansion is one of them.
You conveniently keep avoiding the Cosmic expansion?..
Like I said, the Koran plays a distant second fiddle?.your constant avoidance of the loss of Koranic ?clarity? in the Universe expansion is a classic example that the Holy Bible has total command over the Koran?
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Take a look?
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THAT YOUR LORD (IS) ALLAH WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH IN SIX DAYS/TIMES, then He aimed to/sat on/straightened on the throne/royal bed/palace, the daytime covers/darkens the night, it seeks/wants it quickly/urgently , and the sun and the moon and the stars/planets (are) manipulated/subjugated with His order/command, is (it) not to Him the creation and the order/command/matter/affair? Blessed (is) Allah the creatures all together's/(universes') Lord. (754)
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ALLAH IS WHO CREATED THE SKIES/SPACE AND THE EARTH/PLANET EARTH, AND WHAT (IS) BETWEEN THEM IN SIX DAYS/TIMES, then He aimed to/sat on on the throne , none from a mediator and nor guardian/ally (is) for you from other than Him, so do you not mention/remember ? (324)
What did allah do after the six-day creation?.?
He THEN ?thumma? SAT on the throne/royal bed?!
This means that the Koranic god rested after his six-day creation.
Understand?Khi- 'Istawa 'ala al 'arsh' means 2 'establish upon the throne i.e. '2 assume authority' in this context n by no means refers 2 any rest.
Where are your references??
Also the Arbic word 'thumma' can also mean 'simultaneouly/moreover' besides 'then'.
Show me the definition and the context?
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The Koran was not even written by followers of Islam.
Khi- Islamic hiostory notes down well tht the Quran was written down n compiled by Caliph Omar ibne khattab. However i believe tht the Prophet himself wrote down the Quran. The following verse indicates this
They also said, "Tales from the past that he(Muhammad) WROTE DOWN; they were dictated to him day and night."
The word 'ummy' means 'gentile' in Quranic context or not knowing the scripture of the ppl of the book n not illiterate.Actually, your ?prophet's? name is no where mentioned in that sura. Thus, to apply it to him would be a great leap of faith.
Additionally, there are no extant Korans that date to the life and times of your ?prophet?. In fact, there are no fragments of suras that are within a century of the supposed ?revelations??
Thus, what evidence do you actually have??
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The Koran is clear that Jesus is your Lord and Savior.
This is quite plain for all to see in sura 86.
Khi- No it is not. Sura 86 does not talk abt Jesus.
Yes, it does.
It begins with a mystical/poetical reference n then talks abt the human creation n 2 reflect upon it.
Think so?.?
If the Quran wanted 2 mention Jesus as the saviour It wld have done so clearly without any mysterious words. Such a crucial issue wld have 2 be very clear. Our saviour is GOD Alone. All other righteous r His servants.
Actually, the deity of Jesus is exquisitely clear in the Classic Arabic of your book of faith.
However, you are doing your best to avoid studying the mother tongue of your book of faith? shock
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19.19 is an absolute miracle in that it points to this very same thing?
Why deny your Koran?.?
Khi- I dont deny it but u do. If thts a miracle it's 4 u as a Christian so y dont u accept the Quran then?
I accept only the portions that agree with the Holy Bible?such as the deity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ? which has been copied over, and over by the Koranic authors numerous times?
Furthermore, I always reference the original in my faith?the Koran is merely second-hand Biblical information?
Btw?.thanks for conveniently forgetting to address my friendly Book of Revelation challenge?
Take care?
- (plural)
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Let me spell it out for you?
Show us the documented Law(s) of physics that would apply to this ayah?.
Please quit stalling for more time?
Khi- Wht do u mean documented? The cat eye nebula is there 2 see. It occured coz the galaxies r oving apart making an increase in wavelength. It's exactly like a red rose.
Then let?s use Koranic terminology?
Please show us where the written ?alkitaba??i.e. the Jewish and Christian scriptures?.are stated to be in ?error? in any way, shape, or form?.
Khi- Ive quoted the verses below.
Then why does 99% of the Koran come from it?.?
Khi- I dont know where u got this figure from but lets suppose its true. This shows tht the Quran confirms the trueparts of the Bible n leaves out the false parts.
This ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
Khi- Oh but it does clearly
Do you expect them to believe as you do, when some of them used to hear the word of GOD, then distort it(the word of GOD distorted by thse who heard it), with full understanding thereof, and deliberately?
Who wrote down the so called word of GOD? It were the scribes. N they distorted it. Obviously GOD wont distort His own words.Again, this ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
Khi- Im surprised how u reject clear staments
Therefore, woe to those who distort the scripture(obviously their received one) with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.
Btw this is exactly wht the Bible is. Even theologians know tht the Bible is not fully the word of GOD n tht it's scriptures have been distorted.Again, this ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
You cannot even show it in its context.
Khi- Among those who are Jewish, some distort the words beyond the truth,...
This verse clearly indicates tht the Jews who made distortions in the meanings of words.Again, this ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
Khi- Lemme ask u something. Who wrote down the words of GOD. Did GOD do it Himself or did the scribes do it? Obviously the latter n they thus distorted it.
I have to ask; why is it so hard to find a single solitary written ?alkitaba??i.e. the Jewish and Christian scriptures?.which you claim are stated to be in ?error? in any way, shape, or form?.?
The answer is clear?..it does not exist anywhere in the Koran.
The Koran has only praise for its source material.
Khi- Therefore, woe to those who distort the scripture(al kitaab) with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.
Where does it state this?
Khi- I think if u know Hebrew u shld know this. Or do u find the word 'elohym' rferring 2 angels in the Bible? 'Elohym' is always translated 'God'.
I showed you the references for my position, you are free to verify them yourself ...yeah, right?. wink
Khi- I know wht 'elohym' primarily means. The others r derived meanings.
The Hebrew ?clarifies? the Arabic??!
Khi- No the Hebrew word 'elohym' clarifies tht if the Quran wld have copied it wld have used 'ilah' instead of 'malak' as ive stated.
Ask the authors of the Koran.
Khi- I dont need 2 ask. Its coz the Quran dodnt copy. Simple.
Done.
Khi- Lets see.
Bring forth your references?
Khi- Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence(atiya), willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
Lets see the use of the root word 'atee' in the Quran
GOD's command has already been issued/ come forward(atee) (and everything has already been written), so do not rush it.* Be He glorified; the Most High, far above any idols they set up.
Pharaoh summoned his forces, then came(atee).
So it means tht he came forward or appeared.
Only those who bring forward to GOD with their whole heart (will be saved).
So we clearly see tht 'atee' is not used in the sense of coming together. Coming together wld be 'jama'a' or 'rataq'. The word 'ateea' as used in 41.11 means 2 come forth or come into exstance.After the gas cooled?.?
Khi- Yes the remnants of smoke.
This is not the Big Bang.
Khi- It perfectly describes the big bang in conventional Arabic language.
Let me put it to like this.
If the authors of the Koran were stating what we now call the Big Bang?.i.e?..the origin of matter, energy, space, and time?..then where does the Koran state that time itself had a beginning, like the Holy Bible does..
Khi- This is only based on the assumption tht theres nothing outside the universe which we cannot say 4 sure. If there was something outside the universe then time must also have existed. 2ndly time is an abtract relaitive quantity used 2 measure the change of instants as perceived by the observer(s). Thus it doesnt make much sense talking abt time being created. Time exists coz of observers actively observing. If there r none so there will be no time.
Actually, you have not.
Khi- Actually i have.
And the stars are located in the lowest of these layers?.?!
And the moon is located in the middle?.?!
Not likely?
Khi- As i said the words can take both meanings of layers of the sky n dimensions. The full meaning of those verses has yet 2 be understood but has by no means been disproven.
The most proven principles in all of physics, (GR & SR) mandate that ONE Universe exists?.
Had you bothered to study your science, then you would have already known this to be true.
Khi- The possibility of parallel universes has not been falsified as yet. How can one say tht there exists only this space bubble? There cld be more of them.
Give the classical definitions?
Oh?yeah?..you don?t study the classic Arabic?
Khi- Duh! I c u making these staments all the time. Is tht all u can do?
Then why posit it as a ?scientific fact? in this thread in the first place, if you keep falling down in defense of it??
We can see how weak your ?arguments? are?
Khi- Oh really? I guess we cld take a vote on tht on this forum n let them decide whose arguments r absurd n nonsensible.
