verse 15:87
-
Assuming it?s an emphatic waw. What then? we have given you sub3an of the mathani that is the great quran.
So then sub3an could mean 7, or many(or beast).
SarahyIt cannot mean anything except seven. It is accusative and is the second object of the verb. It is masculine and refers only to seven feminine objects which is second noun of the possessive phrase that is omitted being evident in the sentence. And immediately after it "min" rules out the possibility of taking it except seven.
-
Sarah, Mazhar's mentioned a very good point with the 'min'. It's sab3a MIN al-mathaany. Meaning the Quran has 7 major 'unfoldings' which attribute to its uzma.
-
Mazhar,
I don?t understand youAbdalquran
Yes sub3an min almathani meaning it has seven or several of the mathani. min = of. how does it not work with many? Many of the mathani.It can?t see it as 7 major unfolding.
If we take it as seven then there are more than 7 and only 7 were given. So to say that 7 major unfolding what are they? It don?t make sense. Unless we start to take fatiha as the meaning.
The quran is the utheem, the manthani aren?t related to the quran because of the ?wa? unless you take ?wa? to me that is.
We have given you 7 (many) of the mathani and the great quran.
We have given you 7 of the unfolding and the great quran
We have given you 7 of the unfolding that is the great quran
Don?t make sense.
Unfolding? How can you give 7 unfoldings.
Wakas
Yeh you're right, it?s la so do not.
I think what makes it confusing is the term mathani and then specifically 7 (or many) so i?m stuck dunno what it is.
-
Sarah, Mazhar's mentioned a very good point with the 'min'. It's sab3a MIN al-mathaany. Meaning the Quran has 7 major 'unfoldings' which attribute to its uzma.
"al-mathaany" does not mean "unfoldings". It is a plural noun used adverbially, as is also evident from 3923. Its base meanings/perception is to fold a single page or leaf making it two parts while remaining joined and confronting each other like the folding of one's leg that the lower leg touches/confronts the thigh; a situation each mirroring other. From this base meanings "repetition" is the inference.
-
Salaam Sarah,
It?s called scholars of hadith, it?s a basic book of biographies of the hadith commentators though it just briefly mentions verses in justification of hadith and verses in need of hadith they were 1587, 944 and 2258.
Oh sorry, I thought it was a whole book! If it's just those 3 verses, then they don't really have much of an argument!
Salaam Mazhar and AbdalQuran,
It doesn't necessarily mean seven because of "min".
It can mean 2 things
We have given you seven of the mathani
or
We have given you several of the mathani
Personally, I lean towards interpreting it as 'seven', and not 'several', but we should just keep that in mind.
As far as the verse goes, I think AbdalQuran and Wakas are right about verse 3923. I don't believe it's a coincidence that the Quran refers to itself as "resembling mathani",
"Allahu nazzala ahsana alhadeethi, kitaban mutashabihan mathaniya"
God has sent down the best discourse, a book resembling pairs
One clue is Pickthall's translation of this part
"Allah hath (now) revealed the fairest of statements, a Scripture consistent, (wherein promises of reward are) paired (with threats of punishment)"
Then we have 1587 onwards
And we have given you seven of the pairs, and the glorious Quran
And do not strain your eyes at what we have bestowed on some wives/pairs of them, nor grieve over them, but take the believers under your wing and say Surely I am the plain warner.
Like as We sent down on the dividers, those who break the Qur'an into parts. So, by your Lord, We will most certainly question them all concerning what they were doing.
So shout that thou art commanded and turn thou away from the idolaters. Surely We will suffice you against the scoffers, that set up with God another god. Certainly they will soon know!So what are these pairs?
a) We know they have something to do with the Quran, resemble it, or the way it is structured. The Quran is like these pairs.
b) We know that God gave Muhammad seven (several?) of them, with the Quran. - I feel that the waw indicates they are separate things
c) Muhammad might be scornful / jealous? at some of these pairs because of what God gave them.
d) Muhammad might grieve over some of them
e) They were also sent to people who divided the Quran into parts
f) Mathani must mean "pairs" or "wives" due to the usage of "azwaajan minhum" in 1588My opinion is that it is not part of the Quran, but perhaps qualities or dualities of personality. Because it doesn't make sense for Muhammad to "grieve over" parts of the Quran
-
As far as the verse goes, I think AbdalQuran and Wakas are right about verse 3923. I don't believe it's a coincidence that the Quran refers to itself as "resembling mathani",
"Allahu nazzala ahsana alhadeethi, kitaban mutashabihan mathaniya"
God has sent down the best discourse, a book resembling pairs
Salam ths,
These are three words. First two are singular masculine, the third is plural. Second is active participle , the one who narrates/explains with metaphors-as is done by scientists to explain matters/things which are hidden/invisible for perception; the third being plural does not match the first noun, therefore, it is not adjective describing the noun but is adverbial.
Describing the invisible/hidden realities by metaphors helps mirroring it-to bring the thing face to face, make one into two- since each thing is composed of apparent and hidden reality.
