Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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i answered somebody, or did i? But indeed i can't find you questions, weird.....i thought it was you........
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Peace ab,darbari and all. Darbari;ok,if you didnt get my post with open-mind or others,heres a summaryi dont agree with any interpretations which brand as disbelievers,peaceful people,because of their different or incorrect beliefs.( ie trinity,god is a part of man,so called 'atheists' etc,but are otherwise peaceful in behaviour..how many muslims or 'quran only' people have 'incorrect beliefs',yet are not 'branded,why the sectarian favouritism?) I also dont agree with any translations which call for hand-choppings,Three months to determine a pregnancy,divorced men and women not allowed to leave their own houses,lashings,crucifixions,sticks into snakes,uneven inheritance for women,slave wives,god in the sky on a throne on the water etc,etc... Especially when there are alternative symbolisms,or jails,rehabilitation centres,modern technologies which are better and more suited to todays society,humanity and context... hope that answers some of your questions. Im not against all of your attempts at translations of the quran...just some..And those are MY opinions...
Ab; first,you have to take every 'crime' on its merits and in context,...not have a fixed,pre-conceived,literal,innappropriate,ancient,out of date punishment ready for the 'crime'....Do you travel by car or by camel every time? Do you have a computer or send a pigeon for your messages? Do you read your quran from parchments/scrolls or can you read it from printed bound books,or even the internet? In other words cant technology/situations/science/understanding/interpretations evolve with time and study?
If you think its moral to chop a hand off for theft,or whip 100 times for adultery or crucify for capital punishment in this age of jails,rehabilitation centres,alternative humane punishments,psychological study etc...then we obviously have different views of morality.... By the way,do you believe in dna for crimes or do we need 4 witnesses? How many witnesess do we need for rape,or gay-sex etc...
How long would some of the posters who post 'unfounded allegations' about others last with the 80 lashes for 'allegations without 4 witnesses',rule?
And who said anything about singapore?...are your punishment laws valid literally for all times and all situations?... well how come so many muslims would disagree with their literal implementation in todays society? (or are they all incorrect except a select few who agree with you?) I doubt many of you could literally 'stomach' the literal reality of these punishments in todays society...(have you seen stonings,beheadings,whippings,amputations?.....not a pretty sight...also,what if you get an innocent person,will you give their hand or life back?)
I have my own opinions on morality. Just like i love my mother because of my own 'heart','natural intellect',morality and my opinion tells me too...thats the same 'heart,intellect,morality and opinion that makes me find some of these literal translations immoral....Hope thats enough evidence for you and others...if not,then tell me the evidence you have,or need that a person should try to take care of his family,or love his children?....
peace all. -
Peace ab,darbari and all. Darbari;ok,if you didnt get my post with open-mind or others,heres a summaryi dont agree with any interpretations which brand as disbelievers,peaceful people,because of their different or incorrect beliefs.( ie trinity,god is a part of man,so called 'atheists' etc,but are otherwise peaceful in behaviour..how many muslims or 'quran only' people have 'incorrect beliefs',yet are not 'branded,why the sectarian favouritism?) I also dont agree with any translations which call for hand-choppings,Three months to determine a pregnancy,divorced men and women not allowed to leave their own houses,lashings,crucifixions,sticks into snakes,uneven inheritance for women,slave wives,god in the sky on a throne on the water etc,etc... Especially when there are alternative symbolisms,or jails,rehabilitation centres,modern technologies which are better and more suited to todays society,humanity and context... hope that answers some of your questions. Im not against all of your attempts at translations of the quran...just some..And those are MY opinions...
what are u talking about ? i dont think i even addressed any of the above mentioned "translations".
what i showed u was why the two or more verses are not in contradiction with each other . u asked me to address the other "contradictions" too , but i asked u to reply to my explanations first . i.e WHY do u not agree with THAT explanation . -
i dont agree with any interpretations which brand as disbelievers,peaceful people,because of their different or incorrect beliefs.( ie trinity,god is a part of man,so called 'atheists' etc,but are otherwise peaceful in behaviour..how many muslims or 'quran only' people have 'incorrect beliefs',yet are not 'branded,why the sectarian favouritism?) I also dont agree with any translations which call for hand-choppings,Three months to determine a pregnancy,divorced men and women not allowed to leave their own houses,lashings,crucifixions,sticks into snakes,uneven inheritance for women,slave wives,god in the sky on a throne on the water etc,etc...
and these are not contradictions .
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Hello Ahmed,
Care to educate me on my points below which I believe were not touched in the manner approached, keeping the discussion simple without extra baggage and undesirable interference? If that is not your intention, then I beg to debar from participation and conclude your behavioral discussions as good-for-nothing beliefs.
