Women as sex objects ..
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bro tanveer,
Its not that I dont understand ur point of view. Moreover I kinda agree with ur understanding. I am just trying to rais some very basic questions which relates to the previous understanding...
peace
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Salaams Br.Tanveermd,
you said
Firstly 44 says "by two's, three's, and four's", meaning in groups of two, three or fourIt doesn?t say that,but does say
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry WOMEN of your choice, Two?s, three?s, four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Here to me it clearly means up to two,up to three,up to four. As Allah with his infinite knowledge is speaking to a crowd and had he been speaking to a single person then you would indeed be right .
Your misunderstanding here
According to Quranic Dictinary SADUQATIHINNA, UJURAHUNNA both mean dowry see pages 310 and 11 respectively.
According to Lanes see pages 1667 and 24 respectively.Thanks.
Bro. you are mistranslating
Not you or anyone has a right to marry off anybody without their consent but you no doubt have the right to marry when and if you want.
And to me the remainder of your post is easily undone just as here with viable proofs .
No offence but what you are trying your level best to do change certain commands to fit your belief is beyond anyone.
Sorry if I spoilt your tonight.
And God willing i will go through the remainder of your post if you like it.
My Salaams.
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Salaamun alaikum mz357
you said
Firstly 44 says "by two's, three's, and four's", meaning in groups of two, three or fourIt doesn?t say that,but does say
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry WOMEN of your choice, Two?s, three?s, four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Here to me it clearly means up to two,up to three,up to four. As Allah with his infinite knowledge is speaking to a crowd and had he been speaking to a single person then you would indeed be right .
Nowhere does it say UPTO 2, UPTO 3, UPTO 4. Two's, three's, four's clearly means groups of 2, 3, or 4. Allah addressing mankind means He is telling ANY OF US what to do in this situation, when ANY OF US has widows under one's care. It still does not change the meaning of two's, three's, four's, it still means groups of 2, 3, or 4 and not UPTO 2, 3, 4.
Your misunderstanding here
According to Quranic Dictinary SADUQATIHINNA, UJURAHUNNA both mean dowry see pages 310 and 11 respectively.
According to Lanes see pages 1667 and 24 respectively.Thanks.
The meaning of a word in Al-Quran is defined by how it is used in Al-Quran. EVERYWHERE where Allah talks about marrying someone He uses UJURAHUNNA to mean dowry. Dictionary can have both words meaning the same but we have to see how Al-Quran uses the words and derive the meaning according to context. If you read 41 to 413 the context is clearly INHERITANCE
Let us look at the overall picture of verses 44-7 in relation to the verses before 42-3 and the verses 48 and onwards from the topic in question. I put emphasis on "inheritance" or "dowry" depending on the verse and the scenario
Scenario1 Marrying off and "saduqatihinna"= orphaned women?s inheritance
42 (humanity origins)
43 (inheritance)
44 (Marrying off)
45 (inheritance)
46 (inheritance)
47 (inheritance)
48 onwards (inheritance)Scenario2 Marrying and "saduqatihinna"=dowry
42 (humanity origins)
43 (inheritance)
44 (Marrying)
45 (dowry)
46 (inheritance)
47 (inheritance)
48 onwards (inheritance)The odd one out can easily be spotted.
When "saduqatihinna" is taken as inheritance (as it should), there is consistency of topics in verses 43-7 and the following verses (from 48 ). The audience and its role in verses 43-7 is also the same; that is Carers responsible for the welfare and the financial affairs of the orphans. However when the meanings ?marry? and ?dowers? are taken, we find the audience switches from carers in 43 to husbands/grooms in 44-5, then it switches back again to carers in 46-7!
Bro. you are mistranslating
Not you or anyone has a right to marry off anybody without their consent but you no doubt have the right to marry when and if you want.
I am not the one mistranslating but you are. Looks like you have not read my post to Shams. I quote again from my post
Quote
then Marry WOMEN of your choice,What happened to women's choice ? The verse sounds very much sexist if its translated like that.
Brother Shams you look at the mistranslation of the verse and say it does not make sense. Of course the wrong meaning will not make sense. The correct meaning is as follows
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the orphaned women/widows who have agreed with you to by two, by three and by four. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.
Original arabic ............ ............
44 ......."ma taba lakum"....... This is taken as "who has become good to you" or "who are lawful to you" or "of your choice". It can be proved that these interpretations are against the Quran and create contradiction. The women in question are fully qualified from the Quran and do not need an additional attribute. The Quran is its own dictionary. Please note that the verb "taba" is in the past tense as is in 45 (fa-in tibna lakum AAan shay-in minhu nafsan) though there is a subtle difference. In 45, these women are giving a part of what they are entitled to (saduqatihinna) of their own accord. In 44, they are also giving something but not physical They are giving their consent to the idea of marriage. "ma taba lakum" means to "who have agreed with you" (that they be married off). It could also be rendered as "who happily have consented with you" (that they be married off).
If you marry the women OF YOUR CHOICE then what about the CHOICE OF THE WIDOWS under your care ??? You marry them forcibly without THEIR CONSENT even if they do not want to be married to you ???
And then if you take the meaning of 44 as marry more than one then how would you resolve the contradictions it creates according to my PROOF NUMBER 3 ?
Regards,
Tanveer
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Salaams Tanveer,
you said
If you marry the women OF YOUR CHOICE then what about the CHOICE OF THE WIDOWS under your care ??? You marry them forcibly without THEIR CONSENT even if they do not want to be married to you ???Its not women of your choice but rather who consent/agree aswell.
Taba = agreeble/lawful/good. qd p348.
Tibna= of their(women's)own free will and being good to you.
both words are related with the same root,thus indicating simerlarity.So Allah isn't asking us to enforce it.
But on the other hand if you say "marry off"
It would be an order and no one does such a thing to my knowledge.
Simply we don't have a right to marry off others but you do have a God given right to get married yourself if you so choose to.
God Bless.
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Salaamun alaikum mz357,
On one hand you say that "fainkihoo ma taba lakum min alnisa" translates as "marry women of your choice"
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry WOMEN of your choice, Two?s, three?s, four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.On the other hand in your last post you say it means marry off and does NOT mean women of your choice (that is what I was saying too and you are agreeing with me)
Its not women of your choice
Taba = agreeble/lawful/good. qd p348.
Tibna= of their(women's)own free will and being good to you.
both words are related with the same root,thus indicating simerlarity.So Allah isn't asking us to enforce it.
But on the other hand saying "marry off"
becomes an order and no one does such a thing to my knowledge.
Simply we don't have a right to marry off others.But only if they wan't to be married.
You are clearly contradicting yourself !!!
You are the one who kept translating "fainkihoo ma taba lakum min alnisa" as "marry women of your choice" and I disagreed with that and said it means "marry off women who have agreed with you" or "marry off women who have consented with you". This is what I had written in my posts
"ma taba lakum" means to "who have agreed with you" (that they be married off). It could also be rendered as "who happily have consented with you" (that they be married off).
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the orphaned women/widows who have agreed with you to by two, by three and by four. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.
So what do you really think is the correct translation of 44?, the one I quoted or the one you quoted multiple times in your earlier posts and then contradicted it in your last post.