Judge a faith by its founder, not by its followers
-
of course you won't reply to the above assumption, as well you won't reply to the assumption that Jesus is god or the son of god, sorry I mean the holy spirit wink
(editing because I realized I misinterpreted AhmedBahgat's statement above, which refers to my original post and is not saying that I won't reply to his message)
My point in my original post was simply that if you argue from the assumption that Mohammed and the Quran are holy, then there is not much point in having a discussion since I don't believe that. I want reasoned arguments as to the truth of the Quran and/or the goodness of Mohammed that do not rely on faith alone.
As to your statement about Jesus, I believe Jesus is who He said He was. (BTW - he didn't say he was the Holy Spirit.) That Mohammed and Muslims do not believe Jesus's own statements is contradictory Either Jesus was who He said He was or He was a liar or a madman. If He was a liar or madman, then He wasn't a prophet of God. The Quran says He was a prophet of God but it also says He was not who He said He was, i.e. it says He was only a prophet, not the Son of God. Therefore, the Quran is demonstrably incorrect and, since God doesn't make mistakes, the Quran cannot be a direct revelation from God.
Its a simple proof and it doesn't require belief in Christianity to see the obvious contradiction in the Quran. It only requires knowledge of who Jesus claimed to be, whether you believe Him or not is irrelevant.
All you are doing is attacking Christianity in retaliation to my arguments against Islam because you are incapable of defending Islam on its own.
-
It seems you are the one who have no clue of Jesus teachings lol , i found this in my archive that was sent to me by a muslim brother "his name is Usamah Abdullah", from this article you will recognise how confused christian you are
Adultery punishment in the Bible's Old and New Testaments
The following Verses are from the NIV Bible"You shall not commit adultery."
(Exodus 2014)"If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
(Deuteronomy 2222)"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
( Leviticus 2010)"But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself."
(Proverbs 632)He destroys himself by being put to death as shown above.
"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father she shall be burnt with fire."
(Leviticus 219)Why should only a daughter of a priest gets burnt to death if she profanes herself? Why can't this law apply to all daughters?
"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."
(Deuteronomy 2511-12)This doesn't make any sense what so ever! Why should the woman get her hands cut off for defending her husband? It's not like she was cheating on him or anything like that!
We clearly see that adultery causes death from the Verses above. Let us see what Jesus peace be upon him said about adultery
The following Verses are from the NIV Bible
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
(Matthew 199)Wouldn't this cause the man to be put to death?
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her."
(Mark 1011)Again, wouldn't he then be put to death since he would have committed adultery?
"And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
(Mark 1012)Same question should be asked about the women who are considered have committed adultery. Wouldn't they be put to death also?
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
(Luke 161Another question here is Would an adulterer in the New Testament be put to death?
Keep in mind that when Jesus gave the above laws, he gave them during the time when he spoke highly of the Old Testament's Law
Jesus orders Christians to follow the Old Testament's laws
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished.?
(Matthew 517-1It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single "letter" of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled.
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.?
(Matthew 231-3)We clearly see in these verses that Jesus peace be upon him did not prohibit for the Old Testament to be followed, but only warned his followers to not follow it the way the current religious leaders of the Law (the Jewish Rabies) were following it.
So according to Jesus peace be upon him, the adulterer in the New Testament must be put to death.
Question to Christians
Statisrics in the US, show more than 50% of the population is divorced. People divorce each others, and marry other people and still attend Churches and consider themselves Christians.An important question to those people is Aren't you violating the laws of the Bible?
What about John 81-11? Does it really justify fornication, adultery and pornography as many Christians believe?
Let us look at John 81-111 - But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 - At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.
3 - The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
4 - and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
5 - In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"
6 - They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7 - When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 - Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 - At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
10 - Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11 - "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
( John 81-11)Many Christians use these verses to justify fornication and pornography. And the use of John 81-11 does indeed raise a great concern to Morals and Ethics.
For one thing, it is the biggest mistake for the citizens of the Christian Whoredom to use John 81-11 as an excuse for the sexual sins they commit against GOD Almighty. When Jesus peace be upon him refused to stone the woman, HE ACTUALLY REFUSED TO BE A HYPOCRITE!
