Muhammad not mentioned in the Koran...

Tay

May peace be upon you Apple Pie,

I have no doubt that you are a bright individual. Your thoughts are always well-expressed and your wit, albeit quite nasty at times, reflects a level of experience that is certainly admirable. But intelligence alone does not bridge the gap between mind and spirit. This is the boat that you seem to keep missing.

All these debates for years on countless forums, and what has it gotten you besides sharpened debating tools and gigabytes of data on your hard drive? Have you saved any souls? Has your spirit developed? Do you follow in the footsteps of the one you claim to defend?

What do you do when you're not debating? Do you teach with love? Do you donate to charities? Do you participate any volunteer work?

I would think by now you would have realized that you're going about things the wrong way. You're wasting your talent and your time. Why not look for common denominators instead of differences? Why not bridge the gaps between the faiths instead of spreading further discord?

You told me once that you were here to learn. I've seen no evidence of this whatsoever.

Here's the bottom line, which, no matter how many exegesis' you paste, you cannot overcome

There is only one God. It requires a leap of faith and an abandonment of logic to think that God would need a trilateral approach.

But good luck in your journey anyway.

QXP
577 Say, "O People of the Book! Do not overstep the bounds of Truth in your religious beliefs. And do not follow the errant views of people who have gone astray long before, and led a great many others astray, and those who are still straying from the Even Way.

1240 "Those whom you worship and obey besides Him, are but names that you have named, you and your forefathers. Allah has revealed no authority for them. All ruling belongs to Allah alone. And there is no Judge but He. He has commanded that you serve none but Him. That is the Right Religion. But most people are not aware of this fact or disregard it in practice."

575 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a Messenger, like other Messengers before him who passed on. And his mother was a woman of truth. Both of them were human beings who had to eat food (like all other mortals). See how clearly We explain Our verses for them and note how they keep wandering in thought!

576 Say, ?Would you worship in place of Allah that which possesses no power of harm or benefit to you?? Allah it is Who is the Hearer, the Knower.

unknownuser

Greetings Tay,

I truly appreciate your comments?

Thanks for your kudos, and likewise, I appreciate your composure.

Forum debate is perhaps the best motivator for sparking investigation into deeper scriptural study.

That, in a nutshell, is why I spend copious amounts of time in ?enemy camp??as it were?

The Gospels demonstrate to us that Jesus is the great debater. He purposely ventured into areas where He was unwanted and His message was despised. His message upset many. He was utterly ruthless in His discussions with people.

His example has inspired me.

While I will never achieve anywhere close to His example, and will always remain tied to my human sinful nature; I can, however, put my talents into something that will be everlasting?

To that end?my goal is to turn Islam on its ear?by bringing forth the truths contained within my research via the internet?

As far as bringing souls to faith in the true Creator God of the Universe, as described within the pages of the Holy Bible, it is perhaps easier to bring an atheist into the fold than it is to bring a practicing Muslim.

Few people, of any faith, truly understand what the truth is?nor do they care?

You are correct regarding the common denominators between Christianity and Islam?.as both essentially share the same scriptures?Islam?s text primarily being a collection of Jewish and Christian scriptures that have been translated into Arabic?

The differences, of course, come from the interpretation/translation-effect of the scriptures?

My research, when complete, will map-out the entire Koran and show irrefutably where the Koranic concepts truly emanate from.

You can look at the Koran as basically Biblical bookends.

The bulk of the Koranic material comes from the Book of Genesis & the Book of Revelation?.with a healthy smattering of material in between.

However, 99% of Koranic material is indeed borrowed from the Holy Bible.

Hence, no one should be surprised to see Jesus proclaimed as God Almighty in both the Holy Bible as well as its imitator, the Koran?

Take care?

Tay

May peace be upon you, Apple Pie,

I can honestly say it is encouraging to hear that your motives stem from the example of Jesus. I guess the point that I did not articulate well-enough was that no matter how much proof you feel you may have compiled, the alternative that you're offering is not enticing to anyone who sees God as One, and Jesus as strictly a messenger.

This is the crux of the matter. The concept of trinity does not work except for those who've been indocrinated into believing in a trinity. There is no logical progression that leads one to think God needs a trilateral approach. Without Biblical influence, this conclusion is impossible.

You say it would be easier to bring an atheist into the fold than a Muslim. I strongly disagree, as an atheist would be more likely to accept one God, then he/she would one God manifested as three.

But that is neither here nor there. What is of utmost relevance is the fact that all your efforts have done nothing but create further discord. There was no Christian-bashing here before you came along. In fact, it was quite the opposite.

My advice, and I mean this earnestly, is to just post the research and let people draw their own conclusions. You lose favor and credibility when every post has the same ending. It announces your agenda and bores the reader. It comes off, at best, as biased research, and at worst, as proselytizing/Islam-bashing.

But that's just my opinion.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace all,

my goal is to turn Islam on its ear

Good luck with that...

As far as bringing souls to faith in the true Creator God of the Universe, as described within the pages of the Holy Bible, it is perhaps easier to bring an atheist into the fold than it is to bring a practicing Muslim.

Let's review this comment of yours two times. First, I placed bold emphasis on the most ridiculous part of this statement. It is a known fact that the Bible has bullet holes all throughout it. There are thousands of contradictions, lies, errors and inaccuracies all throughout that thing...many of which have been brought to your attention, but you dare not touch. Before inviting people to your book and claiming it to be holy, you need to find a way to work past those issues first.

