The 3:7 Challenge to Arnold Yasin
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peace
"both" is referring to the allegorical verses and the clear, direct verses. I don't think that just because someone would know the meaning of it, it would be clear. Because it could still have a different understanding, and possibly a better one.Does the word "ayah" mean "sign?"
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Is one of the meanings yeah. Signs, miracles, verses...
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Not directly, as 'waw' is not directly an end to a sentence
"waw" is inherently a linking word, meaning and/ furthermore / in addition / along with, and in some cases "that is"
Peace bro
I didn?t say the Waw is directly of indirectly an end to a sentence, I said the Waw is commonly known to be AT THE START OF A NEW SENTENCE, AND THIS IS KNOWN ION ALL LANGUAGES, EXACTLY AS I USED IT IN THIS VER SENTENCE I JUST WROTE
Also i want AB to answer these points
Sure as long as it is related to 37
1.In order to believe in all the verses of the Quran, one does not need to be deeply rooted in knowledge. To be a "believer" is a sufficient condition to beleive all the verses. However, one needs to have deep knowledge of the Quran in order to understand "mutashabih" (multiple meaning) verses accurately. Therefore, 37 mentions a narrow category (those who deeply rooted in knowledge) in relation with those multiple meaning verses.
Bro the knowledge mentioned is the knowledge of knowing Allah, not the knowledge of knowing science nor languages, I believe I stated that already
2.If we follow the traditional translation of 37,
I didn?t follow any traditio0ns, this is the clear context of 37 combined with knowing what Allah is
then, we must have a clear definition of "mutashabih" verses in order to avoid trying to understand them.
sure, when you meet a verse that is not clear or does not make any sense and you exhausted all logic to find that it is not mutashabih then it is mutashabih, I guess everyone have a brain, I wonder why they don?t use it sometimes
According to your translation, if one tries to understand a verse and that verse happens to be a mutashabih, then that person is in danger to become a hypocrite.
Not really trying to understand the meaning of the mutashabih rather confirming that it is a mutashabih verse when finding out that all possible understandings can?t be eliminated ?logically speaking?, like 43 for example which is a clear cut mutashabih verse
Therefore, you must be able to identify ALL the mutashabih verses.
As you collide with them while reading the Quran, yes why not if you can
Can you provide us with a list of mutashabih verses?
Not a list but we can start with 43 if you like and then as I read the Quran and find them I will give a call of FM, I?m sure the Mutashabihat verses are very rare in the Quran because I hardly read over ten if I can remember well
Can you justify your criteria for your selection? How can your lack of understanding be criteria for others?
Sorry. Could not understand the question, what do you mean by my lack of knowledge be criteria for others?, it can?t be for sure, the criteria I?m talking about is the criteria of knowing a verse is mutshabih or not, this criteria is simply explained twice earlier
Someone's lack of understanding of one verse cannot make a verse "taboo" for all other people. Otherwise, the lowest degree of understanding will be the common denominator in understanding of the Quran. The more verse you don't understand the more you will be safe, and the more verse you understand the more you will be a subject for accusation to be a hypocrite.
Yeh the above apply on the Muhkamat verses
3.The intention of those who try to understand the multiple-meaning verses is important. With the disease in their harts, they try to confuse others by focusing on multiple meaning verses. Since only sincere believers possess the quality to understand the Quran (1746; 1857; 5417), hypocrites will not be able to find the true meaning of multiple-meaning words. They either try to take them out of context or disregard other verses that bring explanation to them. For instance
". . . And we sent down to you this message, to proclaim (litubayyena) for the people everything that is sent down to them, perhaps they will reflect (1644).
again I got confused with you here bro, please donlt make it harder for me, my two questions are not answered yet, these are the two important points you need to clear out
How come the people with knowledge refer to the Mutashabihat verses distinguished from the Muhkamat while they managed to understand it as you claim?
How Allah will say with the people with knowledge that They believe in both as both from Allah?
The word "'lituBaYyeNa" is a derivative of "BYN", which is a multiple-meaning word. It means 1) To reveal what is concealed. 2) To explain what is vague. The first meaning is the antonym of "hide", the second is the antonym of "make vague". God orders Muhammad to proclaim the revelation which is revealed to him personally. Indeed, this is the whole mission of the messengers." (1635)
So you agree that the messenger has another role which is Le Tobain to the believers what was sent down to them, good now I got you cornered, now you should believe in some of the hadith because the prophet in it explained to us what was sent down to us, now 37 didn?t say Allah and His prophets will crack the meaning of the Mutashabihat verses, it said Allah and the people with knowledge, so what the prophets mission has to do with 37 exactly?
