Judge a faith by its founder, not by its followers
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Peace nabi. Some zen Buddhists claim that we are all one,that there is no seperation or sperate ego except in our illusions..(All things are related,and constantly changing.) Christian gnostics; some(like mystics.)claimed we are part of the divine.(as far as i know.) Ps; a gnostic is not the same as an agnostic.
Peace all. -
Peace nabi. I will get you some book-titles and references if i have time.
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Yet, Mohammed asks us to believe that Jesus was a mere prophet and not the Son of God as Jesus himself claimed.
Greetings oneway,
This is a premature statement, as Islam?s ?prophet? never once states anywhere in their entire book of faith that he wrote any word contained within its pages.
Further, nowhere within it pages will you find that he ?dictated? it to anyone.
This is Muslim myth.
The Koranic facts are thus
? It claims to be no more than a translated copy of the previous Jewish & Christian scriptures
? It claims that Jesus is the Son of God
? It claims that Jesus was Crucified
? It claims that Jesus was Resurrected
? It claims that Jesus occupies and is obeyed at the Throne
? It proclaims the Trinity
? It proclaims that Jesus is God Almighty
In short?
Islam has almost entirely distorted and abrogated their very own book of faith over the centuries as their native Arabic tongue has deteriorated to the point of blasphemy.
Islam lost the original recipe?
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lol lol lol lol
That was one hell of a laugh
Thanks mister smart
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The Koranic facts are thus
.....? It proclaims that Jesus is God Almighty
Kindly post the verse , please.
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Yet, Mohammed asks us to believe that Jesus was a mere prophet and not the Son of God as Jesus himself claimed.
Greetings oneway,
This is a premature statement, as Islam?s ?prophet? never once states anywhere in their entire book of faith that he wrote any word contained within its pages.
Further, nowhere within it pages will you find that he ?dictated? it to anyone.
This is Muslim myth.
The Koranic facts are thus
? It claims to be no more than a translated copy of the previous Jewish & Christian scriptures
? It claims that Jesus is the Son of God
? It claims that Jesus was Crucified
? It claims that Jesus was Resurrected
? It claims that Jesus occupies and is obeyed at the Throne
? It proclaims the Trinity
? It proclaims that Jesus is God Almighty
In short?
Islam has almost entirely distorted and abrogated their very own book of faith over the centuries as their native Arabic tongue has deteriorated to the point of blasphemy.
Islam lost the original recipe?
WTH??!! Is it full moon?
peace
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Hello Public
Let?s put this case to bed with a final comment from me to this subject. The subject we have in hand is a claim by a Christian that by comparing Mohammad to Jesus, Mohammad will fall far behind as a violent man who should not be followed by millions of Muslims, while Jesus was a true loving god and should be followed
The problem that the blind will never see is this, if they say Jesus is god, then how come they compare their god with a human he created?, see a god can?t be compared with a human because the god should had created this human along with its properties from the first place, so the argument presented by them is actually an insult to their god Jesus.
But we saw clearly that the Bible and its original authors never suggested that Jesus is god, he was consistently referred to as the servant of God, the Christians never provided a conclusive evidence that Jesus is god, and they will never be able to because the truth is, Jesus is a man exactly like me and you. who has to give account to our God, exactly like me and you.
My argument to this thread that indirectly attacked Mohammad and Muslims was very simple indeed, I used their own Bible to ask them wondering, what the hell is going on here?, your Bible is showing David as a pervert, they like to call their god Jesus ?the Son of David?, what a confusing laugh that is, another degradation to their man made god, we don?t need to go through it again in details, the bottom line is, they got caught red handed and ironically they accuse us of what they got caught red handed with.
Now let?s see what the Quran said about the great prophet Lut, another prophet that was insulted, degraded and portrayed as a drunk and confused man in the wise and holy Bible, my refute to that was simple again, prophet Lut was a righteous man like no average human (me and you), in no way he drank alcohol and certainly he never slept with his own daughters
The Quran tells about a few prophets including prophet Lut
83- And this was Our argument which we gave to Ibrahim against his people; We exalt in dignity whom We please; surely your Lord is Wise, Knowing.