Have he ordered the stoning of the woman, he would have been indeed a hypocrite, because people in charge of authority back then were not following anything in the Law properly. He even called them "hypocrites" in several occasions; see Matthew 62, 5, 16, Matthew 157, Matthew 2218, Matthew 2313, 15, 23, 25, 27, 29, Matthew 2451, Mark 76 and Luke 1315 in the Bible.
So why punish the weakest citizen and leave the cause of the corruption?! That was the Message that Jesus peace be upon him gave to the people back then. Notice that John 86 clearly says
"They were using this question as a trap"
(John 86)which clearly means that the situation of John 81-11 was no more than a trap to make Jesus peace be upon him make a mistake. That's why HE DIDN'T ALLOW THEM TO OUT SMART HIM AND FORCE HIM TO GIVE ANY JUDGMENT AGAINST THE WOMAN. Jesus peace be upon him didn't in anyway nullify the Laws of GOD Almighty regarding punishment for adultery.
As we read above, keep in mind that when Jesus gave the above mentioned laws regarding what he considered adultery, he gave them during the time when he spoke highly of the Old Testament's Law
Jesus orders Christians to follow the Old Testament's laws
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished.?
(Matthew 517-1It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single "letter" of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled.
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.?
(Matthew 231-3)We clearly see in these verses that Jesus peace be upon him did not prohibit for the Old Testament to be followed, but only warned his followers to not follow it the way the current religious leaders of the Law (the Jewish Rabies) were following it.
lol lol this suppose to be a book of wisdom lol , sure if it hasn't got corrupted by sheeps in while cloths
-
Look oneway
post the voilent Quran verses along with your explanation of the violence in it or anyone's explanation like Dr Ali Sina for example, and I will respond to it
-
Look oneway
post the voilent Quran verses along with your explanation of the violence in it or anyone's explanation like Dr Ali Sina for example, and I will respond to it
I'm not interested in a cut and paste battle, as you apparently are. I have already explained my answers. David and Lot's family suffered for the sins you described. Read the full story in the Bible instead of snippets from web sites. That they didn't suffer literally in the way other passages suggest as appropriate has no bearing on my arguments against Islam. I've already said I don't believe in literal interpretation of the Bible, and that I am not here to preach Christianity (or defend it, though your continued misrepresentations make it tempting to do so).
You think the Bible is bunk. Got it.
Now, for the sake of argument, lets say it is bunk. That does nothing to help your case for Islam, which I'm still waiting to hear.
-
You are backing off, lol
I understand, post your false claims agaisnt the Quran and I will demolish it
i still have a lot to show you in your corrupt bible, the book of wisdom
or how about debating the joke of Jesus being a god?
come on how a god gets spat at, pissed at, insulted, bashed, spiked, nailed, then hanged on a cross to die in front of the public for further fumiliation?, this is bizzare lol then instead of being an example to us he shouts like a crying coward
god, god, why you have forsaken me
what a load of non sense that is man lol, amazingly some dumb huumans believe it, isn't satan a very clever jinn?
-
Oh. Another Christian...
Simply put The Christian religion is based on the idea of original sin and redemption.
Since the Qur'an says there is no such thing as the original sin (Adam has been forgiven, and no man carries the burden of another) so redemption via Jesus is unnecessary.
The Qur'an said Jesus is not God.
And our main focus here isn't the life of Muhammad, which sadly was misperceived by lots of people, Muslims and non Muslims, due to faulty sources like dubious hadith and potentially inaccurate historical records.
I rest my case.
-
You are backing off, lol
I'm not backing off, I'm standing behind my original question and sticking to my original commitment not to debate matters that are purely matters of faith. You enjoy taking Bible passages out of context and denying Christ which really just helps to prove my earlier point.
In fact, much of that cut and paste reply you posted earlier I agree with, but that's because most of it argues against ludicrous positions that no Christian actually holds, which is a common strawman argument that people attacking Christianity like to construct. (Hint No Christian I know of has ever tried to claim that the story where Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," somehow means that there is no penalty for adultery. That's just silliness and you know it. Likewise for the story of David and Bathsheba -- see my earlier reply -- you have to read the whole story to understand the lessons to be drawn from it and beyond lessons about forgiveness and grace the story is full of lessons about the consequences of sin.)
Simply put, again, the Quran says Christ is to be revered as a prophet of God (yet you mock him in this forum). The Quran also says that Christ was only a prophet and not the Son of God. Yet, in the Bible, which predates the Quran by a long shot, Jesus says He is the Son of God.
