Judge a faith by its founder, not by its followers
-
Hello public
I wonder why an intellegent man needs an ignore button to ignore any one?
can't they just do it without a button?, see, it is another laugh
lol lol lol
Peace all, got to go to bed, too much laughs and i lost my voice already wink
-
Furthermore, I'm sure you would agree that we humans cannot deem what God "surely" would or would not do.
Peace.Peace CD,ALL
I Just wanted to add,that THIS is very true..While GOD knows all ,He still allows things to happen for certain reasons..
For Example
Christians believe GOD is all knowing(which is truth)..Yet He still created angels knowing that some would rebel and Lucifer would become Satan the Devil..God knew before hand that Adam and Eve would rebel and eat the fruit of the tree good and evil and therefore be cut off from the tree of Life,yet God still created them,God knew before hand that the majority of the people of the world would reject Him etc etc etc etc..yet He still created mankind.So Oneway,Using the argument that "why would GOD send prophets with a message knowing that the people would distort the message doesnt hold water"...
Peace
-
Peace jhamza. If god knew that people/lucifer would disobey him and spread suffering,why would he create them?(to suffer?!!)While at the same time he is the most merciful?And he wants to test us even though he knows the results?If he is all-powerful(and theoretically we cant be guided without him.) why doesnt he guide us to stop the suffering? Please explain this logic? Peace.
-
Hi, JHamza,
Thanks for your post...
Furthermore, I'm sure you would agree that we humans cannot deem what God "surely" would or would not do.
Peace.Peace CD,ALL
I Just wanted to add,that THIS is very true..While GOD knows all ,He still allows things to happen for certain reasons..
For Example
Christians believe GOD is all knowing(which is truth)..Yet He still created angels knowing that some would rebel and Lucifer would become Satan the Devil..God knew before hand that Adam and Eve would rebel and eat the fruit of the tree good and evil and therefore be cut off from the tree of Life,yet God still created them,God knew before hand that the majority of the people of the world would reject Him etc etc etc etc..yet He still created mankind.So Oneway,Using the argument that "why would GOD send prophets with a message knowing that the people would distort the message doesnt hold water"...
Peace
That is a well reasoned argument. I think the only difficulty I have with it is that, taken to its logical conclusion, God's gift of free will to us would essentially render God powerless to communicate with us because any of his messages could become distorted beyond repair. If we don't believe that God supernaturally protects the truths he wishes us to learn, then we can place no faith in the Bible, or the Quran, or any other supposedly holy message that has been touched by men with free will.
Just as God knows some will reject his messages, he also knows some will protect and defend his messages and I believe he helps these perpetuate his messages as a guide to us all.
Thanks.
/oneway
-
Peace jhamza. Sorry for all those questions at once. I hope i didnt misunderstand your post,if i did i apologise. oops Its just when i read it, this happened. shock Anyone else is free to take up those questions i posed.
Take it easy. Peace all. -
Peace jhamza. If god knew that people/lucifer would disobey him and spread suffering,why would he create them?(to suffer?!!)While at the same time he is the most merciful?And he wants to test us even though he knows the results?If he is all-powerful(and theoretically we cant be guided without him.) why doesnt he guide us to stop the suffering? Please explain this logic? Peace.
If I may, I'd like to reply to this question as well and I'll also look forward to JHamza's response.
This is basically the following view If God is all good and all powerful, yet evil (suffering) exists, then either God is not all good or He is not all powerful.
I think the key to this puzzle is God's gift of free will. While He knows what choice we will make, He still allows us the freedom to choose, even to the point of choosing to reject Him.
We create the evil and suffering when we (mankind and people individually) choose to disobey God. It is the product of our own wrongdoing, but God only created the possibility for us to choose, not the suffering itself.
Had God created a world without free will, then there would be no concept of right and wrong, love and hate, good and evil, because we would just be automatons unable to make any choices. And while one consequence of free will is suffering and evil, another is the opportunity to choose to obey and learn and grow spiritually closer to God in this life as preparation for the next.
I have heard some say that without growth, there is no meaningful life, and it seems we cannot experience growth without free will.
/oneway
-
Re Judge a faith by its founder, not by its followers
Do you judge your letters by the mailman who delivers them to you?
Well, I suppose I would if the mailman claimed to be delivering a message revealed to him directly from God. Wouldn't you?
smile
why would anyone ? it is God's message . not the mailman's own words . the mailman only delivers .
-
Peace jhamza. If god knew that people/lucifer would disobey him and spread suffering,why would he create them?(to suffer?!!)While at the same time he is the most merciful?And he wants to test us even though he knows the results?If he is all-powerful(and theoretically we cant be guided without him.) why doesnt he guide us to stop the suffering? Please explain this logic? Peace.