Prophets sometimes experience difficulty in proclaiming the revelation (3337; 2025). If the Quran is a profound Arabic book, if it is explained by God, and if it is simple to understand (515; 26195; 111; 5417; 551-2), then the prophet does not have an extra mission to explain it. Furthermore, the verse 7519 does not leave any room for an extra human explanation. Thus, the word "litubayyena" of 1644 is similar to the one in 3187. Verse 3187 tells us that the people who received the revelation should "proclaim the scripture to the people, and never conceal it."
Not sure what that has to do with 37?, but anyway bro 37 was not talking about any messenger rather the people with knowledge, I agree that the messengers are from the people with knowledge but I just don?t understand your point of bringing the messengers struggle into the discussion of 37
The Quran broadcasts a very clear message. However, the problem is with our receivers. If our receiver does not hear the broadcast or cannot understand it well, then something is wrong with our receiver and we have to check it. If the signal is weak, we need to recharge our batteries, or reset our antennas. If we do not receive a clear message, we need to tune into the station, to the station of Quran alone, in order to get rid of the noises and interference from other sources. We may ask some help from knowledgeable people or experts for this task. If the receiver does not work at all, then we have to make a sincere effort to fix the broken parts. However, if we believe that the problem is in the broadcast, then nobody can help us. The divine broadcast can be heard in detail only by those who sincerely tune in, i.e., those who take it seriously and act accordingly. The condition of our receiver and the antenna, the power of the battery, and the precision level of our tuning are very important in getting the divine message properly.
"None can grasp it except the sincere." (5679)
good, now I ask your sincerity to blossom and answer the two questions I raised please
The Quran is simple to understand (5411).
Are you sure this is 5411?
(11)
Whoever opens his/her mind and heart as a monotheist and takes the time to study it, will understand it.
I agree however I?m not sure if they will understand fully though?
This understanding will be enough for salvation. Beyond this, to understand the multi-meaning verses or allegorical descriptions you do not need to be a messenger of God.
So why you brought the messengers of God into the picture then?
If you have a good mind and have studied the Quran as a believer, that is, if you have a deep knowledge, then you will be able to understand the true meanings of multiple-meaning verses.
Good, can you now explain to me wjhich meaning is for 43 and why?, thanks
The verse 37, which is about the multiple-meaning verses, points this fact in a multiple-meaning way ". . . No one knows their true meaning except God and those who possess knowledge. . " Obviously, those who are confused by contradictory teaching of clergymen (ulama) do not possess knowledge and unable to understand this verse.
Good, why Allah then say with them ?They say we believe in both as from Allah??, you have to conclusively tell us why Allah is excluded from ?They say? according to the Arabic context, thanks
5.There are some Sunni commentators who support our understanding.
I really care about what sect they belong to, howver bring those sunni on and let them answer my two simple questions
For instance, the classic commentary of al-Baydawi prefers this understanding. Please note that Yusuf Ali also acknowledges this fact in the footnote of 37 "One reading, rejected by the majority of Commentators, but accepted by Mujahid and others, would not make a break at the point marked Waqfa Lazim, but would run the two sentences together. In that case the construction would run 'No one knows its hidden meanings except God and those who are firm in knowledge. They say', etc." If you are not determining the truth by the number of votes (majority), then, I suggest you reflect on the reasons I have listed here.
Irrelevant, we need two answers to two simple questions before we take that understanding, who is They? And if they say Allah is excluded from ?They? then they have to conclusively prove it from the Arabic context
So i believe it is not correct in its usage of AB. And that it is God AND the people with knowledge, as the points above, common sense and the understanding that God sended the book to guide us, so verses humankind cannot in the end is useless to send with a book to guide. There can be no reasonable answer to this.
Fine if you insist, I only convey a message and it is now conveyed
The good point he makes that must be investigated is
, i.e. We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord??, see, this alone should demolish that non sensible understanding that those with knowledge will understand the meaning of the Mutashabihat verse along with Allah, because Allah should not say ? We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord?
Peace
Thank you and I would like a logical answer to this if you really kean to clear my ignorance
Salam
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So 37 is talking about the "signs" in the "al kitab."
Ahmed, are you sure that in 37 al kitab means al quran?
100%
Cheers
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peace Ahmed,
why?
