Judge a faith by its founder, not by its followers
-
I do not wish to offend, but to gain greater understanding, so I respectfully ask for your patience and consideration as I frame my thoughts in this post.
I have read about the life of Mohammed. His actions, including all the violence, his relationship with Aisha, etc., persuade me that he could not possibly have been a messenger of God as surely God's messengers are held to higher standards of behavior.
I have also studied the life of Jesus Christ. In Him I find no flaw. Yet, Mohammed asks us to believe that Jesus was a mere prophet and not the Son of God as Jesus himself claimed.
Mohammed's position just doesn't hold up and it seems so obvious to me that I'm amazed any educated person with a desire to seek truth could remain a Muslim. Those who claim Islam is a religion of peace must intentionally ignore very specific instructions in the Quran to the contrary and those who look at Mohammed's life must surely work very hard to defend his indefensible behavior.
Of course, many devices are used to justify or rationalize such problems away, for example the concept that Mohammed's later revelations supercede his earlier ones. Well, as just one example of illogical debate, that implies that God had trouble making up his mind while revealing truth to Mohammed, or that God sometimes got it wrong earlier on and had to make corrections, or that God chose a messenger incapable of getting the message right without repeated attempts, etc. This further applies to Mohammed's claim that both he and Jesus were prophets of God since Mohammed's writings in the Quran often contradict the teachings of Jesus. Since I don't believe God makes mistakes, it just doesn't add up for me.
Surely both Christians and Muslims, like men of all faiths, have done and will continue to do much wrong in the world. That's part of the human condition. So I say judge a faith by its founder and his teachings, not solely by people who claim to be followers of the faith. And when that is applied to Islam, I cannot possibly conclude that there is even a remote chance that Islam is true.
I encourage all on this board to do their homework and prayerfully seek God's guidance in their search for truth. I will check back occasionally as time permits to engage in discussion if reasonable replies warrant it, but I have to admit that I probably won't pay much attention to replies that start with the assumption that Mohammed was a prophet of God without addressing the concerns I raise above.
Thanks.
/oneway
-
Peace oneway. I agree,a literal reading of the quran and hadith can make one conclude that this religion is illusionary and false.However using our intellect and intuition we can look at the scriptures in a different light. I do not believe in sex slaves,underage marriage,hand chopping,whippings,beheadings etc..etc.. I take the spirit of the message of the quran as one of universal love,peace and respect.I believe all religions have the same root message; 'love your neighbour as you love yourself.' Islam is not superior to christianity,buddhism,hinduism etc..but another expression of general truths(which are contained in all the scriptures.) in the arabic language and in a different time.Some of these truths are expressed as non-literal or metaphorical,just as the bible cannot and/or is not taken literally by all christians.(and some views on the quran or bible are interpreted wrongly and lead to harmful behaviour.) My views are probably not representative of the forum,but i take the word islam and muslim as verbs meaning peaceful,respectful,loving behaviour.
Peace all. -
salam.
I have read about the life of Mohammed. His actions, including all the violence, his relationship with Aisha, etc., persuade me that he could not possibly have been a messenger of God as surely God's messengers are held to higher standards of behavior.
judge Muhammad by the Quran . not by the stories people have made up about him .
I have also studied the life of Jesus Christ. In Him I find no flaw.
the stories/lies about jesus christ i.e .
Of course, many devices are used to justify or rationalize such problems away, for example the concept that Mohammed's later revelations supercede his earlier ones. Well, as just one example of illogical debate, that implies that God had trouble making up his mind while revealing truth to Mohammed, or that God sometimes got it wrong earlier on and had to make corrections, or that God chose a messenger incapable of getting the message right without repeated attempts, etc.
there is no such thing as later revelations superceding earlier ones .
This further applies to Mohammed's claim that both he and Jesus were prophets of God since
Mohammed's writings in the Quran often contradict the teachings of Jesus.
Since I don't believe God makes mistakes, it just doesn't add up for me.the teachings of both prophets are in the Koran .
Surely both Christians and Muslims, like men of all faiths, have done and will continue to do much wrong in the world. That's part of the human condition. So I say judge a faith by its founder and his teachings, not solely by people who claim to be followers of the faith. And when that is applied to Islam, I cannot possibly conclude that there is even a remote chance that Islam is true.
