Difference between Zina and Fahisha

warner

Peace All

Meaning of Fahisha
The Quraan describes "zina" as a Fahisha/Fahisya (1732) and homosexuality of people of Lut as Fahisha (292. Marrying women your fathers married as Fahisha (422). Basically Quraan identifies all prohibited sex as fahisa.

Fahisha (prohibited sex/ illegal sex act) only amounts to ?zina? if it was committed by a married person or a couple. In other words, zina is, fahisha ( prohibited sex) committed by a married man or a woman.

If you look at verse 242 the punishment for the adulterer and adulteress (For committing zina) is 100 lashes. In 3330 the punishment is doubled (200 lashes) for the prophets wife (married woman) if she commits Fahisha. In 425 for Ma Malakat Aymanakum the punishment if they commit Fahisha after becoming committed/married is 50 lashes (married woman). You can see a pattern of punishment and the guilty being married persons.

If unmarried men and women commit prohibited sex it is fahisha but it does not amount to zina. For unmarried men and women committing Fahisha the punishment is imprisonment/house arrest for a while and after that if they repent and amend they are to be forgiven and accepted. (415 and 416).

415
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness/Fahisha, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.

416
And as for the two who are guilty from among you, punish them both; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

There seem to be a time gap between the 2 verses. A time gap is quite possible between verses. If you look at 3350 which gives the go ahead for the prophet to marry as he pleases and one verse after in 3352 it commands him to stop marrying further. It seems the first revealed rule for Fahisha was to punish only the guilty woman by restraining her in her house until death. But the verse says ?or God ordain for them some (other) way? and the ?some other way? is revealed after a certain time by ordering to punish both by restraining them in their houses but if they repent and amend to forgive.

Also some translators have translated as 2 women (415) or 2 men (416) giving wrong meanings to the above 2 verses. Some translators have interchanged adultery, fornication and lewdness as and when they want which has distorted the meaning of sentences mentioned in this article.

In 651 its clear a married woman committing fahisha (zina) can be driven out of home but as for unmarried women to keep them confined to their houses (415). Further it allows taking away part of the dowry given to a married woman committing fahisha (419).

All Fahisha accusations whether regard to married or unmarried people should have 4 witnesses (415 and 24 4). If some one accuses a committed/married woman and could not produce 4 witnesses the person accusing should be given 80 lashes. The 80 lashes do not seem to apply someone accusing an unmarried woman.

Further, believers must realize prohibited sex is a great crime. In 6012 and 2568 zina is ranked with some of the gravest sins.

1732
Yusuf Ali Nor come nigh to adultery for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil opening the road (to other evils).

Pickthall And come not near unto adultery. Lo! It is an abomination and an evil way.

Wa la_ taqrabuz zina_ innahu_ ka_na fa_hisyah(tan), wa sa_'a sabila_(n).

Finally , Please study the Quraan further on this issue and correct my opinion if I am contradicting anywhere.

unknownuser

Salam Warner,

.......

Fahisha (prohibited sex/ illegal sex act) only amounts to ?zina? if it was committed by a married person or a couple. In other words, zina is, fahisha ( prohibited sex) committed by a married man or a woman.

........
Also some translators have translated as 2 women (415) or 2 men (416) giving wrong meanings to the above 2 verses. Some translators have interchanged adultery, fornication and lewdness as and when they want which has distorted the meaning of sentences mentioned in this article.

In 651 its clear a married woman committing fahisha (zina) can be driven out of home but as for unmarried women to keep them confined to their houses (415). Further it allows taking away part of the dowry given to a married woman committing fahisha (419).

All Fahisha accusations whether regard to married or unmarried people should have 4 witnesses (415 and 24 4). If some one accuses a committed/married woman and could not produce 4 witnesses the person accusing should be given 80 lashes. The 80 lashes do not seem to apply someone accusing an unmarried woman.

Further, believers must realize prohibited sex is a great crime. In 6012 and 2568 zina is ranked with some of the gravest sins.

1732
Yusuf Ali Nor come nigh to adultery for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil opening the road (to other evils).

Pickthall And come not near unto adultery. Lo! It is an abomination and an evil way.

Wa la_ taqrabuz zina_ innahu_ ka_na fa_hisyah(tan), wa sa_'a sabila_(n).

......

I would like to know how you came to the conclusion or deduction that zina is defined by the above, that is, in your own words, "zina is, fahisha ( prohibited sex) committed by a married man or a woman"? . How it applies to "married" people only? Any verse is more than welcome. Thank you in advance. peace Myr.

P.S the last "finding" or what I call "joke" you may read on this forum is it means porno!!!!! in other words, you can still be fooling around all day long as long as it is not porno!!!-), even the prostitution business is now legal as long as it is not "porno"-) rotfl

warner

Peace Myr

It is not said in a single verse. But the issues of fahisha and zina are dealt in several verses since different punishment for different groups of people. So you must take all the verses in to consideration when arriving at a meaning otherwise there will be much contradiction.