Peace enquirer,
I wasnt pointing the question to Muslims,But to OpenWay,because he mentioned why would God send Jesus with a message if HE knew it would be distorted and have to send Muhammad.And Oneway answered basically the question as for why GOD would do some of the things you asked..
Peace Bro,
-
Re Judge a faith by its founder, not by its followers
Do you judge your letters by the mailman who delivers them to you?
Well, I suppose I would if the mailman claimed to be delivering a message revealed to him directly from God. Wouldn't you?
smile
why would anyone ? it is God's message . not the mailman's own words . the mailman only delivers .
Because the mailman is the one claiming the message is from God. God has not communicated that to you separate from the message being delivered by the mailman in this hypothetical setup.
-
Peace One Way,
Hi, JHamza,
Thanks for your post...
That is a well reasoned argument. I think the only difficulty I have with it is that, taken to its logical conclusion, God's gift of free will to us would essentially render God powerless to communicate with us because any of his messages could become distorted beyond repair. If we don't believe that God supernaturally protects the truths he wishes us to learn, then we can place no faith in the Bible, or the Quran, or any other supposedly holy message that has been touched by men with free will.
Just as God knows some will reject his messages, he also knows some will protect and defend his messages and I believe he helps these perpetuate his messages as a guide to us all.
Thanks.
/oneway
Yes if you believe that all those messages that were sent was meant for all mankind,but I dont,I believe they were sent to their people,then they distorted the messages..when they wrote them down..The Quran was the only message sent to all Mankind therefor it has been protected from distortion.
-
Peace One Way,
Hi, JHamza,
Thanks for your post...
That is a well reasoned argument. I think the only difficulty I have with it is that, taken to its logical conclusion, God's gift of free will to us would essentially render God powerless to communicate with us because any of his messages could become distorted beyond repair. If we don't believe that God supernaturally protects the truths he wishes us to learn, then we can place no faith in the Bible, or the Quran, or any other supposedly holy message that has been touched by men with free will.
Just as God knows some will reject his messages, he also knows some will protect and defend his messages and I believe he helps these perpetuate his messages as a guide to us all.
Thanks.
/oneway
Yes if you believe that all those messages that were sent was meant for all mankind,but I dont,I believe they were sent to their people,then they distorted the messages..when they wrote them down..The Quran was the only message sent to all Mankind therefor it has been protected from distortion.
Understood, but on what, besides the contents of the Quran itself, do you base your belief that the Quran is the only message sent to all mankind?
-
Peace One Way,
Hi, JHamza,
Thanks for your post...
That is a well reasoned argument. I think the only difficulty I have with it is that, taken to its logical conclusion, God's gift of free will to us would essentially render God powerless to communicate with us because any of his messages could become distorted beyond repair. If we don't believe that God supernaturally protects the truths he wishes us to learn, then we can place no faith in the Bible, or the Quran, or any other supposedly holy message that has been touched by men with free will.
Just as God knows some will reject his messages, he also knows some will protect and defend his messages and I believe he helps these perpetuate his messages as a guide to us all.
Thanks.
/oneway
Yes if you believe that all those messages that were sent was meant for all mankind,but I dont,I believe they were sent to their people,then they distorted the messages..when they wrote them down..The Quran was the only message sent to all Mankind therefor it has been protected from distortion.
Understood, but on what, besides the contents of the Quran itself, do you base your belief that the Quran is the only message sent to all mankind?
Peace oneway,
On several things,science,nature,and even some from the Bible itself..
like where the Bible mentions "Hear O Isreal,The Lord thy God is One"its found in the OT,The NT And the Quran..The NT says that after Jesus would be sent the Comforter..that was referring to Muhammad etc etc..as for science go here http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/science.htmBut I could ask the same about the Bible.Where besides the Bible do you get the Bible is truth and meant for all mankind? When even in the Bible it mentions that the Apostles were warned not to go to the east?And that that Jesus was sent only to the lost House of Isreal.
-
Heres more about Muhammad
According to Deuteronomy 2115-17 the traditional rights and privileges of the first born son are not to be affected by the social status of his mother (being a "free" woman such as Sarah, Isaac's mother, or a "Bondwoman" such as Hagar, Ishmael's mother). This is only consistent with the moral and humanitarian principles of all revealed faiths.