Muhammad is not the founder of islam . it is the religion of Ibrahim . the true stories of the prophets are in the Quran .
-
Peace oneway. I agree,a literal reading of the quran and hadith can make one conclude that this religion is illusionary and false.However using our intellect and intuition we can look at the scriptures in a different light. I do not believe in sex slaves,underage marriage,hand chopping,whippings,beheadings etc..etc.. I take the spirit of the message of the quran as one of universal love,peace and respect.I believe all religions have the same root message; 'love your neighbour as you love yourself.' Islam is not superior to christianity,buddhism,hinduism etc..but another expression of general truths(which are contained in all the scriptures.) in the arabic language and in a different time.Some of these truths are expressed as non-literal or metaphorical,just as the bible cannot and/or is not taken literally by all christians.(and some views on the quran or bible are interpreted wrongly and lead to harmful behaviour.) My views are probably not representative of the forum,but i take the word islam and muslim as verbs meaning peaceful,respectful,loving behaviour.
Peace all.That's understandable, but Islam is not a faith that embraces the "Golden Rule." It is not in the Quran and some Muslims will explain that they find it flawed (as I've seen in other posts in this forum).
-
peace oneway and all. I must say that even if anybody proved parts of the quran are wrong or that muhammed was not a true prophet it would not really affect my morals or my faith. This is because i do not take the scripture or a man as my sum total of knowledge.Morals and knowledge can be aquired by ones direct experience,science,intuition,conscience,teachings of wise men,etc,etc..
I know its wrong to cause suffering to others so i try not to do it,i dont necessarily need a book or a specific man to tell me this,ive learnt this through experience and conscience. There are many different schools of thought within islam,some sufis(muslim mystics.) believe in universal love and seeing god in all things. Some of the teachings in the old testament i have heard are pretty gruesome if taken literally. If anybody wants to be pedantic and/or critical they can take a bad view of any prophet or person they want. What about jesus saying 'think not that i come in peace,i come with a sword?' or when he threw out the money-lenders from the temple,etc.. If these verses are taken literally or out of context then they could portray a bad picture of jesus. The quran(in my mind.) does include the golden rule when it says 'god recommends doing good(justice/love/respect.) to parents,those close/related to you,orphans,the poor,the close neighbour and the neighbour who is a stranger and those you have responsibility for'.(ie all of your fellow men.),i would say that is a comprehensive verse like the golden rule.(see quran, 436 in any translation you wish.) This verse is also not the only one that includes this advice. I think you will find that some people who call themselves muslims are very close to some christians in their morality. Also i think religion can evolve,and even if we take your premise as true(ie islam is incorrect.)i would judge islam by its followers,not its roots.Some muslims have adapted their faith and morals and cleansed it off some of the 'extremist' and harmful interpretations. What is written about islam is not necessarily how muslims conduct themselves.
Peace. -
Peace be with you, oneway, and welcome to the forum. )
I'd highly recommend you read through some of the articles on the main website - ww.free-minds.org - also, some of the threads on the board, you may call it homework if you like. wink But most of all, before you start accusing others of wrong doing, perhaps it would be better to investigate the truth from falsehood, then by all means give your proof. Simply saying this person or that was good or bad without any references does not benefit you or anyone else. Perhaps it would surprise you that there are a number of members here who don't follow or adhere to the traditional accounts of the person you speak of, or that some believe in God and don't follow religions or their "founders".
I will check back occasionally as time permits to engage in discussion if reasonable replies warrant it, but I have to admit that I probably won't pay much attention to replies that start with the assumption that Mohammed was a prophet of God without addressing the concerns I raise above.
But then again if your purpose here is to preach christianity, then please do so in the section provided. You might also be pleasantly surprised to find others who are also not interested in mutual discussion or debate, but only to convey their message across. rollPeace
-
peace all. I must say all these dubious intepretations of the quran and the idolisation of the quran is now coming back to haunt some of the islamic community.People relying on circular logic and proving their points only from the literal quran is a potential recipe for disaster.Ive been on other non-muslim forums and they rightly criticise the extremist interpretations and point at the inhumanness of these views and deeds done in the name of god and the quran. What a disservice to islam!