84- We gave him Isaac and Jacob all (three) guided and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron thus do We reward those who do good
85- And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias all in the ranks of the righteous
86- And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lut and to all We gave favour above the nations
(83)
(84)
(86)
-> Verse 83, we can clearly read that Abraham had his own people with him ?And this was Our argument which we gave to Ibrahim against his people?, so Abraham was not alone but with his people
-> Verse 84, is mentioning a few prophets by names who came from Abraham progeny ?We gave him Isaac and Jacob?, and all three were righteous men ? all (three) guided?, Noah also was righteous, how couldn?t be if they were appointed by Allah?, ?and before him, We guided Noah,? and even the prophets who came from Noah progeny were righteous ? and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron?, all these prophets were dealt differently than an average human being because ? thus do We reward those who do good?, see, those who do good
-> Verse 85, the list of the righteous prophets continues on And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias, they all righteous prophets and ranked higher than an average human being ? all in the ranks of the righteous?
-> Verse 86, the list continues and we read the name of Lut joining these righteous prophets in their high rank? And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot?, all were given favours above all nations due to their righteousness ? and to all We gave favour above the nations?
Now, it is very well known that prophet Lut and prophet Abraham were relatives and living at the same time, the Bible mentioned it and the Quran confirmed it
26- But Lut had faith in him He said ?I will leave home for the sake of my Lord for He is Exalted in Might, and Wise.?
(26)
-> Verse 2926 is talking about prophet Lut who believed in Abraham message when Abraham told him about it ? But Lut had faith in him?, then Lut decided to migrate to another town (possibly nearby) ? said ?I will leave home for the sake of my Lord for He is Exalted in Might, and Wise.?, see how righteous Lut was?, he was a God fearing human and 100% a righteous messneger to some people in a nearby town.
A few verses after 29 26 we read
31- When Our Messengers came to Abraham with the good news, they said ?We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township for truly they are (addicted to) crime.?
32- He said ?But there is Lut there.? They said ?Well do we know who is there we will certainly save him and his famil,- except his wife she is of those who lag behind!?
33- And when Our Messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account, and felt himself powerless (to protect) them but they said ?Fear thou not, nor grieve we are (here) to save thee and thy following, except thy wife she is of those who lag behind.?
(31)
(32)
(33)
-> Verse 31, is telling us how the angels stopped by Abraham before they headed to Lut's town to destroy it ? When Our Messengers came to Abraham with the good news, they said ?We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township for truly they are (addicted to) crime.?
-> Verse 32, Abraham worried about Lut ?He said ?But there is Lut there.??, that was a silly question by Abraham, well he was a very kind man, ?They said ?Well do we know who is there we will certainly save him and his famil,-?, see, Lut will be saved and his family, the Quran never suggested that they were only two daughters that were saved with him, however the Quran told us that his wife was cursed and won?t be saved ? except his wife she is of those who lag behind!?
-> Verse 33, then the angels headed to Lut and his people in a nearby town?And when Our Messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account, and felt himself powerless (to protect) them but they said ?Fear thou not, nor grieve we are (here) to save thee and thy following?, see, his family were mentioned ?with no specific ones mentioned? that they will be saved, but look how consistent the Quran is, ? except thy wife she is of those who lag behind., she was a homosexual activist
The Quran tells us in anoter location about the same incident of the angels stopping by Abraham to give him a message from Allah and at the same time to inform him with what is about to happen to Lut?s village and its people, we read above that Abraham was worried about Lut, in here the Quran tells us that Abraham was also worried about Lut?s people ?possibly including the homos?, He was a very kind and compassionate man as we will read
74- When fear had passed from (the mind of) Abraham and the glad tidings had reached him, he began to plead with us for Lut's people.
75- For Abraham was, without doubt, forbearing (of faults), compassionate, and given to look to Allah.
76- O Abraham! Seek not this. The decree of thy Lord hath gone forth for them there cometh a penalty that cannot be turned back!
77- When Our messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account and felt himself powerless (to protect) them. He said ?This is a distressful day.?
