Does the quran guarantee equal human rights for all people...?
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Peace all. The quran mentions mushriks/kafirs/non-believers as unclean(928.)/diseased of heart(210.)/unworthy and not to be taken as friends(328.)/to be faught against if they dont recognise 'islams' laws,or pay a poll tax...(929.)... There are many,many more verses with similiar conclusions...(I accept some of you will have alternative interpretations,and i would be interested in seeing them,and if these interpretations hold water,or are consistent with the rest of the book...)
How does this fit with the modern secular view that all humans should be treated equally,justly,humanely,be entitled to freedom,life,liberty and happiness,and equal opportunities in education,politics,economics,marriage,family life,freedom of beliefs without oppression etc,etc...?
By dividing humanity into arbitrary groups based on unverified,arbitrary,'divinely' justified theorising,you criminalise/marginalise other human beings who have different/no beliefs,even if those people are peaceful,decent,law-abiding,moral,productive members of society but just happen to be classified as non-muslim,kafir,mushrik by the 'high priests/spokesmen of god/quranic apologists' who tell us how to conduct our lives......................How does this fit with verse 2224...which states not to use god as an excuse to disregard the duty of being humanistic/just/kind/respectful with mankind....
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Peace mquran. Yes,that sounds fine. If you and others dont mind,i will answer posts in a reasonable time-scale.(maybe daily only.) I think this is fair,as im sure a lot of posts will be posted on this issue...If 5 posters ask me questions at the same time,thats fine,but i will have to respond as appropriate,given the time considerations...
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All I ask for is that you deal with my response fairly. If I'm right, say it and if i'm wrong, tell me why.
My response
You have an underlying assumption that being a 'muslim' indicates belief in al-quraan and its entailments and being a kafir is antithetical to this. This has come from reading translations and de-rooting words from their contexts. Al-quraan is a cogent, coherent text and must be read as such.
While being in imaan entails being in islaam (3/85) - which goes to say that one cannot have belief as defined by al-quraan without submitting in the way al-quraan defines - the opposite isn't true (49/14 - a famous example of this). Firaun himself recognised this by calling himself 'from al-muslimeen' (10/90) relative to the God of bani israil while it is clear that bani israil themselves had kafireen among them (61/14).
In an islamic mulk/domain, a person who is in submission to the laws is a muslim. So being a muslim is an adjective, not a social, cultural, ethnic or even indicative of one's beliefs but one's actions.. It's the same with kafireen.
So when al-quraan says 'almushrikoon are najsun' (9/2 , its pointing to the behaviour of a people who have transgressed God's laws killing, causing mischief etc.
So is your point answered?
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Peace mquran. Your analysis is in theory 100% correct. Yours is an enlightened,progressive and excellent theory...
However i would like you to show me how you derived it from the quran...? (i think you have derived it from reading INTO the quran....this is not a criticism or a slant at you...)
Also,in practice what does the quranic state say about adultery,theft,mischief in the land when committed by muslims who dont believe in the quranic punishments...? Also do muslims who dont believe in the quranic punishments have a right to change or modify these laws by democratic,peaceful means...?
Mquran,i am truely intrigued by your answer,you hold very similiar views to me in some ways....We just disagree on the divinity of the quran and its pracaticality in todays world...
I also think that there are very few that would agree with you on this forum,and they follow the same book,and use a method for 'correct' interpretation as well...
I would like to see if others agree with your analysis intellectually,and not through 'cheerleading'...
Peace all. ps;nabi; your point is noted,but you may have mistaken my question...My point is how the quran guarantees human rights,including 'muslims behaviour towards non-muslims',not just how god/gibrail apportion out basic necessities to people,which is very debatable anyway...... -
EnquirerPeace mquran. Your analysis is in theory 100% correct. Yours is an enlightened,progressive and excellent theory...
Correct by what benchmark? I am concerned in being correct with al-quraan. As for being progressive, if I am so, its incidental. I pray I didn't come to my conclusions because subconsciously, I wanted 'the modern world' to agree me. God help me if I did.
However i would like you to show me how you derived it from the quran...? (i think you have derived it from reading INTO the quran....this is not a criticism or a slant at you...)
I have already done so above. What you can do is to critique my explaination. I would happy for you to do so. Show me where I am reading into al-quraan. I have taken great care not to do so but if I did, I will correct myself.
Also,in practice what does the quranic state say about adultery,theft,mischief in the land when committed by muslims who dont believe in the quranic punishments...? Also do muslims who dont believe in the quranic punishments have a right to change or modify these laws by democratic,peaceful means...?
It would be like living in the UK. I don't believe in paying taxes but if I live here, I am 'muslim' to the laws of the UK. I can't very well go around killing people either and when prosecuted, shout 'i dont believe murder is wrong'. You live in the system, you abide by it whether you believe in it or not. That makes you a muslim vis-a-vis that system.