Quran without using the intellect and other knowledge to verify it=possible disaster.
When the dalai lama in response to what his religion was,said; 'My religion is kindness.' He gave the greatest endorsement of the value of buddhism in one sentence.
Its time to really wake up brothers and sisters,it really is.
Peace all. (ps;thats why brother idol-free is such a breath of fresh air,he tries to get to the facts in a non-biased way using verfication and universal truths.) -
the golden rule
"he who has the gold, maketh the rule"
yes the vatican has taught us that well for a millenia or two! or is it some other rule that youre talking about?
-
Peace,
As far as I know, stories about Jesus come directly from the Bible. Therefore, I think it's unfair to take into account writings about Muhammad that dont come from Al Quran. wink
I personally dont agree to the suggestion to judge a faith by its founder. I think we should judge a faith by the messages in its Scripture.
-
Peace,
Peace, As far as I know, stories about Jesus come directly from the Bible. Therefore, I think it's unfair to take into account writings about Muhammad that dont come from Al Quran. wink
what information about his life is given just in the Quran, not related in any way with the tradition/hadiths?
-
Peace be with you, oneway, and welcome to the forum. )
I'd highly recommend you read through some of the articles on the main website - ww.free-minds.org - also, some of the threads on the board, you may call it homework if you like. wink
Thanks, and that's certainly fair advice smile
But most of all, before you start accusing others of wrong doing, perhaps it would be better to investigate the truth from falsehood, then by all means give your proof. Simply saying this person or that was good or bad without any references does not benefit you or anyone else.
There is evidence in the Quran itself that Mohammed advocates violence against non-believers, which contradicts the teachings of Jesus. Or if the argument is that the Quran is from God, not Mohammed, then God contradicts Jesus in the Quran while simultaneously endorsing Jesus as a previous prophet.
As for Mohammed himself, the hadiths are the principle source of details about Mohammed's lifestyle and many of them paint a shockingly terrible picture of Mohammed. I realize many on this site reject the hadiths and believe only in the Quran, even though the vast majority of practicing Muslims believe otherwise. That's fine, and I'm not interested in debating the validity of the hadiths. To me, the Quran provides sufficient evidence that Mohammed was not writing a revelation from God unless God is inconsistent and self contradictory.
Perhaps it would surprise you that there are a number of members here who don't follow or adhere to the traditional accounts of the person you speak of, or that some believe in God and don't follow religions or their "founders".
As I mentioned above, that is no surprise. It is part of what intrigued me about this forum as compared to others. Even relying on the Quran alone there are sufficient contradictions with the teachings of Jesus that either Jesus or the Quran must be incorrect, yet the Quran also endorses Christ as a prophet.
But then again if your purpose here is to preach christianity, then please do so in the section provided. You might also be pleasantly surprised to find others who are also not interested in mutual discussion or debate, but only to convey their message across. roll
I'm not here to preach Christianity. I am interested in understanding how Muslims get past the problems I see with Islam and Mohammed in particular. As my original post makes clear, I don't believe you can divorce a faith from the example of its founder (or main prophet, whichever you prefer) or his teachings. To do so is to create something different from the original.
Muslims revere Mohammed, even if they claim to worship only God. Some Muslims reject the hadiths and apparently many on this site adopt that approach. Many of my problems with Mohammed come from the hadiths, so this may not be the right forum for that part of the discussion, which is the main one in which I was interested.
The relevance of Christ in my discussion here is primarily that I see contradictions between the teachings in the Quran (including, but not limited to, what the Quran teaches about Christ) and the teachings of Christ Himself. I want to understand how Muslims work around such contradictions just as I want to understand how Muslims get around Mohammed's behavior (again, I understand that many here do the latter by rejecting the hadiths). I suspect most Muslims are just as ignorant of Christianity as most Christians are of Islam and so the contradictions between the two are not so evident to most Muslims.
I welcome discourse on these topics and I'm sorry if I implied otherwise. I only meant to be honest and clear that I'm interested in reasoned debate, not in discussions with Muslims who start from assumptions about the holiness of the Quran or of Mohammed, both of which I contend are self evidently incorrect even without accepting Christianity.