-
Salaam Mazhar,
Honestly, I have no idea what you're trying to say. And I'll be even more honest, brother, I doubt you knew what you were saying either!
But if you're trying to say that because mathani is plural, it cannot be compared to the Quran, this is false thinking. Just because it is plural and 'kitab' is singular does not mean they cannot be compared to each other.
For example, I could say
From what I can tell, it is perfectly acceptable linguistically, to assume that this verse is comparing the Kitab with mathanya, and not the Kitab to itself.
-
Amin,
The scrolls/previous books doesnt make sense. Its an asserted meaning. Mathani root is tha nun ya
Tha-Nun-Ya = to bend/fold, double up, turn one part of a thing upon the other, draw one of its two extremities to the other, join or adjoin one of the things to the other, turn anyone away or back from his course or from the object of his want, conceal enmity. mathna - by twos, in pairs, two, two and two. mathaan / al-mathaanii (pl. of mathnan/mathnaatun) - oft-repeated, benefactions. thanaya/athnaa - he praised, spoke well of anyone. thinan - repetition of a thing.
So previous scripture scrolls/books dont fit.
Salam ths,
It was only a couple of verses but its ok, others might find verses and add to it.Well then, from what is found lets see what fits. Im just going to throw ideas feel free to argue against or for. Im not going to dwell on 7 or many for now lets just assume its 7.
And we have given you seven of the pairs and the glorious quran. the waw seems to indicate it's something along with the Quran, so 7 mathani and Quran. It just leaves a question as to what these pairs are.
And we have given you seven of the wives and the glorious Quran. This wording seems a bit odd 7 of the wives. You cant inherit wives?
The next couple of verses make a point ...but take the believers under your wing and say surely I am the plain warner.
Is it possible that they were not all believers hence not to grieve over them? Not sure.
Another issue about wives is azwajan minhum. Of their wives/ wives of them.
So im kinda thinking the mathani were pairs of people/supporters possibly? and they had wives, people with wives?
I dont think it's the prophets wives plus the prophet is instructed to tell them
3328 (Asad) O PROPHET! Say unto thy wives If you desire the life of this world and its charms - well, then, I shall provide for you and release you in a becoming manner;
3329 (Asad) but if you desire God and His Apostle, and the life in the hereafter, then , verily, for the doers of good among you God has readied a mighty reward!So prophet wouldnt need to worry about straining eyes on his own wives.
BTW in regards to pickthalls translation it seems he takes it to be in regards to Quran; the mathani. with all translations (i think) regard 3923 with the Quran. the only thing is 3923 doesnt have "wa", the manthani is part of the book it's describing it. if we take 1587 to be the same as 3923 then the "waw" would be an emphatic and not "and". i'm not sure but is there any indication that "waw" can mean other than "and"?
Any thoughts?
peace
-
But if you're trying to say that because mathani is plural, it cannot be compared to the Quran, this is false thinking. Just because it is plural and 'kitab' is singular does not mean they cannot be compared to each other.
Neither I said this nor there is any such thing described therein. These three words are explaining-describing the first part of the sentence. Adjectives and adverbials do not compare here but they describe that which was sent.
-
Sarah,
I would like to post something i got from Google.. about the Jewish Mishnah
///////////////////////////
The Mishnah is a recording of Jewish oral law collected between 70 CE and 200 CE by many generations of Rabbis. Its name means "repetition".The etymology of the term comes from the Semitic root TH-N. In Hebrew, the TH sound in other Semitic languages becomes a SH sound. For example, Hebrew for the numbers 2 and 3 is Shnyim and Shalosh, while the Arabic equivalent is ITHNAYN and THALATHA .
So, if we were to write Mishnah in the more common Semitic form in Arabic letters, it would be approximated to MITHNAH or . This last form appears in the Quran three times, pronounced MATHNA and spelled the same as when having no diacritics (Tashkeel), and meaning "two" or "dual".
///////////////////////////////////////////So i think it should be some sacred texts.?
-
amin,
All that shows is in relation to jewish scripture mathani rather mathna means often repeated and they associate it with mishnah. mishnah is to jews what hadiths are to muslims.
What are the 3 occurrences did it say? 1587, 3923 and?