I have a second comment for your statement....

As far as bringing souls to faith in the true Creator God of the Universe, as described within the pages of the Holy Bible, it is perhaps easier to bring an atheist into the fold than it is to bring a practicing Muslim.

The only people who will come to your path are the same type of people who will adopt the path of traditional Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and the like....Those who have the heart of idolatry and wish not practice the way of True Monotheism.

Few people, of any faith, truly understand what the truth isnor do they care

Yes, and this is true. However, I hope you understand that you are to be placed at number one on that list. It's very easy to place others under a microscope, but you obviously cannot focus the same lense on yourself. Truly sad.

You are correct regarding the common denominators between Christianity and Islam.as both essentially share the same scripturesIslams text primarily being a collection of Jewish and Christian scriptures that have been translated into Arabic

The common denominators stem from the fact that there is only ONE GOD!! What we call The Bible today is no longer what was revealed nor intended by He who revealed the original Scriptures.

The differences, of course, come from the interpretation/translation-effect of the scriptures

Wrong again. The differences come from the fact that The Quran is totally free of any contradictions whereas contradiction is the forte of The Bible. The Bible and The Quran have been placed under heavy Textual, Literary and Anthropological scrutiny and criticism. After all that has been uncovered and revealed, the only thing that you can do is to continue to deny that the Quran is, in fact, GOD's revealed message which is actually a matter of belief and faith. Unfortunately for you, there are even Christian Scholars who now acknowledge that The Bible is the word of man and is full of contradictions and inconsistencies.

However, 99% of Koranic material is indeed borrowed from the Holy Bible.

It's funny that the book which has done the borrowing has remained in tact as is for thousands of years, while the book that has been borrowed from has been reduced to a pornography book and full of errors and contradictions. Way to go ApplePie.....

Hence, no one should be surprised to see Jesus proclaimed as God Almighty in both the Holy Bible as well as its imitator, the Koran

Crooked indeed. My friend, there is not one, single verse that even remotely supports this statement. My gosh.... roll

unknownuser

Greetings Tay,

Thanks for sharing your comments?

Your reply revolves around a distain for the Biblical concept of a Uniplural Creator entity that transcends time itself.

Ironically, the Islamic bias that surrounds the Biblical concept of the Trinity is entirely fabricated out of misunderstanding of the Muslim book of faith.

Few Muslims care to comprehend that the Biblical material, from whence the authors of their Koran complied their opus, is also to be found in the Koran?up to and including the Triune nature of the true Biblical Creator God of the Universe.

The Koran copies-over the Biblical fact that God is indeed ONE.

The Koran also copies over the triune elements of the ONE God.

It is a shame that too many Muslims are bent on following Islam instead of their book of faith?

Take care?

unknownuser

Greetings Damon,

Thanks for sharing your comments?

ApplePie wrote
As far as bringing souls to faith in the true Creator God of the Universe, as described within the pages of the Holy Bible, it is perhaps easier to bring an atheist into the fold than it is to bring a practicing Muslim.

Let's review this comment of yours two times. First, I placed bold emphasis on the most ridiculous part of this statement. It is a known fact that the Bible has bullet holes all throughout it. There are thousands of contradictions, lies, errors and inaccuracies all throughout that thing...many of which have been brought to your attention, but you dare not touch. Before inviting people to your book and claiming it to be holy, you need to find a way to work past those issues first.

Then what does that make the Koran which is 99% Biblical material?..?

ApplePie wrote
You are correct regarding the common denominators between Christianity and Islam?.as both essentially share the same scriptures?Islam?s text primarily being a collection of Jewish and Christian scriptures that have been translated into Arabic?

The common denominators stem from the fact that there is only ONE GOD!! What we call The Bible today is no longer what was revealed nor intended by He who revealed the original Scriptures.

Then please provide us with extant manuscript evidence for your position.

You can start by taking a gander at Islamic awareness? wink

ApplePie wrote
However, 99% of Koranic material is indeed borrowed from the Holy Bible.

It's funny that the book which has done the borrowing has remained in tact as is for thousands of years, while the book that has been borrowed from has been reduced to a pornography book and full of errors and contradictions. Way to go ApplePie.....

Again?go to your favorite Islamic site?.and show us the oldest extant Koran?..

We await your reply.

ApplePie wrote
Hence, no one should be surprised to see Jesus proclaimed as God Almighty in both the Holy Bible as well as its imitator, the Koran?

Crooked indeed. My friend, there is not one, single verse that even remotely supports this statement. My gosh....

Not one, but legions?.

Sura 86 is entirely regarding Jesus.

It tells us the following

Jesus is worshiped as God
Jesus was crucified
Jesus was resurrected
Jesus judges the dead

What more could you ask for?..all nice and neat in one 17 ayah sura?

Thanks?

unknownuser

Greetings to you ApplePie,

Ironically, the Islamic bias that surrounds the Biblical concept of the Trinity is entirely fabricated out of misunderstanding of the Muslim book of faith.

Few Muslims care to comprehend that the Biblical material, from whence the authors of their Koran complied their opus, is also to be found in the Koranup to and including the Triune nature of the true Biblical Creator God of the Universe.

