SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QURAN DEFENDED

Idris

found something on thumma

http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=65&sscatid=89

Title

The Meaning of "Thumma" & "Yawm"

Article

While writing my replies to Mr. Katz's articles, I avoid writing responses to such of these articles to which a satisfactory or a close to satisfactory response has already been given. This is the reason why I avoided writing on "Three groups or Two?", "Who takes the Soul at Death?", "How Many Angels were Sent to Pharaoh?", "How Many Wings do Angels Have?" and "Heaven or Earth, Which was Created First?". Mr. Randy Desmond has written adequate rebuttals of all these articles, which Mr. Katz has posted on his site. Mr. Desmond's response to "Heaven or Earth -- Which was Created first?" is based on the meaning of the Arabic word "Thumma", in about the same way as my own response to "The Length of God's days", was based on the meaning of the word "Yawm".

Mr. Katz in a recent update of his web page has added two short notes, one of which (including a reference from an Arabic dictionary) is a refutation of the meaning of the word "Thumma", as explained by Mr. Desmond and the other * (also including a reference from the dictionary) a refutation of the meaning of the word "yawm", as I tried to explain it in my article.

Mr. Katz, briefly stating his point of view about "Thumma" writes

I just realized something, it's kind of funny actually how I'm trying to prove that Thumma must indicate sequence and order using a dictionary. It just like trying to prove in English that "then" indicates sequence and order. You know, if you come up to an Arab and ask him if Thumma may not indicate sequence or order he'll just laugh.

I do agree with Mr. Katz that it would be rather funny if someone tried proving that the word "then" (in the English language) indicates sequence and order. I also agree that it would be exactly the same case for "thumma" in the Arabic language. But unfortunately what Mr. Katz seems to be forgetting is that the point under consideration is not whether "then" (in the English language) or "thumma" (in the Arabic language) is used to indicate "sequence and order" or not. The point under consideration is whether "thumma" in the Arabic language is used ONLY to indicate "sequence and order". As far as the "Arab" who would "laugh" at some one who asks him " whether there could be a 'Thumma' which may not indicate sequence or order", I would have serious doubts about his being an Arab (or maybe he would not be laughing, maybe he would just be showing his teeth to hide his shame for not knowing good Arabic!!!), just as I would have serious doubts about the Englishman who says that the word "then" in the English language, must indicate "sequence and order" (I am sure Mr. Katz is not saying so.... although he is certainly implying so).

Before looking at "Thumma" in the Arabic language, let us have a look at "then" in the English language. The word "then" in Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary" is given to mean

then ... 1 at that time 2 a Soon after that next in order of time (walked to the door, then turned) b following next after in order of position, narration or enumeration being next in a series (first came the clowns, then came the elephants) c in addition BESIDES (then there is the interest to be paid) 1 3 a (1) in that case (take it then, if you want it so much) (2) used after but to qualify or offset a preceding statement (she lost the race, but then she never really expected to win) b according to that as may be inferred (your mind is made up, then) c as it appears by way of summing up (the cause of the accident, then, is established) d as a necessary consequence (if the angles are equal, then the complements are equal)...
then that time (since then, he has been more cautious)
then existing or acting at or belonging to the time mentioned (the then secretary of state)

The Oxford Advanced Learner's Encyclopedic Dictionary states

then ... 1 (referring to past or future time) (a) at that time We were living in Wales then. o I was still married to my first husband then. o See you on Thursday -- we'll be able to discuss it then. o Jackie Kennedy, as she then was, was still only in her twenties. o The then Prime Minister took her husband with her on all her travels. (b) next; after that; afterwards I'll have soup first and then the chicken. o The liquid turned green and then brown. o We had a week in Rome and then went to Vienna. o (c) (used after a preposition) that time From then on he refused to talk about it. o We'll have to manage without a TV until then. o She'll have retired by then... 2 and also There are the vegetables to peel and the soup to heat. Then there's the table to lay and the wine to cool. o I've sent cards to all my family. Then there's your family and the neighbours.2 3 in that case; therefore If its not on the table then it will be in the drawer. o Offer to take him out for lunch, then (ie as a result of this) he'll feel in a better mood. o He'll be looking for a secretary then?...

