Women as sex objects ..
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.....parts of the world in the name of "freedom" or "liberty" or perhaps "sexual poison". What an "evolution"??? Swords of the past, bombs of the present and Nuclear Automated Techonology of the near future.
FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY not important to you?
Don't you like the FREEDOM to be what YOU want to be instead of people telling you WHAT TO BE?What does NUCLEAR techonology to do with FREEDOM TO SPEAK YOUR MIND and YOUR PERSONAL LIBERTY to SPEAK YOUR MIND?
Are you getting sick of FREEDOM? -)
Regards,
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Salaams tanveer,
ALYATAMA Al-nisa?The widows/devorcees/singles.p624-qd.
Alyatama ?The Orphans.
2220, 42, 43, 46 and 410.Alyateem ? The orphan.
6152, 1734, 8017, 939,1072.Sorry but (i believe) the ayat is talking about the widows/single/devorcess in this case who have lost the support (husband).
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA then Marry (Al-nisa)women of your choice, Two?s or three?s or four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Look at the context of the ayah to see what hardship Allah is talking about please.Its simple if you cannot handle more then one wife ? if its going to be hard then stick to one only.
And the maximum number is 4 ,and not a 100, but if it was the other way around marrying off then indeed a 100 or 200 wouldn?t make a difference as it is being done in the world where 100 or 200 people get married in many countries .You said
?When Allah lays down his limits only He knows what is the best number, because He has created us and only He knows what is best for us. In the ayat ordaining 100 lashes for adultery, why "100", why not "50" or "150" or "200" or "175" ????This is my view though and no doubt you must check yours ? think.
God Bless.
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Salaamun alaikum mz357,
ALYATAMA Al-nisa?The widows/devorcees/singles.p624-qd.
Alyatama ?The Orphans.
2220, 42, 43, 46 and 410.Alyateem ? The orphan.
6152, 1734, 8017, 939,1072.Sorry but (i believe) the ayat is talking about the widows/single/devorcess in this case who have lost the support (husband).
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA then Marry (Al-nisa)women of your choice, Two?s or three?s or four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Look at the context of the ayah to see what hardship Allah is talking about please.Its simple if you cannot handle more then one wife ? if its going to be hard then stick to one only.
43 And give the orphans their money, and do not replace the good with the bad, and do not consume their money to your money; for truly it is a great sin!
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the women (orphans) who have agreed with you to by twos, by threes and by fours. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.Original Text 44
If you see the original text, the word "orphans" (alyatama) is used separate from the word "women" (alnisa) with preposition "min" in between clearly meaning Allah is talking about the orphans, and then the orphans from the women. The original text does not say "alyatama alnisa" but "alyatama...............min alnisa". Also the context of ayat before and after clearly shows that Allah is talking about orphans, and not widowed women.
And the maximum number is 4 ,and not a 100, but if it was the other way around marrying off then indeed a 100 or 200 wouldn?t make a difference as it is being done in the world where 100 or 200 people get married in many countries.
We cannot question Allah's limits. Allah knows best that we should marry the women orphans off in fours at the maximum, and we should accept Allah's limits. Probably, if one marries off more than 4 women orphans at a time it will be much more hardship.
God bless,
Tanveer
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Salaams Br.Tanveer,
I said
ALYATAMA Al-nisa?The widows/devorcees/singles.p624-qd.
Alyatama ?The Orphans.
2220, 42, 43, 46 and 410.Alyateem ? The orphan.
6152, 1734, 8017, 939,1072.Sorry but the ayat is talking about the widows in this case who have lost the support (husband).
004.001
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you) for Allah ever watches over you.
004.002
To Alyatama/widows restore their property , not substitute (your) worthless things for (their) good ones; and devour not their substance (by mixing it up) with your own. For this is indeed a great sin.
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry women of your choice, Two?s , three?s , four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
004.004
And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, Take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.Look at the context of the ayah to see who is Allah talking about and what hardship Allah is talking about please.Its simple if you cannot handle more then one wife ? if its going to be hard then stick to one only.
And the maximum number is 4 ,and not a 100, but if it was the other way around marrying off then indeed a 100 or 200 wouldn?t make a difference as it is being done in the world where 100 or 200 people get married in many countries .
The next section is about the orphan children
004.005
To those weak of understanding Make not over your property, which Allah hath made a means of support for you, but feed and clothe them therewith, and speak to them words of kindness and justice.