You conveniently keep avoiding the Cosmic expansion?..
Like I said, the Koran plays a distant second fiddle?.your constant avoidance of the loss of Koranic ?clarity? in the Universe expansion is a classic example that the Holy Bible has total command over the Koran?
Khi- Just coz the Quran reiterates a Biblical statement which happens 2 be true out of the many false shld we conclude tht it copied from the Bible?
Where are your references??
Khi- Duh! Im getting tired of this. Anyone who wants 2 know can easily verify with the Arabic scholars. Tht shld be no prob.
Show me the definition and the context?
Khi- Again u only need 2 ask an Arabic language scholar.
Actually, your ?prophet's? name is no where mentioned in that sura. Thus, to apply it to him would be a great leap of faith.
Khi- 2 whom else cld tht verse have referred? It doesnt make sense otherwise in the context.
Additionally, there are no extant Korans that date to the life and times of your ?prophet?. In fact, there are no fragments of suras that are within a century of the supposed ?revelations??
Thus, what evidence do you actually have??
Khi- If u wanna challenge the history of the Quran's rev then im sorry ur talking 2 the wrong guy. Ull have 2 ask somebody who knows abt tht. Ask Dr. Zakir Naik 4 example. I focus mainly on the content of the Quran n It's mathematical miracle.
Yes, it does.
Khi- No it doesnt n no Muslim sunni , shia or otherwise ever understood this sura in reference 2 Jesus. Ur the 1st one im hering this absurd interpretation from.
Think so?.?
Khi- Yes.
Actually, the deity of Jesus is exquisitely clear in the Classic Arabic of your book of faith.
Khi- Maybe so in ur false opinion. Not in mine neither in the Arabic scholars.
However, you are doing your best to avoid studying the mother tongue of your book of faith? shock
Khi- U see the message of the Quran is clear 'Worship GOD Alone'. Ur complicating the matter here.
I accept only the portions that agree with the Holy Bible?such as the deity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ? which has been copied over, and over by the Koranic authors numerous times?
Khi- U claimed 19.19 as the ultimate code refernce in Quran which is not there in the Bible. Yet u only wanna follow those parts of Quran which agree with the Bible. As i said the Quran is mathematical structured. Therefore if u wanna believe in it u have 2 believe in all of it otherwise ur statemnts regarding 19.19 wld be useless.
Furthermore, I always reference the original in my faith?the Koran is merely second-hand Biblical information?
Khi- U forgot miraculously mathematically composed n leaving out the absudities in the Bible plus adding additional things at times.
Btw?.thanks for conveniently forgetting to address my friendly Book of Revelation challenge?
Take care?
Khi- Like i said the burden of proof is on u. Btw im getting tired now of this debate. I already told u tht the main reason i believe in Quran is It's awesome mathematical strcture. So y dont u take up the challenge at y19.org n produce a sura like it. Bro Bahman n myself r waiting. GOD Bless!
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Greetings idmkhizar,
Thanks for your reply?
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Let me spell it out for you?
Show us the documented Law(s) of physics that would apply to this ayah?.
Please quit stalling for more time?
Khi- Wht do u mean documented? The cat eye nebula is there 2 see. It occured coz the galaxies r oving apart making an increase in wavelength. It's exactly like a red rose.
Once again?
What is the scientific phenomenon that you want to ?attach? to sura 55?.?
How hard can this be for you?.?
Surely, you can ?google? a response to defend your ?googled? scientific ayahs?
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This ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
Khi- Oh but it does clearly
Do you expect them to believe as you do, when some of them used to hear the word of GOD, then distort it(the word of GOD distorted by thse who heard it), with full understanding thereof, and deliberately?
Who wrote down the so called word of GOD? It were the scribes. N they distorted it. Obviously GOD wont distort His own words.AfatatmaAAoona an yu/minoo lakum waqad kana fareequn minhum yasmaAAoona kalama Allahi thumma yuharrifoonahu min baAAdi ma AAaqaloohu wahum yaAAlamoona
2.75 Do you covet that they believe to you, and (there) had been a group/party from them (that) was hearing Allah's speech/conversation, then they alter/distort/change it from after what they understood/comprehended it, and they know?
