Is Quran anti- secular?
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Hi KGB,
Salaam Alleikum MQuran
Brother stop wasting time on people who like to pick and choose Qur'an which suits their own views and and have no shame to reject what they don't like. The discussion on this forum has become a joke where people have problem understanding simple posts. They keep asking stupid questions and still believe that they are wise and intelligent.The same advice for brothers AhmadBaghat and Idmkhizar.
Free Minds Forum has taken over by these idiots who do not know the how to discuss issues logically.
If u r indeed very wise and intelligent, why would u bother posting a personal advice u r giving to ur friends in the discussion here, instead of a PM to them?
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"Should laws of islam be applied to christian, jews, hindus, bhuddist?". Well not in these words but that is the question essentially.
And vice versa. Would u all also be happy to follow the religious laws of the majority people of the non muslim country u live in, if given a choice between secularism and religious laws?
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I don't send Private Messages. Because I don't have anything to hide. I always keep posting on the public forum instead of trying to form a secertive group.
Do you have problem with this? Live with it if you have. I am not going to change myself to please you.
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"Should laws of islam be applied to christian, jews, hindus, bhuddist?". Well not in these words but that is the question essentially.
And vice versa. Would u all also be happy to follow the religious laws of the majority people of the non muslim country u live in, if given a choice between secularism and religious laws?
Khi- Salam. If i wanna live in a country i have to follow its rules. Im living in germany where i cant just beat up the criminals like murderers or rapists or even just be somewhat harsh to homos. Im actually punished if i hurt a rapist by myself even if it were proved in the aftermath that he did rape and i saw it with my own eyes. This doesnt make me happy ofcourse but what can i do. Its the rule of the country. So your saying that secular law makes everyone happy is nonsensible. If you dont like the laws of a country or those laws go against your beliefs or religious scriptures the only logical solution is to leave unless forced by necessity. GOD Bless!
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SaLaM idmkhizar
Khi- Salam. What do you mean? The Quran has laws in it for all humanity and if we were to apply them rape, murder, violence, etc all woud come down considerably and there would be a much greater sense of justice. GOD Bless!
Those arent enough to run a country brother. The Quran is not a book on "How to run a country for dummies". Quran gives morals. This is good. This is right. This is wrong. It is up to us to derive the laws from the Quran and apply it to a society. PM has asked a very crucial question
"Should laws of islam be applied to christian, jews, hindus, bhuddist?". Well not in these words but that is the question essentially.
Even if we pull together the Torah, Gospel and Quran, we still cannot run a country by these books. The countries which have brought religion into their politics , are in a dump. Shouldnt that be a lesson?
Khi- Salam. Ok i get ur point. Quran doesnt detail each and everything. Much is left for us to decide but im talking about whats in there clearly. That should be added to the rules of the country. GOD Bless!
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SaLaM idmkhizar
But brother, where in the Quran do you find the punishment for all criminal acts? Do you know how many criminal acts are there? Are you saying that the Quran gives the punishement to every single criminal act every commited? What about cyber crimer? Does Quran speaks of cyber crime? And as stillearning asked, what about saftey laws while building schools, building, hospitals, roads, cars, turcks, vans, cycles, rockets. There are laws for this. Quran does not gives these laws. WE , the humans, have to derieve these laws from what God gave us. A MORAL CODE.
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SaLaM idmkhizar
But brother, where in the Quran do you find the punishment for all criminal acts? Do you know how many criminal acts are there? Are you saying that the Quran gives the punishement to every single criminal act every commited? What about cyber crimer? Does Quran speaks of cyber crime? And as stillearning asked, what about saftey laws while building schools, building, hospitals, roads, cars, turcks, vans, cycles, rockets. There are laws for this. Quran does not gives these laws. WE , the humans, have to derieve these laws from what God gave us. A MORAL CODE.
Khi- Salam. U dont and i agree. Thats why i said much is left upto us BUT THOSE PUNISHEMTS WHICH ARE MENTIONED IN IT SHOULD BE APPLIED. Get it? GOD Bless!
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SaLaM idmkhizar
Sorry brother i posted after you. I didnt see that post. But ok, so now do you agree that Quran was not meant to run a country?
Khi- Salam. Ok in that sense, yes. But this doesnt mean the Quran's laws should not be included in the legislation of country by believers. I thoguht thats what you meant to imply. GOD Bless!
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Salaamun alaikum,
PeacefulmuslimWell, if u r gonna say , a country with muslim majority should have religious legislation, its only fair that the other countries also follow their religious laws, instead of secular laws meant for 'humanity in general irrespective of religion'.
MQ Are you talking about muslims in the quranic sense or not ?