-
Peace,
Peace, As far as I know, stories about Jesus come directly from the Bible. Therefore, I think it's unfair to take into account writings about Muhammad that dont come from Al Quran. wink
what information about his life is given just in the Quran, not related in any way with the tradition/hadiths?
Quran is the criterion that will judge the information contained in the hadith/traditions .
peace.
-
the golden rule
"he who has the gold, maketh the rule"
yes the vatican has taught us that well for a millenia or two! or is it some other rule that youre talking about?
smile Well put, hence my position that we should judge a faith by its founder (or main prophet) and his teachings (or revelations) rather than solely by the flawed people who purport to be following those teachings.
That said, the golden rule to which I refer is often stated as
Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Luke 631 NIV)Contrast that with this quote from the Quran
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. (4829)
The golden rule doesn't teach us to act differently toward unbelievers and believers. Islam does.
-
Peace,
As far as I know, stories about Jesus come directly from the Bible. Therefore, I think it's unfair to take into account writings about Muhammad that dont come from Al Quran. wink
That's partly fair, except that the Bible is not viewed as a direct dictation from God, but a collection of writings by men inspired by God. The Gospels that detail the teachings of Christ are written by followers of Christ as the hadiths are written by followers of Mohammed. So I guess I might accept the argument that the hadith authors are not divinely inspired, but not the simple argument that the hadiths are invalid just because they were not written by Mohammed. In any case, as stated in my reply to zenje above, I'm not looking to debate the legitimacy of the hadiths.
I personally dont agree to the suggestion to judge a faith by its founder. I think we should judge a faith by the messages in its Scripture.
I think we have to use both. If the messenger is corrupt, then so is the message. Likewise, if the message is corrupt, then so is the messenger.
-
Peace simple and all. The golden rule is indeed a brilliant rule. I believe the verse you refer to means; be strong against the harmful deeds of others,not against the people themselves. Ie when my children are naughty i tell them off,but still respect and love them. My views are radically different from what others may post to you,but im offering alternative views.
How do you reconcile the old testaments 'harsh' statements(if taken literally,eg wrath of god,drowning of disbelivers in the flood,etc..) with the peaceful statements of jesus?(eg god loves the sinners too.) And also the 'i have come with a sword' statement.
Peace. -
Hello,
Well, I have to say that the people who tries to degrade mohammad only resort to stories that is nothing but clear cut conectures, they never bring a verse from the Quran lol
I wonder about those double standard humans who come and accuse mohammad as such ignoring Allah's testimony in the Quran about him that Moahhammd is the most excellent of characters and was sent as a mercy to all humanity
now why I said they are double standard?, well, because they also ignored what the holy bible say about most of the prophets, now the bible is a scripture not conjecture lol
we read in the holy bible the following about some of the great prophets
-
Moses ordering to kill all males including children and all females excluding virgins who are 3 years old for them to rape them, "oh come on give me a break will ya?"
-
Prophet Lut gettin drunk then having sex to make new generations with his own bilogical daughters "of please, give me a hell of a break, will ya?"
-
King David "Dawood" liking his neighbour hot wife then calling her to his mansion to have sex with her "far out man, how a prophet can do that?"
not to mention all the porno materials, prophets who married hundreds of women and have hundreds of slaves, violence, all all these of holy passages in a holy book
based on their logic and according to the holy bible, all these prophets were a bunch of drunks, thugs, murderers, adulterers, and rapists
now show me in the hoily Quran where it shows Mohammad or any of these great prophets as such?
i got you red handed i guess wink
peace
-
-
Peace simple and all. The golden rule is indeed a brilliant rule. I believe the verse you refer to means; be strong against the harmful deeds of others,not against the people themselves. Ie when my children are naughty i tell them off,but still respect and love them. My views are radically different from what others may post to you,but im offering alternative views.
All views are welcome and appreciated. smile
How do you reconcile the old testaments 'harsh' statements(if taken literally,eg wrath of god,drowning of disbelivers in the flood,etc..) with the peaceful statements of jesus?(eg god loves the sinners too.) And also the 'i have come with a sword' statement.