Please be so kind as to show us the Arabic word or words that you want to force-fit to mean ?distorted WRITTEN words of the Jewish and Christian scriptures? ?
Altered speech is NOT altering the WRITTEN WORD.
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Again, this ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
Khi- Im surprised how u reject clear staments
Therefore, woe to those who distort the scripture(obviously their received one) with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.
Btw this is exactly wht the Bible is. Even theologians know tht the Bible is not fully the word of GOD n tht it's scriptures have been distorted.Quote
I have to ask; why is it so hard to find a single solitary written ?alkitaba??i.e. the Jewish and Christian scriptures?.which you claim are stated to be in ?error? in any way, shape, or form?.?
The answer is clear?..it does not exist anywhere in the Koran.
The Koran has only praise for its source material.
Khi- Therefore, woe to those who distort the scripture(al kitaab) with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.
Fawaylun lillatheena yaktuboona alkitaba bi-aydeehim thumma yaqooloona hatha min AAindi Allahi liyashtaroo bihi thamanan qaleelan fawaylun lahum mimma katabat aydeehim wawaylun lahum mimma yaksiboona
2.79 So grief/distress/woe to those who write The Book with their hands then they say "That (it is) from at Allah." To buy/volunteer with it a small price, so grief/distress/woe to them from what their hands wrote, and grief/distress/woe to them from what they gather/acquire .
Again?please be so kind as to show us the Arabic word or words that you want to force-fit to mean ?distorted WRITTEN words of the Jewish and Christian scriptures? ?
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Again, this ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
You cannot even show it in its context.
Khi- Among those who are Jewish, some distort the words beyond the truth,...
This verse clearly indicates tht the Jews who made distortions in the meanings of words.Mina allatheena hadoo yuharrifoona alkalima AAan mawadiAAihi wayaqooloona samiAAna waAAasayna waismaAA ghayra musmaAAin waraAAina layyan bi-alsinatihim wataAAnan fee alddeeni walaw annahum qaloo samiAAna waataAAna waismaAA waonthurna lakana khayran lahum waaqwama walakin laAAanahumu Allahu bikufrihim fala yu/minoona illa qaleelan
4.46 From those who repented/guided/Jews, they alter the words/expressions from its places, and they say "We heard/listened and we disobeyed." And hear/listen not making others hear, and "Observe us.?Distortion with their tongues/languages and defaming in the religion, and if that they said "We heard/listened and we obeyed and hear/listen and give us time/delay us." (It) would have been best for them and more just/direct, and but Allah cursed them, with their disbelief, so they do not believe, except (for a) few.
Again?please be so kind as to show us the Arabic word or words that you want to force-fit to mean ?distorted WRITTEN words of the Jewish and Christian scriptures? ?
Altered speech is NOT altering the WRITTEN WORD.
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Again, this ayah states nothing regarding the written word of God, to be in error?
Khi- Lemme ask u something. Who wrote down the words of GOD. Did GOD do it Himself or did the scribes do it? Obviously the latter n they thus distorted it.
If the Holy Bible was ?distorted? as you claim, then why are you having such a difficult time trying to find Koranic ayahs to prove your point??
Like I already stated, the authors of the Koran fall all over themselves with praising the validity and correctness of their source material (the Holy Bible).
Are you saying that the authors of the Koran are contradicting themselves??
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This is not the Big Bang.
Khi- It perfectly describes the big bang in conventional Arabic language.
Then where is the statement that time had a beginning?
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Let me put it to like this.
If the authors of the Koran were stating what we now call the Big Bang?.i.e?..the origin of matter, energy, space, and time?..then where does the Koran state that time itself had a beginning, like the Holy Bible does..
Khi- This is only based on the assumption tht theres nothing outside the universe which we cannot say 4 sure. If there was something outside the universe then time must also have existed. 2ndly time is an abtract relaitive quantity used 2 measure the change of instants as perceived by the observer(s). Thus it doesnt make much sense talking abt time being created. Time exists coz of observers actively observing. If there r none so there will be no time.
Do you even know what the Big Bang is??
SR & GR specifically tell us that ALL matter, energy, space, and time in the universe had a beginning.
Period.
End of Story.
Furthermore, time is directly related matter.
No matter. No time.
