Does the quran guarantee equal human rights for all people...?
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Peace SC. How can i rebutt,when i dont know what magical 'unanswered question' you are referring to...?
Here it is for your convenience
Show me where I am reading into al-quraan. I have taken great care not to do so but if I did, I will correct myself.
This is in response to your accusation that my interpretations are hoaxes.
I await your response
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How can i rebutt,when i dont know what magical 'unanswered question' you are referring to...?
And really,i believe you have read your own version of 'reality' into the quran by the use of dictionaries,circular logic,random interpretations,apologetics and illusions...
I have seen your techniques now,whereby you conceal/hide many of your more wacky/idiosnycratic interpretations,while publicising those that may be useful in a debate...
I do not equate your views with the quran (even if you think they are from the quran.) ,your views seem to be a mis-mash of your own conclusions about life along with a few 'quranic' injunctions....Please show how it's unquranic.
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Peace SC. Clarify what the rebuttal is,and give time for a response dear.....
(A pathetic blatant misuse of rule 2 by the way........desperate measures by desparate people...
Will the rule be applied to both sides........? Not very likely......)The reason is one side is actually debating. And apparently the other side doesn't know how to.
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Peace people. The first point is that very few people of a 'quran only' methodology will agree with mqurans final conclusion regarding human rights based on the quran. (and read CAREFULLY what he has said,before trying to say we agree with him.) Also quranically believers should not be-friend disbelievers,should not love disbelievers (even if they are family.) should be harsh against dis-believers,etc,etc...Now you guys full well know the verses i am talking about (328,etc..), now if someone like mquran wants to modify,re-interpret and reform the translations from the ORIGINAL arabic linguistic meanings.....then thats fine with me....But then how can you say the quran has an OBJECTIVE/TIMELESS/CLEAR message when only mquran and a few others can de-crypt its messages AGAINST the actual meaning of the arabic.....?
If i was to say that peoples assertions that their is no verse in the quran that allows hand-choppings were true,then i would be IGNORING the arabic meaning of the quran AND the thousands of people that say hand-chopping is allowed from the quran......
In other words what you guys seem to be saying is that the quran is a SUBJECTIVE book,which anyone can interpret to suit whatever interpretation they wish to be most productive.....AGAIN that is fine by me,but then for mquran and others to state they are following the quran only or gods words is a LOTTERY,and basically dependant on peoples moods,intelligence,desires,subjective opinions,etc,etc....
So,based on that analysis,i hold that mqurans and others views on several verses are not actually from NORMAL quranic interpretations but from their own READING into the text.....
There is little rhyme or reason,or pragmatism to many of these interpretations......
I mean,some believe the prophets are not real people but archetypes (which is fine by me.) while others believe very strongly that the prophets are REAL people that existed......Is a person not allowed to question a persons READING into a text when they come up with mutually contradictory,and non-exclusive principles from the SAME book as other Quran only people....?
In the final phase i would say that it seems apparent that idolisation of a book is DEFINATELY against the tenents of the quran.....Yet it is being done......So i suggest people are reading into the quran what they want.......Again that is fine by me,but it should make people realise that this is not exactly a universal standard then,is it.....?
Peace all. ps;where is the linguistic breakdown of verses,the cross references,the reasonable consensus,the rationale,and the clear verses on universal human rights for all people regardless of beliefs.........? -
Enquirereace people. The first point is that very few people of a 'quran only' methodology will agree with mqurans final conclusion regarding human rights based on the quran. (and read CAREFULLY what he has said,before trying to say we agree with him.) Also quranically believers should not be-friend disbelievers,should not love disbelievers (even if they are family.) should be harsh against dis-believers,etc,etc...Now you guys full well know the verses i am talking about (328,etc..), now if someone like mquran wants to modify,re-interpret and reform the translations from the ORIGINAL arabic linguistic meanings.....then thats fine with me....But then how can you say the quran has an OBJECTIVE/TIMELESS/CLEAR message when only mquran and a few others can de-crypt its messages AGAINST the actual meaning of the arabic.....?
Once again Enquirer has NOT ANSWERED for his allegations.
I will rephrase the questions for the moderators convenience to measure against Enquirer's answers
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Please PROVE that the translations which you stand by is proven insofar as its meaning was projected BY THE TEXT ITSELF and not from a hadith. So far, you've been an arch-sunni in your approach of tafseer.
