sex before marriage
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Right hand possession is something i'm wanting to spend more time looking at when i find enough time for it.
235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.I don't see how you can have a zawj and an MMA (those whom your right hands possess) unless legally which would need some kind of permission from your zawj. I mean how can you have a zawj, and not go against your zawj by being intimately engaged with an MMA?
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This leaves us with the question of what exactly is a "Right Hand Possession". Can anybody elucidate?
No ideas? The Qur'an itself does in fact seem to supply the answer in verse 3350
O Prophet! Lo! We have made halal to you your wives to whom you have paid their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses of those whom Allah has given you as spoils of war,
Although this statement is addressed specifically to the prophet, it is the only clear definition of "right hand possessions" that I am aware of in the Qur'an ie females whom Allah has given to the Muslims as war booty. Unless someone can come up with a plausible alternative then this must surely be regarded as the proper usage of the term with respect to verse 236.
Any comments?
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Right hand possession is something i'm wanting to spend more time looking at when i find enough time for it.
235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.I don't see how you can have a zawj and an MMA (those whom your right hands possess) unless legally which would need some kind of permission from your zawj. I mean how can you have a zawj, and not go against your zawj by being intimately engaged with an MMA?
Peace
Maybe "keep covered their private parts" is just talking about indecent exposure, not sexual intercourse? -
Peace
Maybe "keep covered their private parts" is just talking about indecent exposure, not sexual intercourse?Yeah, cause we all know what when you have sex it's always with blindfolds on and in pitch black.
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Peace
Maybe "keep covered their private parts" is just talking about indecent exposure, not sexual intercourse?Peace
Even if we assume this, who would be qualified for such exposure other than the wife?
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No ideas? The Qur'an itself does in fact seem to supply the answer in verse 3350
O Prophet! Lo! We have made halal to you your wives to whom you have paid their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses of those whom Allah has given you as spoils of war,
peace
This is a wrong translation, there is nothing like spoils of war in original verse. A better translation could be "As granted to you by Allah"
siki
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Peace
Even if we assume this, who would be qualified for such exposure other than the wife?
2431 is a weaker version of this premise, women should not sexually flaunt themselves except to those whom it is permitted (i.e. husbands) and to those who don't see them in a sexual light anyway.
Anyhow, the main reason I'm posting here is to make a point;
The language is very important here. The quran uses perfectly precise wording everywhere in the book (I noticed this in its description of the universe) and all subtlety is accounted for and no less should be demanded of a book from the omnipotent. So if it says "keep covered their private parts" and not "abstain from sex" then it MEANS "keep covered their private parts" and NOT "abstain from sex". However one must then connect this logically to other verses, indeed "keep covered their private parts" can obviously mean "abstain from sex" in whatever cases.
In this manner, all cases are accounted for. If we immediately attach connotations to a phrase in the quran, we set ourselves up for failure as demonstrated by 1300 years of prolonged irrationality. Thus, every statement in the quran should be taken exactly as it is and then cross referenced to deduce the correct laws ordained by the almighty. You will know when you're on the right track when you stop capitalising random words and leaving others untranslated.
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Peace
Even if we assume this, who would be qualified for such exposure other than the wife?
MMA, who you can already have a "relaxed" dress code around. Maybe MMA means female servants or maids?
2431 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
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2431 is a weaker version of this premise, women should not sexually flaunt themselves except to those whom it is permitted (i.e. husbands) and to those who don't see them in a sexual light anyway.
Anyhow, the main reason I'm posting here is to make a point;
The language is very important here. The quran uses perfectly precise wording everywhere in the book (I noticed this in its description of the universe) and all subtlety is accounted for and no less should be demanded of a book from the omnipotent. So if it says "keep covered their private parts" and not "abstain from sex" then it MEANS "keep covered their private parts" and NOT "abstain from sex". However one must then connect this logically to other verses, indeed "keep covered their private parts" can obviously mean "abstain from sex" in whatever cases.
In this manner, all cases are accounted for. If we immediately attach connotations to a phrase in the quran, we set ourselves up for failure as demonstrated by 1300 years of prolonged irrationality. Thus, every statement in the quran should be taken exactly as it is and then cross referenced to deduce the correct laws ordained by the almighty. You will know when you're on the right track when you stop capitalising random words and leaving others untranslated.
Peace OPF
That was and still is my approach. To try and let it be as lieteral as possible. But it is that which leads to certain problems. I'll do a breif outline for you.
235-6 says to us to guard our private parts (which as you said also means no sex) but the exception to this are our azwaak and MMA (ma malekat aymunkum).
Now we more or less agree that zawj is spouse, but are in some confusion as to what MMA is as we don't need to guard our private parts to them.
Other important verses to keep in mind with regards to the issue of what MMA are
423-24 These verses forbids us from marrying the muhsinat unless they are our MMA first. Or we could say unless they come from the status of MMA which in my opinion makes it difficult to understand MMA as slaves or maids because what would muhsinat be then?Before i used to think that MMA are fiances or girfriends whom you can have sex with. However based on some replys from others i have concluded that the quran advises sex to be exclusive for marriage. See for exmaple 2433
I've continued to think on this subject however and think that there are two possibilities to MMA based on what i currently know
They could be like a finace or girfriend whom you can't have sex with yet can expose your parts to them. Note that this is not relaxing the code in front of them as i shall explain why in my reply to Aalmakto.
Or it could literally just be anyone whom you have some form of implicit or contractual agreement. This would include doctors, maids, girfriends and so on.
Still thinking on this though.
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MMA, who you can already have a "relaxed" dress code around. Maybe MMA means female servants or maids?
2431 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
2431 gives those whom we can relax our dress code in front of in which zawj and MMA are included as well as mothers, farthers and so on. But MMA and zawj have a higher degree in what we expose or can do in terms of physcial. 235-6 is not about relaxing the dress code, it is about unguarding the private parts.