I am not agreeable with the pornography and public sex theory promoted by some. The verse below says ?open or hidden fahisha?.

6 151

Y. Ali Say "Come I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from" join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents kill not your children on a plea of want; We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not nigh to fahisha whether open or secret; take not life which Allah hath made sacred except by way of justice and law thus doth He command you that ye may learn wisdom.

Pickthall Say Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord hath made a sacred duty for you that ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him and that ye do good to parents, and that ye slay not your children because of penury--We provide for you and for them--and that ye draw not nigh to fahisha whether open or concealed. And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath commanded you, in order that ye may discern.

Transliteration Qul ta'a_lau atlu ma_ harrama rabbukum 'alaikum alla_ tusyriku_ bihi syai'aw wa bil wa_lidaini ihsa_na_(n), wa la_ taqtulu_ aul_dakum min imla_q(in), nahnu narzuqukum wa iyya_hum, wa la_ taqrabul fawa_hisya ma_ zahara minha_ wa ma_ batan(a), wa la_ taqtulun nafsal lati harramalla_hu illa_ bil haqq(i), za_likum wassa_kum bihi la'allakum ta'qilu_n(a).

Quote Myr

P.S the last "finding" or what I call "joke" you may read on this forum is it means porno!!!!! in other words, you can still be fooling around all day long as long as it is not porno!!!-), even the prostitution business is now legal as long as it is not "porno"-)

I am sorry, I did not understand what you asked in this part.

Also

How long can you fool around ?

warner

Peace Myr

You want to know whether zina is good old adultery with its classical meaning.

I hope you agree Fahisha is sinful prohibited sex.

When we read through the verses dealing in Fahisha and Zina we can observe the following.

All sex related evil is described as Fahisha (2928, 422, 1224 , 226
Zina is a Fahisha (1732)
Zina and Fahisha are both grouped with same and similar grave sins.(1731-33,
2568, 6012 , 6151)
Zina and Fahisha both need 4 witnesses to get the guilty verdict. (415 , 244)
To confine the woman to the house if she commits fahisha ( 415)
To punish the 2 involved , but after if they repent and amend to forgive (416)
It is allowed to marry believing women, women from the people of the book, believing Ma Malakat Aymankum but all of them are expected not to commit Fahisha . (55 , 425)

To stripe both the man and the woman committing zina 100 lashes ( 242 )

If any of prophets wife commits fahisha the punishment to be doubled ( 3330)
If the Fahisha is committed by Ma Malakat Aymanakum after she is married it should be half as for a committed/married woman. (425)
The husband has the right take away part of the dower (419) given and also to evict her out of the house if the wife commits fahisha (651)
A person committing zina should only marry another person with the same guilt or an idol worshipper. It is forbidden for a believer to marry such person. (243)

These are the numbers in the equation; I leave it to you to come up with the plausible missing piece.

And there is an interesting connection in the below mentioned verses related to this subject for some one who can reflect.

1732

Yusuf Ali Nor come nigh to adultery for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil opening the road (to other evils).

Pickthall And come not near unto adultery. Lo! It is an abomination and an evil way.

Wa la_ taqrabuz zina_ innahu_ ka_na fa_hisyah(tan), wa sa_'a sabila_(n).

And

7 19

Yusuf Ali O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the garden and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish but approach not this tree or ye run into harm and transgression."

Pickthall And (unto man) O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden and eat from whence ye will, but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers.

Wa ya_ a_damuskun anta wa zaujukal jannata fakula_ min haisu syi'tuma_ wa la_ taqraba_ ha_zihisy syajarata fataku_na_ minaz za_limin(a).

For both prohibitions ( zina and eating from the tree) in 1732 and 719 God is commanding ?not to approach/not to come near ?.

The verse continues relating the incident how Satan seduced Adam and Eve to eat from tree (719-726) and the verse ends.

7 27

Yusuf Ali O ye children of Adam! let not satan seduce you in the same manner as he got your parents out of the garden stripping them of their raiment to expose their shame for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.

Pickthall O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that be might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not.

Ya_ bani a_dama la_ yaftinannakumusy syaita_nu kama_ akhraja abawaikum minal jannati yanzi'u 'anhuma_ liba_sahuma_ liyuriyahuma_ sau'a_tihima_, innahu_ yara_kum huwa wa qabiluhu_ min haisu la_ taraunahum, inna_ ja'alnasy syaya_tina auliya_'a lillazina la_ yu'minu_n(a).

7 28

Yusuf Ali When they do aught that is shameful they say "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus" say "Nay Allah never commands what is shameful do ye say of Allah what ye know not?"

Pickthall And when they do some lewdness they say We found our fathers doing it and Allah hath enjoined it on us. Say Allah, verily, enjoineth not lewdness. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?