004.006
Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.You said
"43 And give the orphans their money, and do not replace the good with the bad, and do not consume their money to your money; for truly it is a great sin!
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the women (orphans) who have agreed with you to by twos, by threes and by fours. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.Original Text 44
If you see the original text, the word "orphans" (alyatama) is used separate from the word "women" (alnisa) with preposition "min" in between clearly meaning Allah is talking about the orphans, and then the orphans from the women. The original text does not say "alyatama alnisa" but "alyatama...............min alnisa". Also the context of ayat before and after clearly shows that Allah is talking about orphans, and not widowed women.
Quote
And the maximum number is 4 ,and not a 100, but if it was the other way around marrying off then indeed a 100 or 200 wouldn?t make a difference as it is being done in the world where 100 or 200 people get married in many countries.We cannot question Allah's limits. Allah knows best that we should marry the women orphans off in fours at the maximum, and we should accept Allah's limits. Probably, if one marries off more than 4 women orphans at a time it will be much more hardship. "
Rather then our own emotional beliefs i wonder if the people here would look to the two of these quotes and Honestly with hand on their hearts say which makes sense from the english language point of view - Thanks.
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peace to all,
I just dont understand one thing, why on earth a man has to marry a girl just to help ??? Cant we help in any other way...??? Did we come to this world with the purpose to get married ?? Why does we always create a scene as women always need a husband as support ?? OR else what ? Are girls helpless without a man ?
Why do we always try to show that guys are doing a great favore for girls by supporting them??? Doesnt this give the impression that girls are at guys mercy ?
These are very fundamental questions which we should ask ourselves even before trying to understand this verse....
peace
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Salaams shams,
we have to look at this from the point of of some 1400 years ago what was this ayah about then - by looking at the position of the ladies of that time -i think.
But obviously lessons of that time must be aplicable now too.
Gods Blessings.
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Salaamun alaikum mz357, Shamsul Arefin,
004.002
To Alyatama/widows restore their property , not substitute (your) worthless things for (their) good ones; and devour not their substance (by mixing it up) with your own. For this is indeed a great sin.
004.003The ayat in question does not say "alyatama alnisa" but says "alyatama", meaning orphans (male or female), not widows.
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry women of your choice, Two?s , three?s , four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Again, this ayat does not say "alyatama alnisa", but says "alyatama...........min alnisa", meaning orphans from the women, not widows. Here Allah is describing only those orphans who are women.
004.004
And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, Take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.This is the continuation of the above verse ( and........) and Allah is addressing the same women orphans here that were identified in 43. In 45 Allah goes back to discussing both the male and female orphans.
Hope that clarifies.
I just dont understand one thing, why on earth a man has to marry a girl just to help ??? Cant we help in any other way...??? Did we come to this world with the purpose to get married ?? Why does we always create a scene as women always need a husband as support ?? OR else what ? Are girls helpless without a man ?
Man does not have to marry a girl just to help. That idea came from the mistranslation of 43, where clearly Allah is talking about "MARRYING OFF the women orphans" if the guardian of the women orphans cannot deal with them fairly and to avoid financial hardship, and not "MARRY the women orphans" as the translators deliberately mistranslate. The words used are "in twos, threes or fours" indicating MARRY OFF, and not the mistranslated "two, three, or four". Have you ever heard of one person marrying four women at the same time (which "fours" implies) as a common practice?. The only thing that makes sense is MARRY OFF four women to four other men at the same time.
Regards,
Tanveer
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mz357 wrote
we have to look at this from the point of of some 1400 years ago what was this ayah about then - by looking at the position of the ladies of that time -i think.
But obviously lessons of that time must be aplicable now too.
Peace be upon you my friend. We are discussing the Furqan here. Not some story according to Tom, Dick and harry where it will relate only to a specific time. No worries brother but Quran is absolute & Final.
I just dont understand one thing, why on earth a man has to marry a girl just to help ??? Cant we help in any other way...??? Did we come to this world with the purpose to get married ?? Why does we always create a scene as women always need a husband as support ?? OR else what ? Are girls helpless without a man ?
Correct.
Men and women, Men and Women over and over again. We are equal. The quran says men and women are Auliya of each other (9.71).