If you reject the Bible, you reject Jesus's teaching about the the truth of scripture. If you reject that Jesus is the Son of God, you either believe he is a liar or that he's crazy. If you subscribe to either view, He can't be a prophet of God. The Quran tries to have it both ways in order to elevate Mohammed to the same status as Christ, but it just doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny.
So go ahead and keep posting your claims against Christianity. As I said, I didn't come to this forum looking to convert Muslims to my beliefs, but only to see if Muslims could explain to me why they believe Islam is right and why they believe Mohammed is worthy of reverence.
I began with a question about Mohammed and his obvious evil nature as indicated in the hadiths. I realized that many on this forum reject the hadiths, and that's a fine response to that line of discussion.
But posting more and more against Christianity while challenging me to cut and paste verses from the Quran is just dodging my question. And when I ask you direct questions, you ignore them. If you have truly sought truth, and you believe Islam is truth, then tell me what persuades you of that. I have already explained some of the problems I see and all you've done is attack Christianity and ask me to post specific verses. That's fruitless. Tell me why you believe Islam is true. Use verses if you wish, but it certainly isn't required. Tell me what else you've explored and why it didn't ring true to you, and so on.
Otherwise I will be patient and wait for more responses from mature Muslims like some of the others who have replied here.
-
Peace all,
Oneway, if you insist on stating a position, you cannot back out of posting the evidence for your assertions. You cannot say that Muhammad said evil things then say that you do not want to talk about the evil things he said. Your position is quite silly. If you depend on the hadith to verify your reasoning that Muhammad is an evil man, then you must also use the same ridiculous body of work to verify that he was a saint. The idea the Aisha was 6 or whatever is internally contradictory to the body of hadith that it comes from. Also, the verses that you fail to post are probably taken way out of context, which I am sure you realize and that is why you do not want to post them. I agree with whoever said that "love thy neighbor as yourself" is a silly axiom. It doesn't really state anything specific nor does it tell you how to do so. It is also very subjective and impossible for human beings. The word "love" is subjective as is the method of "loving." Also, human beings are incapable of loving perfect strangers in any substantial manner, I am sorry to say. We are programmed to love those who we spend time with and who rub us the right way. That is sad, but true.
As for the supposed "life of Jesus" that your rely on, can you state a reason for believing that it acurrately depicts the life of that person named Jesus? It is commonly known that neither the writers of the gospels nor paul actually met Jesus, so how would they know what he did or who he was? Even if they did, the information in the gospels about Jesus is so mutually contradictory that no intelligent person could be led to think them reliable. It is even more ridiculous when we realize that the gospels only account for about 7yrs of Jesus' life even though he lived for 3 decades. So, do provide your evidence...
-ichephren -
Dear OneWay,
Peace and blessings!
Shall we follow the human-made Laws as they exist today or that which existed a hundred years ago and got replaced by the current law? The Final Revelation of God, Al-Quran is the Watcher over previous scriptures. It corrects that which has been tampered with. The answer could be very long, but let's have the Qur'an deal with it by itself.
21 A.L.M. Alif. Laam. Mim. Allah, Aleem - the Knower, Latif - the Unfathomable, Majeed - the Magnificent, knows and understands your needs.
22 This Book is the Guidance you asked for! There is absolutely no doubt concerning its authority and authenticity. This Divine Writ, Al-Qur?an, is a Monograph that finds its own way from your mind to your heart. And you will soon notice, as you proceed, that this Scripture leaves no lingering doubts in a sincere, seeking heart or mind. If you remember that this is a Book of Guidance, and hence, consult with it as such, the glittering reality will dawn upon you that this is a Beacon of Light! It is a Guide for all those who wish to journey through life in true honor and security.
548 To you (O Messenger) We have sent the Book in Sure Truth confirming the Divine Origin of whatever Scripture was before it. The Qur?an is the Watcher over the old Scriptures and guards the Truth in them. So, Judge between people by that which Allah has revealed to you and follow not their wishes away from the Truth that has come to you. Now has come to all of you the Divine Law, and a traced-out Way. If Allah had willed, He could have made all of you humans a single community. But, He decided to let you choose your own path after showing you the Truth, and thus test yourselves. Outdo one another in actions that serve humanity and thus grow your ?Self?. To Allah is your final destination; of all of you. Then He will make you understand where you differ.
