Sex IS for PLEASURE

bmbmm

Humanity as a species may have been driven by principles of Darwinian Natural Selection in the past but we have reached a stage where Darwinian Reproductive urge no longer is in control. But we are now in control. We are in a sense living in a Anti-Darwinian world and in this world sex is for pleasure and nothing to do it REPRODUCTION.

The above sentence according to science is total rubbish D. Knowledgeable ignorance !

wildguest1956

Humanity as a species may have been driven by principles of Darwinian Natural Selection in the past but we have reached a stage where Darwinian Reproductive urge no longer is in control. But we are now in control. We are in a sense living in a Anti-Darwinian world and in this world sex is for pleasure and nothing to do it REPRODUCTION.

The above sentence according to science is total rubbish . Knowledgeable ignorance !

I would rather have said something like this
"We must increase our awareness of the forces (impulses, emotions...) that are driving our behaviors, so as to be able to understand and then to master them, in order to act less like an animal and more like a human being."

smartfish4804

Peace all

3021 And from His signs is that He created for you partners from yourselves that you may have tranquility with them, and He placed between you affection and mercy. In that are signs for a people who reflect.

2222 And they ask you about menstruation? Say "It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruation, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you." God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.

2224 Your women are a plantation for you you. So come to your plantation however you both wish and make some preparations for yourselves. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.

unknownuser

What evolutionary theory actually says is that the pleasure of sex is an adaptation for procreation.

Yes that may be so but the PROCREATION is a matter of choice now. Darwinian Reproductive urge is no longer in control but we are.

An evolutionary psychologist might respond that sex is pleasurable because the pleasure we experience is one of nature?s tricks to insure that we reproduce.

Yes those evolutionary trick no longer works because we are in control of REPRODUCTION. So my argument goes the PRIMARY use of SEX now is for PLEASURE.

According to this line of thought, the phenomenal experience of enjoyment and pleasure in sex is the proximal evolutionary mechanism to achieve the distal evolutionary goal of guaranteeing reproduction.

Yes but we don't reproduce anymore because of the evolutionary goal. We have control over our REPRODUCTION and hence primary use of sex is for pleasure. We are living in an Anti-Darwinian world. We are no longer driven by Darwinian Animal instincts. The Human Species have evolved to become a exceptional Animal where we are working against evolutionary natural selection.

So, your assertion seems to be senseless.

My assertion stands that we are living in an Anti-Darwinian World where we are now in control of our REPRODUCTION.

Furthemore, I Think this kind of topic may be hurting for the unmarried readers who are striving to avoid sexual relations.

Sorry to hurt your feelings. But do not be afraid to discuss these kinds of issues. No one here is advocating Sodom and Gomorrah type of sexual expression but sexual expression within monogamous and meaningful relationships...

People have said that PRIMARY FUNCTION of SEX is REPRODUCTION. I have just shown you that is no longer the case.

Regards,

unknownuser

Humanity as a species may have been driven by principles of Darwinian Natural Selection in the past but we have reached a stage where Darwinian Reproductive urge no longer is in control. But we are now in control. We are in a sense living in a Anti-Darwinian world and in this world sex is for pleasure and nothing to do it REPRODUCTION.

The above sentence according to science is total rubbish .

How so bmbmm please elaborate -)

Regards,

unknownuser

I would rather have said something like this
"We must increase our awareness of the forces (impulses, emotions...) that are driving our behaviors, so as to be able to understand and then to master them, in order to act less like an animal and more like a human being."

Evolution drives us to behave like animals but we have evolved to become an exceptional species so much that we are working against Darwinian natural selection.

Regards,

bmbmm

Humanity as a species may have been driven by principles of Darwinian Natural Selection in the past but we have reached a stage where Darwinian Reproductive urge no longer is in control. But we are now in control. We are in a sense living in a Anti-Darwinian world and in this world sex is for pleasure and nothing to do it REPRODUCTION.

How so bmbmm please elaborate -)

Regards,

So how do you think (scientifically) is humanity driven by natural selection? How does the nature select? If you start living in a gungle are you gona transform back to a monkey?

Peace

wildguest1956

What evolutionary theory actually says is that the pleasure of sex is an adaptation for procreation.