Lets look at these a little clearly shall we. Just forget everything you have ever known about this subject for a moment. They say "You must empty the tea cup before you pour". La ilaha Illallah.
No deity but god. No divinity. Only god himself. Quran is our only trusted source protected by the teacher himself. God.(43) And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the women (orphans) who have agreed with you to by twos, by threes and by fours. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.
Some may even argue that "It does not say 1, 2, 3 or 4. Quran says 2's 3's and 4's. Imagine if this is not marry off and really means marry then you can marry four at a time???
Marry off. What does it mean. Is it just organize a meeting between a male and a female and say "you are married. Now off with you". in this case as many say, 2's, 4's or 100's do not matter. its no big deal.
Quran is telling you to take care of the orphans. Marry off is organize their marriage. Its not easy. You have to find right partners. It costs you. maybe you might have to build something for them to live in. It depends on situation. In the case of a Tsunami that affected our country and you take some orphans to live with you? This is how you take care of them. If it is too much of a burden marry the women off.
But you have to be fair. All must be treated equally. You organize a marriage for four but in your heart you have a favourite who you love more than the rest. we are human! If you do not have what it takes (Money, resources) you must still be impartial. If you think you cannot then marry off one by one. Is not that fair.
These orphans could be any ones man. It could be your brothers."Right hand possess" does not just mean what you possess. Then it will just say "Possess". Why??? Right hand possess means within your strong hands grasp. What you have a hold of. What you have control of. What you can manage. People working under you.
You decide.
Please teach me.
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Salaams tanveer,shohrab,
ALYATAMA Al-nisa?The widows/devorcees/singles.p624-qd.
Alyatama ?The Orphans.
2220, 42, 43, 46 and 410.Alyateem ? The orphan.
6152, 1734, 8017, 939,1072.Sorry but the ayat is talking about the widows in this case who have lost the support (husband).
004.001
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you) for Allah ever watches over you.Here The God is telling us something how important ,and the relationship between a man and a woman.
004.002
To Alyatama/widows restore their property , not substitute (your) worthless things for (their) good ones; and devour not their substance (by mixing it up) with your own. For this is indeed a great sin.Now he is telling us not to take advantage be fare to these woman man's partners for life.
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry women of your choice, Two?s , three?s , four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Now he is showing us the way so the women arn't taken advantage of.But if we arn't capable of this method then don' try this.
(If you may recall in those times a lot of widows after wars!)004.004
And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, Take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.If chose this method give them their rights.
Look at the context of the ayah to see who is Allah talking about and what hardship Allah is talking about please.Its simple if you cannot handle more then one wife ? if its going to be hard then stick to one only.
And the maximum number is 4 ,and not a 100, but if it was the other way around marrying off then indeed a 100 or 200 wouldn?t make a difference as it is being done in the world where 100 or 200 people get married in many countries .The next section is about the orphan children where they are tested before marreing them off or what ever else.
004.005
To those weak of understanding Make not over your property, which Allah hath made a means of support for you, but feed and clothe them therewith, and speak to them words of kindness and justice.
004.006
Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.God Bless.
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Sorry but the ayat is talking about the widows in this case who have lost the support (husband).
004.001
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you) for Allah ever watches over you.Here The God is telling us something how important ,and the relationship between a man and a woman.
The arguments here are Does it say Marry or Marry off. Even if it is a Widow???
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry women of your choice, Two?s , three?s , four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Now he is showing us the way so the women arn't taken advantage of.But if we arn't capable of this method then don' try this.
(If you may recall in those times a lot of widows after wars!)Are saying again that the Furqan was given to specifically "Those Times"?And also tell me what is the kind thing to do. Marry four widows or give them in marriage. What do you think the Furqan is advicing us to do here.
004.004
And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, Take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.If chose this method give them their rights.
Look at the context of the ayah to see who is Allah talking about and what hardship Allah is talking about please.Its simple if you cannot handle more then one wife ? if its going to be hard then stick to one only.
And the maximum number is 4 ,and not a 100, but if it was the other way around marrying off then indeed a 100 or 200 wouldn?t make a difference as it is being done in the world where 100 or 200 people get married in many countries .- dower when you are marrying some one is law. it is not a free gift. the meaning is different. Look at it from a different angle man.
- It does not say maximum four in that sense. It says 2's 3's and 4's not 2, 3 or 4 which gives a total different meaning. 2's means two at a time. 4's means 4 at a time. It does not limit you to four.