The Koran copies-over the Biblical fact that God is indeed ONE.

The Koran also copies over the triune elements of the ONE God.

It is a shame that too many Muslims are bent on following Islam instead of their book of faith

I personally like to think of myself as a fair, open-minded individual. I hear what you're saying. Here's what I ask of you....

Can you provide me with a couple of passages from The Quran and give me your views as to why you believe these passages point to a Tri-une element of The One GOD? What I will do is look at these passages myself and try to view them from your perspective.

If it's there, it's there. If it's not there, then it's not there. No big deal. But I do know that there are still many questions (by many people) regarding GOD using the plural term WE for Himself.

Of course, if you are willing to provide these passages, I cannot immediately get back to you because I will have to take the time to seriously and un-biasly examine them.

I think I know what you're getting at, but it is my goal to see if that picture emerges or if it makes any sense at all based on The Quran Alone.

unknownuser

Greetings ApplePie,

Let's review this comment of yours two times. First, I placed bold emphasis on the most ridiculous part of this statement. It is a known fact that the Bible has bullet holes all throughout it. There are thousands of contradictions, lies, errors and inaccuracies all throughout that thing...many of which have been brought to your attention, but you dare not touch. Before inviting people to your book and claiming it to be holy, you need to find a way to work past those issues first.

Then what does that make the Koran which is 99% Biblical material..?

You're ignoring the point. It is a worldwide known fact The Quran is totally free of contradiction and discrepency while The Bible is riddled with them. You asking the question above does nothing to dispute this fact.

Then please provide us with extant manuscript evidence for your position.

You have access to the exact same extant manuscript evidence as I do. It is not something within my reach exclusively. This way, you can acknowledge or yoursel what I said here and you cannot claim is something that I manipulated or that you have no way of verifying for yourself (because I know that you will pull that stunt).

My friend, there is not one, single verse that even remotely supports this statement. My gosh....

Not one, but legions.

Sura 86 is entirely regarding Jesus.

It tells us the following

Jesus is worshiped as God
Jesus was crucified
Jesus was resurrected
Jesus judges the dead

What more could you ask for..all nice and neat in one 17 ayah sura

ApplePie, dishonesty is a very stinky perfume. The entire Sura 86 is a small summary of the life journey beginning with it's clot existence all the way to the day of resurrection. This Sura has nothing to do With Jesus whatsoever.

unknownuser

Greetings Damon,

Thanks for your replies?

I personally like to think of myself as a fair, open-minded individual. I hear what you're saying. Here's what I ask of you....

Can you provide me with a couple of passages from The Quran and give me your views as to why you believe these passages point to a Tri-une element of The One GOD? What I will do is look at these passages myself and try to view them from your perspective.

If it's there, it's there. If it's not there, then it's not there. No big deal. But I do know that there are still many questions (by many people) regarding GOD using the plural term WE for Himself.

Of course, if you are willing to provide these passages, I cannot immediately get back to you because I will have to take the time to seriously and un-biasly examine them.

I think I know what you're getting at, but it is my goal to see if that picture emerges or if it makes any sense at all based on The Quran Alone.

Done?

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=44123#44123

ApplePie wrote
Then please provide us with extant manuscript evidence for your position.

You have access to the exact same extant manuscript evidence as I do. It is not something within my reach exclusively. This way, you can acknowledge or yoursel what I said here and you cannot claim is something that I manipulated or that you have no way of verifying for yourself (because I know that you will pull that stunt).

You sound reluctant to look for yourself?

ApplePie, dishonesty is a very stinky perfume. The entire Sura 86 is a small summary of the life journey beginning with it's clot existence all the way to the day of resurrection. This Sura has nothing to do With Jesus whatsoever.

Digest this?

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737

Thanks?

Andya_Primanda

So if God is one, then Jesus is not God. Also the Holy Spirit is not God.

Explain?

Is it so hard? One does not equal three. Jesus is not God. He's a man. A man can't be God.

Only Christians accept this illogical doctrine. Muslims and Jews can do the maths better 1 3.

Besides, I thought the premise that made the Christian concept of Jesus as God is that Jesus comes as a saviour to redeem humankind's sins? This is something we don't believe in. We don't believe in the doctrine of original sin. We don't believe in the fall of humankind. We don't carry the sins of our ancestors. We believe that Adam has been forgiven. Therefore, we don't need a saviour. Ergo, the crucifixion and death of Jesus is not important to us.

And if the Qur'an parrots Biblical material ,

Perhaps this is because I am the only one who bothers to study your book of faith in the classic Arabic in which it was penned?

Straw man. We're not Christians who rarely read their bible in the original language. Most of us here can and do read the Qur'an in its original laguage, classical Arabic. Some are native speakers. I'd take their word better than yours.

then the Bible would also be teaching strict monotheism, not trinitarianism.

Back to the audience seat.

Ironically?.the authors of the Koran get the ONE God concept from the Holy Bible.

This is quite a new status for the god allah, as this fictitious entity has its roots in pagan Arab god worship?

The authors of the Koran have simply attempted to wrap the pagan Arab god allah with the Biblical deity ascribed unto Jesus, from centuries prior.

They even copied-over the Biblical concept of the ONE God as a triune entity?

If this is true, then why did the Qur'an managed to assert that trinity is blasphemy? Surely if it only want to parrot the bible, it would endorse trinity. But no, we read the Qur'an and it said the concept of trinity is blasphemy.