Ok bro when I have time I will explain why as this is going to be long "i feel", I have to get going with the things that i have to do before I fly in 3 days, here is a sample of what i have to do
- clean my wife car and my car
- clean my fish tank
- finish and deliver a databse to a client (I'm working on this DB since 2001)
- Prepare about 250,000 new records a call center to have enough calls while I'm away,
- get all the things I need to take with me overseas
man this is just a sample and i have to get going but I got you flagged on Profiler 2006 and surely you will hear from me why Al Kitab in 37 must means Al Quran 100%
cheers
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Peace,
AB, not all of your answers are good, but there is no need for me to answer them, as somebody has given me the exact answer i was looking for. So i agree with AB conclusion. I first didn't accept this translation, because people couldn't answer some questions about the logic behind it, now i got those answers. I first have to ask i can post them on the forum, so we have to wait for that. But it was not only the arabic that convinced but me also the answer related to it.
Like i said, i'm no arabic expert, but i have studied a lot, not to be satisfied with simple answers. But AB, you're right, i will not intervene no more before i have good answers. But on this issue i accepted an article which gave good answers i thought. That is why i answered phoenix then.
Peace
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This is what Ayman gave as answer to me which answered all my questions
003.007
YUSUFALI He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses
basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation
of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is
perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord,
and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden
meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge
say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and
none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture
wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and
others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt
pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause)
dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save
Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say We believe therein;
the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses
are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are
allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they
follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and
seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its
interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in
knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do
mind except those having understanding.
KHALIFA He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward
verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as
multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their
hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and
to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof
except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in
this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess
intelligence will take heed.The "waw" can be used both to separate a new sentence and for addition
(similar to an English "and". We find examples of both types of usages
in the great reading. So only looking at the "waw" doesn't tell us
enough information to decide either way. So we need to look at other
info in the passage. When we look at the rest of the passage we see that
the verb coming after "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" is
the verb "say" in the plural ("yaquloon". Now notice how all
translators above, except for Khalifa, correctly don't put the pronoun
"hum" (they) before "yaquloon" and they just replicate the exact Arabic
sentence as "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say". Only
Khalifa is forced to put the pronoun "they" before "say", which is
non-existent in the Arabic original, to make the passage work. This is
for the simple reason that Khalifa knew very well that not putting the
"they" in front of "say" and adding "those well founded in knowledge" to
GOD would result in "GOD and those well founded in knowledge say".
Since, clearly the sentence "We believe in this - all of it comes from
our Lord" cannot be uttered by The God, then he needed to change the
words and insert a pronoun that is not in the original Arabic. The other
translators didn't have to do that because they ended the sentence
before the "waw". So in this case, the evidence from the passage itself
leans heavily towards the "waw" being used as a sentence separator as
opposed to for addition.More evidence is in the word "taawil" itself. I don't think that any of
the translators really did a good job in translating this key word. The
word comes from "awal" which means "original/first/ultimate". So it is
not just any meaning/understanding/interpretation but it is the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Now this
type of meaning can only be known to the author of the text that is
subject to interpretation. This is true even for human authors. For
example, you can understand and interpret what an author means in a
novel but maybe you don't know that he or she based this passage on a
childhood experience or a certain likes and dislikes, etc. Essentially,
you would heve to delve into the psyche of the human author to know the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Of course,
this is impossible.Other passages of the great reading confirm this understanding. You see
the same word in 753. It is addressing those who are waiting or expect
the original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. The
passage says that when the actual original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation comes, it will be on the day of the
account and by then it will be too late.Look around you and empirically verify the right path by comparing it to
the path of the stayers (16-7). You will see that the people who think
that they have the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation have stopped trying to get closer
to the truth. They are misguided and not progressing. If you or I
thought that we had the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation, then we wouldn't be here today. It
is only those who are firmly grounded in reality that know that what we
know is far less than what we don't know. This is true about all of The
God's signs in the universe and not just in the great reading.I think that 37 and 7431 are linked together by 226. Here is my
translation of those passages-
He is the one who descended on you the book. From it are judging
signs that are the origin of the book, and others that are allegorical.
So in the case of
(1) Those in whose hearts there is blurriness, they pursue what is
allegorical from it (the book) desiring the "fitna"/trial/affliction and
desiring its (what is allegorical from the book) original
interpretation. And none knows its (what is allegorical from the book)
original interpretation except The God. And,
(2) Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We have faith in it
(the book), both (types of signs) are from our Lord."
And none remembers other than those with intellects. -
The God does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory, from a
mosquito to what is greater. As for those who have faith, they know that
it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who are unappreciative,
they say, "What did The God mean by such an allegory misleading many
thereby and guiding many thereby?" But He never misleads thereby except
the wicked. -
And we didn't make the owners/companions of the Fire except
controllers; and
We didn't make their count except as a "fitna"/trial/affliction for
those who have been unappreciative;
so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, those who had faith increase
in faith and those who were given the book and those who had faith do
not have doubt.