Yes that may be so but the PROCREATION is a matter of choice now. Darwinian Reproductive urge is no longer in control but we are.

What is " Darwinian Reproductive urge" ???

An evolutionary psychologist might respond that sex is pleasurable because the pleasure we experience is one of natures tricks to insure that we reproduce.

Yes those evolutionary trick no longer works because we are in control of REPRODUCTION.

Wrong, it still work !
Without the attraction for sexual pleasure, we would hardly engage in sexual intercourses.

So my argument goes the PRIMARY use of SEX now is for PLEASURE.

Is your stance descriptive, or normative ?
I don't understand...

According to this line of thought, the phenomenal experience of enjoyment and pleasure in sex is the proximal evolutionary mechanism to achieve the distal evolutionary goal of guaranteeing reproduction.

Yes but we don't reproduce anymore because of the evolutionary goal.

The evolutionary goal may not have been conscious.
One century ago, some human tribes did not known the link between sex and children. They did not know that children was the result of a sexual intercourse.

We have control over our REPRODUCTION and hence primary use of sex is for pleasure. We are living in an Anti-Darwinian world. We are no longer driven by Darwinian Animal instincts.

You are not realizing how much instincts are driving us, even today...
Sexual attraction is one of these instincts.

The Human Species have evolved to become a exceptional Animal where we are working against evolutionary natural selection.

It should, but there is lot to be done.

So, your assertion seems to be senseless.

My assertion stands that we are living in an Anti-Darwinian World where we are now in control of our REPRODUCTION.

What does "living in an anti-darwinian world" mean ?

Peace

unknownuser

Peace idol-free and all. you make an interesting point. When my wife was in labour her breathing at one stage was mis-directed, and the mid-wife pointed this out to her and asked her to re-direct her breathing.This resulted in the delivery being achieved quicker(and probably less painful overall). I agree that pain can be reduced(though not eliminated) with meditation,knowledge etc..
I find the 'monks' story very interesting(was he a 'buddhist' practitioner?)
Any ideas,advice or stories on 'Pain relief' meditation?
Peace.

bmbmm

I would rather have said something like this
"We must increase our awareness of the forces (impulses, emotions...) that are driving our behaviors, so as to be able to understand and then to master them, in order to act less like an animal and more like a human being."

Evolution drives us to behave like animals but we have evolved to become an exceptional species so much that we are working against Darwinian natural selection.

Regards,

So when was the soul given to you throughout your evolution? When start to pill a banana, when you started walking upright or when you started to know about beta-hymoglobin D

TurkishMan

Peace

This discussion began with the argument of whether sex is for reproduction or pleasure. Now it is heading to direction of the Darwinian Natural Selection. lol

I guess it is a hot topic lol Dont we love it? Since we have not began to reproduce mankind with clonning , Then forget it.

It is simply a reproduction with the added benefit of PLEASURE. Or it is for pleasure with the added benefit of reproduction.

To take the reproduction part of it, we need start human cloning. Then we can say" SEX is for PLEASURE"

LoteTree go for human clonning shock

Osiris

Uhm I havent read this whole thread so someone might have said this already, in fact someone has probably.

Anyway, sex is for reproduction, and the reason it is pleasurable is to encourage us to have it. We are encouraged by the pleasurable feeling so as to propogate the human species ) Its as simple as that, in my opinion.

Also, I see that lot-tree beleives in concept since we control reproduction, that the sex drive as a means to reproduce is obsolete. This is easily debunked.
Human beings stopped eating raw leaves thousands of years ago, making the functon of the appendix obsolete. Yet we still carry around this vistigal organ.
So for the sex drives function as reproductive encouragement to become obsolete, humanity would have to evolve an alternate means of reproduction or not need to reproduce and then maintain it for tens of thousands of years.

unknownuser

Human beings stopped eating raw leaves thousands of years ago, making the functon of the appendix obsolete. Yet we still carry around this vistigal organ.

So you are saying to me that the FUNCTION of the APPENDIX was to digest RAW leaves? It was DESIGNED to FUNCTIONso that it digest raw leaves? But since we have evolved the FUNCTION of the APPENDIX has become obsolete?

Let me leave you and others to think about this.

