Difference between Zina and Fahisha

warner

Peace Taj

Interesting observation. I failed to notice the connection earlier.

Do you believe Islam allows polygamy?

warner

Peace All

Peace Phoenix

Glad I could be of any help.

I noticed, you kept repeating something very important in your post. Also Taj in her post.

Quote Phoenix

?We need to make sure that it is with a person who we are committed to and who is committed to us.?

?I think it is the commitment that matters. A legal contract changes nothing between two people. They're commitment (or the lack of it) stays whether they are considered married or unmarried by law and society.?

Quote Taj

A'zzani and A'zzaniah are people who betrayed their commitment to one partner and included another partner in their private affairs

COMMITMENT.

Commitment and committed are very important for this discussion .The main point of contention in this thread is that some believe (that includes me and Taj) zina is prohibited sex by married people outside their marriages while some see that zina is prohibited sex by both married and unmarried people. Below I try to establish how and why the Quraan identifies the married and unmarried among people.

The reason the word ?committed? is important because the Quraan identifies women as nisa when it is generally referring to women and then whenever it identifies a group within them it uses a qualifier. Example Orphan women, Believing women, women of the people of the book, prophets wives, Ma Malakt Aymanakum( In this case a double qualifier because the Quraan identifies ?believing? among the Ma Malakt Aymankum ) and MuhSanat women. And there is always a reason for using a qualifier and identifying different groups .

The Quraan highlightsand gives importance to commitment with regard to marriage many times. The word MuhSanat is used in the Quraan for committed but always mistranslated by many as chaste or virtuous or honorable among other things.

I hope my brother Ahmed and Taj will correct me if my Arabic is flawed (Since my first language is not Arabic) in my understanding of the verses below.

I paste below a note on this subject which I wrote on another thread

Mystery of MohSanat and MuhSinin

Peace All

The word MohSanat/MuhSinin occurs few times in the Quraan (I have listed the verses below) with regard to laws relating to women. This word is used in important law issues related to marriage, slandering and adultery also related punishments. Almost all translators translated this word as chaste, virtuous, free, independent, married etc. The problem is if you use any of these meanings in all verses there were many contradictions. You have to just read through the thread A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23 to see the amount of confusion these 2 words were causing.

I try to determine below the meaning of this word without contradicting any verse . And most importantly you will notice the simple and intelligent way the Quraan uses this word to communicate its message.

AhSanat
Mary is described as AhSanat in 2191 and 6612 to mean committed/dedicated to the temple or Gods service. Mary?s mother committed/devoted her child to the temple in 335 (Muharrar ~ freed from all worldly affairs and specially dedicated to Allah's service). If we take ?protected? as a meaning for AhSanat then it will mean protected by the temple in this context.

2191 Wal lati ahsanat farjaha_ fanafakna_ fiha_ mir ru_hina_ wa ja'alna_ha_ wab naha_ a_yatal lil'a_lamin

6612 Wa maryamab nata imra_nal latu ahsanat farjaha_ fanafahna_ fihi mir ru_hina_ wa sad daqat bikalima_ti rab iha_ wa kutubihi wa ka_nat minal qa_nitin

Mohsanat/Muhsanat means committed or devoted to something or someone. In the following verses it means committed through marriage. And if we use ?protected?, MohSanat should mean protected by (the oath of) marriage.

4 24

Wal muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i illa_ ma_ malakat aima_nukum, kita_balla_hi 'alaikum, wa uhilla lakum ma_ wara_'a za_likum an tabtagu_ bi amwa_likum muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a), famastamta'tum bihi minhunna fa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna faridah(tan), wa la_ juna_ha 'alaikum fima_ tara_daitum bihi mim ba'dil faridah(ti), innalla_ha ka_na'aliman hakima_(n).

Also (prohibited to you are) women committed (committed to other men/married to other men) except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring commitment not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.

In this verse minan nisa is used to convey no married woman is allowed either believing or from the people of the book.