So?again?..please tell us where the authors of the Koran spoke of time having a beginning, as stated in the Holy Bible hundreds of years BEFORE the Koran was ever penned?
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And the stars are located in the lowest of these layers?.?!
And the moon is located in the middle?.?!
Not likely?
Khi- As i said the words can take both meanings of layers of the sky n dimensions. The full meaning of those verses has yet 2 be understood but has by no means been disproven.
It has yet to be understood??!
Then why try to defend something that you have no idea what it really means in the first place??
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The most proven principles in all of physics, (GR & SR) mandate that ONE Universe exists?.
Had you bothered to study your science, then you would have already known this to be true.
Khi- The possibility of parallel universes has not been falsified as yet. How can one say tht there exists only this space bubble? There cld be more of them.
I deal in verifiable physics.
A theory is only as good as the verifiable evidences that support it.
You, apparently, subscribe to a strong case of wishful thinking.
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You conveniently keep avoiding the Cosmic expansion?..
Like I said, the Koran plays a distant second fiddle?.your constant avoidance of the loss of Koranic ?clarity? in the Universe expansion is a classic example that the Holy Bible has total command over the Koran?
Khi- Just coz the Quran reiterates a Biblical statement which happens 2 be true out of the many false shld we conclude tht it copied from the Bible?
Thanks for admitting that the Holy Bible?s material is indeed correct.
Thanks also for admitting that the authors of the Koran copied this same material.
Now?you will think twice before claiming that the Koran somehow ?clarifies? anything in the Holy Bible. You surely recognize the futility of the Islamic position in the Cosmic expansion theme.
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Where are your references??
Khi- Duh! Im getting tired of this. Anyone who wants 2 know can easily verify with the Arabic scholars. Tht shld be no prob.
See how your ?argument? falls like a wet deck of cards when challenged??
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Additionally, there are no extant Korans that date to the life and times of your ?prophet?. In fact, there are no fragments of suras that are within a century of the supposed ?revelations??
Thus, what evidence do you actually have??
Khi- If u wanna challenge the history of the Quran's rev then im sorry ur talking 2 the wrong guy. Ull have 2 ask somebody who knows abt tht. Ask Dr. Zakir Naik 4 example. I focus mainly on the content of the Quran n It's mathematical miracle.
More Redd herrings?
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However, you are doing your best to avoid studying the mother tongue of your book of faith?
Khi- U see the message of the Quran is clear 'Worship GOD Alone'. Ur complicating the matter here.
How is referencing the mother-tongue of your book of faith ?complicating? the issue??
I can?t wait to hear your response to this.
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I accept only the portions that agree with the Holy Bible?such as the deity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ? which has been copied over, and over by the Koranic authors numerous times?
Khi- U claimed 19.19 as the ultimate code refernce in Quran which is not there in the Bible.
Theomatics totally destroys any wannabe ?code? of the Koran.
Yet u only wanna follow those parts of Quran which agree with the Bible.
Who says that I want to follow the second-hand parts of the Koran??
I follow the source of the Koran, the Holy Bible.
As i said the Quran is mathematical structured. Therefore if u wanna believe in it u have 2 believe in all of it otherwise ur statemnts regarding 19.19 wld be useless.
The Holy Bible is also mathematically structured.
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Btw?.thanks for conveniently forgetting to address my friendly Book of Revelation challenge?
Take care?
Khi- Like i said the burden of proof is on u.
Actually, it is upon you?.and I have given you free reign to choose your own medicine?and yet, you repeatedly decline?.
Btw im getting tired now of this debate. I already told u tht the main reason i believe in Quran is It's awesome mathematical strcture. So y dont u take up the challenge at y19.org n produce a sura like it. Bro Bahman n myself r waiting. GOD Bless!
So?.now that you are unable to defend your sura 55 and expanding Universe posts?you are reduced down to your ?safety zone? of code 19?
Well?.why don?t you compare it to Theomatics?.and see who has the better ?code??
Take care?
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Once again?
What is the scientific phenomenon that you want to ?attach? to sura 55?.?
How hard can this be for you?.?
Surely, you can ?google? a response to defend your ?googled? scientific ayahs?
Khi- Im tired of ur google claims. I dont need 2 google using Quran. Ive4 studied it thoroughly by myself. However it seems 2 me as if ur googling ur material from somewhere. N i dont wanna attach a scientific phenomena 2 the whole sura 55 but verse 37 of it.