Regards,

Osiris

Yep, thats what I'm saying...we have the organ even though its function is obsolete. I see what you are trying to get at, but the function of sex (reproduction) is NOT obsolete. Therefore, tho what you are saying COULD happen, MAYBE, given the right circumstances, it has NOT happened.

claurianta

What is so often forgotten is that sex does have a secondary function beyond reproduction... but it isn't pleasure. For those of you who are not virgins, remember the first person you had sex with - you got quite attached to that person, no? You felt a certain kind of link. That link has a purpose in keeping couples together. If the sole purpose was to reproduce, we should have no interest in having sex with for example a pregnant wife. It creates a sort of link between two people (or perhaps more appropriately strengthens it) so that they stay together... this staying together is very important for the family unit, so that the children have a mother and father. So here even if you've had a vasectomy or tied your tubes, sex fulfils the purpose of keeping the family happily together.
If the only purpose of sex was to reproduce, we would feel absolutely no attachment to the person we just finished impregnating, but would rather lose all interest at that point and start hunting for the next woman to impregnate (at least from the male perspective). Therefore we can say sex has the double function of reproduction (primary) and keeping couples/families together (secondary). The second has more to do with the pleasure aspect of sex, but it's there to promote monogamy. It's probably also there to make sure you find your correct mate... if you're not sexually compatible, you're going to try to find another mate that is more compatible... and well my romantic idea is that true "soul-mates" have perfectly compatible sex drives so that they have an incentive to only do it with each other.

unknownuser

What is " Darwinian Reproductive urge" ???

To reproduce.

In the Animal World during the mating season the urge to reproduce supersedes all other consideration. There is a type of vole that lives in North Europe. During the mating season, the male voles starve themselves to death in a 6 day mating spree. After the six day of continous sex the voles die of starvation and exhaustion. The forest floor becomes littered with the bodies of dead male voles. This is the Darwinian Reproductive Urge. Humans have reached a stage that they are no longer driven by this Darwinian Principle.

Wrong, it still work !
Without the attraction for sexual pleasure, we would hardly engage in sexual intercourses.

Sexual attraction is still driven by the basics of our biology. But there is a lot more at play when it comes to human sexual attraction.

But the question was PRIMARY FUNCTION of sex was for REPRODUCTION with pleasure being secondary. My argument is that this is no longer the case. we are in control of our REPRODUCTION. Primary use of SEX is for pleasure now. REPRODUCTION has become secondary and even then that is a matter of choice.

Is your stance descriptive, or normative ?
I don't understand...

It is becoming more and more normative.

The evolutionary goal may not have been conscious.
One century ago, some human tribes did not known the link between sex and children. They did not know that children was the result of a sexual intercourse.

We have become conscious of it that is why we control our reproduction. Hence my point we have reached a stage in our development as species where we are no longer tricked by Darwinian Evolutionary mechanics into reproducing.

You are not realizing how much instincts are driving us, even today... Sexual attraction is one of these instincts.

That may be so and it is but we have control over our reproduction. So primary function of sex as a tool for procreation is no longer is in operation. We are working against Darwininian Natural selection.

The Human Species have evolved to become a exceptional Animal where we are working against evolutionary natural selection.

It should, but there is lot to be done.

Yes off course. Do you now get the idea that we are living in an Anti-Darwinian world? wink

Regards,

wildguest1956

What is " Darwinian Reproductive urge" ???

To reproduce.

In the Animal World during the mating season the urge to reproduce supersedes all other consideration. There is a type of vole that lives in North Europe. During the mating season, the male voles starve themselves to death in a 6 day mating spree. After the six day of continous sex the voles die of starvation and exhaustion. The forest floor becomes littered with the bodies of dead male voles. This is the Darwinian Reproductive Urge. Humans have reached a stage that they are no longer driven by this Darwinian Principle.

I don't agree.
I think you have a bad understanding of evolution.
The animals don't strive to reproduce because of a conscient decision "Now, I have to reproduce myself".
The animals are lead by instincts, impulses. When a male strive to have sex with a female, he does not know that the outcome will be offspring.