- This is exactly why marrying off you can do 4 at a time and not Marry four people at a time.
Did you read this part
Some may even argue that "It does not say 1, 2, 3 or 4. Quran says 2's 3's and 4's. Imagine if this is not marry off and really means marry then you can marry four at a time???
Did you read this part brother. Please read it and give me logical explanations. I am grateful for your arguments.
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Salaams Br.
Sorry but you do need schooling again,
you said
2. It does not say maximum four in that sense. It says 2's 3's and 4's not 2, 3 or 4 which gives a total different meaning. 2's means two at a time. 4's means 4 at a time. It does not limit you to four.This is what the quran is saying
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry women of your choice, Two?s , three?s , four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.If and when you speak to a number of people ,in this case by the way Allah is speaking to the mankind it makes perfect sense to say
"O people you may marry women 2's ,3's 4's --e.t.c"
Check it with an english Grammer person.
or better still change it to the following to prevent prejudice by the monogomists and ask whether it makes any sense.
?O mankind you may purchase houses 2?s , 3?s , 4?s but if you can only manage one
then one only?But last word please don't mistranslate the parts of the quran to your own believes or Allah will punish those who do that,
Salaams.
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Cool man. Its belief about poligamy. What I have realised is that we have been like this for a long time and are not willing to change the view point. I may be wrong but I still do not have enough as your explation is good but does not argue my point.
Peace brother. Lets take it as a learning session.
Shohorab
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Dear Mz357
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry women of your choice, Two?s , three?s , four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.On what basis do you say this says Widows. Dont just say this says widows but tell us on what basis.
Tanveer saidThe ayat in question does not say "alyatama alnisa" but says "alyatama", meaning orphans (male or female), not widows.
mz357 wrote
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry women of your choice, Two?s , three?s , four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Again, this ayat does not say "alyatama alnisa", but says "alyatama...........min alnisa", meaning orphans from the women, not widows. Here Allah is describing only those orphans who are women.
If you are disputing what Tanweer said above please give logical answers and facts rather than saying "SOrry but".
You asked
Either Marry off the women or what your Right hands posseses, Why marry off what you posses? So it isn?t marry off women neither.
I said
"Right hand possess" does not just mean what you possess. Then it will just say "Possess". Why??? Right hand possess means within your strong hands grasp. What you have a hold of. What you have control of. What you can manage. People working under you.
Prove me wrong please but tell me on what basis.
YOu said
you said
2. It does not say maximum four in that sense. It says 2's 3's and 4's not 2, 3 or 4 which gives a total different meaning. 2's means two at a time. 4's means 4 at a time. It does not limit you to four.This is what the quran is saying
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry women of your choice, Two?s , three?s , four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.If and when you speak to a number of people ,in this case by the way Allah is speaking to the mankind it makes perfect sense to say
"O people you may marry women 2's ,3's 4's --e.t.c"
Check it with an english Grammer person.
You say we must pick widows of our choice and marry them as we please. Then why would god stress that women and men are equal in many places in the Quran. The verse does not say "You may".
And I did take your godly advice and asked "English grammer person". My wife who is an english graduate and is trinity qualified in Speach and drama and also Mrs. Holsinger who is a world renown english speach and drama "Person" included.
YOU ARE WRONG. 2's means two's. Not two.
or better still change it to the following to prevent prejudice by the monogomists and ask whether it makes any sense.
Thus you accept that you are a prejudiced poligamyst.
But last word please don't mistranslate the parts of the quran to your own believes or Allah will punish those who do that
It was not me who translated it brother. I am only a believer. And about Allahs punishment to me, If you can convince me properly I will repent my mistakes. I am sure Allah will forgive me.
You said
Sorry but you do need schooling again
And brother every body needs schooling.
God is the teacher of the Quran .
?The Most Beneficent. Has taught the Qur'?n. (551-2))Have you (O Muhammad) seen him who has taken as his il?h his own ego (desire or lust)? Would you then be a Wak?l (guardian) over him? (2543).
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Salaam Br.
You said
?On what basis do you say this says Widows. Don?t just say this says widows but tell us on what basis.?The word yatama comes from the root Alif ,Ye,Mim.
And can present a man without a wife, a woman without a husband or even children without a parent.
See Page 625 quranic dictionary, and lanes page 137-for a lot more clarification.