Wa iza_ fa'alu_ fa_hisyatan qa_lu_ wajadna_ 'alaiha_ a_ba_'ana_ walla_hu amarana_ biha_, qul innalla_ha la_ ya'muru bilfahsya_'(i), ataqu_lu_na'alalla_hi ma_ la_ ta'lamu_n(a).

CavemanDoctor

Peace All

If unmarried men and women commit prohibited sex it is fahisha but it does not amount to zina. For unmarried men and women committing Fahisha the punishment is imprisonment/house arrest for a while and after that if they repent and amend they are to be forgiven and accepted. (415 and 416).

Peace warner

Good thread. The next question becomes what exactly "prohibited sex" (fahisha, but not zina) is. Kissing? hand holding? etc. Any verses you can think of that can clue us into this? If not, does this imply that each Quranic society determines what fahisha is according to its own exigencies, somewhat akin to the open-ended "lengthen your garment" commandment regarding women's dress?

warner

Dear CMDr

6 151

Yusuf Ali Say "Come I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from" join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents kill not your children on a plea of want; We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not nigh to fahisha whether open or secret; take not life which Allah hath made sacred except by way of justice and law thus doth He command you that ye may learn wisdom.

Pickthall Say Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord hath made a sacred duty for you that ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him and that ye do good to parents, and that ye slay not your children because of penury--We provide for you and for them--and that ye draw not nigh to fahisha whether open or concealed. And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath commanded you, in order that ye may discern.

TransliterationQul ta'a_lau atlu ma_ harrama rabbukum 'alaikum alla_ tusyriku_ bihi syai'aw wa bil wa_lidaini ihsa_na_(n), wa la_ taqtulu_ aul_dakum min imla_q(in), nahnu narzuqukum wa iyya_hum, wa la_ taqrabul fawa_hisya ma_ zahara minha_ wa ma_ batan(a), wa la_ taqtulun nafsal lati harramalla_hu illa_ bil haqq(i), za_likum wassa_kum bihi la'allakum ta'qilu_n(a).

I missed this verse in the earlier post.

6151 also says come not near/do not approach Fahisha just like in 719 ?approach not this tree? and 1732 ?come not near unto zina?.

How do you ?come not near? to zina or fahisha?

If Fahisha is the act itself, maybe ?coming near? is whatever close to it or leading to it.

TAJ

Peace Warner,

I believe that " La Taqraboo" does not only mean "don't go near it". It could also mean "don't be related to it". The same way the word "'Oly Al Qurbaa"= "Relatives" is used.
Because one can be related to Zina by for example luring others into it but not he himslef necessarily commiting that sin.

warner

Peace Myr

Lets look at this in another way.

We are asked to judge by what God has revealed. The prophet when he lived amongst the people judged according to the Quran. The Quran has set of laws and few punishments prescribed for crimes such as murder , theft and fahisha. Also there can not be contradictions in the Quran and the law verses can not fall in to the category of allegorical.

Let?s take the verses connected to zina and fahisha and try to determine how the prophet would have judged. Or more close to home lets imagine you have to judge, using the Quran , and prescribe punishments to following different sets of people who are accused of fahisha. To make things easy we will assume there are 4 reliable witnesses in each case.

an unmarried man and a woman
2 men or 2 women accused of homosexuality
a married man or a woman

unknownuser

Believe me Brother, I don't know how many times in the past I read all the verses you posted but I still fail to see that zina applies to married people ONLY

Peace sister

I?m like you, I don?t think that Zina only applies to married couples, I totally believe that it applies to any sex outside the legal relations the Quran told us about, in fact there is a hint in the Quran that clearly talked about a a single man and a single woman prior to marriage and described them as being Zani and Zania

Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.

(3)

-> 243 is telling us a fact about a Zani , ? Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever?, the same fact was told about a Zania, ? nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman?, clearly the verse is talking about a single man and a single woman who commit Zina regularly then both decided to marry, I believe the verse means that they want to marry and continue their filthy life style, therefore they won?t marry but partners like them or unbelievers the least

243 has enough logic and common sense to confirm to us that the Zani and Zania can also be single men and women

Salam

warner

Peace Ahmed,

I think the verse 243 is the continuation of the punishment in 24 2.

How can you base this verse to conclude that the verse ?clearly talked about a single man and a single woman prior to marriage? since the verse can be very well talking about post marriage (zani and zania) and after the 100 stripes.

If zina is ?any sex outside the legal relations the Quran told us about? how do you define Fahisha?

Who are the people ?outside the legal relations the Quran told us about??

Also ???to the Believers such a thing is forbidden? (243) is this not a command to the believers.

Quote AB

?..In fact there is a hint in the Quran that clearly talked about? and ?..enough logic and common sense?

Is this fact or a hint or clear or logic or common sense or is it just that ?you believe??

warner

Peace Taj

Thank you for the input. Isn?t it just further proof that God is commanding man not even to be connected or associated with zina or fahisha.