In a polity which was founded by believers in al-quraan, if the level of belief in al-quraan falters, then they will change the laws. This will trigger a metaphysical but not legal judgement.
Mquran,i am truely intrigued by your answer,you hold very similiar views to me in some ways....We just disagree on the divinity of the quran and its pracaticality in todays world...
You made a rash judgement on al-quraan by comparing it to judeo-christian traditions. I hope you see now that al-quraan doesn't discriminate against ppl who reject it as divine.
lso think that there are very few that would agree with you on this forum,and they follow the same book,and use a method for 'correct' interpretation as well...
And they will remain your thoughts until people step forward, won't they?
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All I ask for is that you deal with my response fairly. If I'm right, say it and if i'm wrong, tell me why.
My response
You have an underlying assumption that being a 'muslim' indicates belief in al-quraan and its entailments and being a kafir is antithetical to this. This has come from reading translations and de-rooting words from their contexts. Al-quraan is a cogent, coherent text and must be read as such.
While being in imaan entails being in islaam (3/85) - which goes to say that one cannot have belief as defined by al-quraan without submitting in the way al-quraan defines - the opposite isn't true (49/14 - a famous example of this). Firaun himself recognised this by calling himself 'from al-muslimeen' (10/90) relative to the God of bani israil while it is clear that bani israil themselves had kafireen among them (61/14).
In an islamic mulk/domain, a person who is in submission to the laws is a muslim. So being a muslim is an adjective, not a social, cultural, ethnic or even indicative of one's beliefs but one's actions.. It's the same with kafireen.
So when al-quraan says 'almushrikoon are najsun' (9/2 , its pointing to the behaviour of a people who have transgressed God's laws killing, causing mischief etc.
So is your point answered?
I do agree with you mquran ,the labeling system is un-quranic and is used in the traditional translations but as you have pointed out Allah doesn't use labels to differentiate between people .
The quran is differentiating between the good and the bad.
The righteous will be in heaven and the zalimeen in hell.
And people who accept this labeling technique arn't reading and understanding the quran - sorry to say.
thanks.
God Bless.
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Peace mquran. No way can you say that your views are representative of islam,the quran or quran only methodology... Probably about a handful of people agree with you...Either they have got it wrong or you....
And really,i believe you have read your own version of 'reality' into the quran by the use of dictionaries,circular logic,random interpretations,apologetics and illusions...
I have seen your techniques now,whereby you conceal/hide many of your more wacky/idiosnycratic interpretations,while publicising those that may be useful in a debate...
I do not equate your views with the quran (even if you think they are from the quran.) ,your views seem to be a mis-mash of your own conclusions about life along with a few 'quranic' injunctions.....Anybody can re-interpret the quran to be more palatable to civility,and then shout to others when they see something as immoral;'what is your criteria pal'...... Your views have become repetitive and you seem OBSESSED with the quran......Never mind that your god in the quran tells you not to idolise anything.....That is yours and others biggest contradiction.....
I have heard from a couple of posters that you are waiting for your prophethood/messengership to be announced.......................I doubt one as biased,irrational,dogmatic and plain grumpy as you will atrract many followers,except the cheerleaders,illusionists,immature and gullible......
I used to respect your intellectual input,but now i realise you are basically a 'quranic' academic with a mis-shapen view of reality....
Peace all. ps; its not too late to change....,chill out,have some fun in life and start to use your own intellect,and not rely upon half-truths and incompletely verified dogmas and illusion... ps; have you ever thought that you need to think quran and islam are superior, because you might have a need for 'superiority/power' over others..? And how old are you,if you dont mind me asking,what experiences have you had in life? (marriage,career,family,etc...??) I feel you are some kind of idealist,with little deep life-experience....
Anyway take my essay as constructive criticism....Im sure you have good and redeming qualities too... handshake bravo
PPs; anybody with views from the QURAN please address the original questions of the thread,with verse of the quran,not aplogetics,wishful thinking and 'unjustified' re-interpretations,which are contradictory with the rest of the book,and with the majority of other 'quran only' members...... -
Peace
My point is how the quran guarantees human rights,including 'muslims behaviour towards non-muslims'
Jibreel has mentioned that to each is their chosen way and that it is not man's place to force belief upon another who will not have it . Jibreel also shows us that mankind is basically from the same stock . These values are pointed out clearly in the reading. Oppression/fitna is worse than slaughter .
Joe
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Peace
not...wishful thinking and 'unjustified' re-interpretations,which are contradictory with the rest of the book
Then do make the necessary adjustments with your re-interpretations and your lack of knowledge even with your 25+ years of study of the book.
Joe
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Peace mquran. No way can you say that your views are representative of islam,the quran or quran only methodology... Probably about a handful of people agree with you...Either they have got it wrong or you....
Lol, I have to say, I have never met anyone with your kind of cheek before. We are discussing what al-quraan says and now you manipulate it to some kind of majority of view. Of course this isn't majority view, but is that what makes is wrong? Seriously, you're laughable and now it's clear to the forum.