780-82
Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before! "You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people." His people responded by saying, "Evict them from your town. They are people who wish to be pure."2928-29
Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination, no one in the world has ever done it before you. "You practice sex with the men, you commit highway robbery, and you allow all kinds of vice in your society." The only response from his people was to say, "Bring to us GOD's retribution, if you are truthful."-
In 780-82, Lot talks to his people about the abominations/crimes and his people evicts them from their town when in 2928-29, his people only asks for him to bring GOD?s retribution for the same abomination/crimes.
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Both verses talk about the same event in relations to Lot, his people, his enemy, place and time, collected and patched up at different places in the Quran, hence the repetition, yet differ in its presentation. This also proves, as is evident in several other exact cases/stories throughout the Quran, what 8015 is talking about where two or more people are involved in Quran?s compilation methods (exactly as historical analysis demands).
Note If you think that the above two verses talks about seperate events at seperate times, then I will bringforth other events that are time restrained and still convey dissimilarities. -
In 2928-29, no punishment or eviction is observed for more crimes (same sex, robbery and other immoral practices), against one crime (same sex) with an eviction.
Please also explain why several case scenarios and stories have been repeated in a multiple yet incoherent and inconsistent fashion at various stages throughout the Quran, alleging the infallibleness of its construction and presentation, especially when coming from Allah?
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For the people who believe in al-quraan, some humble thoughts regarding this exchance.
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Please notice Enquirer is now CHANGING THE SUBJECT. The subject is 'are there any contradictions in al-quraan'. This is a simple yes/no question but now, we now have to pander to what HE believes. Who cares what he believes in? Are there any contradictions, yes or no ? THAT'S the question.
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Enquirer's assumptions are NEVER questioned.
a. What is 'moral' ?
b.What is 'good'?
c. What is 'open-minded'?
d. Why is modernity automatically accepted as 'good'?
Do ask him these things because his understanding of them are as shaky as his understanding of al-quraan. It's no good accepting his assumptions and defending al-quraan while pandering to his precarious assumptions.
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Peace darbari. Those are not contradictions?...ok.....if you want
to explain why these are not contradictions,im happy to listen to your account....I have now explained in detail in my posts why i dont agree with them,as they are inconsistent in the 'modern age' to always take literally,and they dont agree with my morality when taken literally...
And remind me of your explanations that you want me to address,please? -
Peace mquran. Read my opening post on this thread,then see your strawman analysis,and assumptions about my questions....changing the subject?...see what i wrote in my first post in opening the thread...Please cut and paste,or quote it to prove that im changing the original topic....Dont let you emotional attachment to quran blind your reading,reason,humanity,and analytical processes.
ps;do unverified allegations without 4 witnesses count as slander,or does it deserve 80 lashes?... ) -
Isn't it amazing that a "1400 year old book" talks of people in this era?
Peace bro
Honest to Allah man, this is one of the main things that made me believe that the Quran is the words of Allah, this discovery happened to me in my early twinties, how amazing this book is bro, humans will be lost without the Quran, they are now lost to a degree because they dont implement the Quran, even the majority of the muslims themselves
Peace
Peace bro,
Agreed. When people adamantly refuse/deny God's words and instead they follow other people or even themselves... they will be lost. That is true ego, when they think they are better than what God revealed!
Chapter 63
- When the hypocrites come to you they Say ?We bear witness that you are the messenger of God.? And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.
- They have chosen their oath as a deceit, thus they repel from the path of God. Miserable indeed is what they do.
- That is because they believed, then disbelieved. Hence, their hearts are sealed; they do not understand.
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I think that the title of this should be Contradictions and inconsistencies in the "understanding" and "translation" of the Quran. But this title is also ok, because its ok to examine the Quran. However, I do not see any contradictions and inconsistencies in the Quran. Lashing and cutting of hands at exteam crime are cool. It is because at that level of crime there are distructions of families and the societies leading to the death of many people and disruption of the harmony in Allah's system.
Peace
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Peace bmbmm. Im glad you understand my point doctor... )
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Peace zenje. Just for my curiousity...If a person had the same 'moral' rules that you say the quran propogates,but he arrived at them independently (without the quran.),what would you make of him?...(assume this person has either not come across the quran,or has only had access to very 'poor'/incorrect translations?)...
Thank you... -
Peace mquran.Read my opening post on this thread,then see your strawman analysis,and assumptions about my questions....changing the subject?
Why are you suddenly answering me ? I thought you're blanking me since I'm answering all your cut-and-paste 'contradictions', i mean since i'm not being 'civil', lol.
...see what i wrote in my first post in opening the thread...Please cut and paste,or quote it to prove that im changing the original topic...