Respectfully and briefly presented here are the thoughts of some great Judeo-Christian scholars about the authenticity of the Bible. Please know that no insult is intended. Critical studies by Muslim scholars are being carefully excluded.
IS BIBLE THE WORD OF GOD?
-
The Old and the New Testaments cannot be considered the Word of God. They are nothing but a human effort to connect with God. They are books about Him and not from Him. (The Annihilation of Man - Leslie Paul)
-
So, Pope Gregory 1, the Great had this to say in 590 CE Ignorance is the mother of devotion. (The Teachings of Jesus - Prof. K. U. Dean)
-
Question is often raised why the Jews and Christians take the irrational Bible as divine. Especially the Western mind has a lot to learn in this regard. Religion to them is a patrimony which they must respect because it has been inherited. (Warfare of Science and Theology - Andrew W. White)
-
It is important to know what the Church ignores (and hides) and why. (What Christians and Muslims Should Know About Themselves - Robert W. Mond)
-
The Protestants dropped 14 books from the Bible. (Is Bible The Bible? - Rev. Charles Darling - 1843 CE)
-
The ablest Christian writers and chronologists differ to the extent of 3,500 years in fixing the time of every event in the Bible. (Christianity before Christ - Kersey Graves)
-
All books of the Bible have been tampered with enormously. (The History of the Church - Bishop of Caesarea, Eusebius Pamphili, 260-339 CE)
-
The New Testament scripture was picked at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE, and ratified no sooner than at the Council of Hippo Regius in 393 CE, the Synod of Carthage in 397 CE, and the Carthaginian Council in 419 CE. (The Cross and the Crescent - Rev. Dr. Jerald F. Dirks)
-
But the Eastern Churches agreed with this proposed canon in 508 CE, only after the Syriac translation was modified catering to their demands. (Is Bible God's Word? - Joseph Webb)
-
The Council of Nicea was convened by Emperor Constantine in 325 CE to formulate a uniform Christian doctrine. It began with 2,048 delegates but 1,730 of them had to be turned out for grave disputes. The remaining 318 delegates failed to reach an agreement as to which ones of the 5,000 scriptural writings should be authorized by the Church. Eventually, all the writings were placed on the floor in a 'closed' room. One morning found some books and letters lying on the table. They were taken as holy and, thus, canonized! History is silent about the mysteries of those nights. (Historical Aspects of the Council of Nicea - Rev. Isaac Boyle)
-
The Old Testament has been subjected to human addition and deletions. Many of the stories in it are mere fiction. (Valentine's Jewish Encyclopedia)
-
The ultimate selection of the books to be included in the Old Testament was a human, and not divine, decision. (Judaism as Creed and Life - Joseph Sullivan)
-
Joseph Lewis opens his masterpiece book, The Bible Unmasked (1926) thus This book is dedicated in all seriousness to rabbis, priests and ministers, in the hope that it may bring them to realize the fraud they are perpetrating by preaching the Bible as the Word of God, and as a moral and intellectual guide for the human race.
-
-
Peace, and welcome Oneway,
You stated
I do not wish to offend, but to gain greater understanding, so I respectfully ask for your patience and consideration as I frame my thoughts in this post.
OK
I have read about the life of Mohammed. His actions, including all the violence, his relationship with Aisha, etc., persuade me that he could not possibly have been a messenger of God as surely God's messengers are held to higher standards of behavior.
As has been established, the alleged history of Muhammad is unreliable and not accepted as a true account by myself, and many here.
I have also studied the life of Jesus Christ. In Him I find no flaw. Yet, Mohammed asks us to believe that Jesus was a mere prophet and not the Son of God as Jesus himself claimed.
You say you are interested in the Muslim perspective, so here is one Muslim's perspective. It is well known that Jesus himself did not author the Bible. So, to say that "Jesus himself claimed" is moot, since it is not his words in the Bible but someone else's account.
Mohammed's position just doesn't hold up and it seems so obvious to me that I'm amazed any educated person with a desire to seek truth could remain a Muslim.
You have failed to explain what this position is.
Those who claim Islam is a religion of peace must intentionally ignore very specific instructions in the Quran to the contrary
Yet, you yourself ask that we look at the "whole story" of the Bible. And you yourself say that you don't take the Bible literally. So, why the double standard? Do you intentionally ignore the specific instructions in the Bible that are contrary to Jesus' message of peace?