To see what Allah has said who he is referring to you have to look at the context whether children or women are the prime people Allah is referring to
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry WOMEN of your choice, Two?s, three?s, four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.You even a blind person can see who Allah is talking about.
And in the following ayah?s you can again see who Allah is referring to from the contexts
004.005
TO THOSE WEAK of understanding make not over your property, which Allah hath made a means of support for you, BUT FEED AND CLOTHE them therewith, and speak to them words of kindness and justice?
004.006
Make trial of orphans UNTIL THEY REACH THE AGE OF MARRIAGE; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.YOU ARE WRONG. 2's means two's. Not two.
2?S DOES MEAN TWO?S WHEN DID I SAY IT DOESN?T?
You said ?Thus you accept that you are a prejudiced poligamyst.?
No I don?t but I do accept you are an ass for calling me thus
Salaams.
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And can present a man without a wife, a woman without a husband or even children without a parent.
See Page 625 quranic dictionary, and lanes page 137-for a lot more clarification.
To see what Allah has said who he is referring to you have to look at the context whether children or women are the prime people Allah is referring to
- See one thing is you always refer to orphans as children. Why cannot be there an often who grow up to be of maritable age or some one who was orphaned at maritable age.
- When an orphan grows up to maritable age it does not mean they are not orphans any more.
- You basing the Widow/Orphan argument on the translation argument of Marry and Marry off which has to cleared.
2?S DOES MEAN TWO?S WHEN DID I SAY IT DOESN?T?
Twos means two at time brother. Not upto 2.
I was just being sarcastic back as you were to me.
I apologise.Jazzak Allah. Wassalam.
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Salaams Br.
You said
Twos means two at time brother. Not upto 2.Lets look at the ayah of what it is saying to do with numbering
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry WOMEN of your choice, Two?s, three?s, four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.?O MANKIND? ? Talking to a lot of individual , or plurality of people.
But its telling each of them something whilst talking to the whole lot of them.
You can marry women of your choice two?s,three?s fours???..
This is being told to each member of mankind?
BUT NOTE THIS IS NOT AN EVRYDAY EVENT - IT I BELIEVE WAS ACCEPTABLE WHEN THERE WERE A LOT OF FEMALES , WHEREASE THE MALES -A LOT OF THEM PERISHED IN THE FIGHTING.So if it is applicable now or not is another quistion-i think.
However if I am wrong may Allah give me the understanding
But after careful study of this , I have concluded the above whether brothers here accept it or not , thats their bit.
The condition to test them if they are of marriageable age comes in ayah 46 , i.e. 3 ayate after your telling to marry them off, How come? The condition should come first if the first 3 ayah's ar talking about the orphans.
Lets see someone elses view- whom I honestly respect very much without naming them,This is his view
?I believe that although "ankehoo" can be interpreted as "marry" or "marry-off", I believe that "marry" is more appropriate. The "marry-off"
interpretation fails to explain the switch from ORPHANS to WOMEN in 43.A verse that perhaps can make it clear that there are two entities "yatama" and women and that "yatama" belong to "women" (i.e. the women are widows and the "yatama" are either their biological or adopted
Children) is verse 41274.127 "And they ask you for an opinion/clarification in the WOMEN, say
?The God decrees/clarifies concerning
(1) Them (F) and what is read/recited on you in the book concerning the ORPHANS (F and M) OF THE WOMEN (F) that you did not give them (F) what was written/dictated to them (F) and you desire that you marry them (F), and
(2) the weakened from the children (F and M), and that you take care of the orphans (F and M) with the just/equitable, and what you make/do from goodness, so that The God was/is with it knowledgeable."God Bless All.
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Salaamun alaikum mz357 and all,
PLEASE READ ALL OF THE FOLLOWING POST VERY CAREFULLY
Even if 44 is talking about orphaned women meaning widows, still you cannot say that the ayat is talking about "marry them" or "marry them off" based only on that information. To find out whether it means marry or marry off we have to look at the full ayat and the whole Al-Quran. There are three proofs that it means "marry them off" and not "marry them".
PROOF NUMBER 1
Firstly 44 says "by two's, three's, and four's", meaning in groups of two, three or four
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then ?Marry off the women (orphans) who have agreed with you by two's by three's and by four's!? But if you fear that you will be unfair then only by one or what your right hand possessed, as this is better than getting into hardship.