InSearchOf

Peace Warner,

Quote Warner

Quote AB
?..In fact there is a hint in the Quran that clearly talked about? and ?..enough logic and common sense?
Is this fact or a hint or clear or logic or common sense or is it just that you believe??

The hint was 24.3 from AB. No doubt it is a fact. Message is clear. Your logic and your common sense is something you need to calibrate pragmatically. Otherwise it is easy to understand what he said.

Ta da!

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Peace mate,

I think the verse 243 is the continuation of the punishment in 24 2.

Sure, I agree, here is both verses to make it easy

2- The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

3- Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.

(2)
(3)

How can you base this verse to conclude that the verse ?clearly talked about a single man and a single woman prior to marriage? since the verse can be very well talking about post marriage (zani and zania) and after the 100 stripes.

I don?t really understand what you mean that the verse is talking about post marriage (zani and zania) and after the 100 stripes?

Firstly 242 is talking generally about the punishment of the Zani and Zania, the verse never talked post of after marriage in any way

243 however is a general statement about the Zani and Zania regarding a very specific affair, that specific affair is marriage ?Nikah?, it tells us that a man who is Zani ?continuously having illegal sex? if will marry then will marry a Zania like him or a Mushrikah, same with a woman who is Zania ?continuously having illegal sex? if will marry then will marry a Zani like her or a Mushrik, on the other hand this will never happen in the case of a believer because and simply a believer will not be Zani or Zania from the first place

Therefore 243 is a very logical evidence that a Zani or a Zania can be anyone who is not married, which leads to that Zina is simply ?Illegal Sex?, Zina can?t be sex outside the wedlock alone, it is any illegal sex regardless you are married or not, this understanding is more confirmed when we look at the following verses

29- And those who guard their private parts,

30- Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed,

31- But those who trespass beyond this are transgressors;-

(29)
(30)
(31)

The verses describes the believers who hold to their Salat

guard their private parts
Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed

Then it tells us that any sexual act beyond that is Transgression ? But those who trespass beyond this are transgressors?, same decription given to Lut?s people if you remember

The same message letter by letter was repeated in sura 23 but was describing the believers in general

5- And those who guard their private parts,

6- Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed,

7- But those who trespass beyond this are transgressors;-

(5)
(6)
(7)

If zina is ?any sex outside the legal relations the Quran told us about? how do you define Fahisha?

I was actually preparing a comment regarding Fahisha but this is going to take me some time, briefly, I can see where you are mixed up

Zina is a noun to describe an illegal sexual act, Fahisha is sort of adjective of a very bad act, therefore Zina can be described as Fahisha, but Fahisha can be a description to any other filthy act other than Zina, for example, marrying the wives of our fathers is Fahisha as described to us in the Quran, however the act is perfectly legal, i.e. we are talking marriage in here, in fact Allah allowed existing marriages of that kind to continue after the revelation of this law, this indicates that the act in itself is legal but became forbidden i.e. is a forbidden legal marriage, it has nothing to do with sex indeed rather the mix and confusion of the relationships between the new children and existing relatives of those married couples. At one point of time also brothers married their sisters and was perfectly legal by Allah.

Who are the people ?outside the legal relations the Quran told us about??

I understand the message of Zina as any illegal sex, so I don?t understand your question, do you want me to define illegal sex?

Also ???to the Believers such a thing is forbidden? (243) is this not a command to the believers.

I think you understood 243 message wrong, I believe the message means that a true believer won?t be a Zani or Zania from the first place therefore Allah will never destine them to marry Zani/Zania or Mushrik/Mushrikah

Quote AB
?..In fact there is a hint in the Quran that clearly talked about? and ?..enough logic and common sense?

Is this fact or a hint or clear or logic or common sense or is it just that ?you believe??

Now we are talking, LOL

I like this way of talking I hope you won?t get upset in the future, now to answer your question

You pick

Cheers

warner

Peace Ahmed

The last part of my previous post was to wake you up from your slumber. I hope you will not be angry and contemplate revenge. Let me explain; I can not express enough, the importance of this forum to people, because while almost all Muslims are following some kind of conjecture a board like this makes it possible to understand Islam for the few who only wants to follow what God has revealed. You are an important part of this board. Respected, at the same time your views followed by others. Also highly knowledgeable and highly fluent in Arabic and always there helping, discussing and trying to make people understand. A handful of members like you make this board possible, God willing, and make us return to discuss in here. I believe the most senior and the most knowledgeable in this board should be more responsible with their view and their posts. By giving their opinion without careful study, not reading through an entire thread before coming to conclusion also rushing into conclusions and interpretations, not reading or researching the Quran thoroughly and not reading the discussion carefully but on the surface, blindly supporting an established fact without verifying the new unfolding facts can not be accepted from the seniors.

Hope I achieved what I wanted, hit AB hard enough to draw his attention so he will be in guard and careful with his opinions. This is a great obligation because we are interpreting God in this board and we might lead others astray if we comment wrong. Also I put myself in the firing line with AB for the betterment of the board and guess it?s worth the sacrifice for the good of this forum. And hope the quality of AB s work in this board will go up God willing.