(74)
(75)
(76)
(77)
-> Verse 74, tells us that Abraham tried to argue with the angels to spare Lut?s people ?When fear had passed from (the mind of) Abraham and the glad tidings had reached him, he began to plead with us for Lut's people. ?, some of you may say, how come Abraham is more compassionate than Allah?, my reply is simple, please don?t do the same silly mistake as the Christians did BY COMAPRING A GOD WITH A HUMAN THAT HE CREATED, There is no change to Allah laws, anyone who rebels against Him is subject to the same divine laws., this is actually a strong argument against the homosexual activists
-> Verse 75, is telling us how compassionate Abraham was ?For Abraham was, without doubt, forbearing (of faults), compassionate, and given to look to Allah.?
-> Verse 76, but Allah does not care how compassionate we are when it comes to His decrees and laws, he was ordered to stop his pleas ?O Abraham! Seek not this.?, why?, because ?The decree of thy Lord hath gone forth for them there cometh a penalty that cannot be turned back!?, surely no change in Allah?s laws and decrees.
-> Verse 77, then the angels went to Lut?s village to execute Allah?s decree? When Our messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account and felt himself powerless (to protect) them. He said ?This is a distressful day.??, there is no way to argue that when Lu?ts village was destroyed, many other humans were living at the same time in other places, so the argument that it was a necessity for his daughters to sleep was him falls hard and sinks.
Prophet Lut was a righteous man, He was also given Wisdom and Knowledge from Allah, there is no way he drank alcohol and slept with his own daughters
74- And to Lut, too, We gave Wisdom and Knowledge, and We saved him from the town which practised abominations truly they were a people given to Evil, a rebellious people.
75- And We admitted him to Our Mercy for he was one of the Righteous.
(74)
(75)
-> See, Allah gave the followings favours to prophet Lut
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?We gave Wisdom and Knowledge?
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?We saved him from the town which practised abominations?
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?And We admitted him to Our Mercy?
-> These favours were given to Lut because ?for he was one of the Righteous.?, this is a character reference by Allah about prophet Lut, how dare these sick humans say, he got drunk and slept with his own daughters?
It didn?t even happen when Adam was created, it didn?t even happen when Noah?s people were destroyed while the Bible insists that it was a global flood and not a localised one.
There is no doubt that prophet Lut was a righteous man, in fact there is no doubt that whoever was saved with him was also a righteous human
Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said Enter both the fire with those who enter.
(10)
-> See how the above verse clearly says ?Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve and the wife of Lut?, despite they were married to righteous servants (Noah and Lut) ? they were both under two of Our righteous servants?, however, ? acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said Enter both the fire with those who enter.?, again no change to Allah laws
How come Allah destroys a whole village because a man sleeps with a man, then cause humanity to propagate again through a father sleeping with his own daughters?, while telling us that this is a no no deed
22- And marry not woman whom your fathers married, except what has already passed; this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way.
23- Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
(22)
(23)
-> Verse 22, even Allah stopped us from marrying women that our fathers married in the past ? - And marry not woman whom your fathers married?, i.e. if my father dies, my step mother will stay forbidden to me for life, and because this was a new law and the humans used to marry their step mothers when their fathers die, Allah has forgiven what already took place ?except what has already passed?. i.e. whoever was already married to his step mother should not divorce her after the revelation of this law, how wise Allah laws are?, obviously Allah doesn?t want existing families to be broken apart after He revealed this verse, then Allah is telling us that to marry our step mothers is an indecent act, imagine a daughter carry the child of her father, this is more sickening ? this surely is indecent and hateful, and it is an evil way?
-> Please keep in mind that, the previous verse was a new law for a habit that Allah wanted us to stop, that is why He forgave the past ? except what has already passed? ? ?, in verse 23 we read about what was already forbidden and known to be forbidden except another new law for another habit ? Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins?, I believe that this was an existing law that were commonly known at the time, which clearly says that ?forbidden to you are your daughters?, in addition to a huge list of all forbidden humans to have sex with them, Lut must have known that law for sure because he was given the knowledge and hikmah (wisdom), how come Allah forbids all these far relatives then makes daughters to sleep with their father for humnaity to continue on earth?, but when it comes to new law that is forbidding marrying two sisters at the same time which was also another habit at the time, we see that Allah forgave what already passed ? and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed?, see how Allah detailed this important law in His Quran.