Prove? Wow, so you do care about proof after all? Or is just when you think you're right?
Here it is, for your convenience
Peace all. Because people insist on a literal and 'perfect' interpretation of the quran they leave their book open to contradictions and inconsistencies...If only they viewed their book as a source of potential symbolic wisdom,and not an unverified,literal,perfect idol,then they might actually get to follow god...and not just the quran.
I will start with the first contradiction; 478 and 479. Is evil from god or us? The literal translation is contradictory....Explain please.So the point made here, since people insist on a perfect and literal interpretation, they'll leave the book open to contradictions.
Let me now ask you With your FIRST example, was the so-called contradiction of 4/78-79 due to a literal/metaphorical issue or simply due to the fact the accuser has comprehension problems and never really read the actual verse but a poor translation?
Could this be the same accuser who says 'al-quraan calls for interpretation JUST by self-reference' ? Come on Enquirer, honestly just grow up. The fact of the matter is, you've simply not done your work.
Look at your last posts
dont agree with any interpretations which brand as disbelievers,peaceful people,because of their different or incorrect beliefs.( ie trinity,god is a part of man,so called 'atheists' etc,but are otherwise peaceful in behaviour..how many muslims or 'quran only' people have 'incorrect beliefs',yet are not 'branded,why the sectarian favouritism?)....
Let me ask you, has your view anything to do with it? The subject isn't 'your view' but instead is 'does al-quraan have any contradictions'.
fyi The passage above shows your reading al-quraan the way a sunni would. This shows your lack of familiarity with Parwez, Shabbir etc. I wonder how you have the cheek to extol yourself and still come up with stuff like this?
.Dont let you emotional attachment to quran blind your reading,reason,humanity,and analytical processes.
Pal, you don't know what reasoning is. You never use it. If you did, you could tell me what 'harmful' means. Why doesn't your 'heart' where God resides make a show of itself and help you out?
ps;do unverified allegations without 4 witnesses count as slander,or does it deserve 80 lashes?...
Haha, in another 25 years, you can study sura 24 and see that lashing accusations are only for lewdness. With this statement above alone, we can see how much reading you've done.
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Peace zenje. Just for my curiousity...If a person had the same 'moral' rules that you say the quran propogates,but he arrived at them independently (without the quran.),what would you make of him?...(assume this person has either not come across the quran,or has only had access to very 'poor'/incorrect translations?)...
ANOTHER subject change as our learned accuser has run out of arguments (or never had them to begin with).
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Bmbmm, that's certainly the crux of the matter but our professor of moral philosophy here thinks al-quraan is outdated because it prescribes certain punishements. Ask him, since he's your friend
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Does the fact that something pre-exist something else make the newer thing better?
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If so, how is it better ? Provide a measurement for betterness?
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What makes a law effective?
These are simple questions which I guranteee your friend will not answer.
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Bmbmm, that's certainly the crux of the matter but our professor of moral philosophy here thinks al-quraan is outdated because it prescribes certain punishements. Ask him, since he's your friend
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Does the fact that something pre-exist something else make the newer thing better?
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If so, how is it better ? Provide a measurement for betterness?
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What makes a law effective?
These are simple questions which I guranteee your friend will not answer.
I think he will and I hope everything get more clear, hopefully ;D
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Peace enquirer,
Peace zenje. Just for my curiousity...If a person had the same 'moral' rules that you say the quran propogates,but he arrived at them independently (without the quran.),what would you make of him?...(assume this person has either not come across the quran,or has only had access to very 'poor'/incorrect translations?)...
Thank you...I thought I had clarified before, but here it is... First, it's between this person and his Creator. The way I see it, he has nothing to fear. Secondly, if this is in regard to my post earlier, please note that I had mentioned an example of people who adamantly refuse/deny quran. Not someone who has no access or not read it.
I hope this helps.
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Peace mquran and all. Answers to your your questions;
- current systems are not always better than previous systems and vice versa..
- the measurement for 'betterness' is the 'practical' success of a certain system compared to another.
- A law is effective if it achieves its aims,and the aims should be human benefit.
There you go...i somehow feel you will still find fault with something i have said...
You also showed your guarantee i wouldnt answer to be wrong,and emotionally presumptous...maybe you should think about your opinions more,and what you post...if you can mistakes in what you assumed my first post in the thread was,and that i wouldnt reply to your 3 questions...then maybe you can make mistakes in interpreting the quran...just a thought. -
Peace zenje. Just to clarify a point, what about someone who has only come across very poor translations,and so rejects these poor translations...and continues living his life according to 'quranic' morals which he has derived from his own experiences and intelligence? Thank you.