AfatatmaAAoona an yu/minoo lakum waqad kana fareequn minhum yasmaAAoona kalama Allahi thumma yuharrifoonahu min baAAdi ma AAaqaloohu wahum yaAAlamoona
2.75 Do you covet that they believe to you, and (there) had been a group/party from them (that) was hearing Allah's speech/conversation, then they alter/distort/change it from after what they understood/comprehended it, and they know?
Khi- Yes the disbleivers after hearing GOD's words distorted them n then this distortion was passed on through hearsay n as a result wht was written down was also hearsay.
Please be so kind as to show us the Arabic word or words that you want to force-fit to mean ?distorted WRITTEN words of the Jewish and Christian scriptures? ?
Altered speech is NOT altering the WRITTEN WORD.
Khi- It seems like u didnt understand this simple issue. As i said GOD didnt write down His words with his own hands. They were written down by scribes.
Fawaylun lillatheena yaktuboona alkitaba bi-aydeehim thumma yaqooloona hatha min AAindi Allahi liyashtaroo bihi thamanan qaleelan fawaylun lahum mimma katabat aydeehim wawaylun lahum mimma yaksiboona
2.79 So grief/distress/woe to those who write The Book with their hands then they say "That (it is) from at Allah." To buy/volunteer with it a small price, so grief/distress/woe to them from what their hands wrote, and grief/distress/woe to them from what they gather/acquire .
Again?please be so kind as to show us the Arabic word or words that you want to force-fit to mean ?distorted WRITTEN words of the Jewish and Christian scriptures? ?
Khi- GOD is talking 2 ppl in general in tht verse. This wld not exclude the Jews n Christians either. Actually this is an indication tht all religious scriptures even the vedas, geetas, etc r distorted n they r. Does the Quran mention themin specific, NO. Also if u read from 267 ull notice tht this verse is in context with Moses n his ppl.
Mina allatheena hadoo yuharrifoona alkalima AAan mawadiAAihi wayaqooloona samiAAna waAAasayna waismaAA ghayra musmaAAin waraAAina layyan bi-alsinatihim wataAAnan fee alddeeni walaw annahum qaloo samiAAna waataAAna waismaAA waonthurna lakana khayran lahum waaqwama walakin laAAanahumu Allahu bikufrihim fala yu/minoona illa qaleelan
4.46 From those who repented/guided/Jews, they alter the words/expressions from its places, and they say "We heard/listened and we disobeyed." And hear/listen not making others hear, and "Observe us.?Distortion with their tongues/languages and defaming in the religion, and if that they said "We heard/listened and we obeyed and hear/listen and give us time/delay us." (It) would have been best for them and more just/direct, and but Allah cursed them, with their disbelief, so they do not believe, except (for a) few.
Again?please be so kind as to show us the Arabic word or words that you want to force-fit to mean ?distorted WRITTEN words of the Jewish and Christian scriptures? ?
Khi-
4.46 From those who repented/guided/Jews, they alter the words/expressions from its places,Altered speech is NOT altering the WRITTEN WORD.
Khi- This is where u r wrong. 1st the expressions of GOD r twisted n then they r written down so tht which is written down automatically wld be distorted as well.
If the Holy Bible was ?distorted? as you claim, then why are you having such a difficult time trying to find Koranic ayahs to prove your point??
Khi- Every previous scripture whether Torah, Gospel, geeta, veda, etc was distorted otherwise there wld be no use of the Quran 2 confirm the truthful parts in them. The Quran thus males a general statement of distortion n therfore the Quran came.
Like I already stated, the authors of the Koran fall all over themselves with praising the validity and correctness of their source material (the Holy Bible).
Khi- Again if u think the Quran was man made then go n take up the challenge at y19.org.
Are you saying that the authors of the Koran are contradicting themselves??
Khi- I dont believe in authorS of the Quran but One AUTHOR of It i.e. GOD
so ur qs is incorrect. N no the Quran does not contradict Itself unlike the Bible's n other previous scriptures.Then where is the statement that time had a beginning?