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The way I think of it;
MMA = spouse to be under contract (aka fiance)
So you are allowed to have sex with the spouse but NOT the MMA. However you are allowed to "unguard" your private parts to them; sex is still disallowed until you marry them.
The manner in which I think of it is merely that islam promotes a restricted version of free mixing and dating. It puts a serious tinge on sexual activities (and with all these teen pregnancies, STD epidemics, etc, we can see why it's not merely a laugh) but it allows people to test each other.
Thus the process is that a person freely mixes in their environment. They meet a couple of possible suspects but they don't know who to go for. In Western circles, they would "date" each other and generally proceed to procreate like rabbits for 2-32 weeks while pretending to be "in love" until one is unceremoniously dumped, "NEXT".
In the path prescribed here, you are allowed to look at the goods but not touch, you are allowed to touch when you have paid for the damn things yourself. Thus you find your chosen women and then ask them for a trial in marriage, they become your MMA. You then have a process of learning about each other and how both people operate. If you find that you do not work together, you can end the MMA-contract here as in 424. If you like what you see then you can get it by marriage.
On the other hand, "disbelievers" and "fornicators" are allowed to mingle with each other in the quran as they do on the condition that they do not touch "believers" and that they do not do it publicly (and 4 witnesses are required for this). Of course, they are forbidden to fornicate in secret but if you are a fornicator or a disbeliever in God chances are you don't give two shits about that in the first place.
Thus, what the quran promotes in essence comes to this. A society full of honest people who question everything and freely exchange love and peace between each other, freely give and freely recieve. The family structure is rock solid because of the process of guided sexual selection, everyone has an identifiable father and mother who has given them love throughout their life because they know no hate.
Of this society anyone is allowed to have any beliefs and principles on one condition - they must be able to put up or shut up when the belief comes to the test. The disbelievers are allowed to go about their way providing it does not disturb the balance too heavily. In such a manner, the major faults of society are immediately weeded out by the rules of the quran and the minor faults will get taken out along the way by the manner in which the system operates.
Sexual selection is VERY important in the global picture. The state of affairs in the world now is a sum of the state of affairs in the world of the past generation AND their sexual choices. Keeping that in mind, it is no wonder the quran puts up such a strong barrier to lewd practices. If you reproduce with the wrong person a la fornication pregnancies, you create another person who will be shafted and proceed to shaft the world back because of the unneeded deprivation of love for some pathetic people's 2 minute kicks ().
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2431 gives those whom we can relax our dress code in front of in which zawj and MMA are included as well as mothers, farthers and so on. But MMA and zawj have a higher degree in what we expose or can do in terms of physcial. 235-6 is not about relaxing the dress code, it is about unguarding the private parts.
Yes I agree, it is a higher degree of exposure. However there is nothing to indicate that it is a physical unguarding.
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The way I think of it;
MMA = spouse to be under contract (aka fiance)
Earlier in the thread we had a big discussion on this. Here is just one example of many as to why it cannot be fiance.
3353 O you who believe, do not enter the homes of the prophet unless you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a narrative. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the messenger of God, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God.
3354 If you reveal anything, or hide it, God is fully aware of all things.
3355 There is no sin upon them before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those who are maintained by their oaths. And be aware of God, for God is witness over all things.Basically what I am getting at is. It is not pure for men to ask the Prophet's wives "something" unless behind a barrier.... EXCEPT for the Prophet's Wives fathers, sons etc. and MMAs (see the Arabic, it is clearly about them). So verse 3355 is implying that the Prophet's wives had MMAs!
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Thanks for the clarification.
Who is "their women" referring to?
Also
- We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish
What is this referring to?!?!
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Thanks for the clarification.
Who is "their women" referring to?
Also
- We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish
What is this referring to?!?!
Good question, I am not sure. I was just referencing it for the "maintained by their oaths" part which is what the translator wrote instead of MMA.
Perhaps 3372 is talking about free-will?
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Sorry, where does it state in the Qur'an that you are allowed to have sex with the spouse?
- Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
Also in the quran, things are permissible unless forbidden/exceed limits .
Good question, I am not sure. I was just referencing it for the "maintained by their oaths" part which is what the translator wrote instead of MMA.
Perhaps 3372 is talking about free-will?
It isn't free will
- Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said We come willingly.
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anyone know what the exact definition of adultery and fornication according to the quran alone? i believe in 1 god and the last day and want to follow god's laws but my problem is can't really read arabic and i refuse to believe a translator if i can't verify what i read so i don't follow everything i read in a translation if i can't verfy it by god's words or if it's not common sence so i think my only opition is to learn god's words to be able to know.
Peace,
Respect.- One must then learn to read and write Arabic, if one does not trust the translators.
- Sex before and after the marriage is exactly the same act. The point is in obediance to God.
Peace.
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- Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
Also in the quran, things are permissible unless forbidden/exceed limits .
Yes that is my approach. That all things are permissible unless forbidden.
@Aalmakto.
True it is a higher degree of exposure. But what verse do we have in the Quran that places any limitation on how much we expose or what we do with these parts with erm...our respective MMAs? What's to stop us thinking that we could do all things except actual penetration? The only verse to go by are the ones that talk of lewdness but how can we judge what is lewdness? Unless it's some clear wrong like some kind of fetish or something which we can maby relate to wickedness, i can't see how we can judge something else as lewd when "unguarding" private parts to respective MMAs.@OPF
That verse 2223 does not mention wives. It says women. I do not know of any verse that states sex with spouses to be permissible. Rather it always uses the term nisa meaning sex is permissible with women. But obviously not just any women. Whether it's limited to zawj women or not is what we're trying to figure out here.