Let?s see what Allah said about Mohammad in His Quran
3- And most surely you shall have a reward never to be cut off.
4- And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality.
(3)
(4)
-> It seems Mohammad worked and suffered really hard to deliver Allah message, therefore Allah is telling us about Mohammad reward ? And most surely you shall have a reward never to be cut off?, then Allah is telling us that Mohammad? And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality.?, this testimony by Allah is enough to refute any non sense, lies, and fabrications we hear about this great man.Allah deliberately made Mohammad this way so people listen to him, this is another favour that was given to Mohammad
Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.
(159)
See, how great of a man Mohammad was?
Those who spread lies and fabrications about the great prophets like Jesus, David, Lut, Moses and Mohammad are nothing but cattle, dumb, deaf and blind who are only in the process of securing their horrible and permenant seat in the hell fire
And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.
(179)
Well, those ignorant are really worse than the cattle, at least the cattle do what they were created for, but those ignorant and arrogant enemy of Allah, only rebel against Him and His messages
Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path.
(44)
It does not matter how well spoken they are, it does not matter how educated they are, it does not matter how polite they are, they are worse astray in Path. And they must join the hell fire with the wives of prophet Noah and prophet Lut
Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said Enter both the fire with those who enter.
(10)
Peace to All
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Salaam,
I can see people here jabbing about something without knowledge.
First of all, son of God is a jewish term still used by them today, you people forget that the idolator-christians came from the greek corner, not the jewish corner.
The greeks and romans were used to their gods having children, so if you say to them god had a child, they take it litteraly, when a jew says this, he means it methaphorically. As being a creation, a child of God.
So Muhammed didn't correct Jesus, nor did Jesus say anything wrong. And we have to keep in mind that the Gospels we know now as part of the Bible, are versions revised by the greek/roman christians, and are mixed writings of true gospels and mitra-legends.
We are all children of God, i am a son of God, but you have to understand how literaly you understand this.
God says in the Quran, we are His servants, does this mean we bring His tea and cook for Him? No.....
Peace Arnoldyasin
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Hi, all,
Found this reference in another post on this forum
http//www.islamicperspectives.com/HadithProject2.htm
Interesting reading and directly on topic to this thread. The article describes Quranic support for the concept that the messenger is more than just a delivery man. (See the mailman/message discussion earlier in this thread.)
Regards,
oneway -
Peace oneway. Very interesting read.I would reccommend others to read it too. Thanks.
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Yes interresting read, i also believe it is in the middle. The only laws can come from the Quran, but wisdom can come from anywhere on earth. But he also uses the assumption you cannot get a complete form of salat and other practices out of the Quran, while we know you can, so these convictions cloud this persons judgement on the subject. Atleast it shows that you cannot dismiss the recorded history in total, but also can't use it as guidance. It shows people or starting to investigate more, like we say in Holland, the ball has started rolling.........
Peace
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Hi, all,
Found this reference in another post on this forum
http//www.islamicperspectives.com/HadithProject2.htm
Interesting reading and directly on topic to this thread. The article describes Quranic support for the concept that the messenger is more than just a delivery man. (See the mailman/message discussion earlier in this thread.)
Regards,
onewaycheckout these articles too
The Hadith Conspiracy and Distortion of Islam www.hadith.rationalreality.com
The Authority of the Quran http//members.tripod.com/lebou/authorityof.htm
peace.