So your choices are

If the Qur'an parrots the bible , then the bible does not endorse the concept of trinity.
But if the bible endorse the concept of trinity , the the Qur'an do not parrot the bible.

ps Allah is not a name. It is Arabic for 'God'. Ask Arab Christians, they use 'Allah' when they talk of 'God' in their native language. Ask Indonesian Christians, they use 'Tuhan Allah' which is a direct translation of 'Lord God'.

Tay

Peace Apple Pie,

you stated

Your reply revolves around a distain for the Biblical concept of a Uniplural Creator entity that transcends time itself.

I appreciate the psychological analysis, but I'm afraid you're way off base. I have no disdain for your faith. But I do choose, rationally, to reject the concept. God has given us the ability to reason. It makes no sense that one must ignore reason in attempting to understand the nature of God. The word "Uniplural" is a perfect example of this, as it is an oxymoron, via an invented word that combines two opposites.

Ironically, the Islamic bias that surrounds the Biblical concept of the Trinity is entirely fabricated out of misunderstanding of the Muslim book of faith.

Of course that is your auto-response, and the very bias which leads you erratically from lexicon to fantasy, which in turn, leaves the reader wondering how someone with intelligence can veer so far from simple comprehension.

What you're doing, essentially, is clouding your own vision with your prejudice. Your mission should have been for truth, Apple Pie, but it is not, as you so readily admit.

It is a shame that too many Muslims are bent on following Islam instead of their book of faith?

The shame is in the power of indoctrination. I would hope that God will forgive you for your bias, since it is no fault of your own. You were taught to ignore logic as a fundamental of your faith, and this consequently crippled your ability to think rationally. Hence, a life wasted trying to make sense of it all.

It's become clear that your crusade against Islam has nothing to do with following the footsteps of Isa, but more to do with finding something for your mind to focus on, to keep you distracted from the apparent inharmony between mind and soul.

This discord cannot be healed by attacking others, Apple Pie. You're only making it worse. Reflect.

3105 Be not like those who separated and differed after the clear proofs of Truth had come to them. For such there is an awful doom since they cause divisions instead of unity.

417 Allah graciously accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance, and then return quickly to the right conduct. Allah turns to them in Mercy. He is the Knower, the Wise.

577 Say, ?O People of the Book! Do not overstep the bounds of Truth in your religious beliefs. And do not follow the errant views of people who have gone astray long before, and led a great many others astray, and those who are still straying from the Even Way.

May you find you way,
Tay

unknownuser

Greetings ApplePie,

You have access to the exact same extant manuscript evidence as I do. It is not something within my reach exclusively. This way, you can acknowledge or yoursel what I said here and you cannot claim is something that I manipulated or that you have no way of verifying for yourself (because I know that you will pull that stunt).

You sound reluctant to look for yourself

Once again, you have chosen to ignore the point. I already have looked for myself and I am convinced of what I have come across. It is YOU who is reluctant to look. Read the statement again friend....

You have access to the exact same extant manuscript evidence as I do. It is not something within my reach exclusively. This way, you can acknowledge for yourself what I said here and you cannot claim is something that I manipulated or that you have no way of verifying for yourself

ApplePie, dishonesty is a very stinky perfume. The entire Sura 86 is a small summary of the life journey beginning with it's clot existence all the way to the day of resurrection. This Sura has nothing to do With Jesus whatsoever.

Digest this

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737

I have digested it and I am now spitting it right back out. Someone here at this forum (or maybe it's 19.org forum) has a signature quote that says It takes a Unique Mind to be able to analyze The Obvious.

As you yourself have noted, the name "Jesus" is mentioned eighty something times in The Quran. When The Quran is speaking about Jesus, then we would know it because The Quran would mention Jesus. My friend, please show me one verse in sura 86 that has the name of Jesus mentioned there. Just one.

Sura 86 is definately speaking on the concept of death, resurrection and judgement catching the wordly minded by surprise. Because of the Christian concept of Jesus coming Like a thief in the night, you wish to carry that concept from the Bible and apply it to The Quran. And now you wish to impose this concept and interpretation to sura 86. No dice!! Unless and until you can show the verse in this Sura that is mentioning Jesus, this sura will remain as it is.....a warning to mankind that The One who gave Life and maintains it will take it away from us one day and will judge as to how we have utilised this precious gift called life.

I personally like to think of myself as a fair, open-minded individual. I hear what you're saying. Here's what I ask of you....

Can you provide me with a couple of passages from The Quran and give me your views as to why you believe these passages point to a Tri-une element of The One GOD? What I will do is look at these passages myself and try to view them from your perspective.

If it's there, it's there. If it's not there, then it's not there. No big deal. But I do know that there are still many questions (by many people) regarding GOD using the plural term WE for Himself.

Of course, if you are willing to provide these passages, I cannot immediately get back to you because I will have to take the time to seriously and un-biasly examine them.

I think I know what you're getting at, but it is my goal to see if that picture emerges or if it makes any sense at all based on The Quran Alone.

Done

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=44123#44123

Okay, I have went through that thread and I was patient and open-minded about it. Again you are ignoring the obvious. I'll address this issue in a seperate post, GOD Willing, since I will have to explain a lot of things to you about it.