Of course, many devices are used to justify or rationalize such problems away, for example the concept that Mohammed's later revelations supercede his earlier ones.
This is unheard of. Please post a reference to this claim.
Surely both Christians and Muslims, like men of all faiths, have done and will continue to do much wrong in the world. That's part of the human condition. So I say judge a faith by its founder and his teachings, not solely by people who claim to be followers of the faith. And when that is applied to Islam, I cannot possibly conclude that there is even a remote chance that Islam is true.
What is true, is that humanity is flawed. So, while you seem to present a stance of objectivity, what shines through in your post is a biased view of Islam. No biggie, you are a human after all. For once, however, it would be nice to see someone looking for common ground, instead of "my religion is more true than yours".
I encourage all on this board to do their homework and prayerfully seek God's guidance in their search for truth.
The fact that we're here, exchanging thoughts and ideas, should testify to the fact that most already do what you've asked. It is a bit insulting to assume otherwise.
The bottom line, Oneway, is that every person on Earth has been indoctrinated in some shape or form. No one got the chance to choose their indoctrination. We believe what we were taught to believe. In my opinion, it takes courage and tremendous energy to deprogram that damage. That's what most here are trying to do. Have you ever called your own faith into question, or do you intellectually somersault through the gaping holes in your faith?
Instead of asking what religion is more true, perhaps you should be asking what truth spans all religions.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace,
I've sort of just browsed throught this topic.
Oneway, you are christian, and have come here to convert us. You've believed that you are on solid ground and have turned every stone to prove muslims wrong.
This is my impression of you, if that is indeed the case then come out and say it. The only judge you need to worry about is God.
Now moving onto the whole Jesus, Mohammed comparison.
You state that through his life's work that Jesus proved he was a messenger/son of God. And that through Mohammed's work, he has nothing to do with God.
You speak of the Quran coming into contradiction with Jesus' teachings, thus it cannot be part of the Abrahamic religion.
But I ask you, the New Testament comes into a lot of contradiction with the Old Testament. Jesus taught love, compassion, peace, but have you ever read the Old Testament?????
There is quite a bit of vengeful wrath going around in it. But doesn't Jesus claim to be a descendant of Jewish prophets????? Will his view/outlook on life comes into direct contradiction with what those before him have done/said? So are we to believe Jesus, or is he another con artist on a get rich quick scheme?
Then we have the issue of you claiming that you have studied Jesus' life. So which books have you read????
Have you only read the bible????
what about the other books that the Catholic Church did not accept as part of the bible?? Books that were in the bible but removed at a later date. Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure one of them was the Gospel of Thomas (or whatever it's called).
My last point about Jesus being the son of God. Christians quite proudly point to his saying of-
"He without sin should cast the first stone"
Jesus is God's son, he was sacrificed in pure form, for the forgiveness of our sin's.
But I ask, if he was pure and without sin, why didn't he cast the first stone?
You claim to have read and read and found 'disgusting' truths about Mohammed.
You're here not wanting to argue about the validity of the hadiths, but my friend that is the core, central issue here.
You know what I'm going to write a bunch of hadiths about Jesus.
Hadiths of Jesus
Hadith number 1.
esimsek100 was heard mentioning that Jesus revealed to him in private-
"I'm only in this religion business to make a quick buck. The son of god???? Pffft, I can't believe that people actually believe that nonsense about God"
Hadith number 2.
esimsek100 reported that he saw the son of God stealing an apple then selling it, making a quick buk
Now why aren't my hadiths considered authentic???????
Answer that question and you'll see why I don't believe in the sunnah and hadiths.
The legitmacy of the hadiths in indeed a very vital subject in determining who Mohammed was
-
Peace
I found this in my archive that was sent to me by a muslim brother "his name is Usamah Abdullah"...
...What about John 81-11? Does it really justify fornication, adultery and pornography as many Christians believe?
Let us look at John 81-11 ...Many Christians use these verses to justify fornication and pornography.
many Christians justify that with Bible?
what Christians? where? from which branch of Christianity?
did the person who sent you these words provide some proofs or he simply wrote that and you believed it?I am not denying it, I can't know everything the millions of Christians in the world are doing but the ones I know never said there is the option of excusing that with Bible words , and without some kind of proofs it looks to me just gratuitous slander.