And really,i believe you have read your own version of 'reality' into the quran by the use of dictionaries,circular logic,random interpretations,apologetics and illusions...
I will now ask for proof but that's only ceremonial act. I know now you have none to give.
I have seen your techniques now,whereby you conceal/hide many of your more wacky/idiosnycratic interpretations,while publicising those that may be useful in a debate...
Kindly show me which interpretations are 'wacky/idiosyncratic' and by what measure they are so.
I do not equate your views with the quran (even if you think they are from the quran.) ,your views seem to be a mis-mash of your own conclusions about life along with a few 'quranic' injunctions.....Anybody can re-interpret the quran to be more palatable to civility,and then shout to others when they see something as immoral;'what is your criteria pal'......
It's a good question isn't it ? Especially to one who lacks answers such as yourself
Your views have become repetitive and you seem OBSESSED with the quran......Never mind that your god in the quran tells you not to idolise anything.....That is yours and others biggest contradiction.....
Define 'idolised' and show me the source of your definition. I promise you, by that definition, your idol's the guy you see in the mirror daily. BETS, remember BETS?
I have heard from a couple of posters that you are waiting for your prophethood/messengership to be announced.......................
Is the Pope there at the level you've sunk to? Who's announcing my messengership? Will he gazette it in The Sun? If so, make sure it's not on page 3, will you? No one will read it!
I doubt one as biased,irrational,dogmatic and plain grumpy as you will atrract many followers,except the cheerleaders,illusionists,immature and gullible......
Unlike yourself, popularity's not really an issue for me. I know you're trying to please your westernised cliques but to me, human approval means nothing.
I used to respect your intellectual input,but now i realise you are basically a 'quranic' academic with a mis-shapen view of reality....
Coming from a guy UNIVERSALLY ACKNOLWEDGED to have no proof of anything, that's rather incredulous.
Peace all. ps; its not too late to change....,chill out,have some fun in life and start to use your own intellect,and not rely upon half-truths and incompletely verified dogmas and illusion... ps; have you ever thought that you need to think quran and islam are superior, because you might have a need for 'superiority/power' over others..?
Wow, Frasier Crane'd be proud of you. The only problem is, al-islaam isn't about me, it's about serving God as opposed to serving my idols.
And how old are you,if you dont mind me asking,what experiences have you had in life? (marriage,career,family,etc...??) I feel you are some kind of idealist,with little deep life-experience....
I'm 25 years old and all I've done is an intense study of al-quraan. That's why I didn't know al-quraan affords rights to people, I think 'ta'wil' is 'far-fetched meanings' and think Islam is a religion with the same legislative philosophy as Judeo-Christianity. Everything is right Because I think So. Yesterday I said 'Your analysis is in theory 100% correct. Yours is an enlightened,progressive and excellent theory... but today, sensing he's asking me for proof, I completely turn tail and run. Then I question OTHER people's state of being.
PPs; anybody with views from the QURAN please address the original questions of the thread,with verse of the quran,not aplogetics,wishful thinking and 'unjustified' re-interpretations,which are contradictory with the rest of the book,and with the majority of other 'quran only' members......
And since YOU didn't provide proof of your accusations (that i'm reading into al-quraan), you've broken rule 2...AGAIN.
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Peace mquran. Be patient young man,and i will address your points.....But TRY reading my replies.....it does help,and reduces the possibility of STRAW man replies...
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Peace nabi. Some of my re-interpretations are on the forum in my previous posts....But those are only a pragmatic,evolutionary,potential bridge,untill some members reach certainty on what the quran is,and its role....... )
peace all. ps; how does jibrail account for believers not to take allies/friends (3;28.) with un-believers if they are from the same stock.....? How does gibrail define unbelievers...?
Thank you... ) -
I see a problem in this thread. Mquran has forwarded his rebuttal and I see no response from the other side with evidence that addresses the rebuttal. Please be aware if this goes on one will be in breach of Rule 2. I would suggest leaving personal issues and off-topic comments aside and post a rebuttal forthwith.
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Peace SC. Clarify what the rebuttal is,and give time for a response dear.....
(A pathetic blatant misuse of rule 2 by the way........desperate measures by desparate people...
Will the rule be applied to both sides........? Not very likely......) -
What are you going on about? You have time to sit and slingshot people with your comments but no time for a rebuttal? What do you think this is? Chat time?
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Peace SC. How can i rebutt,when i dont know what magical 'unanswered question' you are referring to...? And i think you know what im talking about...?
Also look at your replies to magi,mrs argumentation......?
Has anybody answered magis or danishes questions/comments regarding the 'quran challenge of a surah like it'....? I suggest you post a comment about answering questions properly in that one too,unless you are biased.......
Trash if you will..... mrs predictable...... -
Peace SC. And you decide what to do with my time now.......WOW,some powers you mods have...... )
Chill out mrs,and take it easy.....
peace. handshakereally,take it easy.