Besides is there any words without tashkil? I don?t think so.
peace
-
Salaam Sarah,
I was about to respond to what you wrote, and I got sidetracked reading up on something else, and then completely randomly while I was searching for something totally different, I come upon this
Brill, The Encyclopedia of Islam NEW EDITION, Volume 5, page 424
One special type of Kur'anic narrative that made up a major part of the revelation during the Meccan years is the punishment-story, discussed above for its use of refrains and schematic form in some versions. Five punishment-stories stand out from the others, those of Noah, Hud and the tribe of 'Ad, Salih and the tribe of Thamud, Lot, and Shu'ayb and the people of Midian. And two others are prominent in some suras, the story of Moses and the drowning of Pharaoh's army, and the story of Arabham rejecting the idols of his people. These seven occur together in XXVI, 10-191, and are mentioned together in XXII, 42-4. Fairly complete versions of some of these stories also occur in VII, 59-93 (all but Abraham and Moses), XI, 25-95 (all but Moses), XXXVII, 75-148 (only the Biblical ones), and LIV, 9-42 (All but Abraham and Shu'ayb). Shorter versions of some of these seven and references to these and some others (Jonah, the people of Sheba, the men of al-Rass, and the people of Tubba' occur in XI, 70, XIV, 9, XXI, 48-77, XXIII, 23-48, XXV, 35-40, XXVII, 7-58, L, 12-14, LI, 24-46, LIII, 50-5, LXIX, 4-10, and LXXXIX, 6-14. The "men of al-Hidj" in XV, 80-4, are probably the tribe of Thamud; the "men of the Grove" (XV, 78 f., XXVI, 176-91, etc.) seem to be identical with the people of Midian ; and "the subverted (cities)" (al-mu'tafikat) ar emost likely Sodom and Gomorrah, the cities of Lot. Thus these three are apparently variations of three of the seven. Most Western scholars have accepted the view of A. Sprenger Leben, i, 462) and J. Horovitz (Koranische Unter-suchungen, 26- that the term mathani in XV, 87 and XXXIX, 23 (see 1.b above) refers to the seven most prominent punishment-stories, since the first verse says "seven of the mathani and the mighty kur'an" have been sent down to Muhammad by God, and the second describes the Book sent down to Muhammad as having mathani "at which the skins of those who fear their Lord do creep". See Paret, Kommentar, 279 f., and Bell-Watt, 134 f.
The Kur'an also contains some parables, the longest and clearest one being the prable of the Blighted Garden in LXVIII, 17-33. Others include the parable of the man with two gardens (XVIII, 32-44), the good and corrupt trees (XIV, 24-7), and the unbelieving town (XXXVI, 13-32). Several other parables are little more than expanded similes, e.g. the fire at night in II, 17, the downpour in II, 19, the slave in XVI, 75, the dumb man in XVI, 76, the water and the vegetation in XVIII 45, the light of God in XXIV, 35, the master and his slaves in XXX, 28, and the slave with several masters in XXXIX, 29 (see Bell-Watt, 81). These parables have no standard form; some are introduced by the statement addressed to Muhammad "And coin for them a parable" (wa 'drib lahum mathalan), e.g. XVIII, 32, 45, XXXVI, 13, others by the statement "God has coined a parable" (daraba 'llahu mathalan), e.g. XIV, 24, XVI, 75, 76, 112, XXXIX, 29, LXVI, 10.
I had actually thought of "examples" or "parables" before, but the Arabic word for parable/example is "mathal", instead of "mathanya", it's plural being "amthaal", so I just assumed I was wrong.
But I didn't know that there were 7 of these parables in the Quran.....it makes me lean toward this explanation.
So let's see if this fits with the analysis I made earlier
a) We know they have something to do with the Quran, resemble it, or the way it is structured. The Quran is like these pairs.
b) We know that God gave Muhammad seven (several?) of them, with the Quran. - I feel that the waw indicates they are separate things
c) Muhammad might be scornful / jealous? at some of these pairs because of what God gave them.
d) Muhammad might grieve over some of them
e) They were also sent to people who divided the Quran into parts
f) Mathani must mean "pairs" or "wives" due to the usage of "azwaajan minhum" in 1588a) Yes. The Quran is built with these parables.
b) Yes. God explained these parables to Muhammad via the Quran
c) Muhammad would of course strain his eyes at these parables. Either in an attempt to find their remains, or in fear, upon hearing their mention. He would likely have been afraid that the same would happen to his people!
d) Muhammad, being an exceptionally sensitive man, would have grieved and prayed for such a doomed people.
e) These parables would have reached everyone else in the region via Judaism, Christianity, and tribal lore.
f) I'm not quite sure exactly how to translate mathaniy. It must instead mean "oft-repeated". So we could translate 3923 asGod has sent down the best discourse, a book that looks like oft-repeated (parables)
1587
And we have given you seven of the oft-repeated (parables), and the glorious Quran
I'm leaning towards this interpretation, unless someone can think of any other possibilities that fit all these categories.
-
ok.. i'm not sure I agree. so correct me if I am wrong, you think the mathani are 7 parables/stories of past communities being punished?
Yeah, according to the Encyclopedia of Islam, that is what "most Western scholars" believe.
I can't say I believe it 100%, but it is definitely the best guess we've had so far. I can't think of anything else that fits the criteria
-
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/007.%20Al%20Airaaf/7.101.gif
These are the cities We are narrating to you, the Messenger , in sequence of actual happenings, from their news.Surat7
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.100.gif
These are from the news of the cities We are narrating to you, the Messenger , in sequence of actual happenings.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.100a.gif
Out of them some are standing and some are mown/diminished.