I'll see you then....

unknownuser

Greetings Andya Primanda,

Thanks for your reply?

Is it so hard? One does not equal three. Jesus is not God. He's a man. A man can't be God.

Your scriptures paint a different story?

Only Christians accept this illogical doctrine. Muslims and Jews can do the maths better 1 3.

You are preaching the Islamic mentality?

Perhaps the Koranic mentality is the one that you need to preach.

Besides, I thought the premise that made the Christian concept of Jesus as God is that Jesus comes as a saviour to redeem humankind's sins? This is something we don't believe in.

?We? is who?.Islam?.

We don't believe in the doctrine of original sin. We don't believe in the fall of humankind. We don't carry the sins of our ancestors. We believe that Adam has been forgiven. Therefore, we don't need a saviour.

Can you bring forth Koranic scripture to back up what you believe?.? wink

Ergo, the crucifixion and death of Jesus is not important to us.

It was to the authors who penned the Koranic text, as we know it today?

Quote
Quote
then the Bible would also be teaching strict monotheism, not trinitarianism.

Back to the audience seat.

Ironically?.the authors of the Koran get the ONE God concept from the Holy Bible.

This is quite a new status for the god allah, as this fictitious entity has its roots in pagan Arab god worship?

The authors of the Koran have simply attempted to wrap the pagan Arab god allah with the Biblical deity ascribed unto Jesus, from centuries prior.

They even copied-over the Biblical concept of the ONE God as a triune entity?

If this is true, then why did the Qur'an managed to assert that trinity is blasphemy?

Surely if it only want to parrot the bible, it would endorse trinity. But no, we read the Qur'an and it said the concept of trinity is blasphemy.

The ?blasphemy? is to take Jesus, Mary, and ?allah? as the Trinity?

This is NOT what the Trinity is?.hence, the authors of the Koran are correct in stating that this rendition is indeed a ?blasphemy??

Understand?.?

You need to read your Koran in context?.in order to understand the authors? intended messages?

So your choices are

If the Qur'an parrots the bible , then the bible does not endorse the concept of trinity.
But if the bible endorse the concept of trinity , the the Qur'an do not parrot the bible.

First of all, it is fact that the authors of the Koran parrot the Holy Bible. They said that they did. Unless, of course, you are challenging what they stated?

Secondly, we can see that the authors of the Koran tell us what the Trinity is not, in sura 5?.and then demonstrated to us what it is in other parts of the Koran?

Who would have guessed??

Thanks?

unknownuser

Greetings Damon,

Thanks for your reply?

Once again, you have chosen to ignore the point. I already have looked for myself and I am convinced of what I have come across. It is YOU who is reluctant to look. Read the statement again friend....
I wrote
You have access to the exact same extant manuscript evidence as I do. It is not something within my reach exclusively. This way, you can acknowledge for yourself what I said here and you cannot claim is something that I manipulated or that you have no way of verifying for yourself

Then we are in agreement?.there are NO extant ?original? Koran?s in existence anywhere in the entire known world?.the oldest copies are mere fragments of suras dated to a century after the supposed life and times of Islam?s ?prophet??

Hence?.since this Islamic myth has been lampooned?you might want to re-think your ?has remained in tact as is for thousands of years? pipe dream?. wink

I have digested it and I am now spitting it right back out. Someone here at this forum (or maybe it's 19.org forum) has a signature quote that says It takes a Unique Mind to be able to analyze The Obvious.

As you yourself have noted, the name "Jesus" is mentioned eighty something times in The Quran. When The Quran is speaking about Jesus, then we would know it because The Quran would mention Jesus. My friend, please show me one verse in sura 86 that has the name of Jesus mentioned there. Just one.
Sura 86 is definately speaking on the concept of death, resurrection and judgement catching the wordly minded by surprise. Because of the Christian concept of Jesus coming Like a thief in the night, you wish to carry that concept from the Bible and apply it to The Quran. And now you wish to impose this concept and interpretation to sura 86. No dice!! Unless and until you can show the verse in this Sura that is mentioning Jesus, this sura will remain as it is.....a warning to mankind that The One who gave Life and maintains it will take it away from us one day and will judge as to how we have utilised this precious gift called life.

Okay, I have went through that thread and I was patient and open-minded about it. Again you are ignoring the obvious. I'll address this issue in a seperate post, GOD Willing, since I will have to explain a lot of things to you about it.

I'll see you then....

We will be waiting?

Thanks?

shuaib

Proverbs 299 a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, no rest.

salam guys,

do you still think his goal is anything other than getting under our skins? the "seeking knowledge" excuse is obviously some bizarre ploy, since he has completely rejected any advice or knowledge imparted to him.

The only treatment for someone of that low a calibre is to completely ignore him, until he shows a shred of rational thought which in his case would begin with an apology to the Muslims here for his behavior. There are shayateen in this world who feed off of arguing and causing strife and irritation. Why continue to feed them?

2111 And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

2120 Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say to them "The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for joining in on the discussion?.

The only treatment for someone of that low a calibre is to completely ignore him, until he shows a shred of rational thought which in his case would begin with an apology to the Muslims here for his behavior. There are shayateen in this world who feed off of arguing and causing strife and irritation. Why continue to feed them?

Why not take your own advice?..? wink

Take care?

Andya_Primanda

Is it so hard? One does not equal three. Jesus is not God. He's a man. A man can't be God.