No person normally marries 2 or 3 or 4 women in a group. However you can marry off groups of 2 or 3 or 4 women to 2 or 3 or 4 other men. The ayat is addressed to mankind meaning that it is addressed to all of us telling us what to do if any of us are in the situation of dealing with orphaned women or widows.
PROOF NUMBER 2
Secondly the word used for DOWERY in Al-Quran, implying that you have to marry, is always "UJURAHUNNA" and not "SADUQATIHINNA" which is used in 45 meaning INHERITANCE and not dowry, therefore clearly meaning MARRY OFF and not marry in 44.
45 And give the women their INHERITANCE willingly, and if they remit any of it to you of their own will, then you may take it with good feelings.
Waatoo alnnisaa SADUQATIHINNA nihlatan fa-in tibna lakum AAan shay-in minhu nafsan fakuloohu hanee-an maree-an
If Allah meant in 44 for us to marry the widows He would have used the word "UJURAHUNNA" in 45 meaning give them their dowry. However Allah uses the word "SADUQATIHINNA" for what we are supposed to give to the widows/orphaned women cearly meaning we are to MARRY THEM OFF and give them their INHERITANCE. Wherever Allah is talking about MARRY He uses the word "UJURAHUNNA" meaning dowry as in the following ayat
426 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the believing independent women, then from the still dependant believing young women. God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their DOWRY in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers.
..................... fainkihoohunna bi-ithni ahlihinna waatoohunna UJURAHUNNA bialmaAAroofi muhsanatin ghayra masafihatin wala muttakhithati akhdanin fa-itha ohsinna fa-in atayna bifahishatin faAAalayhinna nisfu ma AAala almuhsanati mina alAAathabi
57 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent from the believing women, and the independent from the people of the Scripture before you, if you have given them their DOWRY, protected, chaste, and not seeking to take lovers.
..................... allatheena ootoo alkitaba min qablikum itha ataytumoohunna UJURAHUNNA muhsineena ghayra musafiheena wala muttakhithee akhdanin
3351 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their DOWRY (UJURAHUNNA)
6011 And there is no sin upon you to marry them, if you have paid their DOWRY (UJURAHUNNA) to them
?Ujurahunna? meaning ?their dowers? is consistently and exclusively used in the Quran for what a man gives a woman as a marriage portion in a normal marriage. This textual consistency leave one in no doubt that ?Saduqatihina? in verse 45 does not carry the meaning ?their dowers" but means "their inheritance". This is proved when we look at the context from 41 to 413, In this whole first part of chapter 4, Allah is talking about "inheritance".
PROOF NUMBER 3
Thirdly, in other places in Al-Quran Allah gives rules that clearly imply that a man can marry only one woman at a time. If you believe that 44 means marry more than one at a time then that clearly contradicts with all the other ayat. There is no word "except" in 44 implying that this ayat is the exception to the general rules in Al-Quran that clearly imply marry only one. Wrong meaning always leads to contradiction of ayat. Let us look at the other pertinent ayat in Al-Quran which give us the other rules
RULE #1 MARRY OFF THE SINGLE AMONG YOU
2433 And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
?Marry off those who are single among you..........? we are commanded by God to marry off the singles within the society. Marrying off the un-married means exactly what it says. Who do we marry off the unmarried to? If we marry them off to other ?married? people, then we are marrying off the ?unmarried? and the ?married? as well, so this causes a contradiction. Therefore, we can only marry off the ?unmarried? to other ?unmarried? men or women. Once any of these men or women has become married, they can?t be included by this verse anymore. So this ayat clearly shows that a man can marry only one woman.
RULE #2 DIVORCE MUST TAKE PLACE BEFORE ONE MAN MARRIES ANOTHER WOMAN
421 And if you wish to replace one wife instead of another, and you have given one of them a large amount, then do not take anything from it.
Replacing one wife instead of another means there is a pre-requisite of divorce before another marriage takes place.
When a married ?Muslim? marries a second wife, he would have broken the Quranic Rule#1 because he is already married and he also would have broken Rule#2 because he did not take a wife instead of another (divorce then marriage).
RULES OF INHERITANCE
Also if you study the ayat that give the rules of inheritance, nowhere is it mentioned how to divide the inheritance among two or more wives if the husband dies. Following are the ayat
48 For the men is a portion from what the parents and the relatives left behind, and for the women is a portion from what the parents and relatives left behind, be it little or much; a forced portion.