4 25

Wa mal lam yastati' minkum taulan ay yankihal muhsana_til mu'mina_ti famimma_ malakat aima_nukum min fataya_tikumul mu'mina_t(i), walla_ a'lamu bi ima_nikum, ba'dukum mim ba'd(in), fankihu_hunna bi izni ahlihinna wa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna bil ma'ru_fi muhsana_tin gaira musa_fiha_tiw wa la_ muttakhiza_ti akhda_n(in), fa iza_ uhsinna fa in ataina bi fa_hisyatin fa 'alaihinna nisfu ma_ 'alal muhsana_ti minal 'aza_b(i), za_lika liman khasyiyal'anata minkum, wa anbiru_ khairul lakum, walla_hu gafu_rur rahim(un).

If any of you have not the means wherewith to marry believing women committed (to you) they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their owners and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable they be committed not lustful nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for committed women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.

5 5

Al yauma uhilla lakumut tayyiba_t(u), wa ta'a_mul lazina u_tul kita_ba hillul lakum, wa ta'a_mukum hillul lahum, wal muhsana_tu minal mu'mina_ti wal muhsana_tu minal lazina a_tul kita_ba min qablikum iza_a a_taitumuhunna uju_rahunna muhsinina gaira musa_fihina wa la_ muttakhizi akhda_n(in), wa may yakfur bil ima_ni fa qad habita 'amaluh(u_), wa huwa fil a _khirati minal kha_sirin(a).

This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. Lawful to you are believing women committed (to you) and women committed (to you) among the people of the book revealed before your time when ye give them their due dowers and desiring commitment not lewdness nor secret intrigues. If anyone rejects faith fruitless is his work and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

In this verse the women referred to (believing and from the people of the book) are lawful to you only after you have married them.

24 4

Wal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_ti sum ma lam yatu_ bi arba'ati suhada_ a faj lidu_hum sama_nina jaldataw wa la_ taqbalu_ lahum saha_datan abada_ wa ula_ ika humul fa_siqu_n

And those who launch a charge against a committed woman (any married believing woman or married woman from the people of the book) and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegation) flog them with eighty stripes and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors

24 23

In nal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_til ga_fila_til mumina_ti luinu_ fid dun ya_ wal a_hirah wa lahum aza_bun azim

Those who slander believing committed woman and also indiscreet are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter for them is a grievous Penalty

This is my understanding of the Quraan, please correct me if you have better understanding of the above.

TAJ

Peace Ahmed,

Salam Ahmed,

Salam Sister

But of course! Why wouldn't I?

Hmmm, thanks again sister

Good! You are proving the point I want to make! A proof of marriage/commitment will dismiss any zina charges.

Hold on sister, let?s put it in points to be more clearer

the Muslim police suspect that two persons are living together in an illegal relationship
The Muslim police decides to put the couple under surveillance
The case is been proven that they are having sex together
The Muslim police manages to get search order from a Judge to arrest the couple
The police goes to the unit and force there way through ?they tried to knock on the door first but no one opened, LOL?
the found the couples in there, so they confronted them with the data and evidences they have
the options are as follow
both are legally married to each other (no charges should apply)
both are legally married to other couples (charges of Zina should apply to both)
one is married and the other is not (charges of Zina should apply to both)
both are not married to any one (charges of Zina should apply to both)

so why you are making it hard dear sister?

So after the two would show you the proof, a paper or a ring, what would you do?

If I?m a Muslim police then I will shove the ring up theirs, and only look at the legality of the paper

If all good then (No charges will apply)

Would you still consider them Zani and Zaniah?

According to the table I posted earlier under item 7, only in the cases of 2,3,4 (charges of Zina should apply), with case 1 (no charges should apply)

Would you take them to court and judge them as Zunat and therefore deserving the stripes?

Assuming that I?m a top gun Muslim police office, bloody oath I will take them to court if they fall under the cases or 2,3,4 listed above, for the punishment enforced, it depends on the country but if it was a Muslim country then yes they deserve the stripes in public and some people should witness their pain

You wouldn't!

Why wouldn?t I?, I will be doing my job

Look police officers are not judges, I will leave the matter to the Judge to settle it

You would not have a case.

If I?m a top gun Muslim Police Officer and I ended up taking it to court then believe it will be a very string case against both of them

But you certainly would have a case when the two would already be committed in a marriage with other people.

Of course, but I don?t understand your point still, very confusing indeed, are we on agreement or disagreement in this subject?