Instinct is the inherent disposition of a living organism toward a particular behavior. Instincts are generally inherited patterns of responses or reactions to certain kinds of stimuli. In humans they are most easily observed in behaviors such as emotions, sexual drive, and other bodily functions, as these are largely biologically determined. Instinct provides a response to external stimuli, which moves an organism to action, unless overriden by intelligence, which is creative and hence far more versatile.

Examples can more frequently be observed in the behavior of animals (most in the less intelligent species), which perform various activities (sometimes complex) that are not based upon prior experience, such as reproduction, and feeding among insects. Other examples include animal fighting, animal courtship behavior, and internal escape functions.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct

There is no drive for reproduction. There is a sexual drive, the outcome of which is reproduction.
And we, as humans, are still driven by this instinct.

Wrong, it still work !
Without the attraction for sexual pleasure, we would hardly engage in sexual intercourses.

Sexual attraction is still driven by the basics of our biology. But there is a lot more at play when it comes to human sexual attraction.

What ?

But the question was PRIMARY FUNCTION of sex was for REPRODUCTION with pleasure being secondary. My argument is that this is no longer the case. we are in control of our REPRODUCTION. Primary use of SEX is for pleasure now. REPRODUCTION has become secondary and even then that is a matter of choice.

The animals don't know what is the function of sex. They have sex because they are driven by an instinct that lead them to have sex, but they don't know what is the goal in it.
And it is the same for us, as humans.
This is the biological side (the descriptive side) of sex.

Now, the ethic side (the normative side)...

Human sexual behavior in most individuals is typically influenced, if not largely determined, by norms from the culture in which the individual lives. Examples of such norms are prohibitions on sexual intercourse before marriage, or against anal intercourse, or other activities, because the religion to which the individual's culture adheres forbids such activities.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sexuality

To state that "sex is for reproduction" is to establish a social norm ; in this norm we can not have sex for pleasure. It has been used by the Christians as a way to discourage sex outside marriage.

Is your stance descriptive, or normative ?
I don't understand...

It is becoming more and more normative.

A descriptive is not the same as a normative stance.
A stance cannot be descriptive, and at the same time normative. Otherwise, it is confusing.

Descriptive (or constative) statements are falsifiable statements that attempt to describe reality. Normative statements, on the other hand, affirm how things should or ought to be, how to value them, which things are good or bad, which actions are right or wrong.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative

A sentence like "the function of sex is reproduction" does not have the same meaning whether is is descriptive or normative.
If is is descriptive, it is a biological fact. If it is normative, it means that we should have sex only for reproduction.
Likewise "the function of sex is pleasure", as a normative stance, means that we should not restrict our sexual intercourse to reproduction. But, as a descriptive stance, it is senseless.

The evolutionary goal may not have been conscious.
One century ago, some human tribes did not known the link between sex and children. They did not know that children was the result of a sexual intercourse.

We have become conscious of it that is why we control our reproduction. Hence my point we have reached a stage in our development as species where we are no longer tricked by Darwinian Evolutionary mechanics into reproducing.

Yes, we, as humans, have become conscious that the biological function of sex is reproduction.
But we are still submitted to the sexual drive mechanics.

You are not realizing how much instincts are driving us, even today... Sexual attraction is one of these instincts.

That may be so and it is but we have control over our reproduction. So primary function of sex as a tool for procreation is no longer is in operation. We are working against Darwininian Natural selection.

The fact we have control over our reproduction does not change the biological function of sex.

The Human Species have evolved to become a exceptional Animal where we are working against evolutionary natural selection.

It should, but there is lot to be done.

Yes off course. Do you now get the idea that we are living in an Anti-Darwinian world? wink

Regards,

To me " Anti-Darwinian world" means nothing.
Anyway, it is 100% wrong that humans are free from the instincts acquired by the process of evolution.

Peace & regards

unknownuser

The animals are lead by instincts, impulses.

Yes reproductive impulse hence Darwinian Reproductive Urge.
Animals are unconsciously are driven by the urge to reproduce. To pass on their Genes to next generation.

When a male strive to have sex with a female, he does not know that the outcome will be offspring.

Really? Thats why certain animals build nests in the mating season so that they can lay eggs? or create burrows to raise their youngs? Conscious or unconscious Animals are driven by the urge to make copies of themselves.

There is no drive for reproduction.

Incorrect. All animals are replicators. They reproduce.