I don't think any more evdence shall be required by Mr. Katz or any one else to the effect that the word "then" in the English language is not used ONLY to indicate "sequence and order".

Now let us turn to "Thumma". Mr Katz says that it is obvious that "Thumma" must indicate sequence and order. Let us have a closer look at his claim.

Mohammad Jama'l al-Din ibn Ma'lik, in his famous poetic book on Arabic Grammar "alfiah al-Ma'lik", has started his book with the following poetic verse

'Our speech consists of sensible words, nouns, verbs and moreover prepositions'.

It is obvious that the word "thumma" has been used in the same meaning as given in 2(c) and 2 in the two respective quotations from the dictionaries. I would request Mr. Katz to explain the meaning of "thumma" in this poetic verse, by holding it to necessarily indicate "sequence and order" (ie the meaning of "then" as given in 2(a) and 1(b) in the two respective quotations).

Moreover, the Qur'an has clearly used the word "thumma" in meanings other than that which is given in the dictionary quoted by Mr. Katz.

In Al-An`aam 6 1, the Qur'an says

'Praise be to Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth and made the darknesses and the light, still those who do not believe, ascribe equals to Him.'

The word "thumma" in this verse has been used in the meaning "even after this" or even more simply stated, in the meaning "still". The verse simply refuses to accept the meaning stated by the dictionary that Mr. Katz has quoted.

In the very next verse again, the word "thumma" is not used in the meaning that the dictionary states. The Qur'an says

The first "thumma", is used in exactly the same meaning which is given by the dictionary quoted by Mr. Katz. While the second "thumma" is used in the same meaning as given for verse 6 1 above. The Qur'an has used this word in a number of other places, one of which is al-Taubah 9 126.

Then again, in the same Surah, verse 8, "thumma" has been used in exactly the same meaning as given in 1 and 1(a) in the two respective English dictionaries cited above. 6 8 reads as

The Qur'an has used the "thumma", in the same meaning as given above in a number of other places. (For instance see Yunus 10 103, al-a`la' 87 11 - 13)

Then again, in Al-balad 90 11 - 17, "thumma" has been used in yet another meaning

'But he did not scale the height. What do you know what the height is? Freeing of a bondsman, feeding of an orphaned relative or a distressed poor, in times of hunger. Moreover the person be from amongst those who believe...'.

In this verse, it is more than obvious that "thumma" is used exactly in the same meaning as given in 2 (c) and 2, in the two respective dictionaries cited above.

The use of the word "thumma" in meanings other than those stated by the dictionary (cited by Mr. Katz) is also quite apparent in the Arabic poetry. I present below a few examples only from "Hamasah" -- a collection of Arabic poetry -- that should suffice as evidence to this effect. One of the poets is reported to have said3

'How many problems have fallen on me, I faced them all patiently and "still" I did not bow before them.'

In the above poetic verse, "thumma" has been used in the same meaning as in the Qur'anic verses 6 1 and 6 2 above.

Another one, a woman from Banu Huzza'n, says4

'If she saw me in burning fire, and she had power, she would only increase the fire wood'.

In this verse, "thumma" has been used in the same meaning as we say "and" or "moreover".

Sanna'n says5

'If it was possible to complain to the dead regarding the severe problems that the living faced after them, and (then) if I had complained...'.

Abu Habba'l Barra' ibn Rai`ee says6

"They were excellent brothers . And what is hand but a finger, then another". (ie I am like a hand who has lost all its fingers except one, thus I do not deserve to be called a hand anymore).

These Qur'anic and poetic verses adequately evidence the fact that the dictionary cited by Mr. Katz does not give a comprehensive usage of the word "thumma". These dictionaries are based on the very sources that I have quoted here, these examples are thus far more authentic then any dictionary. Just in case, Mr. Katz is still in need of a quote from a dictionary, I present below one such citation as well.

