verse 15:87
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How about this one
R K claimed that the first revealed sura (96) consists of
19 words
76 Letters = 19 x 4Here the count in Arabic after breaking the words
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- = 7 20
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- = 4 15
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- = 5 15
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- = 4 15
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- = 5 19
25 84 .
- = 5 19
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Total words = 25
Total Letters = 84Both can't be divided by 19
Peace
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Peace,
Thanks Layth, but I'm just looking at it right now, they are 70 man, i'm not sure if R K (57) and you (5 considered the word regrdless its meaning in the context or not?
I am looking at the word "Quran" which only occurs 58 times. The derivates "quranan" are not the same as it simply means "reading" while "Quran" refers to a pecific Scripture.
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Peace,
Thanks Layth, but I'm just looking at it right now, they are 70 man, i'm not sure if R K (57) and you (5 considered the word regrdless its meaning in the context or not?
I am looking at the word "Quran" which only occurs 58 times. The derivates "quranan" are not the same as it simply means "reading" while "Quran" refers to a pecific Scripture.
ok i was looking at the word Quran regardless of the meaning but again if we only include the ones that means the Quran then the count still wrong according to you so in either case R K was wrong
Salam
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Peace,
ok i was looking at the word Quran regardless of the meaning but again if we only include the ones that means the Quran then the count still wrong according to you so in either case R K was wrong
Never said that he wasn't...Personally, I am of the opinoin that some of his findings/research is correct, while others are based on wrong data/findings.
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Peace,
ok i was looking at the word Quran regardless of the meaning but again if we only include the ones that means the Quran then the count still wrong according to you so in either case R K was wrong
Never said that he wasn't...Personally, I am of the opinoin that some of his findings/research is correct, while others are based on wrong data/findings.
Peace
Yes I agree that some of his findings regarding the sunnah has merit, but regarding code 19 in the Quran while yes there is a 19 tendency in it but that is part of the Fitnah by Allah as far as I believe, i.e. Allah made the Quran this way to test those who will tend to buy it, the code is not perfect though there are many fallacies in it and sure there is also other codes that can be discoverd, for example i'm sure there is code 2 and code 1 in the Quran if you know what i mean
Salam
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Peace,
Yes I agree that some of his findings regarding the sunnah has merit, but regarding code 19 in the Quran while yes there is a 19 tendency in it but that is part of the Fitnah by Allah as far as I believe, i.e. Allah made the Quran this way to test those who will tend to buy it, the code is not perfect though there are many fallacies in it and sure there is also other codes that can be discoverd, for example i'm sure there is code 2 and code 1 in the Quran if you know what i mean
My view is that the fitna was the reaction of people to the events that became associated with code 19. 19 was embraced by Sunnis and Shia alike and propogated and promoted...However, when the issue of God Alone came out and they were being invited to abondon the false idols of Imams and Sunna is when the shit hit the fan and the panic began with all these people dissasociating themselves from the whole issue (19 and all).
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Peace,
Yes I agree that some of his findings regarding the sunnah has merit, but regarding code 19 in the Quran while yes there is a 19 tendency in it but that is part of the Fitnah by Allah as far as I believe, i.e. Allah made the Quran this way to test those who will tend to buy it, the code is not perfect though there are many fallacies in it and sure there is also other codes that can be discoverd, for example i'm sure there is code 2 and code 1 in the Quran if you know what i mean
My view is that the fitna was the reaction of people to the events that became associated with code 19. 19 was embraced by Sunnis and Shia alike and propogated and promoted...However, when the issue of God Alone came out and they were being invited to abondon the false idols of Imams and Sunna is when the s*** hit the fan and the panic began with all these people dissasociating themselves from the whole issue (19 and all).
Peace
Ok, but I was raised in a sunni enviroment for the first 26 years in my life and never heard of it, very strange indeed, i actually heard about code 19 for the first time in 2000 when i was 35 years old that is when left the sunni enviroment 9 years earlier, but anyway i think i need to look further into the relation between the sunni/shia and code 19
cheers
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Peace brother Layth,
My view is that the fitna was the reaction of people to the events that became associated with code 19. 19 was embraced by Sunnis and Shia alike and propogated and promoted...However, when the issue of God Alone came out and they were being invited to abondon the false idols of Imams and Sunna is when the s*** hit the fan and the panic began with all these people dissasociating themselves from the whole issue (19 and all).
Since this is unrelated to the main topic of thei thread, I posted a response here
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=7a6d4fbadb48932070e70fe53a6ca182&topic=5602.msg83295#msg83295
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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peace all,
I was reading a book and it said that some verses in the quran need hadith for explanation so one of the verses was 1587
So i thought i?d look it up. i was having a discussion and a few possibilities came up
3923
...the best narration a book/decree, repetitions/infolds/doubles/twos/benefactions resembling/likening/conforming each other...1587
...we have given you seven/many of repetitions/infolds/doubles/twos/benefactions and the great readingAny thoughts?
Peace
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The 'explanation' offered by hadith for 15/87 is poor anyway. Apparently the '7 oft-repeated' is the fatiha! So they started counting the basmalah in fatiha to justify their explanation!
I would suggest reading 15/87 in context. It seems to be talking about reading Quran in context.
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Peace,
Quote
Rashad Khalifa also claimed that the word Quran appeared 57 times = 19 x 3 but the fact of the matter that the word Quran appeared 70 times in the Quran clealy proves that he was a liarActually, it is 58 times (not 70).