Khi- Explained below
Khi- This is only based on the assumption tht theres nothing outside the universe which we cannot say 4 sure. If there was something outside the universe then time must also have existed. 2ndly time is an abtract relaitive quantity used 2 measure the change of instants as perceived by the observer(s). Thus it doesnt make much sense talking abt time being created. Time exists coz of observers actively observing. If there r none so there will be no time.
Do you even know what the Big Bang is??
Khi- I surely do.
SR & GR specifically tell us that ALL matter, energy, space, and time in the universe had a beginning.
Period.
End of Story.
Khi- Yes based on the assuption tht theres nothing outside this universe 4 which there is no empirical scientific evidence at all.
Furthermore, time is directly related matter.
No matter. No time.
Khi- Actually it shld be no observer no time. Anti matter also experiences time. Then again we dont know if there is nothing outside our universe.
So?again?..please tell us where the authors of the Koran spoke of time having a beginning, as stated in the Holy Bible hundreds of years BEFORE the Koran was ever penned?
Khi- I dont see much sense with the Biblical starting statment 'In the beginning GOD created the heavens n the earth'. Beginning relative 2 whom GOD or us? Moreover the simpler understanding of this verse is tht it is merely talking abt the initiaition of some process. For example i can say 'In the beginning i had probs with understanding science but now have started 2 grasp the concepts.' This does not indicate the beginning of time in any way but the beginning of an account. So again nothing special in the Bible.
It has yet to be understood??!
Then why try to defend something that you have no idea what it really means in the first place??
Khi- Just coz some verse in the Quran hasnt been fully comprehended as yet shld i reject it? NO! Moreover i believe in the mathematical miracle of the Quran. Im still waiting 4 u 2 take up the challenge at y19.net
I deal in verifiable physics.
A theory is only as good as the verifiable evidences that support it.
You, apparently, subscribe to a strong case of wishful thinking.
Khi- Like i said unless u can show empirical evidence tht nothing exists outside this universe u cant claim tht tht particular verse in the Quran is wrong. Otherwsie the Bible also mentions angels, demons n other mystical beings which science hasnt proven as yet. But i never said tht the Bible is wrong coz of these.
Thanks for admitting that the Holy Bible?s material is indeed correct.
Khi- Parts of it r indeed correct n i never denied this. But most of it has been distirted n just doesnt make sense.
Thanks also for admitting that the authors of the Koran copied this same material.
Khi- Conformed tht particular part wld be the rite statement, thanku.
Now?you will think twice before claiming that the Koran somehow ?clarifies? anything in the Holy Bible. You surely recognize the futility of the Islamic position in the Cosmic expansion theme.
Khi- No i dont need 2. 4 me the Quran is clear while the Bible is not.
See how your ?argument? falls like a wet deck of cards when challenged??
Khi- Duh!
More Redd herrings?
Khi- As i said im not the right guy 2 be asking abt te history of the Quran''s revelation. I focus on It's content n mathemaztical mmiracle. Im still waiting 4 u 2 take up the chellenge.
How is referencing the mother-tongue of your book of faith ?complicating? the issue??
I can?t wait to hear your response to this.
Khi- I dont see any compications here n im still waiting 4 u 2 take up the challenge.
Theomatics totally destroys any wannabe ?code? of the Koran.
Khi- Dont just spill words but plz take up the challenge at y19.net.
Who says that I want to follow the second-hand parts of the Koran??
I follow the source of the Koran, the Holy Bible.
Khi- Duh!
The Holy Bible is also mathematically structured.
Khi- Sorry it's not. 4 the differences btw Bible n Quran's code plz check out
http//www.submission.org/miracle/bible_code.html
N im still waiting 4 u 2 take up the chllenge.Actually, it is upon you?.and I have given you free reign to choose your own medicine?and yet, you repeatedly decline?.
Khi- Duh!
So?.now that you are unable to defend your sura 55 and expanding Universe posts?you are reduced down to your ?safety zone? of code 19?
Well?.why don?t you compare it to Theomatics?.and see who has the better ?code??
Take care?
Khi- Theomatics seems 2 be similar 2 the prohecy methods used by Keikhoswrow Emami n others predicting earthquakes in san francisco using gematria but they failed 2 happen. U can pick n choose a from a large sample n arrane them as u like. Tht is statiscally insignificant. Plz view the challenge at y19.net. GOD Bless!