Peace be upon you brother.

If you read this thread from top you will find we have already discussed most of the points you are making. About zina and Fahisha , about homosexuality of people of Lut and about marrying wives your father married.

You do not have to define illegal sex (I like to call it prohibited sex to mean prohibited by God) because God defines prohibited sex in 235-7 and 7029-31.

First, the Quraan says sex is only allowed with the women whom you are married to and Ma Malakat Aymankum. Any sex outside this is a fahisha.

Then the Quraan explains the women whom you are allowed to marry and women who are prohibited marry.

Quote AB
For example, marrying the wives of our fathers is Fahisha as described to us in the Quran, however the act is perfectly legal, i.e. we are talking marriage in here, in fact Allah allowed existing marriages of that kind to continue after the revelation of this law, this indicates that the act in itself is legal but became forbidden i.e. is a forbidden legal marriage, it has nothing to do with sex indeed rather the mix and confusion of the relationships between the new children and existing relatives of those married couples. At one point of time also brothers married their sisters and was perfectly legal by Allah.

Marrying a woman your father married is described as an atrocious deed, hateful and an evil way (?.fa_hisyataw wa maqta_(n), wa sa_'a sabila_(n).422). But the same can not be applied to marrying 2 sisters at the same time. Being married to 2 sisters at the same time is not described as a fahisha but the Quraan prohibits it. But you can always marry another sister if you divorce the one you are married to or one dies.

Marriage rules or laws to different people or groups of people are clearly identified in the Quraan and we can not generalize these relationships or laws based on sex or the act of marriage. Example sex becomes an important issue in marriage with your step daughters and shows clearly how specific is God with his laws ????..stepdaughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters)???..?(423)

Quote AB
however the act is perfectly legal, i.e. we are talking marriage in here, in fact Allah allowed existing marriages of that kind to continue after the revelation of this law, this indicates that the act in itself is legal but became forbidden i.e. is a forbidden legal marriage

I do not understand how you can say the act itself is legal. The act here is ?marrying your fathers ex wives?. Also we can not talk of marriage and sex separately because if marriage is not allowed obviously you can not have sex either with that person. Can someone say I am doing trading which is perfectly legal because the act is business but I am trading in coke. Forbidden Legal Business. Can I eat pork and say doing a perfectly legal act of eating but only the pork is illegal. I can not understand what you are trying to say or how it is important to the matter at discussion.

2- The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

3- Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.

Quote ABI think you understood 243 message wrong, I believe the message means that a true believer won?t be a Zani or Zania from the first place therefore Allah will never destine them to marry Zani/Zania or Mushrik/Mushrikah

First the verse is not saying a true believer will not ever commit zina but the verse is telling a believer should not marry a person who has committed zina. The first part of the verse is talking about marriage between zani and zania and second part says for the believer ??that/such a thing is forbidden for the believers?. The word ?that/such a thing? indicating to marrying zani or zania.

If the verse 242 and 243 "clearly"deals only regard to unmarried people is there any where in the Quraan which prescribes punishment for married people committing extra marital sex.

In the verse 425 if a Ma Malakat Aymanakum after marriage commits fahisha she should be punished half as much as a married woman. Why does the Quran mentions ?after marriage? as a qualifier for punishment and how do you stipulate half punishment ?

Why did you add ?true? to the believers above. Does the Quraan address the believers and true believers in 2 different ways? Does not the Quraan refer to believers as ?BELIEVERS? in all other places? Where and how in the Quraan is this difference shown. (please do not quote verses dealing in good qualities a believer should have to become righteous)

Quote AB
?single man and a single woman who commit Zina regularly then both decided to marry, I believe the verse means that they want to marry and continue their filthy life style?

If unmarried persons committing zina decide to marry why do you think they are continuing their filthy life style? Since once they are legally married sex will not be prohibited anymore.

Is there any possibility a believer can commit zina (zina according to your definition) but repent and amend later?

Quote AB
Therefore 243 is a very logical evidence that a Zani or a Zania can be anyone who is not married, which leads to that Zina is simply ?Illegal Sex?, Zina can?t be sex outside the wedlock alone, it is any illegal sex regardless you are married or not, this understanding is more confirmed when we look at the following verses

The verses 7029-31 and 235-7 commands one should guard their private parts (restrain from sex) from all except with their wives/spouses and with Ma Malakat Aymanakum.
Please explain how are you trying to establish from these 2 verses (235-7 and 7029-31) that single/unmarried people having sex is called zina .

If verses 242 - 3 are dealing with unmarried couples having sex what is verses 415 and 416 dealing with.

If you answer the above questions we can move to the next level.

TAJ

Peace Ahmed,

If an "unmarried" man and woman were caught during the act, what will they say to defend themselves? They would immediately say that they are husband and wife, even if nobody else knew that. But what would married people say if they were caught with people other than their legal partners? Al Zani and Al Zania are people who have no way out of it.