Al-Mawrid -- the common Arabic-English dictionary -- has explained the word "thumma" as

then, thereupon; afterwards, thereafter, after that, next, later, later on, subsequently; moreover, furthermore, besides

Besides this, the famous dictionary, "Al-Qa'moos al-muheet" may also be seen. This should suffice as evidence for the fact that "thumma" is used in a number of other meanings besides the one which Mr. Katz has mentioned.

The case of the word yawm has already been presented in my response to "The Length of God's days", the quotations there are sufficient for believing that like the word "thumma", the word "yawm" has also been inadequately explained in the cited dictionary. Besides those quotations, the reader may also consider the explanations given in "Lisa'n al-Arab", "Aqrab al-Mawa'rid", "Al-Munjad", "La'roos", "Al-Nihayah", and "Al-Ra'yed".

May the Lord open our hearts for whatever is the Truth.

1- The reader is requested to compare this meaning of "then" with the meaning that is ascribed to "thumma" in the statements under consideration by Mr. Desmond. The similarity is obvious.

2- The reader is requested to compare this meaning of "then" with the meaning that is ascribed to "thumma" in the statements under consideration by Mr. Desmond. The similarity is obvious.

*- The reader should note that the referred dictionary, although does not give a comprehensive meaning of the word "Thumma", but as I have tried to make the point in my response to Mr. Newton's "Grammatical Errors in the Qur'an", has based its meanings on a verse of the Qur'an.

3- "Tashi'l al-Dira'sah fi' sharh al-Hamasah", Zulfiqar Ali, `abd al-Tawwa'b Academy, Multan, March 1986. (Pg. 71)

4- "Tashi'l al-Dira'sah fi' sharh al-Hamasah", Zulfiqar Ali, `abd al-Tawwa'b Academy, Multan, March 1986. (Pg. 222)

5- "Tashi'l al-Dira'sah fi' sharh al-Hamasah", Zulfiqar Ali, `abd al-Tawwa'b Academy, Multan, March 1986. (Pg. 233)

6- "Tashi'l al-Dira'sah fi' sharh al-Hamasah", Zulfiqar Ali, `abd al-Tawwa'b Academy, Multan, March 1986. (Pg. 246)

unknownuser

Greetings Idris,

Thanks for this piece?

Al-Mawrid -- the common Arabic-English dictionary -- has explained the word "thumma" as

then, thereupon; afterwards, thereafter, after that, next, later, later on, subsequently; moreover, furthermore, besides

It is interesting that the author of this piece is attempting to bring Modern Arabic meanings into the discussion of the classic Arabic.

Even so?Al-Mawrid overwhelmingly supports a sequence of events, as does the classic lexicography?

= ?thumma?

?thumma? definition

Then; i.e. afterward, or afterwards, a particle, or conjunction denoting order and delay; mostly used as a conjunction indicating a sequence in line or order to be rendered as then; thereafter; thereupon. It comes from the root ?thamma?, which means he repaired it, or put it into a good, sound, or right, state; to pick up, collect, repair, heap up (things in a place). He collected it together; namely a thing.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 350 - 352
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 84

Thanks?

Andya_Primanda

Khizar, Idris, don't let Apple Pie's discussion of sequence markers distract you. If you consider the verbs it will be much clearer. Regarding either verses for chapter 79 or 41, look for the main 'creation' verb ('Khalaq'), and see that it's only used once in each supposed 'sequence of creation'. Do look at the six-day thread and see Apple Pie trying to make sequence markers more important as they are while ignoring the difference of verbs used.

unknownuser

Greetings Andya Primanda,

We are still waiting for you to explain to us why you think that the Literal English rendition represents the Arabic of 41.9?.

Thanks?

Andya_Primanda

Greetings Andya Primanda,

We are still waiting for you to explain to us why you think that the Literal English rendition represents the Arabic of 41.9?.

Thanks?