Your scriptures paint a different story?

Oh is it? Then why does it contain these verses

4171
You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son is God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say "Three." Stop (it is) best for you, but God (is) one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what (is) in the skies/space and what (is) in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God (as a) guardian/protector .

517
Those who said "That God, He is the Messiah Mary's son." had disbelieved, say "So who owns/possesses from God a thing, if He wanted that He destroys the Messiah, Mary's son, and his mother, and who (is) in the earth/Planet Earth all together? And to God (are) the skies/space and what (is) between them (B)'s ownership/kingdom , He creates what He wills/wants, and God (is) on every thing capable ."

572
Those who said "That God, He is the Messiah Mary's son," had disbelieved, and the Messiah, said "You, Israel's sons and daughters, worship God, my Lord and your Lord, that he who shares/makes partners with God, so He had forbidden on him the Paradise, and his shelter/refuge (is) the fire , and (there are) no victoriors/saviors to the unjust/oppressors."

573
Those who said "That God a third of three." had disbelieved, and there is no God except one God, and if they do not end/stop from what they say, a painful torture will touch (E) those who disbelieved from them.

The whole chapter 112
Say, "He is God, The One. God on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And none is His equal."

Only Christians accept this illogical doctrine. Muslims and Jews can do the maths better 1 3.

You are preaching the Islamic mentality?

Perhaps the Koranic mentality is the one that you need to preach.

I'll be preaching the same thing then. Even if you ask me to preach Judaic mentality it'll still be the same 1 3. God is One, not three. Jesus is not God.

Besides, I thought the premise that made the Christian concept of Jesus as God is that Jesus comes as a saviour to redeem humankind's sins? This is something we don't believe in.

?We? is who?.Islam?.

Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, everyone but Christians.

We don't believe in the doctrine of original sin. We don't believe in the fall of humankind. We don't carry the sins of our ancestors. We believe that Adam has been forgiven. Therefore, we don't need a saviour.

Can you bring forth Koranic scripture to back up what you believe?.?

With pleasure.

Adam is forgiven
237
So Adam received from his Lord words/expressions, so (He) forgave on him, that He is, He is the forgiver , the most merciful .

More on Adam, Adam's mate & Shaytan's story
2120-122
So the devil inspired and talked to him, he said "You Adam, do I guide you on to the immortality's/eternity's tree, and possession and free will/kingdom (that) does not wear out?"
So they ate from it, so their shameful genital private parts to be covered appeared to them, and they started and continued to stick on them from the Paradise's leaves, and Adam disobeyed his Lord, so he was misguided/failed.
Then His Lord chose/purified him, so He forgave on him, and guided

We do not carry the sins of others
4111
And who acquires/carries a sin/crime , so he carries it on himself, and God was/is wise/judicious.

6164
Say "Is other than God I desire as a Lord? And He is Lord of every thing, and every self does not earn/gather except on it, and no sinner/burdener carries/bears (the) load/weight (of) another, then to your Lord (is) your return, so He informs you with what you were in it differing/disagreeing ."

5338-39
No sinner/burdener bears/carries another's sin/burden. And that there is nothing to man except what he strived/endeavored.

No need for a saviour because nobody can help anyone else in the Day
2123
And fear a day/time, no self rewards/reimburses (removes) from a self a thing, and no redemption/ransom (is) to be accepted/received from it, and nor mediation benefits it, and nor they be given victory/aid.

unknownuser

Greetings Andya Primanda,

Thanks for your reply?

Apple Pie wrote
Quote
Is it so hard? One does not equal three. Jesus is not God. He's a man. A man can't be God.

Your scriptures paint a different story?

Oh is it? Then why does it contain these verses

4171
You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son is God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say "Three." Stop (it is) best for you, but God (is) one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what (is) in the skies/space and what (is) in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God (as a) guardian/protector .

517
Those who said "That God, He is the Messiah Mary's son." had disbelieved, say "So who owns/possesses from God a thing, if He wanted that He destroys the Messiah, Mary's son, and his mother, and who (is) in the earth/Planet Earth all together? And to God (are) the skies/space and what (is) between them (B)'s ownership/kingdom , He creates what He wills/wants, and God (is) on every thing capable ."

572
Those who said "That God, He is the Messiah Mary's son," had disbelieved, and the Messiah, said "You, Israel's sons and daughters, worship God, my Lord and your Lord, that he who shares/makes partners with God, so He had forbidden on him the Paradise, and his shelter/refuge (is) the fire , and (there are) no victoriors/saviors to the unjust/oppressors."

573
Those who said "That God a third of three." had disbelieved, and there is no God except one God, and if they do not end/stop from what they say, a painful torture will touch (E) those who disbelieved from them.

You did it again?

You failed to show context?

Here?let me help you out once again?

Wa-ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa ibna maryama aanta qulta lilnnasi ittakhithoonee waommiya ilahayni min dooni Allahi qala subhanaka ma yakoonu lee an aqoola ma laysa lee bihaqqin in kuntu qultuhu faqad AAalimtahu taAAlamu ma fee nafsee wala aAAlamu ma fee nafsika innaka anta AAallamu alghuyoobi

5.116 And when allah said "You Jesus Mary's son, did you say to the people 'Take me and my mother (as) two gods from other than allah?' He (Jesus) said 'Your praise/glory, (it) is not to be for me that I say what is not for me with (a) right/truth, if I was (had) said it, so You had known it, You know what (is) in my self, and I do not know what (is) in Your self, that You, You (are) all knower (of) the unseens/hidden (unknown).'"