49 And if the distribution is attended by the relatives and the orphans and the needy, then you shall give them part of it and say to them a kind saying.
410 And what if it was them who had left behind them a weak progeny, would they not be concerned for them? Let them revere God and let them say what is appropriate.
411 Those who consume the money of the orphans illicitly, in fact they are consuming fire in their bellies, and they will endure the Blaze.
412 God directs you regarding the inheritance of your children "To the male shall be as that given to two females. If they are only females and more than two, then they will have two thirds of what is inherited. And if there is only one female, then she will have one half, and to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children. If he has no children and his parents are the heirs, then to his mother is one third; if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth. All after a will is carried through or a debt. Your parents and your children, you do not know which is closer to you in benefit, a directive from God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise."
413 And for you is half of what your wives leave behind if they have no children; but if they have a child then to you is one quarter of what they leave behind. All after a will is carried through or a debt. And to them is one quarter of what you leave behind if you have no child; but if you have a child then to them is one eighth of what you leave behind. All after a will is carried through or a debt. And if a man or a woman has no one, but has a brother or sister, then to each one of them is one sixth, but if they are more than this then they are to share in one third. All after a will is carried through or a debt, which does not cause harm. A directive from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate.
414 These are God's limits, and whoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit him to gardens with rivers flowing beneath, eternally abiding therein. This is the greatest victory.God is never Forgetful. In the above inheritance verses, there no mention that if a man has two wives/spouses or more, they share a quarter or any other portion. The portion of the daughters if there are two or more (and no sons) is two-thirds (412), after legacies or debts. When there is no ascendants or descendants, the brothers and sisters share in a third if they are more than two, after legacies or debts. If there are no children, the spouse inherits the quarter of the husband's inheritance, after legacies or debts (413). Verse 413 only makes concise perfect sense when there is no polygamy, otherwise if a man has 4 wives, what will each wife get after legacies or debts? DID THE GOD FORGET THIS SITUATION????
Now let us examine 4127
4127 And they seek a ruling regarding the women, Say "God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Scripture regarding the orphaned women/widows whom you wish to marry off, but have not given them what was decreed for them; as well as the weak from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality." Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.
The only other place in the Scripture regarding ruling about orphaned women/widows is 44 and 45. The above ayat is saying ".....but have not given them what was decreed for them...." What was decreed in 45? it was "SADUQATIHINNA" meaning "INHERITANCE" and not "UJURAHUNNA" meaning "DOWRY". So in 4127 also Allah is clearly talking about MARRYING OFF the orphaned women/widows because He is alluding to their INHERITANCE and not DOWRY.
All of the above arguements abundantly prove that the only way we can have consistency throughout Al-Quran without any contradiction is to take the meaning of "MARRY OFF" in 44 and 4127 and not "MARRY".
For further details please see the following article
http//www.geocities.com/yaseen_q/polygamy.html
Regards,
Tanveer
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then Marry WOMEN of your choice,
What happened to women's choice ? The verse sounds very much sexist if its translated like that.
peace
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Salaamun alaikum,
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then Marry WOMEN of your choice,What happened to women's choice ? The verse sounds very much sexist if its translated like that.
Brother Shams you look at the mistranslation of the verse and say it does not make sense. Of course the wrong meaning will not make sense. The correct meaning is as follows
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the orphaned women/widows who have agreed with you to by two, by three and by four. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.
Original arabic ............ ............
44 ......."ma taba lakum"....... This is taken as "who has become good to you" or "who are lawful to you" or "of your choice". It can be proved that these interpretations are against the Quran and create contradiction. The women in question are fully qualified from the Quran and do not need an additional attribute. The Quran is its own dictionary. Please note that the verb "taba" is in the past tense as is in 45 (fa-in tibna lakum AAan shay-in minhu nafsan) though there is a subtle difference. In 45, these women are giving a part of what they are entitled to (saduqatihinna) of their own accord. In 44, they are also giving something but not physical They are giving their consent to the idea of marriage. "ma taba lakum" means to "who have agreed with you" (that they be married off). It could also be rendered as "who happily have consented with you" (that they be married off).
Please read my previous post on the meaning "marry off".
Regards,
Tanveer