Oh sorry I forget about that. Let me tell you that I still think the best material for referencing the Qur'an is the Arabic text itself. English is not my first language, and I can read Arabic, so I prefer studying the Qur'an in its original language. As the Qur'an is self-referencing I use the Qur'an itself to check meanings of words. Dictionaries can help, but at best they offer multiple meanings of each word. In that case I like to close in on the best possible interpretation by picking the one most consistently used in other parts of the Qur'an. Being a science student I also use scientific evidence to help me understand the Qur'an, but only where it's applicable (miracles and metaphysical issues are not amenable to scientific discussion).

So, I guess that can be wrapped as this I don't think any of the English translations, including Literal and Free-minds, can represent the Qur'an in its entirety. The original Arabic script is the most reliable.

Now I'll pass the ball back to the people you've been debating in this thread.

unknownuser

Sun and moon dont collide and all sun, moon and earth float in their own orbits

The sun is never to catch up with the moon - the night and the day (Arabic=nahaAr, meaning not 24h day but that part of the day which has light; property of the planet earth) never deviate - each of them is floating in its own orbit.

Firstly the word orbit is a wrong translation and again is an attempt by you to twist and distort the arabic language to try and get it to match science

Verse 3640 says the moon never catchs up to the sun. This is how it would look to person who knew nothing about science and was looking up at the sky. Its is clearly saying that the sun and the moon are both in orbit around the earth. This is also implied in 911-2 where it says the Moon Follows the sun

By the Sun and his (glorious) splendour;

By the Moon as she follows him;

You haven't put forward one single verse that is proved by science without first twisting the verse around or twisting the meaning of the Arabic words used.

There is nothing scientific about 3640 or 911-2, in fact it is very un-scientific

jonny_k

Peace albion,

Firstly the word orbit is a wrong translation and again is an attempt by you to twist and distort the arabic language to try and get it to match science

Khi- The Arabic word 'falaq' means 'rounded course' n the word 'orbit' is merely another term 4 tht. This is a very weak argument.

Verse 3640 says the moon never catchs up to the sun. This is how it would look to person who knew nothing about science and was looking up at the sky. Its is clearly saying that the sun and the moon are both in orbit around the earth.

Khi- No it quite clearly indicates tht the moon n the sun have DIFFERENT PATHS/ORBITS n therefore dont crash into each other. Again ur trying 2 put a clear verse down without success,

This is also implied in 911-2 where it says the Moon Follows the sun

By the Sun and his (glorious) splendour;

By the Moon as she follows him;

You haven't put forward one single verse that is proved by science without first twisting the verse around or twisting the meaning of the Arabic words used.

There is nothing scientific about 3640 or 911-2, in fact it is very un-scientific

Khi- I never mentioned 911-2 as referring 2 a scientific fact. This is merely a poetic n alegorical expression tht the moon's light follows the sun's. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Greetings idmkhizar,

Let?s review # 12 today?

How clouds form to produce rain

Do you not realize that GOD drives the clouds, then gathers them together, then piles them on each other, then you see the rain coming out of them? He sends down from the sky loads of snow to cover whomever He wills, while diverting it from whomever He wills. The brightness of the snow almost blinds the eyes.
GOD is the One who sends the winds, to stir up clouds, to be spread throughout the sky in accordance with His will. He then piles the clouds up, then you see the rain coming down therefrom. When it falls on whomever He chooses from among His servants, they rejoice.
GOD is the One who sends the winds to stir up clouds, then we drive them towards barren lands, and revive such lands after they were dead. Thus is the resurrection.

O This could have been noticed by the farmers who watch the clouds regularly even in ancient Arabia.
D It is not easily observable that the winds are responsible for stirring up the clouds. Besides the first verse here gives many details.