The full legitimacy of Ishmael as Abraham's son and "seed" and the full legitimacy of his mother, Hagar, as Abraham's wife are clearly stated in Genesis 2113 and 163. After Jesus, the last Israelite messenger and prophet, it was time that God's promise to bless Ishmael and his descendants be fulfilled. Less than 600years after Jesus, came the last messenger of God, Muhammad, from the progeny of Abraham through Ishmael. God's blessing of both of the main branches of Abraham's family tree was now fullfilled. But are there additional corroborating evidence that the Bible did in fact foretell the advent of prophet Muhammad?The Prophet Like Unto Moses
Long time after Abraham, God's promise to send the long-awaited Messenger was repeated this time in Moses' words.
In Deuteronomy 1818, Moses spoke of the prophet to be sent by God who is
From among the Israelite's "brethren", a reference to their Ishmaelite cousins as Ishmael was the other son of Abraham who was explicitly promised to become a "great nation".A prophet like unto Moses. There were hardly any two prophets ,who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad. Both were given comprehensive law code of life, both encountered their enemies and were victors in miraculous ways, both were accepted as prophets/statesmen and both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlooks not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well (e.g. the natural birth, family life and death of Moses and Muhammad but not of Jesus, who was regarded by His followers as the Son of God and not exclusively a messenger of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslim belief Jesus was).
Deuteronomy 331-2 combines references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran. According to Genesis 2121, the wilderness of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled.
Indeed the King James version of the Bible mentions the pilgrims passing through the valley of Ba'ca in Psalms 844-6.Isaiah 421-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar? According to Genesis 2513, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.
For twenty-three years, God's words (the Qur'an) were truely put into Muhammad's mouth. He was not the "author" of the Qur'an. The Qur'an was dictated to him by Angel Gabriel who asked Muhammad to simply repeat the words of the Qur'an as he heard them.
Was it a coincidence that the prophet "like unto Moses" from the "brethren" of the Israelites (i.e. from the lshmaelites) was also described as one in whose mouth God will put his words and that he will speak in the name of God, (Deuteronomy 1818-20). Was it also a coincidence the "Paraclete" that Jesus foretold to come after Him was described as one who "shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak (John 1613)
Was it another coincidence that Isaiah ties between the messenger connected with Ke'dar and a new song (a scripture in a new language) to be sang unto the Lord (Isaiah 4210-11). More explicitly, prophesies Isaiah "For with stammering lips, and another tongue, will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 2811). This latter verse correctly describes the "stammering lips" of Prophet Muhammad reflecting the state of tension and concentration he went through at the time of revelation. Another related point is that the Qur'an was revealed in piece-meals over a span of twenty three years. It is interesting to compare this with Isaiah 2810 whichspeaks of the same thing.
Up to the time of Jesus , the Israelites were still awaiting for that prophet like unto Moses prophecied in Deuteronomy 1818. When John the Baptist came, they asked him if he was Christ and he said "no". They asked him if he was Elias and he said "no". Then, in apparent reference to Deuteronomy 1818, they asked him "Art thou that Prophet" and he answered, "no". (John 1 1 9-2 1).
In the Gospel according to John (Chapters 14, 15, 16) Jesus spoke of the "Paraclete" or comforter who will come after him, who will be sent by Father as another Paraclete, who will teach new things which the contemporaries of Jesus could not bear. While the Paraclete is described as the spirit of truth, (whose meaning resemble Muhammad's famous title Al-Amin, the trustworthy), he is identified in one verse as the Holy Ghost (John 1426). Such a designation is however inconsistent with the profile of that Paraclete. In the words of the Dictionary of the Bible, (Ed. J. Mackenzie) "These items, it must be admitted do not give an entirely coherent picture."
Indeed history tells us that many early Christians understood the Paraclete to be a man and not a spirit. This might explain the followings who responded to some who claimed, without meeting the criteria stipulated by Jesus, to be the awaited "Paraclete".
It was Prophet Muhammad who was the Paraclete, Comforter, helper, admonisher sent by God after Jesus. He testified of Jesus, taught new things which could not be borne at Jesus' time, he spoke what he heard (revelation), he dwells with the believers (through his well-preserved teachings). Such teachings will remain forever because he was the last messenger of God, the only Universal Messenger to unite the whole of humanity under God and on the path of PRESERVED truth. He did reprove the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgement (John 168-11)
Following the rejection of the last Israelite prophet, Jesus, it was about time that God's promise to make Ishmael a great nation be fulfilled
(Genesis 2113, 1In Matthew 2119-21, Jesus spoke of the fruitless fig tree (A Biblical symbol of prophetic heritage) to be cleared after being given a last chance of three years (the duration of Jesus' ministry) to give fruit. In a later verse in the same chapter, Jesus said "Therefore, say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof" (Matthew 2143). That nation of Ishmael's descendants (the rejected stone in Matthew 2142) which was victorious against all super-powers of its time as prophecied by Jesus "And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken, but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder" (Matthew 2144).