PM I am, indeed.
What is your point here? If the christians are kafir to thier deen, we should be kafir to ours ? What people do is really thier own affair. Al-quraan commands that God's laws be established. If you reject God's laws, that's also your business.
PM If Australia were to follow christian law, and if any non christian also had to abide by them, even if they dont recognise it as an authority, then it would be unfair wont it? What if some of the religious laws, u feel were very unjust, but still u are forced to abide?
When al-madeenah is established, no one will force you to enter it. So what's the problem here? Are you ok with people entering polities (like the UK) then blatantly disobeying the law ?
Al-quraan postulates LAWS. If you're a muslim, you submit to them. If not, that's also cool.
LoteTree In a society there will always be individuals of different beliefs therefore we have no choice but have a Secular Democracy.
Chaps and Chapes's Secular Democarcy is the only way forward...
The beautiful of proof of this is Paris of last month! The most rabidly anti-religion democracy was burning due to the effects of 'secular democracy'
I completely agree with u.
When people of all religions can live together peacefully under the same roof, in a secular environment , why not?Because al-quraan forbids us to entrust protectorship (wilayaat) over to al-kafireen (5/51)
Brother stop wasting time on people who like to pick and choose Qur'an which suits their own views and and have no shame to reject what they don't like. The discussion on this forum has become a joke where people have problem understanding simple posts. They keep asking stupid questions and still believe that they are wise and intelligent.
The same advice for brothers AhmadBaghat and Idmkhizar.
Free Minds Forum has taken over by these idiots who do not know the how to discuss issues logically.
Yes, al-quraan calls ppl like this 'alladhina haadu' (4/46). Their acceptance of al-islaam is conditional to thier desires and not in full submission (4/65).
PM If u r indeed very wise and intelligent, why would u bother posting a personal advice u r giving to ur friends in the discussion here, instead of a PM to them
What has 'wisdom and intelligence' to do with how he chooses to say this? I think he's wise to say it publically because there's so much misleading information is FM now that people should be forewarned about who really lurks in these pretending to be upholders of Al-quraan when in fact they oppose the establishment of ad-deen fully.
PM And vice versa. Would u all also be happy to follow the religious laws of the majority people of the non muslim country u live in, if given a choice between secularism and religious laws?
If you enter a polity , a political domain, then you undertake the social contract to follow its laws. SECULAR AND RELIGION are made up names, designed to subvert the essence of things which is POWER. Al-Quraan deals with power/mulk and tells us to attain mulk.
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SaLaM idmkhizar
You are around the forum so rare that i want to ask you a lot of question looolll.
Ok, do you beleive that if Quran was sent down today, it would be the exact same in every single punishment as it was 1400 years ago?
Khi- Salam. Regrading the general punishments including all other commands which apply to all believers, YES as those usually preceded by "ya ayuhalazeena aamanu" or simply without any further remark of time and location. Regarding local commandments precede by phrases like "for the Jews we forbade... we decreed the sabbath for the jews..." those were only for a particular time. GOD clearly distinguishes local from global commandments/punishments in the Quran otherwise it just wouldnt make any sense. GOD Bless!
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Salaam Khizar,
Khi- Salam. Regrading the general punishments including all other commands which apply to all believers
Are you saying that IN AN ISLAMIC DOMAIN (this is the key phrase here, a domain ruled by Allah's laws) a disbeliever can commit murder , theft and disorder without any punishment?
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Hi KGB,
Salaam Alleikum MQuran
Brother stop wasting time on people who like to pick and choose Qur'an which suits their own views and and have no shame to reject what they don't like. The discussion on this forum has become a joke where people have problem understanding simple posts. They keep asking stupid questions and still believe that they are wise and intelligent.The same advice for brothers AhmadBaghat and Idmkhizar.
Free Minds Forum has taken over by these idiots who do not know the how to discuss issues logically.
If u r indeed very wise and intelligent, why would u bother posting a personal advice u r giving to ur friends in the discussion here, instead of a PM to them?
What has 'wisdom and intelligence' to do with how he chooses to say this? I think he's wise to say it publically because there's so much misleading information is FM now that people should be forewarned about who really lurks in these pretending to be upholders of Al-quraan when in fact they oppose the establishment of ad-deen fully.
I said he could better PM his friends to advice them instead of disturbing the ongoing discussion, if he didnt want to participate. For refernce, refer Forum rules.
And we are just having a discussion of views and opinions on what people on this forum, think on the subject. Do u guys have a problem with that?
This topic is under '' General Issues / Questions'' and so we are discussing on a general but important topic.