And, so that
(2) those in whose hearts there is sickness and the unappreciative say
"What did The God want with this example?" Like this The God misguides
whom He wills and guides whom He wills.
And none knows your Lord's soldiers except Him.
And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.
I hope that you can see those connections.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace arnoldyasin. So what is the new translation of this important verse,and what are the implications?
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Yes, he agrees with AB, and me too now.
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Thank you all
I'm just puzzled where is brother Ayman comment?
I'm very interested to read it
thanks
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peace AB, below is Ayman's answer as posted by Arnoldyasin. I don't know what it answers or where he got it from confused ) but it makes sense.
003.007
YUSUFALI He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses
basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation
of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is
perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord,
and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden
meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge
say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and
none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture
wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and
others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt
pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause)
dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save
Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say We believe therein;
the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses
are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are
allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they
follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and
seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its
interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in
knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do
mind except those having understanding.
KHALIFA He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward
verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as
multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their
hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and
to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof
except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in
this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess
intelligence will take heed.The "waw" can be used both to separate a new sentence and for addition
(similar to an English "and". We find examples of both types of usages
in the great reading. So only looking at the "waw" doesn't tell us
enough information to decide either way. So we need to look at other
info in the passage. When we look at the rest of the passage we see that
the verb coming after "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" is
the verb "say" in the plural ("yaquloon". Now notice how all
translators above, except for Khalifa, correctly don't put the pronoun
"hum" (they) before "yaquloon" and they just replicate the exact Arabic
sentence as "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say". Only
Khalifa is forced to put the pronoun "they" before "say", which is
non-existent in the Arabic original, to make the passage work. This is
for the simple reason that Khalifa knew very well that not putting the
"they" in front of "say" and adding "those well founded in knowledge" to
GOD would result in "GOD and those well founded in knowledge say".
Since, clearly the sentence "We believe in this - all of it comes from
our Lord" cannot be uttered by The God, then he needed to change the
words and insert a pronoun that is not in the original Arabic. The other
translators didn't have to do that because they ended the sentence
before the "waw". So in this case, the evidence from the passage itself
leans heavily towards the "waw" being used as a sentence separator as
opposed to for addition.More evidence is in the word "taawil" itself. I don't think that any of
the translators really did a good job in translating this key word. The
word comes from "awal" which means "original/first/ultimate". So it is
not just any meaning/understanding/interpretation but it is the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Now this
type of meaning can only be known to the author of the text that is
subject to interpretation. This is true even for human authors. For
example, you can understand and interpret what an author means in a
novel but maybe you don't know that he or she based this passage on a
childhood experience or a certain likes and dislikes, etc. Essentially,
you would heve to delve into the psyche of the human author to know the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Of course,
this is impossible.Other passages of the great reading confirm this understanding. You see
the same word in 753. It is addressing those who are waiting or expect
the original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. The
passage says that when the actual original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation comes, it will be on the day of the
account and by then it will be too late.Look around you and empirically verify the right path by comparing it to
the path of the stayers (16-7). You will see that the people who think
that they have the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation have stopped trying to get closer
to the truth. They are misguided and not progressing. If you or I
thought that we had the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation, then we wouldn't be here today. It
is only those who are firmly grounded in reality that know that what we
know is far less than what we don't know. This is true about all of The
God's signs in the universe and not just in the great reading.I think that 37 and 7431 are linked together by 226. Here is my
translation of those passages-
He is the one who descended on you the book. From it are judging
signs that are the origin of the book, and others that are allegorical.
So in the case of
(1) Those in whose hearts there is blurriness, they pursue what is
allegorical from it (the book) desiring the "fitna"/trial/affliction and
desiring its (what is allegorical from the book) original
interpretation. And none knows its (what is allegorical from the book)
original interpretation except The God. And,
(2) Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We have faith in it
(the book), both (types of signs) are from our Lord."
And none remembers other than those with intellects. -
The God does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory, from a
mosquito to what is greater. As for those who have faith, they know that
it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who are unappreciative,
they say, "What did The God mean by such an allegory misleading many
thereby and guiding many thereby?" But He never misleads thereby except
the wicked. -
And we didn't make the owners/companions of the Fire except
controllers; and
We didn't make their count except as a "fitna"/trial/affliction for
those who have been unappreciative;
so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, those who had faith increase
in faith and those who were given the book and those who had faith do
not have doubt.
And, so that
(2) those in whose hearts there is sickness and the unappreciative say
"What did The God want with this example?" Like this The God misguides
whom He wills and guides whom He wills.
And none knows your Lord's soldiers except Him.
And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.
I hope that you can see those connections.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Thank you phonix
it feels good when muslims agree together
cheers