Those two would be in serious trouble.

Of course, but again I don?t get your point

No way would they show you any paper or any ring.

Of course, but please sister, I?m confused, what is your point?, all what you say complies with the table listed under item 7 above

And so, what can you call married people engaged in extra marital affair? Certainly not a husband and wife!

I really don?t believe in engagement, most engagements are nothing but pimping, whoring and prostituting, there might be very constructive and respectful engagements but I never seen any so far, therefore I was never engaged, I went straight into marriage, there was no love story in my marriage nor engagement period, bang bang straight away, LOL

But if I?m a Muslim police officer and caught two engaged having sex then (Charges of Zina should apply to both)

Isn't sex the ultimate proof?

Ok, but it is the ultimate proof for having sex, not the ultimate proof of being married. Having sex is no proof of being married under the Islamic Laws, even without any legal documents, the public must at least know that a couple has been married., the case may get complicated by the shifty couples but a good panel of judges will find their decision easy to make,

It is always very hard for criminals to totally hide their crime, and even if the very rare can do it, they won?t escape Allah knowledge, in fact I?m sure it will be much easier to take the 100 stripes by humans, and not be burned in hell instead, but taking the 100 stripes will be more than enough not to come again near the offence that earned it to us

Good! And if they showed you a paper, whether authorized or not (&#1610, would you still call them Zunat?

I don?t believe in (&#1610 marriages anyway because it violates a very important common law, which is the public and families must know that the couples has married

Now if they show me a legal paper that they are married to each other and the paper was proven not fake, I may still take it to court and leave it to the Judge to decide based on the publicity of their marriage after calling a few witnesses

I am glad that this is clear to you, because it is not so to many!

Cool

Where can "La" be used as "Attaf" like the "Wa"? Can you give me an example from the Quran?

Not from the Quran, but I can give an example from an Arabic grammar book that I have

Again, I am glad that this is clear to you, because it is not so to many!

Well, the question of La is not an easy one, and I?m also glad that it is clear to you

Not every couple you see together are prime suspects.

Of course, in fact the sex must be proven

And again, once they prove that they are together, in paper or whatever,, they won't be zunat and no one would have the right to call them so.

Only if they are legally married to each other then you are right

If they are married to others then they are Zunat

If they singles then they are Zunat

If they are engaged then they are Zunat

If one of them is married and the the other is single then they are Zunat

Al Hamdellah sun
That is what I have been trying to tell you all along! Zina is a crime that married people cannot get away with!

Cool, but also Zina will be very hard for singles or engaged to get away from

No, the case then will not be dismissed, Ahmed!

Sister I used your own words that you told me earlier, please read your previous comments

How can the man she was with prove that she is his wife if she was married to another man!!??

Sister my comment was a bit sarcastic that this is what they will do first when they get caught ?this is what you told me sister? and you also me told me that if the man can get away easy by saying that she is his wife hence the case will be dismissed, which I rejected because proving it verbally can?t be admissible, so I just used your own logic you mentioned in a sort of a sarcastic ocmment

And why is that bloody funny to you ???

LOL, because it was what you told me exactly

Of course she has to prove that the act is legitimate, as a defensive move, once she was witnessed by four faithful people or more who can recognize her and she cannot lie to! But can a married woman prove that the act was legitimate? If she can't, then she would be a zaniah.
Cheers now!

Good and if she is a Zania then the man that was with her is also a Zani

Cheers dear sister

"Assuming that I?m a top gun Muslim police office..."
"If I?m a top gun Muslim Police Officer..."

This looks like a "top gun" Taliban police!

Cheers now!

TAJ

Peace Warner,

In my understanding of

A'zzani and A'zzaniah are people who betrayed their commitment to one partner and included another partner in their private affairs. A mushrik and a mushrikah have betrayed their commitment to one God and included another god in their Iman= faith .
Why would Zina and Shirk be included in one Ayah? What is there in common between the two actions?

Interesting observation. I failed to notice the connection earlier.
Do you believe Islam allows polygamy?

Also notice that a mushrik (masculine) can be married to a zaniah (feminine) even if he was not a zani himself! And the same goes for a mushrikah.