-
Peace esimsek100
Peace,
Oneway, you are christian, and have come here to convert us. You've believed that you are on solid ground and have turned every stone to prove muslims wrong.This is my impression of you, if that is indeed the case then come out and say it. The only judge you need to worry about is God.
With all due respect dude, I think oneway made really clear in his posts that he didnt post here to convert us, but to debate, which is a good thing.
I dont know why we always get so nervous when a believer of another faith comes and confronts us with allegedly contradictions and asks us about our understanding of Islam. If he sees contradictions - whats the point? we can tell him why we dont see a contradiction and thats it.I agree with oneway that the picture drawn of Mohammed in the ahadith is a violent one and thus he wonders where is the peace in Islam. And its right, that also in the Quran there are ayas which speak about fighting. In which they connection they stand, how we understand it, thats our turn to explain.
There is a reason why oneway chose this website to start his discussion. We shouldnt react as the traditional muslims - we should be more tolerate in those things.
Best regards
warda -
Peace warda and all. Well said warda ! I will agree with and second that. Welcome oneway. ) Peace.
-
Peace All,
2130
Yusuf Ali
And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.2135
Yusuf Ali
They say "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God."395
Yusuf Ali
Say "God speaketh the Truth follow the religion of Abraham, the sane in faith; he was not of the Pagans."4125
Pickthal
Who is better in religion than he who surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good (to men) and followeth the tradition of Abraham, the upright ? Allah (Himself) chose Abraham for friend.6161
Pickthal
Say Lo! As for me, my Lord hath guided me unto a straight path, a right religion, the community of Abraham, the upright, who was no idolater.1238
Yusuf Ali
"And I follow the ways of my fathers,- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and never could we attribute any partners whatever to God that (comes) of the grace of God to us and to mankind yet most men are not grateful.16123
Pickthal
And afterward We inspired thee (Muhammad, saying) Follow the religion of Abraham, as one by nature upright. He was not of the idolaters.Just wanted to point out that Muhammad wasnt the Founder of Islaam..GOD was.Yet its called the Religion of Abraham.That religion being named Islaam(Submission to Allah) and those that follow it Muslims(One who submits)..
2278
Sher Ali
And strive in the cause of Allah as it behoves you to strive for it. HE has chosen you and has laid no hardship upon you in the matter of religion; so follow the faith of your father Abraham; HE has named you Muslims both before and in this Book, so that the Messenger may be a witness over you, and you may be witnesses over mankind. Therefore observe Prayer and pay the Zakaat, and hold fast to Allah. HE is your Protector and an Excellent Protector and an Excellent Helper !4213
Pickthal
He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).Peace!
-
Peace all,
Oneway, if you insist on stating a position, you cannot back out of posting the evidence for your assertions. You cannot say that Muhammad said evil things then say that you do not want to talk about the evil things he said. Your position is quite silly. If you depend on the hadith to verify your reasoning that Muhammad is an evil man, then you must also use the same ridiculous body of work to verify that he was a saint. The idea the Aisha was 6 or whatever is internally contradictory to the body of hadith that it comes from.That's fair and that's the kind of feedback I was looking for. Certainly the most egregious claims against Mohammed come from the hadiths and it was those to which I primarily referred in my original post. So, as I've said before here, if you reject the validity of the hadiths, then that does away with most of that argument, at least in this forum. Muslims that do not reject the hadiths would have a much more difficult time explaining away Mohammed's alleged behavior therein.
Also, the verses that you fail to post are probably taken way out of context, which I am sure you realize and that is why you do not want to post them.
I'm not intentionally withholding specific verses. Later when I have some time I'll put together a followup post with some specific ones that I think are problematic to address your concern here. I intended my original post to mainly focus on two things
-
Problems with Mohammed in the hadiths (which we've covered)
-
Problems with the Quran's take on Jesus
I posted hastily before realizing that many on this forum reject the hadiths. Learning that alone has been informative, so I appreciate the correction offered by many here on that point.
Then enquirer posed some questions regarding my views on Jesus and Christianity. In that discussion it certainly reads like I'm here to preach Christianity, but I am not. I was just trying to answer the questions that were asked.
Likewise, another poster, responded to that discussion and my original post by attacking Christianity and the Bible head on. I allowed myself to be drawn into a discussion defending Christianity which was not my original intent. I'm happy to discuss Christianity, but my real intent here is to learn what people on this forum believe about Islam and what light they can shed on the problems I have with Islam.