The following verses are used by Muslims as evidence that the Koran taught a water cycle

He descended from the sky water, so it dissolved/flowed (in)valleys, with its capability/power ,so the flood/torrent carried/bore , increasing foam and from what they ignite/kindle on in the fire desiring ornament/decoration or enjoyment foam as/like it, as/like that Allah gives (examples of) the truth , and the falsehood, so but the foam so it goes useless/worthless, and but what benefits the people, so it remains in the earth/Planet Earth, as/like that Allah gives the examples . (1317)

And We descended from the sky/space water with a measure/quantity, so We settled it in the land/Earth, and We are on taking away/eliminating with it capable/able. (2318 )

Do you not see/understand that Allah drives/eases gently clouds, then He unites/joins between it, then He makes it piled/accumulated, so you see the rain emerges from in between and around it, and He descends from the sky from mountains in it from hail, so He strikes with it whom He wills/wants, and He diverts it from whom He wills/wants, its lightning's shine/flash almost eliminates with the eye sights/knowledge. (2443)

And He is who sent the winds/breezes (as) a good news between His mercy's hand, and We descended from the sky pure/clean water. (2548 )

And if you asked/questioned them "Who descended from the sky water, so He revived with it the Earth/land from after its death/lifelessness?" They will say "Allah." Say "The praise/gratitude (is) to Allah, but/indeed most of them, they do not reason/understand." (2963)

Allah is who sends the winds/breezes so it spreads/agitates clouds, so He spreads/extends it in the sky how He wills/wants, and He makes it pieces, so you see the rain appears/emerges from in between and around it, so when He struck with it whom He wills/wants from His worshippers/slaves, then they are announcing good news/cheerful. (3048 )

Do you not see/understand, that Allah descended from the sky water, so He made it flow/pass (into) water springs/wells in the Earth/land, then He brings out with it plants/crops its colors (are) different, then (it) dries and yellows so you see it yellow/yellowish, then He makes it broken/debris/crumbs, that in that (is) a remembrance/reminder to (owners) of the pure minds/hearts. (3921)

He (is) who shows you/makes you understand His verses/evidences, and He descends for you from the sky provision, and none mentions/remembers except who repents/obeys. (4013)

And if they see/understand pieces from the sky/space dropping/falling they say "Piled/accumulated/heaped clouds." (5244)

Did you see/understand the water which you drink? Did you descend it from the rain/clouds? Or We are the descenders? (5668-69)

Compare what the Holy Bible stated regarding the establishment of a stable water cycle THOUSANDS of years BEFORE the Koran was ever written

God established Earth?s atmosphere and water cycle on Creation ?Day? 2.

And said God, Let be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it (be) dividing between waters (and) the waters. And made God the expanse, and He separated between the waters which (were) under the expanse, and the waters which (were) above the expanse, and it was so. And called God the expanse Heavens; and was the mixing and was the breaking forth time second. (Gen 16-8 )

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Covering Yourself with light like a cloak, and stretching out the heavens like a curtain; who lays beams in the waters of His upper rooms; setting thick clouds as His chariots; walking on the wings of the wind. He makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flaming fire. (Psalm 1042-4)

He waters the hills from His upper rooms; the earth is satisfied from the fruit of Your works. (Psalm 10413)

Praise Him, O heavens of heavens; and O waters that are above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Jehovah; for He commanded, and they were created. And He established them forever and ever; He gave a decree that they not pass away. Let the sea-monsters and all deeps praise Jehovah from the earth, fire and hail, snow and smoke, stormy wind fulfilling His Word, (Psalm 148 4-8 )

The depths were broken up by His knowledge, and the clouds dropped down the dew. (Pro 320)

When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle on the face of the deep, when He formed the clouds above, when He made the strong fountains of the deep, (Pro 827-28 )

God maintains the stability of the water cycle on Earth

Support scripture

For He draws up the drops of water; they distill rain into mist, which the clouds drip down, and drop upon men plentifully. Also can any understand the spreading of the clouds, the crashing of His canopy? Behold, He spreads His light about Him, and He covers the bottom of the sea. For He judges the people by them; He gives plenty of food. He covers His hands with the lightning, and commands it to strike the mark; its thunder tells about Him; also the cattle, as to what is coming. (Job 3627-33)