Now?.what part of the Koranic ?three-gods? concept?Jesus, Mary, ?allah??is escaping your intellect?.? roll

The whole chapter 112
Say, "He is God, The One. God on Whom all depend. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And none is His equal."

Sura 112 is once again a Biblical confirmation that there is only One God.

Additionally, the authors who penned this text have used the Biblical gospel material and are stating that the ?god allah? of the Koran was not created, and that he does not give birth?.which is a clear knock ? off of the Book of Luke in which the Koran also states that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Quote
Quote
We don't believe in the doctrine of original sin. We don't believe in the fall of humankind. We don't carry the sins of our ancestors. We believe that Adam has been forgiven. Therefore, we don't need a saviour.

Can you bring forth Koranic scripture to back up what you believe?.?

With pleasure.

Adam is forgiven
237
So Adam received from his Lord words/expressions, so (He) forgave on him, that He is, He is the forgiver , the most merciful .

More on Adam, Adam's mate & Shaytan's story
2120-122
So the devil inspired and talked to him, he said "You Adam, do I guide you on to the immortality's/eternity's tree, and possession and free will/kingdom (that) does not wear out?"
So they ate from it, so their shameful genital private parts to be covered appeared to them, and they started and continued to stick on them from the Paradise's leaves, and Adam disobeyed his Lord, so he was misguided/failed.
Then His Lord chose/purified him, so He forgave on him, and guided

I think that you meant to say sura 20 (instead of sura 2)?. wink

We do not carry the sins of others
4111
And who acquires/carries a sin/crime , so he carries it on himself, and God was/is wise/judicious.

6164
Say "Is other than God I desire as a Lord? And He is Lord of every thing, and every self does not earn/gather except on it, and no sinner/burdener carries/bears (the) load/weight (of) another, then to your Lord (is) your return, so He informs you with what you were in it differing/disagreeing ."

5338-39
No sinner/burdener bears/carries another's sin/burden. And that there is nothing to man except what he strived/endeavored.

No need for a saviour because nobody can help anyone else in the Day
2123
And fear a day/time, no self rewards/reimburses (removes) from a self a thing, and no redemption/ransom (is) to be accepted/received from it, and nor mediation benefits it, and nor they be given victory/aid.

Perhaps you need to be briefed on the Koranic source material?

What material Adam was created from
Dust 3.59
Earth 11.61; 18.37; 22.5; 30.19; 35.11; 40.67
Loam 23.12
Nothing 19.67
Water 22.5; 23.13-14; 25.54; 40.67; 71.14; 75.37-38; 96.2
The formation of the first Human Being 7.11; 15.29; 32.9; 38.72; 40.67; 64.3; 82.7-8
The original appearance of Adam 95.4-6
Adam's choice 3.33
Adam names everything 2.30-33
Worship of Adam. Satan's Fall 2.34; 7.11; 15.28-38; 17.61; 1850; 20.116; 38.71-82
Satan's profession 4.118-119; 7.16-17; 14.22; 15.39-43; 17.62-65; 36.60-62; 38.83-84
The creation of Eve 4.1; 7.189; 30.21; 39.6; 42.11
Allah gives Adam the interdiction 2.35; 7.19
The constitution of the prohibited tree 23.20; 24.35; 95.1-2
Allah's covenant with Adam 20.115
Allah exhorts Adam 20.116-119
Seduction by Satan 7.20-21,27; 20.120
The fall of man 7.22-23; 20.121
The curse 2.36; 7.24-25; 20.55; 22.66
Adam's repentance and restitution 2.37; 7.23; 20.122
Eve's pregnancy. The fall of the first human beings 7.189
Expulsion from paradise 2.36; 7.24; 20.123

Ref Light of life

Sound familiar?..?

Looks like you need to become more cognizant of what your Koran teaches instead of what Islam is force-feeding you?.

Thanks?

Andya_Primanda

Sura 112 is once again a Biblical confirmation that there is only One God.

This is what makes Christians seem so illogical to me. You said there is only one God. But you claim that God is God, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God. What part of '1 does not equal 3' do you not understand?

Or, if you agree with our monotheism, you should know that there is only one God, and Jesus is not God.

Additionally, the authors who penned this text have used the Biblical gospel material and are stating that the ?god allah? of the Koran was not created, and that he does not give birth?.which is a clear knock ? off of the Book of Luke in which the Koran also states that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Irrelevant. What counts is surah 112 said that God has no offspring. So we don't buy the Xtian 'Jesus-Son-of-God' nonsense.

Perhaps you need to be briefed on the Koranic source material?