Obviously I'm one of many who are curious about Islam because of current events in the world. I have found myself being tempted to hate Muslims because of the overwhelmingly negative image I get from these events (terrorism, cartoon protests, etc.) even though I know not all Muslims think or behave like those involved in these events. So in exploring Islam I have encountered depictions of Mohammed from the hadiths that helped bolster my belief that Islam itself is wrong. Even so, as my faith teaches, I should love Muslims even if I think Islam is completely wrong. It is in that spirit that I am interested in what persuades people in this forum that Islam is right.
"The Quran says so" is no more persuasive an argument to me than me telling you Christianity is right because "the Bible says so". So I want to understand what in the teachings from Islam rings true to you more than other teachings or different from earlier teachings.
I agree with whoever said that "love thy neighbor as yourself" is a silly axiom. It doesn't really state anything specific nor does it tell you how to do so. It is also very subjective and impossible for human beings. The word "love" is subjective as is the method of "loving." Also, human beings are incapable of loving perfect strangers in any substantial manner, I am sorry to say. We are programmed to love those who we spend time with and who rub us the right way. That is sad, but true.
I disagree strongly with this and I think its a pedantic argument at best. Whenever we are charitable or kind to strangers we are expressing the love described by the golden rule. Selfishness is certainly something we have to learn to overcome, but that is a long way off from your view that humans are incapable of loving strangers. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary in spite of all the bad things that happen in the world.
As for the supposed "life of Jesus" that your rely on, can you state a reason for believing that it acurrately depicts the life of that person named Jesus? It is commonly known that neither the writers of the gospels nor paul actually met Jesus, so how would they know what he did or who he was? Even if they did, the information in the gospels about Jesus is so mutually contradictory that no intelligent person could be led to think them reliable. It is even more ridiculous when we realize that the gospels only account for about 7yrs of Jesus' life even though he lived for 3 decades. So, do provide your evidence...
-ichephrenThat's not accurate. The gospel authors include disciples of Christ that lived and worked closely with him. Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus, according to the Biblical account. I have read about some of the supposed contradictions in the New Testament or elsewhere in the Bible and I find most of them easy to explain when considered in the full context of the passages being challenged. I am sure you have read critiques of the Quran that seem similarly shallow to you -- that's what I want to avoid here and why I haven't been posting specific passages from websites slamming the Quran.
But, more importantly, no one claims the Bible is literally God's word, spoken verbatim by Him and written down by men, as is claimed for the Quran. So, to me, the Quran has to pass a more rigorous test for consistency and authenticity because it is claimed to be God's directly dictated word, not a collection of writings by men that are believed to be divinely inspired as in the case of the Bible, which is part of the reason I do not believe in literal interpretation of the Bible.
-
-
Peace,
I've sort of just browsed throught this topic.
Oneway, you are christian, and have come here to convert us. You've believed that you are on solid ground and have turned every stone to prove muslims wrong.
This is my impression of you, if that is indeed the case then come out and say it. The only judge you need to worry about is God.
Now moving onto the whole Jesus, Mohammed comparison....
See my recent post -- I'm sorry if you got the impression that I'm here trying to convert Muslims, but I can see how you could get that impression from some of the other threads in this discussion. And I appreciate the argument against the validity of the hadiths.
On your questions about the source of my understanding regarding Jesus, I grew up here in the US in a rural town, attending a Southern Baptist church. As you probably know, Southern Baptists are not exactly the most progressive thinking denomination of protestant Christianity. smile But I learned the basics there. In college I took a course in the history of Christianity that was well taught and included a variety of material (the Bible itself played a small role in the course).
Later I explored the Baha'i faith and began to learn a bit about Islam there. Ultimately, the Baha'i faith just didn't ring true to me and I returned to my Christian roots. For a time I put forth little effort in growing in my faith. Recently I have begun to explore deeply once again and, as I said in a recent post, current events have led me to desire a greater understanding of Islam. So here I am.
-
Dear OneWay,
Peace and blessings!
Shall we follow the human-made Laws as they exist today or that which existed a hundred years ago and got replaced by the current law? The Final Revelation of God, Al-Quran is the Watcher over previous scriptures. It corrects that which has been tampered with. The answer could be very long, but let's have the Qur'an deal with it by itself.
21 A.L.M. Alif. Laam. Mim. Allah, Aleem - the Knower, Latif - the Unfathomable, Majeed - the Magnificent, knows and understands your needs.