Sexual attraction is still driven by the basics of our biology. But there is a lot more at play when it comes to human sexual attraction.

What ?

Animals look for a mate that is fit and healthy for reproduction. We human species don't do that anymore. Some humans find very fat people sexually attractive. Others very thin people. Neither group are ideal for reproduction in terms of biology.

The animals don't know what is the function of sex. They have sex because they are driven by an instinct that lead them to have sex, but they don't know what is the goal in it.

Really so why do the Animals build nests and burrows in the mating season?

Yes, we, as humans, have become conscious that the biological function of sex is reproduction. But we are still submitted to the sexual drive mechanics.

Yes that may be so but we are not reproducing. We have control of our reproduction. Hence primary use of sex is for pleasure.

The fact we have control over our reproduction does not change the biological function of sex.

That was not the question. We are all aware or have become aware the biological function of sex. But we have as a species have become more than our biology. And the question was primary use of sex is for pleasure because we choose not reproduce.

To me " Anti-Darwinian world" means nothing.

It means as I said we control our reproduction. We work against Darwinian Natural Selection mechanism. It is not nothing. It is a reality.

Anyway, it is 100% wrong that humans are free from the instincts acquired by the process of evolution.
Peace & regards

But you don't realise we are working against Darwinian Natural Selection all the time from contraceptives to IVF.

Regards,

wildguest1956

The animals are lead by instincts, impulses.

Yes reproductive impulse hence Darwinian Reproductive Urge.
Animals are unconsciously are driven by the urge to reproduce. To pass on their Genes to next generation.

You are confusing the instinct and the function of the instinct.

Instinct is the inherent disposition of a living organism toward a particular behavior.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct

This behaviour can be courtship, sexual intercourse...
And the function of the behaviour can be reproduction.

When a male strive to have sex with a female, he does not know that the outcome will be offspring.

Really? Thats why certain animals build nests in the mating season so that they can lay eggs? or create burrows to raise their youngs? Conscious or unconscious Animals are driven by the urge to make copies of themselves.

Yes. When an animal builds a nest, it is driven buy an instinct to build a nest. Not by conscious thinking.

There is no drive for reproduction.

Incorrect. All animals are replicators. They reproduce.

Reproduction is the biological function of the instinct.
You may know that reproduction is not the only criteria for a gene to replicate itself.
First, it has to survive... So animal may be endowed by a instinct for eating (hunger).
Second, it has to reproduce, hence the sexual drive.
Third, it has to ensure the replicated genes (the offspring) can survive ; hence the instinct to builds a nest

Sexual attraction is still driven by the basics of our biology. But there is a lot more at play when it comes to human sexual attraction.

What ?

Animals look for a mate that is fit and healthy for reproduction. We human species don't do that anymore. Some humans find very fat people sexually attractive. Others very thin people. Neither group are ideal for reproduction in terms of biology.

It is absolutely wrong.
Though we may not be aware of it, we are driven by instincts that make us choose the mate that will be the best in replicating our genes.
This is why it is far more easy for a rich and powerful man to find a female (or several ones).

The human female, on the other hand, runs into a real problem the human mind. Remember that females must apply more criteria to select a male than males apply to a female. It is not the nearest possibility, but the best possibility that she desir es. (Ehrlichman & Eichenstein, 1992) A woman's mind allows her, and indeed forces her to examine possible criteria to a much greater extent than any other animal. She can also project the consequences of choices into the future. What constitutes an alpha male, the best male with which to mate and produce the best possible offspring, depends on far more factors than any other animal on earth. The criteria for her to desire sexually a man can include strength or health or fighting ability, like the lion or the wolf. However, they can also include intelligence, money, power, prestige, position, status, attitudes, political or religious convictions, any number and combination of factors. It's whatever she believes a man should be that will result in 1) the best possible genes for her offspring, and 2) the offspring's best chance for survival and ability to pass on its genes. It is the human mind that allows her to consider the possibilities, the criteria, the future outcome of her actions. She does not go into heat and mate with the closest best bet. She makes plans, examines her choices, makes conscious decisions. Only the human female can make conscious, planned decisions about her sex life.
http//www.wsu.edu8080/~taflinge/socsex.html