What material Adam was created from
Dust 3.59
Earth 11.61; 18.37; 22.5; 30.19; 35.11; 40.67
Loam 23.12
Nothing 19.67
Water 22.5; 23.13-14; 25.54; 40.67; 71.14; 75.37-38; 96.2
The formation of the first Human Being 7.11; 15.29; 32.9; 38.72; 40.67; 64.3; 82.7-8
The original appearance of Adam 95.4-6
Adam's choice 3.33
Adam names everything 2.30-33
Worship of Adam. Satan's Fall 2.34; 7.11; 15.28-38; 17.61; 1850; 20.116; 38.71-82
Satan's profession 4.118-119; 7.16-17; 14.22; 15.39-43; 17.62-65; 36.60-62; 38.83-84
The creation of Eve 4.1; 7.189; 30.21; 39.6; 42.11
Allah gives Adam the interdiction 2.35; 7.19
The constitution of the prohibited tree 23.20; 24.35; 95.1-2
Allah's covenant with Adam 20.115
Allah exhorts Adam 20.116-119
Seduction by Satan 7.20-21,27; 20.120
The fall of man 7.22-23; 20.121
The curse 2.36; 7.24-25; 20.55; 22.66
Adam's repentance and restitution 2.37; 7.23; 20.122
Eve's pregnancy. The fall of the first human beings 7.189
Expulsion from paradise 2.36; 7.24; 20.123

Ref Light of life

Sound familiar?..?

Looks like you need to become more cognizant of what your Koran teaches instead of what Islam is force-feeding you?.

Gone through every verse you quoted. I can't find any original sin there.

I am now more cognizant of what the Qur'an teaches. It teaches me 'That there is no such thing as the original sin.'

Get it? No original sin, no need for a saviour.

No need to worship Jesus.

unknownuser

Greetings Andya Primanda,

Thanks for your reply?

I trust, from your lack of a response regarding the sura 5 concept of the trinity, that you are now cognizant of the meanings that the authors who penned the text, were attempting to convey?

Apple Pie wrote
Sura 112 is once again a Biblical confirmation that there is only One God.

This is what makes Christians seem so illogical to me. You said there is only one God. But you claim that God is God, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God. What part of '1 does not equal 3' do you not understand?

It appears that you are attempting to make 1+1+1 = 1

Now try 1x1x1 = 1

Or, if you agree with our monotheism, you should know that there is only one God, and Jesus is not God.

Islamic monotheism has absolutely nothing to do with Koranic monotheism.

Koranic monotheism proclaims Jesus as God Almighty.

Quote
Additionally, the authors who penned this text have used the Biblical gospel material and are stating that the ?god allah? of the Koran was not created, and that he does not give birth?.which is a clear knock ? off of the Book of Luke in which the Koran also states that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Irrelevant. What counts is surah 112 said that God has no offspring. So we don't buy the Xtian 'Jesus-Son-of-God' nonsense.

Actually, since the authors of the Koran borrowed copious amounts of material from the Book of Luke?.then we should not at all be surprised when the Koran proclaims many of the same things as the Holy Bible does? wink

Quote
Perhaps you need to be briefed on the Koranic source material?

What material Adam was created from
Dust 3.59
Earth 11.61; 18.37; 22.5; 30.19; 35.11; 40.67
Loam 23.12
Nothing 19.67
Water 22.5; 23.13-14; 25.54; 40.67; 71.14; 75.37-38; 96.2
The formation of the first Human Being 7.11; 15.29; 32.9; 38.72; 40.67; 64.3; 82.7-8
The original appearance of Adam 95.4-6
Adam's choice 3.33
Adam names everything 2.30-33
Worship of Adam. Satan's Fall 2.34; 7.11; 15.28-38; 17.61; 1850; 20.116; 38.71-82
Satan's profession 4.118-119; 7.16-17; 14.22; 15.39-43; 17.62-65; 36.60-62; 38.83-84
The creation of Eve 4.1; 7.189; 30.21; 39.6; 42.11
Allah gives Adam the interdiction 2.35; 7.19
The constitution of the prohibited tree 23.20; 24.35; 95.1-2
Allah's covenant with Adam 20.115
Allah exhorts Adam 20.116-119
Seduction by Satan 7.20-21,27; 20.120
The fall of man 7.22-23; 20.121
The curse 2.36; 7.24-25; 20.55; 22.66
Adam's repentance and restitution 2.37; 7.23; 20.122
Eve's pregnancy. The fall of the first human beings 7.189
Expulsion from paradise 2.36; 7.24; 20.123

Ref Light of life

Sound familiar?..?

Looks like you need to become more cognizant of what your Koran teaches instead of what Islam is force-feeding you?.

Gone through every verse you quoted. I can't find any original sin there.

I am now more cognizant of what the Qur'an teaches. It teaches me 'That there is no such thing as the original sin.'

Get it? No original sin, no need for a saviour.

No need to worship Jesus.

Let?s quickly review your Islamic-based claims?

You now realize that the Koranic concept of the ?trinity? was to denounce the false claim that Jesus, Mary, and ?allah? where the ?third of three??hence paving the way for the Koran to correctly proclaim other elements of the Biblical Trinity?
You claimed ?We don't believe in the fall of humankind.? However, I showed you several ayahs from your Koran that clearly show the fall of mankind?.same as its source, the Holy Bible?
You claimed ?We don't believe in the doctrine of original sin.? However, it is clear that the Adamic story has its roots in the Book of Genesis, where it is clear that Adam sinned and all offspring are sinners. Additionally, the zaboor proclaims that we are born into sin.
You claimed ?No need to worship Jesus.? However, sura 86 states that Jesus is God, and that He is worshiped as God.

Hence?.if you are denying these things, then you are calling into question the authors of the Koran?

What?s it going to be??Islam?..or your book of faith?..?

Thanks?