Zina is a betrayal of commitment that is basically in the physical level, while shirk is a betrayal of commitment that basically takes place in the mental level. One cannot have two hearts in his body. I take heart as the place of one's faith. The heart has to be preoccupied with love to just One Allah. If one fills (even half of his heart which cannot really be) with faith and trust in other than Allah then that would be shirk. On the same token, one cannot have two bodies! Just one body to give to one spouse. Polygamy cannot be right or true. And Allah has warned men from such practice .

Please give me some time to look into the rest of your posts.

unknownuser

peace sister

This looks like a "top gun" Taliban police!

no.... the taliban police would shoot them on the spot ;D

seriously, what specifically were you referring to (of AB's post)

warner

Peace Taj

I guess you don't believe the Prophet was married few times.

Is this not contradictory to your argument.

TAJ

Peace Warner,

I guess you don't believe the Prophet was married few times.

Is this not contradictory to your argument.

No, it is not contradictory to my understanding.

Some rules for the Prophet are certainly not applicable for the rest of humanity. Muhammad (pbuh) had missions that were designed for him only. His marriages were part of those missions and were special case right from the start, with everything that involved around them. His wives were forbidden to remarry (when widows) as they were mothers of the Mumineen (the Faithful). How can a woman become a mother to totally strange (unrelated to her) men!? A young widow like Aisha to live without a man, denying her instincts, forbidden to practice her natural right when all women around her could!? This is another subject but the whole deal of the Prophet's marriages was not and should not be the standard.

unknownuser

"Assuming that I?m a top gun Muslim police office..."
"If I?m a top gun Muslim Police Officer..."
This looks like a "top gun" Taliban police!

Cheers now!

Peace sister

I can see that you replaced the word Muslim with the word Taliban, therefore there is not doubt that you consider the taliban Muslims

now let me remind you with the following verse that is talking about the likes of taliban

Of the people there are some who say "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.

(

Cheers

warner

Peace Taj

Can you please quote the verse which allows polygamy only for the prophet and not allowed for the others? Thank you.

Quote Taj

Polygamy cannot be right or true. And Allah has warned men from such practice .
4 129

Yusuf Ali Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women even if it is your ardent desire but turn not away (from a woman) altogether so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding and practice self-restraint Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.

Don?t you think the above verse is not strong support to ban polygamy or for you to decide it is not ?right or true?. I thought it is our Lord who decides what is right and true.

Quote Taj

How can a woman become a mother to totally strange (unrelated to her) men!?

Because God commanded so in the Quraan.

warner

Peace Taj

I missed a question in my earlier post.

I have missed or may be I have forgotten the verse which restricts the Prophet from divorcing his wives. Can you please post it here. Thank you.

warner

Quote Taj

How can a woman become a mother to totally strange (unrelated to her) men!?

Because God commanded so in the Quraan.

My earlier answer did not sound right on its own so I thought I will back it up with the Quraan.

When God says Muhammad is not a father to any of the men (3340) and also when God says Abraham is your father (227 we accept it as Gods command.

33 40
Yusuf Ali Muhammad is not the father of any of your men but (he is) the Apostle of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things

22 78
Yusuf Ali And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive (with sincerity and under discipline) He has chosen you and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (Revelation); that the Apostle may be a witness for you and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer give regular Charity and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector the Best to protect and the Best to help!

TAJ

Peace Warner,

Peace Taj

Can you please quote the verse which allows polygamy only for the prophet and not allowed for the others? Thank you.

I have missed or may be I have forgotten the verse which restricts the Prophet from divorcing his wives. Can you please post it here. Thank you.

Restriction on divorce!!?? Never seen such Ayah!

Zaid's ex was a straight command for Muhammad to marry . But I believe that Muhammad was also given the choice to marry and to divorce. He tried to make the best choice that serves his message and because of that he suffered a lot from some of his wives to the point that God was supporting him to take the decision of divorcing those wives by waving the flag of divorce to them and that there are far better women that God was more than willing to provide to Muhammad!

(5

If Muhammad would decide to divorce those wives, God was going to replace them with women who would be "better than you, muslimat, mu'minat, qanitat, te'bat, 3abidat, sae'7at, whether previously married or virgins". Those women that God was willing to provide to Muhammad were everything those wives did not want to be!
That deal was exclusive to Prophet Muhammad!