This is not the correct verdict. Complete list of all occurrences
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0004.B%20Qura%20Qaf%20Ra%20alif%20Quraan/0004.B%20Qura%20Quraan.htm
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so what than? the Quran has several mathani? what's your understanding of it
Notice in 15/87 its not just al-quran but al-quran al-azheem. So when Allah gives you (ataynaKA) the seven/several mathany (pairs - referring to stories and their corresponding realities, i think) the uzma of the Quran will be shown. But the point is that it must be read in context. Allah denounces those who don't (15/90-91)
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Yeh i noticed its walquran al3azeem, it?s an attribute the great quran. what?s the significances of it and mathany? Notice it?s ?wal-quran?. The corresponding realities are an assumption. It doesn?t say the uzama of quran will be shown through the mathany...
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Yes, it's 'wal quran al-azeem'. However, the fact that its in the same ayah as 'sab3a min al-mathany' shows there is an intimate connection between the two. I believe al-mathany (translated as two ends of a fold, according to Manan) links to 39/23 which talks about kitaban mutashabihan mathany, the book of similar events in our own lives.
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Ok this is the problem, in 3923 it says kitaban mutashabihan mathany and 1587 mentions mathany however it specifically uses the word sub3an and the prefix of waw ?walquran?. Besides that it?s ?ataynaka? given to you.
What do you mean by 2 ends of a fold? the book of events is one, and similarity in our lives is another? If that be the case i don?t think it works cos it says ?kitabun mutashabihun mathani? it?s the book with the mathani so the mathani in this case would be within the quran, that?s what i thought.
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I don't think the 'waw' in 'wal quran..' makes it two distinct things tho. Its just an emphatic waw.
As for 39/23, I don't think 'ahsan al-hadith' is the Quran but rather the best out of the current events in our lives. They form a kitaban which is mutashabih/similar when its mathany/folded together with the Quran itself.
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Salaam Sarah,
I was reading a book and it said that some verses in the quran need hadith for explanation
What book is that? Any chance we can get a thread going to discount these claims one by one? Or are there too many?
About the verse, I think that the argument that the seven pairs refers to the fatiha isn't a great one, but don't have an acceptable solution.
Although Project Quran List has something interesting to say about this
Siin-Ba-Ayn = to make a number up to seven, be the seventh of, seven (sub'un), seventy (sab'ina), sometimes used in a vague manner as meaning seven or more and seventeen or more or several or many. The Arabic equivalents of the numbers seven, seventy and seven hundred are all used to indicate a large number by the Arabs and for multiplicity, not indicating exactness in number. Devour/kill/bite, beast, bird of prey.
It also gives all the verses with sab'ah and its derivatives, and I think the next step would be to go through them and see if each one refers specifically to the number 7.
As far as I'm aware, astrophysics these days claims that there are countless other parallel universes...so the Quran using "several universes" instead of "seven universes" would make more sense.
Another interesting thing is that some translators translated mathani as "oft-repeating", as you alluded to earlier
Yusuf_AliAnd We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-repeated (verses) and the Grand Qur'an.
ShakirAnd certainly We have given you seven of the oft-repeated (verses) and the grand Quran.
PickthalWe have given thee seven of the oft-repeated (verses) and the great Qur'an.
ArberryWe have given thee seven of the oft-repeated, and the mighty Koran.In 53, sab'ah refers to wild animals....so perhaps the verse is saying
We have given you wild animals of the pairs, and the great Quran ?
I'm not too convinced..
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abdalquran
Assuming its an emphatic waw. What then? we have given you sub3an of the mathani that is the great quran.
So then sub3an could mean 7, or many(or beast).
Mathani could mean
Tha-Nun-Ya = to bend/fold, double up, turn one part of a thing upon the other, draw one of its two extremities to the other, join or adjoin one of the things to the other, turn anyone away or back from his course or from the object of his want, conceal enmity. mathna - by twos, in pairs, two, two and two. mathaan / al-mathaanii (pl. of mathnan/mathnaatun) - oft-repeated. thanaya/athnaa - he praised, spoke well of anyone. thinan - repetition of a thing
Could also mean benefit/benefactionsSo how do you understand it?
In regards to 3923 dunno if i agree there but could be with your understanding of kitaban. But i think weve lost the meaning in 1587 even if you think 3923 is not quran, 1587 talks about quran.
Salam ths
Its called scholars of hadith, its a basic book of biographies of the hadith commentators though it just briefly mentions verses in justification of hadith and verses in need of hadith they were 1587, 944 and 2258.
1587 had me dumbfounded hence mentioning it. But sure i could start a thread dunno if its necessary but here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601132.0
I dont think the fatiha is a great argument either.
Wild animals aint convincing.
Initially i thought it was wives due to the following verse, but wouldnt make sense. I even thought of the traditional theory of 7 arab quranic dialects but thats external so doesnt work either.
I thought of it as a provision of some sort.
We have given you many(sub3an) of the benefits(mathani)and the great reading?
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I dont think sab3an means 'many' because the word 'katheera' already means many. As for 'beast' , I really can't see how it can fit although I admit, in ayat like 5/3 (maa akala as-sabu3u) it has to mean beast of some sort. At this point, I cannot seem to reconcile the meanings.
The commonality of 39/23 and 15/87 is the word 'mathany'. 39/23 shows that 'ahsanal hadith' (the best events) are of something systematic/relatable (kitaban) which are similar to each other (mutashabihan) and can be folded up into a unified whole (mathany). 15/87 shows that the best 7 mathanys are also foldable into a unified whole and therein we can see the grandness of the Quran.
Btw, 15/85 is very good as well to shed light on 87. It talks about the coming of as-sa3ah which we know through chapter 69 refers to the end of each community.