But this law is strectched in the Islamic world. A married woman will not be able to get out of it if she was caught in the act, but for a married man, he can always say that the woman he was with is just another wife!

decepticus

I am wondering how it may be possible to FOUR honest, credible people , good muslims, to witness a forbidden sexual act! And remember spying is forbidden! God says "And do not spy on one another" (49-12)
A second subject of "worry" what is behind Quran speaking about the eventuality of Zina committed by the wives of the prophet PBUH? This had not happened (I suppose) and even had no chance to happen!

I strongly believe that every word in the Quran has its reason of being there, every sentence is to be deeply studied and discussed and I think that something else is still hiding behind these verses since taking them "literally" doesn't make sense.

group

CavemanDoctor

Peace Ahmed

First, the Quraan says sex is only allowed with the women whom you are married to and Ma Malakat Aymankum. Any sex outside this is a fahisha.

Peace warner. As per your understanding, who are Ma Malakat Aymankum. We can have sexual relations with our wife and Ma Malakat Aymankum; this latter phrase must be important.

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed

Peace mate

The last part of my previous post was to wake you up from your slumber.

Ok, thanks but I need to know how did you know that I was slumped?, I don?t write while sleeping though, I may only walk while sleeping and sometimes walk like Egyptians

I hope you will not be angry and contemplate revenge.

LOL, no bro, I?m not angry and I don?t seek revenge from anyone despite many times I desired to but somehow stopped myself and decided to leave it to Allah. In many occasions though a tough REPLY not a revenge must be executed, that?s all

Let me explain; I can not express enough, the importance of this forum to people, because while almost all Muslims are following some kind of conjecture a board like this makes it possible to understand Islam for the few who only wants to follow what God has revealed. You are an important part of this board. Respected, at the same time your views followed by others. Also highly knowledgeable and highly fluent in Arabic and always there helping, discussing and trying to make people understand. A handful of members like you make this board possible, God willing, and make us return to discuss in here. I believe the most senior and the most knowledgeable in this board should be more responsible with their view and their posts. By giving their opinion without careful study, not reading through an entire thread before coming to conclusion also rushing into conclusions and interpretations, not reading or researching the Quran thoroughly and not reading the discussion carefully but on the surface, blindly supporting an established fact without verifying the new unfolding facts can not be accepted from the seniors.

Thanks bro, I hope the above is not a very well politically put insult, LOL

Hope I achieved what I wanted, hit AB hard enough to draw his attention so he will be in guard and careful with his opinions.

Now we are having a problem, so you think I don?t draw attentions to my opinions?, well I believe your statement of judgment is flawed, because I have zillions of opinions that I hold from the public to avoid as much as I can contributing to the conjectures, I hardly put any comment unless it is been fully qualified by the Quran, if not qualified yet then I dodge the subject and continue researching, I?m very selective bro to the threads I contribute to

Now the subject in hand is the title of this thread ? Difference between Zina and Fahisha

Zina is an act of Fahisha as many other filthy acts, therefore the title is really misleading, because Zina is described as Fahisha, I responded to your question and tried to explain to you that there is no difference other than Fahisha describes any filthy act hence Zina was described as Fahisha, so I was into the subject without any play up or confusion

On the other hand I read somewhere in the thread that some consider Zina is for married people only, WHICH IS DAMN WRONG, Zina is any illegal sex between any unmarried couples, but I know that 243 is clearly talking about a Zani and Zania POST MARRIAGE, hence Zani and Zania can also be single couples, I didn?t stretch nor manipulated anything, some understood what I said with ease and that is fruit to me at the end of the day, but I can?t make all understand it, all I can do is to be as simple and clear as I can and leave the rest to Allah

This is a great obligation because we are interpreting God in this board and we might lead others astray if we comment wrong.

Sure, therefore for those who suggest that Zina applies only to married couples, I required a quick action to prove USING THE QURAN that Zina applies to singles as well, I want parents to be aware that the girl friend/boy friend relationships are nothing but Zina and the parents are nothing but pimps

Also I put myself in the firing line with AB for the betterment of the board and guess it?s worth the sacrifice for the good of this forum.

Mate, I don?t work in a firing squad, having a point is what will be worth the sacrifices

And hope the quality of AB s work in this board will go up God willing.
Peace be upon you brother.

Inshaallah mate

Peace

If you read this thread from top you will find we have already discussed most of the points you are making. About zina and Fahisha , about homosexuality of people of Lut and about marrying wives your father married.

Don?t know what you mean?, do you mean that I just wasted my time?

You do not have to define illegal sex (I like to call it prohibited sex to mean prohibited by God) because God defines prohibited sex in 235-7 and 7029-31.

Fine, I accept prohibited sex, sounds better to me

First, the Quraan says sex is only allowed with the women whom you are married to and Ma Malakat Aymankum. Any sex outside this is a fahisha.