Quote Taj

Polygamy cannot be right or true. And Allah has warned men from such practice .
4 129

Yusuf AliYe are never able to be fair and just as between women even if it is your ardent desire but turn not away (from a woman) altogether so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding and practice self-restraint Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.

Don?t you think the above verse is not strong support to ban polygamy or for you to decide it is not ?right or true?. I thought it is our Lord who decides what is right and true.

"a friendly understanding and practice self-restraint This is wrong translation!
And you cannot hang in the air unless you are flying!

(129
The following is the nearest translation, to my knowledge
"And you cannot be fair/just among women no matter how hard you try! So don't lean all the way leaving her (the wife) like dangling (from the ceiling/from a rope/from a cliff ((a real horrible place to be))) And if you correct and prevent, that Allah was forgiving and merciful."
The Ayah is speaking in defence of the wife.

How can one correct and prevent if he cannot be just with his women? I see that Allah by saying Correct and prevent, is telling the men to fix their situation with the one wife they've got, and prevent further complication by simply not marrying another wife! It is for men to prevent themselves from being unjust, which they will surely be (by God's own words) if they have more than one wife. How can a man correct when he cannot even be just!? How far and how good can he be in his correcting when he is already preocuupied with another woman!? Does Allah allow injustice? Are women lab rats? Is Allah actually telling the men to go ahead marry more than one and experiment their level of injustice with women!? Is Allah telling the man to lean but just a little, not all the way the other way!!?? Does that make sense to you?
It is correcting the damages in their one and only marriage and preventing from injustice would they fall for temptation of other women.
Allah clearly says that men cannot be just, so is that not ban enough to you, Warner!!??? How can a man correct when there is no chance that he be just? The deal of having more than one wife is granted failure.
Allah is telling the run-away men who would still go and involve themselves with other women inspite of Allah's warning, that they should face their challenges in the marriage and to sit down and fix their marital problems, whatever they could be, and divorce is a choice, instead of going the other way and involve themselves with yet another covenant. Marrying another woman cannot fix what is damaged in the first marriage. The existing of another wife, a whole new world for the man, will only worsen the initial situation and it always does, granted from Allah. But of course those words are for men who have their brains intact, those who believe Allah when Allah tells them that they will not be just. They believe that Allah who created them knows them better than they know themselves and that Allah wants to spare them the crime of injustice.
will not resonate with men who choose to escape from their responsibilities To Correct and To Prevent!

Quote Taj
How can a woman become a mother to totally strange (unrelated to her) men!?
Because God commanded so in the Quraan.

That is my point. The whole deal of Prophet Muhammad marriages was within the command of Allah. And it was a test for all those involved in them.

But why would men even think that it is ok to have more than one wife? I think that they by doing so would be following the example of Prophet Muhammad. They compare themselves with him! "He did it, so why can't we?" !!!
Such men pick parts of the Quran that which match their desires and kick the rest.

brook

Can you please quote the verse which allows polygamy only for the prophet and not allowed for the others?

There is no such verse in the Quran. On the contrarary, in 3352 God forbids the prophet from taking wife upon wife, which in actuality is a clearcut prohibition of polygamy as it is impossible for a man to build a polygamous family without taking wife upon wife

"From now on women are not allowed for you. Neither are you allowed to exchange your present wives with them even if you find them beautiful excepting the ones whom your oath already posseses as your wives."

The words from now on is exactly another way of saying what is past is past like in 422

"And do not marry women whom your fathers have previously married ?although what is past is past this, verily, is a shameful deed, and a hateful thing, and an evil way." (Asad)

As men are not allowed to marry their ex-mothers-in-law from the moment 422 is revealed, the prophet is not allowed any more to take wife upon wife from the moment 3352 is revealed, his past marriages being what is past is past rather than an excuse for Muslims to take wife upon wife.

This must be the way God forbids all muslims indirectly (through their prophet) from taking wife upon wife just as He frobids them from marrying their ex-mothers-in-law.

What is more, there are other verses which address directly all muslims and forbids them from taking wife upon wife, namely 423 and 2432.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

TAJ

Peace Hasan,