Says God as quoted by Moses
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 1819) -
Re Judge a faith by its founder, not by its followers
Do you judge your letters by the mailman who delivers them to you?
Well, I suppose I would if the mailman claimed to be delivering a message revealed to him directly from God. Wouldn't you?
smile
why would anyone ? it is God's message . not the mailman's own words . the mailman only delivers .
Because the mailman is the one claiming the message is from God. God has not communicated that to you separate from the message being delivered by the mailman in this hypothetical setup.
But that's exactly the case! D God wrote that letter to you personally, the human messenger is not the guide... the God is (2856). The human messenger is not the teacher, the God is (551-2). The human messenger is not with us... the God is. The human messenger is only that(1793)... a human being and a deliverer of the message.(599)You were asked, if you would judge your letters by the mailman who brought it to you. I think not. In most cases, in that analogy, you don't even know the mail man, or care about the postal service/company/truck that was used in the process, only that you got a letter and can't wait to read it.
Peace be with you.
-
Peace be upon you all,
Did the ALLEGED persons named "Muhammad" and "Jesus" FOUND a religion? I dont think the title of this thread is accurate.
Oneway, you have every right to question the nonsense that is promoted by those who dont study Life, much less the books they claim to follow.
However, the truth of the matter, for all of us , is that Jesus, nor Muhammad can be verified in history with facts. Many of these METAPHORICAL stories are much older than both the Bible and Quran.
The point is being missed, its not about Mine vs. Yours, its about getting to the Divine Wisdom underlying the Metaphor so that we can apply it and CHANGE OUR BEHAVIOR. Its about transceding EMOTIONAL RESPONSE, which many on this thread have failed to do. We have to give up this sectarian attitude of "mine" and "yours", we should all be investigating ALL ALLEGED GUIDANCE and VERIFYING IT.
Lastly, Oneway, I just wanted to share with you that "Muhammad" only means "one who is exalted" and is a character trait that all humans whould strive for, it is not a literal human figure. We should strive to eliminate blind belief, and VERIFY and LIVE TRUTH.
-
- And Abraham enjoined his sons and Jacob ?O my sons, God has selected the system for you, so do not die except as ones who have surrendered.?(Muslim)
- Or were you present when death came to Jacob and he told his sons ?Who shall you serve after I am gone??, they said ?Your god, and the god of your fathers Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac; One god and to Him we surrender.?
-
Peace idolfree and all. Thanks for a big injection of common sense,idolfree. !
I was almost getting emotional with the posts in here. . We should be learning and implementing from the 'all'.(God.) Not getting obsessed with parts of the all,and ignoring/refuting the other parts incorrectly due to closed-mindedness and ignorance...(ie sectarianism.) Life is one big scripture.
Peace all. -
Peace One Way,
Hi, JHamza,
Thanks for your post...
That is a well reasoned argument. I think the only difficulty I have with it is that, taken to its logical conclusion, God's gift of free will to us would essentially render God powerless to communicate with us because any of his messages could become distorted beyond repair. If we don't believe that God supernaturally protects the truths he wishes us to learn, then we can place no faith in the Bible, or the Quran, or any other supposedly holy message that has been touched by men with free will.
Just as God knows some will reject his messages, he also knows some will protect and defend his messages and I believe he helps these perpetuate his messages as a guide to us all.
Thanks.
/oneway
Yes if you believe that all those messages that were sent was meant for all mankind,but I dont,I believe they were sent to their people,then they distorted the messages..when they wrote them down..The Quran was the only message sent to all Mankind therefor it has been protected from distortion.
Understood, but on what, besides the contents of the Quran itself, do you base your belief that the Quran is the only message sent to all mankind?
Peace oneway,
On several things,science,nature,and even some from the Bible itself..
like where the Bible mentions "Hear O Isreal,The Lord thy God is One"its found in the OT,The NT And the Quran..The NT says that after Jesus would be sent the Comforter..that was referring to Muhammad etc etc..as for science go here http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/science.htmSee John chapter 14 in the Bible The "Comforter" Jesus is talking about is the Holy Spirit, not Mohammed.
"But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you." (John 1426 ASV)
There is an interesting writeup regarding this point at the following URL, which discusses problems with the translation from the original language that contribute to confusion on this point (see the first two paragraphs)
http//www.letusreason.org/Islam3.htm
But I could ask the same about the Bible.Where besides the Bible do you get the Bible is truth and meant for all mankind? When even in the Bible it mentions that the Apostles were warned not to go to the east?