Yes, but it said sex outside that is Zina and Zina is Fahisha as you know, now why you are trying to understand the message as it is for the married couples only, if it says that you are not allowed sex outside marriage, then this means

if you are not married then you are not allowed sex
if you are married then you are not allowed sex with others

you took only the message as number 2, now I ask you why you drop number 1?

The prohibited item is illegal sex, not illegal sex when you are married, the verse never said that this only applies to married couples

Also by stating which status we are allowed to have legal sex, does not mean that the prohibition only apply to that status

Then the Quraan explains the women whom you are allowed to marry and women who are prohibited marry.

Fine, but that is irrelevant to the subject we have in hand , we are discussing sex, not marriage, marriage only mentioned because sex is a small part of marriage and the only way to have it legally

Anyway that verse has nothing to do with the definition of Zina ?our subject?

Marrying a woman your father married is described as an atrocious deed, hateful and an evil way (?.fa_hisyataw wa maqta_(n), wa sa_'a sabila_(n).422).

Yeh I agree it is an awful act to marry the ex wife of your father, not because of the marriage rather because of the mix and confusion of the new children relationships with existing relatives, the act itself ?Marriage? is legal and this is evident from the same verse as Allah allowed existing marriages of that kind to continue, if it was about sex then Allah has allowed filthy sexual act to continue every day ?God forbids? through existing marriages of that kind and between those married couples, this was new law that was not forced since the existence of man on earth, what is illegal in the act is to marry the ex wife of your father, it has nothing to do with sex as far as I?m concerned

But the same can not be applied to marrying 2 sisters at the same time. Being married to 2 sisters at the same time is not described as a fahisha but the Quraan prohibits it. But you can always marry another sister if you divorce the one you are married to or one dies.

That is why you are comparing apples with mangos, I don?t really understand what marrying two sisters has to do with the definition of Zina that we have in hand?

Marriage rules or laws to different people or groups of people are clearly identified in the Quraan and we can not generalize these relationships or laws based on sex or the act of marriage. Example sex becomes an important issue in marriage with your step daughters and shows clearly how specific is God with his laws ????..stepdaughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters)???..?(423)

Again bro, what is the relevance of what you say regarding what I said, here is what I said briefly all along in this thread

Zina is illegal sex and you inspired me that it means prohibited sex and I accepted that
Fahisha is a word to describe a very bad Act, hence Zina can be described as Fahisha
What is illegal in marrying the ex wives of our fathers has nothing to do with sexual desires rather the mix in relationships between the new children and existing relatives

so please identify to me where I got it wrong again, thanks

to be continued.....

unknownuser

I do not understand how you can say the act itself is legal.

Of course marriage is legal, if that act is that sexually bad, why Allah allowed exiting relations to continue?,

The act here is ?marrying your fathers ex wives?

Excuse me bro, we have two acts in hand

marrying
marrying whom

and marrying is legal, marrying whom is the one that may be illegal

. Also we can not talk of marriage and sex separately because if marriage is not allowed obviously you can not have sex either with that person.

I don?t know what you mean bro, marriage for me is not about sex, sex is just a small part of marriage, sex without marriage is Zina as far as I believe and according to 243 Zina applies also for singles

Can someone say I am doing trading which is perfectly legal because the act is business but I am trading in coke. Forbidden Legal Business. Can I eat pork and say doing a perfectly legal act of eating but only the pork is illegal. I can not understand what you are trying to say or how it is important to the matter at discussion.

Bro, please don?t twist my words, please read it again, anyway here is what I said in different way, it is sort of serious of acts connected in serial and we will have an outcome at the end

In computers if we have two circuits connected in serial then

0 + 1 = 0

and

1+ 0 = 0

assuming that 0/1 is Off/On and considering marriage legality as 1 (On) and marrying the ex wife of our father illegality is 0 (Off), therefore combining the two acts in serial will always result in 0 ?illegality? (Off)

I hope this example made it clearer, but please apply this computer example on your trade example and I?m sure you will reach the same outcome

2- The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

3- Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.

First the verse is not saying a true believer will not ever commit zina

Fine, but that what you expect from a true believer, now the word ?Horrima? here does not really mean a law enforced by Allah, Fluent Arabic speakers will understand it with ease, but I know it is tricky, the word here means ?It will not happen to the believers?

but the verse is telling a believer should not marry a person who has committed zina.

You understood it as a law, but I?m telling you bro, this was never a law in Islam

The first part of the verse is talking about marriage between zani and zania

Therefore it was talking about SINGLE Zani and Zania, yes?

second part says for the believer ??that/such a thing is forbidden for the believers?. The word ?that/such a thing? indicating to marrying zani or zania.

Yes but it is NOT A LAW, the word Haram can be used in many different contexts, like laws, or scared, or ?will not happen?, and in here it is a mere statement that this will not happen to a true believer, the whole verse is actually a mere general statement that can accommodate exceptions

If the verse 242 and 243 "clearly"deals only regard to unmarried people is there any where in the Quraan which prescribes punishment for married people committing extra marital sex.