He lets it loose under the whole heavens, and His lightning to the wings of the earth. After it, a voice roars; He thunders with His majestic voice; and He will not hold them back when His voice is heard. God thunders wondrously with His voice; He does great things, and we do not know. For He says to the snow, Fall on the earth; also to the shower of rain, and the shower of heavy rains. He seals up the hand of every man so that all men may know His work. Then the beast goes into its lair, and they stay in their dens. Out of the storeroom comes the tempest and cold from scattering winds. Ice is given by God's breath, and the expanse of waters is frozen. Yea, He loads the cloud with moisture; He scatters His lightning cloud; and it is turned around by His guidance, so that they may do whatever He commands them on the face of the world of the earth. Whether as a whip, or for His land, or for mercy, He finds it. (Job 373-13)

Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it burst out; it came forth from the womb? When I made the clouds to clothe it, and darkness its navel-band; (Job 388-9)

Have you entered into the storehouses of the snow, or have you seen the storehouses of the hail, which I have reserved for the time of distress for the day of battle and war? How is it, the way the light is distributed; and how does the east wind spread itself on the earth? Who has cut a channel for the flood; or a way for the thunderclaps, to make it rain on the earth where no man is, a wilderness and no man in it; to satisfy the waste and desolation, and to cause the source of grass to sprout? Is there a father for the rain? Or who has given birth to the drops of dew? From whose womb comes forth the ice; and the frost of the heavens, who fathered it; the waters hidden like stone, and the face of the deep is captured? (Job 3822-30)

He binds up the waters in His thick clouds; and the cloud does not burst under them. (Job 268 )

The wind goes toward the south, and turning around to the north; the wind is going around and around. And the wind returns on its circuits. All the rivers are going to the sea; yet the sea is not full. To the place where the rivers are going, there they are returning to go again. (Ecc 16-7)

He who created the Pleiades and Orion, and turns the deep darkness into the morning, and He darkened the day into night; who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth, Jehovah is His name; (Amos 58 )

And mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. (Gen 26)

For as the rain and the snow comes down from the heavens and do not return there, except it waters the earth and make it bring forth and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater, (Isa 5510)

Judge for yourselves. Is the Koran miraculously describing the water cycle long before modern science? No. The Koran, as is the case time and time again, simply borrows from the Holy Bible, which came hundreds and even thousands of years before it.

unknownuser

Where exactly did the Ark Land?

It was proclaimed "O earth, swallow your water," and "O sky, cease." The water then subsided; the judgment was fulfilled. The ark finally rested on the hills of Judee. It was then proclaimed "The transgressors have perished."

D Actually there is no comment needed here. However, what an amazing coincidence it is that these pieces of wood were found at the mount of Judee in Ararat but none in the other regions nearby. The pieces of wood also had special symbols on them indicating that it was Noahs Ark. This is a proven fact and can be found on many websites.

I have seen no such imformation in my research on the Net in regard to Mt Judee (Judea). Firstly Mount (Hills of) Judee (Judea) is in palestine/Israel, not Turkey where Mt Ararat is.

All the finds you are talking about have been found in Mt Ararat itself which makes the story in the Bible the more accurate of the two story.

You have given no links to support this statement of yours. All the research I've dont point to Mt Ararat it self with NO reference to Mt Judee (Judea).

If you have some links to backup your claim I would like to look at them

jonny_k

Peace albion,

I have seen no such imformation in my research on the Net in regard to Mt Judee (Judea). Firstly Mount (Hills of) Judee (Judea) is in palestine/Israel, not Turkey where Mt Ararat is.

All the finds you are talking about have been found in Mt Ararat itself which makes the story in the Bible the more accurate of the two story.

You have given no links to support this statement of yours. All the research I've dont point to Mt Ararat it self with NO reference to Mt Judee (Judea).

If you have some links to backup your claim I would like to look at them

Khi- Ur confusing something here. Mount Judi, NOT Judea, is situated to the north-east of the Island of Ibn 'Umar in Kurdistan.Plz visit
http//arksearch.com/najudi.htm
http//www.islam101.com/archeology/noah_ark.html
GOD Bless!