So, whats the forewarning about? That certain people use their brains and discuss instead of shouting abuses at people who disagree with them?It will be kind of u to stick to the discussion.
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Salaam Khizar,
Khi- Salam. Regrading the general punishments including all other commands which apply to all believers
Are you saying that IN AN ISLAMIC DOMAIN (this is the key phrase here, a domain ruled by Allah's laws) a disbeliever can commit murder , theft and disorder without any punishment?
Khi- Salam. OOOps. i guess my words were too short to get the whole sense out of them. The general commands in the Quran are those addressing legal laws, others like salat, zakaat and believing in GOD Alone do not constitute any legal punishment and anyone can choose this for himself. GOD Bless!
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PMI said he could better PM his friends to advice them instead of disturbing the ongoing discussion, if he didnt want to participate. For refernce, refer Forum rules.
KGB is giving a valuable suggestion because if its true that you reject God's laws, then you'll be judging with ur hawaa (see 5/4. If you judge by your hawaa, nothing I say will help anyway (45/23). Its a good point which is essentially stop wasting time.
And we are just having a discussion of views and opinions on what people on this forum, think on the subject. Do u guys have a problem with that?
Not at all. Can I ask you though, is it polite to ask people questions and when they answer, you just overlook it and move on without acknowledgement?
This topic is under '' General Issues / Questions'' and so we are discussing on a general but important topic.
So, whats the forewarning about? That certain people use their brains and discuss instead of shouting abuses at people who disagree with themAbuses? Show me where abuses have flown over DISAGREEMENT ?
It will be kind of u to stick to the discussion.
Are you kidding me? How many times have you answered a question directly? I'll try again, ok
Do you accept al-quraan as criteria ?
If so, do you think all its laws should be established?
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Khi- Salam. OOOps. i guess my words were too short to get the whole sense out of them. The general commands in the Quran are those addressing legal laws, others like salat, zakaat and believing in GOD Alone do not constitute any legal punishment and anyone can choose this for himself. GOD Bless!
Wasalam, so lets say a christian commits murder in an islamic domain, we have to punish him, right ? Despite him not believing in al-quraan?
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salaam pm
My question is simple.
I have no clue which country u live in.
This question is for all those muslims living in secular countries such as USA, Australia, Britain,India etc... Would u prefer if ur country had a religious legislation(such as christian, hindu etc) based on the religion of the majority, or would u prefer a secular legislation taking into consideration 'humanity in general irrespective of religion', like that of now?To answer your questions and I am going by personal experience only.
I ave no doubt that I would like to live in a secular democratic society where evry one is free to pracitce their beliefs. This based purely on my experience of visiting different countries with different systems.
Even if we lived in a society where every one believed in the system according to the Quran-there will be a matter of little difficulty in interpertation(as we have already discovered in this forum), as you see there were will always be ignorant idiots like us who may disagree with the more learned and intelligent ones so whose interpertation are we going to accept?
Oh by the way does the Quran not tell us there is no compulsion in religion or am I being ignorant again!
regards -
SaLaM stillearning
Ahh, i was just thinking of pming you and inviting you to join in here. Good you showed up. Now, as you said, everyone needs to be free to practice whatever they beleive in. This wont be possible if a country is ruled by the Quran. Another reason showing why a country shouldnt be ruled using the Quran.
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KGB is giving a valuable suggestion because if its true that you reject God's laws, then you'll be judging with ur hawaa (see 5/4. If you judge by your hawaa, nothing I say will help anyway (45/23). Its a good point which is essentially stop wasting time.
If u consider it a waste of time, why do u bother to participate in the discussion and blame others for wasting ur time? Did anyone force anyone here to get into a discussion?
Can I ask you though, is it polite to ask people questions and when they answer, you just overlook it and move on without acknowledgement?
Is this implied at me? Coz, if it is and if I have missed out any question, I apologise for it. Didnt intend to.
Abuses? Show me where abuses have flown over DISAGREEMENT ?
Oh, Where shall we start?
democracy thread where u shouted abuses at me, stillearning and Jaxal;
Sect thread whre u shouted abuses at Mehdi
God alone thread where u shouted abuses at MehdiDo you accept al-quraan as criteria ?
If so, do you think all its laws should be established?
I accept Quran as a guidance from God to mankind in which Allah tells us to live life righteously and in a just way without creating mischief on earth.
My Question here is different altogether. I am not asking ''if Quran is any one's criteria?''
I am asking , ''would u be ok if Uk(whre u live today) followed a christian legislation instead of a secular one?
I am just asking for every one's views here. Am not telling anyone what they should believe and what they should not believe.
Everyone can and will use their own brains. Any problems with it?