You have a very closed mind bro by either limiting your understanding or trying hard to limit the understanding of others, as I said verse 242 NEVER MENTOONED post marriage status, verse 243 is a general statement ?something for us to observe? in this life, and it contains a HINT that Zani and Zania can also be single couples

I never said 243 is specifically telling us that Zani and Zania must be singles, bloody logically speaking 243 says

If the Zani will marry then he will marry a Zania like him, ?obviously the Zani and Zania mentioned must be singles? or what do you think?, do you think it was talking about an already married Zani and already married Zania then they will marry again for the second time?

In the verse 425 if a Ma Malakat Aymanakum after marriage commits fahisha she should be punished half as much as a married woman. Why does the Quran mentions ?after marriage? as a qualifier for punishment and how do you stipulate half punishment ?

The verse is talking about lesbian relationships, so it is irrelevant to our discussion

But I agree that the act Lesbianism is Fahisha

Why did you add ?true? to the believers above. Does the Quraan address the believers and true believers in 2 different ways? Does not the Quraan refer to believers as ?BELIEVERS? in all other places? Where and how in the Quraan is this difference shown. (please do not quote verses dealing in good qualities a believer should have to become righteous)

I?m not going to quote any verse bro, I just don?t understand what the heck you are talking about, therefore I sadly have to dismiss it, I?m trying to make it simple and you are trying to make it really hard

We are discussing 243 that it has a hint that Zani and Zania can be single couples, please address this issue only for now then we move on but without confusing and zillions of questions in one short paragraph, cheers

If unmarried persons committing zina decide to marry why do you think they are continuing their filthy life style?

I don?t really now, possibly a pimp?

Or possibly a sexual addict but wants a good image in the flawed societies?

How about a homo politician who wants some decent image?

Well, possibly paul mccarthy was a zani all his life that is why he married a zania like him who used to sleep with the freak Saudi Kings for thousands of bucks an hour I don?t know, did you hear the current news affairs?

Well bro, life has zillions of many examples, I myself have seen many zani and zania married together, LOL

Since once they are legally married sex will not be prohibited anymore.

Hmmmm, sorry?, but they still can go and sleep with others, right?

Is there any possibility a believer can commit zina (zina according to your definition) but repent and amend later?

Of course believers may commit Zina and Allah forgiveness will be wide open, but if they insist of doing it then they will have a serious problem and consequences

135- And those who when they commit an indecency or do injustice to their souls remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their faults-- and who forgives the faults but Allah, and (who) do not knowingly persist in what they have done.

136- (As for) these-- their reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them, and excellent is the reward for those who work (and strive)!

(135)
(136)

-> See, those who committed ?Fahisha? then repent and DON?T INSIST on what they have done WHILE THEY KNOW, ? -- their reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them, and excellent is the reward for those who work (and strive)!?

now you asked if a believer can commit Zina ?According to my definition? but repent and amend later?

I hope I gave an answer in 3135-136, but what puzzles me is the bolded words above you used, I believe it was according to my definition, Zina = Illegal Sex, and now I revised my definition and accepted your definition that Zina = Prohibited Sex, this in effect means that Zina = Prohibited Sex = Illegal Sex, and I?m sure that Prohibited = Illegal 100%, so what you were trying to say exactly by the words in bold above?

The verses 7029-31 and 235-7 commands one should guard their private parts (restrain from sex) from all except with their wives/spouses and with Ma Malakat Aymanakum.
Please explain how are you trying to establish from these 2 verses (235-7 and 7029-31) that single/unmarried people having sex is called zina .

Man, I?m getting tired of this, the verses is talking about all people single or not, it is obvious from the context,

Now I?m not using the above to prove that Zina applies to singles, I?M USING 243 to prove that Zina applies to singles

I only used the above as an extra weight to the compelling evidence 243, because the above verses does not really say married or not for those who guard their parts, however you are trying to twist it by suggesting that because it says ?EXCPET FOR THEIR PARTNERS? then the verse is directed to those with partners, well, thanks for the laugh, sorry this was the effect it had on me

If verses 242 - 3 are dealing with unmarried couples having sex what is verses 415 and 416 dealing with.

Let me say this again 242-3 are only related from the Zina act point of view, one is the punishment the other is a mere general statement for us to observe, there is no direct relation between the two verses to be honest rather they are talking about the same filthy act in two different aspects, the first is the punishment and the second is very specific regarding whom they will marry of they want to marry, therefore 243 leads to, Zina applies to singles, you know the boy friend/girl friend relationships, comeon don?t be shy, I have been there before

If you answer the above questions we can move to the next level.

Honestly bro, most of your questions were repeated and I believe you just wasted my time, no offence though, I like you bro

Salam and take care

unknownuser

Sorry brothers and sisters, got to get going and will respond to the other comments later today

Salam