22 This Book is the Guidance you asked for! There is absolutely no doubt concerning its authority and authenticity. This Divine Writ, Al-Qur?an, is a Monograph that finds its own way from your mind to your heart. And you will soon notice, as you proceed, that this Scripture leaves no lingering doubts in a sincere, seeking heart or mind. If you remember that this is a Book of Guidance, and hence, consult with it as such, the glittering reality will dawn upon you that this is a Beacon of Light! It is a Guide for all those who wish to journey through life in true honor and security.
548 To you (O Messenger) We have sent the Book in Sure Truth confirming the Divine Origin of whatever Scripture was before it. The Qur?an is the Watcher over the old Scriptures and guards the Truth in them. So, Judge between people by that which Allah has revealed to you and follow not their wishes away from the Truth that has come to you. Now has come to all of you the Divine Law, and a traced-out Way. If Allah had willed, He could have made all of you humans a single community. But, He decided to let you choose your own path after showing you the Truth, and thus test yourselves. Outdo one another in actions that serve humanity and thus grow your ?Self?. To Allah is your final destination; of all of you. Then He will make you understand where you differ.
Respectfully and briefly presented here are the thoughts of some great Judeo-Christian scholars about the authenticity of the Bible. Please know that no insult is intended. Critical studies by Muslim scholars are being carefully excluded.
IS BIBLE THE WORD OF GOD?
-
The Old and the New Testaments cannot be considered the Word of God. They are nothing but a human effort to connect with God. They are books about Him and not from Him. (The Annihilation of Man - Leslie Paul)
-
So, Pope Gregory 1, the Great had this to say in 590 CE Ignorance is the mother of devotion. (The Teachings of Jesus - Prof. K. U. Dean)
-
Question is often raised why the Jews and Christians take the irrational Bible as divine. Especially the Western mind has a lot to learn in this regard. Religion to them is a patrimony which they must respect because it has been inherited. (Warfare of Science and Theology - Andrew W. White)
-
It is important to know what the Church ignores (and hides) and why. (What Christians and Muslims Should Know About Themselves - Robert W. Mond)
-
The Protestants dropped 14 books from the Bible. (Is Bible The Bible? - Rev. Charles Darling - 1843 CE)
-
The ablest Christian writers and chronologists differ to the extent of 3,500 years in fixing the time of every event in the Bible. (Christianity before Christ - Kersey Graves)
-
All books of the Bible have been tampered with enormously. (The History of the Church - Bishop of Caesarea, Eusebius Pamphili, 260-339 CE)
-
The New Testament scripture was picked at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE, and ratified no sooner than at the Council of Hippo Regius in 393 CE, the Synod of Carthage in 397 CE, and the Carthaginian Council in 419 CE. (The Cross and the Crescent - Rev. Dr. Jerald F. Dirks)
-
But the Eastern Churches agreed with this proposed canon in 508 CE, only after the Syriac translation was modified catering to their demands. (Is Bible God's Word? - Joseph Webb)
-
The Council of Nicea was convened by Emperor Constantine in 325 CE to formulate a uniform Christian doctrine. It began with 2,048 delegates but 1,730 of them had to be turned out for grave disputes. The remaining 318 delegates failed to reach an agreement as to which ones of the 5,000 scriptural writings should be authorized by the Church. Eventually, all the writings were placed on the floor in a 'closed' room. One morning found some books and letters lying on the table. They were taken as holy and, thus, canonized! History is silent about the mysteries of those nights. (Historical Aspects of the Council of Nicea - Rev. Isaac Boyle)
-
The Old Testament has been subjected to human addition and deletions. Many of the stories in it are mere fiction. (Valentine's Jewish Encyclopedia)
-
The ultimate selection of the books to be included in the Old Testament was a human, and not divine, decision. (Judaism as Creed and Life - Joseph Sullivan)
-
Joseph Lewis opens his masterpiece book, The Bible Unmasked (1926) thus This book is dedicated in all seriousness to rabbis, priests and ministers, in the hope that it may bring them to realize the fraud they are perpetrating by preaching the Bible as the Word of God, and as a moral and intellectual guide for the human race.
Thanks, but this is basically "the Quran is true because it says so and the Bible is not because these men say so." That's not a persuasive argument for the truthfulness of Islam.
-