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Please prove that I'm reading INTO al-quraan. You say I'm projecting something into al-quraan. Give me an EXAMPLE.
Moderators, I ask you to please judge, has this person answered for himself above. Has he shown that i've read INTO al-quraan at any place?
If i was to say that peoples assertions that their is no verse in the quran that allows hand-choppings were true,then i would be IGNORING the arabic meaning of the quran AND the thousands of people that say hand-chopping is allowed from the quran......
Please prove that in Arabic, 'yad' ONLY means 'hands'.
As for the thousands of people, if you care what thousands of people think, you should rejoin the sunni community and renounce your rejection. Don't be a hypocrite, please.
So,based on that analysis,i hold that mqurans and others views on several verses are not actually from NORMAL quranic interpretations but from their own READING into the text.....
SO ? 'so' indicates the reasoning. Your 'reasoning' is Because loads of people don't agree with mquran, he is wrong.
I mean,some believe the prophets are not real people but archetypes (which is fine by me.) while others believe very strongly that the prophets are REAL people that existed......Is a person not allowed to question a persons READING into a text when they come up with mutually contradictory,and non-exclusive principles from the SAME book as other Quran only people....?
Sure he's allowed, if he has ACTUAL EXAMPLES. If he's a slogan-thrower, I don't think he's welcome anywhere except the football stadiums.
In the final phase i would say that it seems apparent that idolisation of a book is DEFINATELY against the tenents of the quran.....Yet it is being done......So i suggest people are reading into the quran what they want.......Again that is fine by me,but it should make people realise that this is not exactly a universal standard then,is it.....?
Peace all. ps;where is the linguistic breakdown of verses,the cross references,the reasonable consensus,the rationale,and the clear verses on universal human rights for all people regardless of beliefsI leave it to the moderators to decide. You've wasted enough of my time. I will ask you ONE question now
You have said 'thousands of people disagree' . Is this a criteria ?
Be brave enough to answer this question.
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Enquirer, I know you have a tough time reading long posts, so I will ask you again.
Give
Me
An
Example
Showing
That
My
Reading
of
Al-quraan
was
a
PROJECTION
INTO
THE TEXT
and
that
the
meaning
is
FALSE.
Can you get that please ? Perhaps we could get someone to translate. What's your original language?
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Peace,
Enquirer, please stop the roundabouts. Yad means more then just hand, and who cares how many people believe it means hand chopping. A lot of people also have different versions of freedom. You always refer to being an individual but your refering to the mayority proofs otherwise.A mayority doesn't make things true or false. Truth doesn't need followers to be true, a lie does, illusions do. From now on, post evidence next to your claims. Show examples, otherwise they are just empty words.
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Peace mr quran. I have given you a response....Re-read it and see what i have written......Why do you need spoon-feeding young man....?
Slogans?......have you read your own posts........?
You trying to get me deleted,banned or such like.....? That shows your scared and agitated,no?
You think me getting banned or deleted will stop the doubts,confusions,inconsistencies,contradictions and plain illusional impracticality of many of the interpretations that have dogged humanity for soo long......?
Think again pal,the tide has turned and this thinking belongs in the library and the margins,and is being extinguished by PRAGMATISM and SECULAR HUMANISM........
Peace all. ps; arnoldyasin; you seem to be getting more contradictory and dogmatic in your recent posts.....You are another one that reads into the quran my friend,i will give you a full response later as well..... -
Peace mr quran. I have given you a response....Re-read it and see what i have written......Why do you need spoon-feeding young man....?
Let me just clarify for my sake, ok
Are you using the 'hand-chopping' as an example that I project meaning into al-quraan?
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contradictionary?dogmatic? proof please......only post claims together with proof........weird you give this response
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Peace arnoldyasin. I will post a full response to you later,im going into town my friend.... yay
Peace mquran;To play along with your style,lets say for arguments sake that a person reads into the quran 'hand-chopping' (which is not what i said about you,which shows you didnt understand my post,yet screamed i didnt answer your question.......... rotfl.) show me how you PROVE he hasnt read into the quran with that interpretation......seriously my friend,you are on a hiding to nothing here....You dont know where i am coming from,you dont have the un-emotional rationale or skills to refute these topics......save yourself the energy young man.....leave it to the qualified people...
peace all. -
The only dogma you can accuse me of is believing in the Quran being from God......plus not believing is also a dogma, depends from which angle you look.