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Hello Public
A desperate attempt by a christian trying to tell the muslims that we must believe in the corrupt hadith as they believe in the corrupt bible lol lol
that was one hell of a laugh
ok, the muslims should only accept the hadith that pass the common sense and the Quran, other than that it must be thrown in the rubbish bin
we muslims are not like the christians, we don't believe in conjecture as well we don't believe in non sense like a god being bashed by humans and most importantly we use our brains to qualify things that make sense
lol
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Hello Public
please be aware that the guidance is only from the Quran
the hadith is only to explain a few practices and a few other things that believers will differ in it
Peace
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Hello
I have to say that my second last comment was pre mature as i sepnt all morning reading the 67 pages from the link posted by oneway, i printed them for easy read as I only scrolled through ikt quickly when I browsed the link
not sure why he posted it but ironically this is exactly what i stand for now and stood for all my life regarding the hadith and the Quran,
the book in this url refute both the traditionist and the Quran alone, and as I said from day one here i follow a fine line in between, that fine line is based on the common sense and the common sense suggest to me that to acceot any wisdom from any hearsay about the prophet then it must pass the Quran and the common sense together, in effect the Quran qualifies the hadith and not the other way around, i thought all my life that this simple logic is well known by most muslims but as i grew up i found the truth is quite different, hence my stand against the sunni but i won't let my anger over the sunni due to the corruption inserted by them to make me totally dismiss them, in fact there is a lot of good teachings in the hadith and as i said before, i read all the hadith books and can easily find which ones that may be corrupted and which ones can be acceoted as a mere teachng from this great prophet, it is pick and choose indeed, UNLIKE the case with the Quran which is a must take as a whole
peace and sorry for my premature comment
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Peace AhmedBahgat,
I think you should learn how to "chill"...Your posts really sound flaming and making people losing their mood to read the posts...I hope you don't get me wrong... He might be a Christian or whatever he is...but he still got the right to give his opinions and we must learn how to agree and disagree...Thanks
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Peace AhmedBahgat,
I think you should learn how to "chill"...Your posts really sound flaming and making people losing their mood to read the posts...I hope you don't get me wrong... He might be a Christian or whatever he is...but he still got the right to give his opinions and we must learn how to agree and disagree...Thanks
Peace bro
sorry mate, you don't know the full story, i really careless that he is a christian, a jew or a muslim, as long as the argument put with respect, his first comment was not put with respect rather was intimidating and I responded accordingly, i also believe that he admitted that he put his thread in the wrong manner
most of my friends are christians anyway and I was raised between them in cairo
secondly this guy is another member on another forum and so far my guess he is here to cause discord and my assumption will stay as such until proven otherwise
and for you knowledge, i don't loose my temper, this is just the normal me
and finally bro, regarding reading the posts, i guess you mean my posts, well honestely man, it makes no difference to me, i converyed what i wanted to convey and the people has the freedom to ignore what they want to ignore
peace be with you
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Peace AhmedBahgat,
I think you should learn how to "chill"...Your posts really sound flaming and making people losing their mood to read the posts...I hope you don't get me wrong... He might be a Christian or whatever he is...but he still got the right to give his opinions and we must learn how to agree and disagree...Thanks
Peace bro
sorry mate, you don't know the full story...
most of my friends are christians anyway...
secondly this guy is another member on another forum and so far my guess he is here to cause discord and my assumption will stay as such until proven otherwise
...
peace be with youwhatever
Anyone wanting the "full story" regarding this discussion thread need only read it in its entirety. I don't know why AhmedBahgat thinks I am someone else with whom he has an ongoing feud.
While my overall experience to date in this forum has been positive, with much thoughtful discussion and debate, it is disappointing that the moderators here tolerate AhmedBahgat's posting style. Such posts coupled with the absence of moderator intervention do little for this site's reputation as a forum for respectful and open discussion.
I'm sure AhmedBahgat will think this message is "one hell of a laugh," so maybe we should offer him suggestions so he can add a bit of variety to the closing insult he likes to include in his posts.
Instead of the much overused "one hell of a laugh", how 'bout mixing it up with some of these themes
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...one big stinky pile of poo poo!
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...the ravings of a son of a motherless goat! (credit to the authors of Three Amigos for this idea)
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...the Mother of all Guffaws!
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...I know you are, but what am I?! (a perennial favorite at our kids' elementary school)
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...proud to be a flamer.
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...your mother wears combat boots (under her Burka...but I didn't look!...I heard it from a sister in another forum.)
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...some of my friends are Christians. Hell, I even talked to a Jew once!
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...Peace, but not to you, 'cuz you don't think like I do
And so on. Come on folks, chip in and help! With a little effort we can help AhmedBahgat expand his repertoire substantially! wink
Happy flaming, AhmedBahgat! rotfl
Disclaimer This message is my opinion alone and should not be confused with posts by anyone else in any feud started by AhmedBahgat in any other forum on the World Wide Web. No reasonable people were insulted in the making of this post.
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