Peace.Those parts of the Old Testament are largely historical and emphasize "The Law" and consequences for disobedience to God. I don't believe in strict literal interpretation of the Bible as it is inspired by God, not dictated by God (except for the Ten Commandments in the O.T.). I also don't presume to understand all God's reasons for the harsher episodes in the O.T., except that they are instructive as to God's power and wisdom which far exceed our own. (Regarding literal interpretation, for example, I don't believe the O.T. endorses polygamy simply because many central figures in the O.T. were polygamists or had concubines, etc. In fact, all of those characters, including Abraham, had a tough time of it and were severely tested by God. The lessons from their stories include much about how not to relate to God.)
The New Testament emphasizes Christ's message of salvation through grace, which is more important than the Old Testament Law, and is the "main story", if you will, of Christianity. The message is that, through Christ, all can be forgiven as he is the ultimate sacrifice. This was a very disruptive message at the time and the sword to which Christ refers in Matthew 1034-36 is not a literal sword, but the figurative sword of disruption which Jesus says will turn "a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household." In other words, Jesus didn't come to say keep doing things the old way. He came with a new message and he is cautioning his disciples that it will not be readily accepted by many.
Again, I'm not looking to preach Christianity in this forum -- just trying to answer the question.
-
I probably won't pay much attention to replies that start with the assumption that Mohammed was a prophet of God without addressing the concerns I raise above.
of course you won't reply to the above assumption, as well you won't reply to the assumption that Jesus is god or the son of god, sorry I mean the holy spirit wink
-
Hello,
Well, I have to say that the people who tries to degrade mohammad only resort to stories that is nothing but clear cut conectures, they never bring a verse from the Quran lol
I wonder about those double standard humans who come and accuse mohammad as such ignoring Allah's testimony in the Quran about him that Moahhammd is the most excellent of characters and was sent as a mercy to all humanity
now why I said they are double standard?, well, because they also ignored what the holy bible say about most of the prophets, now the bible is a scripture not conjecture lol
we read in the holy bible the following about some of the great prophets
- Moses ordering to kill all males including children and all females excluding virgins who are 3 years old for them to rape them, "oh come on give me a break will ya?"
Moses never ordered killing of any children. You've confused the story of Moses' birth where he was spared from the Egyptian Pharaoh's order to slaughter children and ended up being raised by the Pharaoh's wife.
- Prophet Lut gettin drunk then having sex to make new generations with his own bilogical daughters "of please, give me a hell of a break, will ya?"
That's right, Lot's daughters had sex with him because they feared they would not otherwise be able to have children since Soddom had been destroyed. The Bible relates this story not to endorse the behavior, but as part of a larger narrative about that particular family and the broader issues of the consequences of disobeying God.
- King David "Dawood" liking his neighbour hot wife then calling her to his mansion to have sex with her "far out man, how a prophet can do that?"
In fact it was even worse David impregnated her and had her husband killed in battle so he could have her for himself. Once again, the Bible is not endorsing the behavior but demonstrating the fallability of men and the consequences of their behavior. David's behavior displeased God and God punished David and his family for David's sin. You really need to read the whole story smile
not to mention all the porno materials, prophets who married hundreds of women and have hundreds of slaves, violence, all all these of holy passages in a holy book
Again, a story appearing in the Bible does not mean God approves of the behavior of those in the story. Often the story is used to demonstrate the consequences of sin. And, of course, Mohammed was a polygamist, a war monger, a rapist, and a pedophile if you believe the hadiths, yet the Quran shows no consequence to Mohammed for his sins. Throwing stones from a glass house is rarely effective, huh?
based on their logic and according to the holy bible, all these prophets were a bunch of drunks, thugs, murderers, adulterers, and rapists
now show me in the hoily Quran where it shows Mohammad or any of these great prophets as such?
i got you red handed i guess wink
peace
Frankly, the only thing red should be your face for showing your ignorance of the Bible and for misrepresenting my position. I already said I understand that many on this forum reject the hadiths. Ok, fine. The Quran directly endorses and instructs violence against non-believers. Can you show me where Christ does that? Didn't think so. wink
-
lol lol
Good, thanks for catching the bait, now let's roll
but later today wink