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Peace arnoldyasin. So its okay to be dogmatic in believing the quran is from god....?
In other words all these open discussions,and now you admit its ok to be dogmatic.....?
Thats exactly my point my friend.....No definite,real objectivity or logic just DOGMA....And your a scientist,and all your scientific articles...............?
Does not the quran say to verify its truthfulness properly,not dogmatically...? (1736.) Many here believe in subjective faith,which is fine,but how about them admitting it,rather than trying to debate 'subjective issues'....And no way is purely subjective faith a viable universal faith.....
And pal,you dont know fully what i believe in or dont believe in, so you cant address not believing to me,can you really......?
Peace all. ps; i like ice-cream,but i dont mind if you dont.....thats subjectivity and tolerance....... bravo -
Peace arnoldyasin. So its okay to be dogmatic in believing the quran is from god....?
In other words all these open discussions,and now you admit its ok to be dogmatic.....?
Thats exactly my point my friend.....No definite,real objectivity or logic just DOGMA....And your a scientist,and all your scientific articles...............?
Does not the quran say to verify its truthfulness properly,not dogmatically...? (1736.) Many here believe in subjective faith,which is fine,but how about them admitting it,rather than trying to debate 'subjective issues'....And no way is purely subjective faith a viable universal faith.....
And pal,you dont know fully what i believe in or dont believe in, so you cant address not believing to me,can you really......?
Peace all. ps; i like ice-cream,but i dont mind if you dont.....thats subjectivity and tolerance....... bravoIf you think believing the Quran is from God is dogmatic, then yes, that is the only dogma you can accuse me of, but you know i don't believe in things blindly, i have my reasons to stand where i stand, just like you have your reasons to stand where you stand. Everybody is on it's own path, you know i believe in not judging people. And you have said many times the Quran is not from God, so that is where i based my comment on, so yes i can. But i'm waiting for my contradicting, dogmatic posts you're gonna show to me....
Peace
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peace
enquirer,
Belief in God Itself is "dogmatic." No one can prove God exists, only experience It himself.
So basically, subjective/objective doesn't matter in some things, it's whether they make sense or not.mquran,
Just because the majority doesn't agree with mquran doesn't mean mquran is wrong, but it also doesn't prove he is right. -
Peace arnoldyasin. I will leave you with one example from your previous post.......
a)'i dont believe in things blindly'.
b)'If you think believing the quran is from god is dogmatic then yes,that is the only dogma you can accuse me of'...
So once you have decided ( from initial/partial knowledge and verification.) that the quran is from god,then you no longer have to follow 1736,and dont have to continually verify all the verses,because now you have licence to be dogmatic........?
Many of your posts and those of others hinge upon this classic illogical,circular flaw.Peace phoenix;I empathise with your points,.....So why are folks trying to pass off belief,quran,god etc...as OBJECTIVE,and demanding objective evidence for SUBJECTIVE faith issues........? Its like debating which ice-cream is the best.......(mint for me..... .)
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Peace arnoldyasin. I will leave you with one example from your previous post.......
a)'i dont believe in things blindly'.
b)'If you think believing the quran is from god is dogmatic then yes,that is the only dogma you can accuse me of'...
So once you have decided ( from initial/partial knowledge and verification.) that the quran is from god,then you no longer have to follow 1736,and dont have to continually verify all the verses,because now you have licence to be dogmatic........?
Many of your posts and those of others hinge upon this classic illogical,circular flaw.I believe in the Quran because every verse fits with my understanding of humanity. The Quran proofs itself to me everyday. Where do i say i don't verify the verses? You don't know what i believe and what i know. You don't think i check the Quran everyday? You think i'm stuck? You don't know half of me. I started to believe in the Quran because of my objective approach, and i still believe it now because of that approach. Just because i don't throw the Quran away when an understanding seems to go against humane thinking i'm stuck? No, it means i have patience, till now it has been always the wrong approach that gave this un-humane answer, after research it always showed the real answer was hidden and is more amazing then ever expected. This is not blind, this is called faith.
Peace
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Peace arnoldyasin....Yes its called faith.....subjective faith.....So please dont pass it off as Objective or scientific.......We have our own minds my friend....
Peace,and take it easy...