Not sure if you can use the Bible to defend you position and then challenge its validity to question mine, which is essentially what the Quran does with its treatment of Jesus as discussed earlier in this thread... smile
...but here is my answer
- objective history, archeology, and science support the Bible (assuming a non-literal interpretation as with the Quran)
- the Bible is compilation of works from many authors, so its not quite an accurate comparison to suggest that it be held to the same scrutiny as the Quran for two reasons
- The Bible does not claim to be the literal revelation of God (except for exceptions previously noted like the book of Revelation and the Ten Commandments from the OT, etc.) To be crystal clear I understand that some Christians insist on literal interpretation of the Bible as written, but this is different from the Bible being the a literal revelation authored by God himself and merely put on paper by men. The Bible was authored by fallible men, and there are some problems in the Bible that result from this, but the core truths come shining through in spite of those issues because of God's guiding hand in the process.
- The fact that the Bible was written by many different authors at different times in history and includes predictive prophecies that specify actual events in space-time that are confirmed by objective history as well as later books of the Bible gives the Bible as a whole credibility as its message has survived a sort of peer-review process in the development of the later works as well as the assembly of the whole.
- but, it seems Islam must either claim that the Bible is corrupt or that it is generally truthful, but cherry picking things like the "comforter" discussion above to support Islam when desired, and then rejecting scriptures from the very same chapter that confirm Christ's divinity is problematic.
-
Re Judge a faith by its founder, not by its followers
Do you judge your letters by the mailman who delivers them to you?
Well, I suppose I would if the mailman claimed to be delivering a message revealed to him directly from God. Wouldn't you?
smile
why would anyone ? it is God's message . not the mailman's own words . the mailman only delivers .
Because the mailman is the one claiming the message is from God. God has not communicated that to you separate from the message being delivered by the mailman in this hypothetical setup.
But that's exactly the case! D God wrote that letter to you personally, the human messenger is not the guide... the God is (2856). The human messenger is not the teacher, the God is (551-2). The human messenger is not with us... the God is. The human messenger is only that(1793)... a human being and a deliverer of the message.(599)You were asked, if you would judge your letters by the mailman who brought it to you. I think not. In most cases, in that analogy, you don't even know the mail man, or care about the postal service/company/truck that was used in the process, only that you got a letter and can't wait to read it. )
Peace be with you.
This is a fine argument if the letter is from my Aunt Martha. But if the letter claims to be from God Himself, and, more precisely, it is the mailmain who penned the letter and who proclaims that the letter was revealed to him by God directly, no reasonable person would blindly accept that without evaluating the mailman's trustworthiness.
What I have just described is exactly the case with the Quran. You cannot refute this without using claims from the Quran itself which is circular reasoning.
Thanks.
/oneway
-
Hi, idolfree1,
I understand your post and I appreciate what you are saying...
Peace be upon you all,
Did the ALLEGED persons named "Muhammad" and "Jesus" FOUND a religion? I dont think the title of this thread is accurate.
Oneway, you have every right to question the nonsense that is promoted by those who dont study Life, much less the books they claim to follow.
However, the truth of the matter, for all of us , is that Jesus, nor Muhammad can be verified in history with facts. Many of these METAPHORICAL stories are much older than both the Bible and Quran.
The point is being missed, its not about Mine vs. Yours, its about getting to the Divine Wisdom underlying the Metaphor so that we can apply it and CHANGE OUR BEHAVIOR. Its about transceding EMOTIONAL RESPONSE, which many on this thread have failed to do. We have to give up this sectarian attitude of "mine" and "yours", we should all be investigating ALL ALLEGED GUIDANCE and VERIFYING IT.
Lastly, Oneway, I just wanted to share with you that "Muhammad" only means "one who is exalted" and is a character trait that all humans whould strive for, it is not a literal human figure. We should strive to eliminate blind belief, and VERIFY and LIVE TRUTH.
...but there is no scriptural support for your system. This is where these metaphysical, all encompassing systems of faith fall short You want to extract truths from some verses while ignoring others somehow believing that you know which ones are right and which are not while simultaneously claiming the source to be divinely inspired or revealed. There are certainly people of all faith backgrounds that end up adopting these views.
All I can say is that I have no reason to believe that God made this to be a simple anything goes problem for us to solve. Life is hard. I believe it is hard because we have free will to choose or reject God and deal with the consequences as individuals and as societies, but no where have I seen scriptural support in any faith that says we, rather than God, have the authority to pick and choose from God's messages that which "feels right" to us while rejecting the parts that make us uncomfortable. You don't have to be a literalist in any particular faith, but if you are not at least consistent in your adoption of the tenets of particular faith then you are just manufacturing a new faith of your own as you go along.