Difference between Zina and Fahisha
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Peace warner,
Just wondering if you've done that article on Ma Malakat Aymankum.
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brook
What is more, there are other verses which address directly all muslims and forbids them from taking wife upon wife, namely 423 and 2432.Please explain how 423 forbids all Muslims from taking more than one wife.
Part of an-nisa 23 "(You are forbidden) to have two sisters at one and the same time - but what is past is past."
Please note that Islam allows you to have several sisters each one at a time; so what 423 forbids you from can not be that. What it forbids you from is having two sisters both at one and the same time, which is polygamy.
As for an-nuur 32, in that verse God orders you as a Muslim to marry off the single from among you -ayaama minkum.
Please note again that it is a must for you as a Muslim to marry off the single members of your family ?ayaama minkum- rather than any one who already has a spouse. The moment you marry off a member of your family, he is not single any more. So you act against God?s order if you marry him off a second time, or rather, letting him have wife upon wife, which is polygamy. 2432 forbids you from that.
brook
In 3350 God does not allow the prophet to take wife upon wife after the revelation of 3352; otherwise a discrepancy will appear in the Quran, which simply is out of the question due to 482.You are not clear here, please explain this further
The prophet must have already married the four categories of women cited in 3350 before the revelation of the verse. For, if He were allowing him to marry them in the future too, He would be allowing him to go on having wife upon wife, and in this way contradicting Himself in terms of His forbidding the Prophet from taking wife upon wife in 3352. But that is simply out of the question because God never contradicts Himself
"Will they not, then, try to understand this Quran? Had it issued from any but God, they would surely have found in it many an inner contradiction! (Muhammad Asad)
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
This thread has become so confusing
well, I'm one of the audience now, I'm trying hard not to confuse myself with what i read here
Salam
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Peace Ahmed,
well, I'm one of the audience now
Yes, I have noticed and to be honest I admired that in you
Thank you sister,
This has earned you an applaud,
Cheers
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Peace be upon you brother,
Welcome back
It?s always good to have you in the forum. Better active than an audience.
I had to try and explain to few of the sisters that polygamy is not prohibited in the Quraan and polygamy is not zina. They think otherwise.
I will really appreciate if you could help this discussion by explaining your understanding on the above.
Also I do not believe that you are confused I guess you are laughing at the confusion in this thread right now.
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brook,
Marrying 2 or more sisters at the one and the same time is forbidden not because of polygamy. It?s Sister-gamy which is not allowed. But Non-sister gamy is allowed. Example if you marry 2 or more cousins at the same time which is cousin-gamy which is allowed.
salam
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Peace Brook
The Quraan was reveled in parts over a long period of time. There can be a time gap between 3350 and 3352 in which 3350 allows the Prophet to marry the categories mentioned and 3352 is revealed after a number of years where he is asked to stop marrying any further. The verses although not revealed next to each other could have been compiled this way .
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Peace All
I used 2 unconnected verses to show the Quraan cautions about polygamy.
43 and 4129. My mistake, I apologize. Made me look back, when AB said about confusion in the thread. Although brook was correct in saying 43 is about marriage she was wrong in saying verses 4128- 130 are about divorce. These verses are about marital disputes, corrective action, reconciliation and finally divorce.4128 says ?If you fear ?. to make peace? and the same word ?make peace? is used in 2228, 435 , 416 and other places in the Quraan for correct/reconciliation/amend. The same word is used in 4129 as well.
Also in 4128 is the husband actually ill treating the wife or she is fearing/anticipating ill treatment/cruelty. 43 also says ?If you fear that you will not be able to deal justly the orphans..?
Can someone please shed some light on to this matter?
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Peace Brook
Quote Brook
We understand from 3328, 30, 50, and 51 that the prophet was polygmous; so if he exchaned one of his wives with another woman, he would be taking wife upon wife. 3352 forbids him from doing that.
Taking wife upon wife is taking more while keeping the present wife/wives. Exchanging is divorcing the present wife /wives and taking new wife/wives instead. Taking is one action , exchanging is two actions.
Quote Brook
No. 4129 does not imply that. The proof is that the verse addresses all men, some of who are monogamous. Which wife out of which wives will a monogamous man lean to and hurt since he has only one wife?
4129 ?Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives?..........................?
4129 addresses men with two or more wives and not men with one wife. And it does not admonish them (Please read the whole verse) but it advises them the right conduct. Read through verses dealing in prohibitions and compare the similarities and differences if this is the verse you have against polygamy.
Quote Brook
The women whom the prophet?s oath possessed were actullay married to him in a special way; that is, the prophet and those women had married only before God rather than before the human registrar (236; 3350; 7030). Now the prophet could marry them before the registrar if he wanted to. It was not his marrying them anew but changing their status.
The oath possessed women were not only to do with the Prophet but with other men also. Does the Quraan say anything about the marriage registrar? Or are you saying this is the way of marriage when the registrar was not available.
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Peace Taj
I agree. But some things such as drinking Al Khamr= wine is not muharramah (forbidden) although Allah has warned us, in a gradual basis, not to go near it.
You can not compare drinking and polygamy and definitely can not compare drinking and zina. Drinking is explained separately, marriage separately. . Why do we want to group together 2 completely unrelated acts without an authority from God?
How did ?God warn us in a gradual basis not to go near it??
Please bring all verses against al khamr and all verses against polygamy in the Quraan and prove that polygamy is banned.
The banning is gradual. God is showing that the situation is not balanced and can never be.
How do you figure the banning is gradual?
How is God showing the situation is not balanced and never be?
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Peace Ahmed
In 4129
Quote Taj
tuslihu correct
Tattaquoo preventI always thought tattaquoo is to do with fear /obey as in taqwa ~ fear of Alalh.
Does this word/verse carries the meaning prevent ~ Prevent from practicing polygamy?Peace bro
Absolutely not,
I agree with you on this one
Salam
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Peace, warner.
There can be a time gap between 3350 and 3352 in which 3350 allows the Prophet to marry the categories mentioned and 3352 is revealed after a number of years where he is asked to stop marrying any further. The verses although not revealed next to each other could have been compiled this way.
That is rather unlikely because the women mentioned in 3350 are in too much of panic to wait.
(1)The prophet had married his wives unto whom he had paid their dowers for urgent religious reasons rather than for personal needs like sex. For example he married Zainab (3337) in order to convince his contemporaries that the divorced wife of one's adopted son is not his blood relative. So he probably never slept with her as such marriages were the period's custom as widespread as to be mentioned in the Quran (2236-237; 423; 3349)
(2)The women whom the prophet's oath posssessed were actually God-given war captives who had either to marry right away for their dear freedom or to go on being captives.
(3)The daughters of the prophet's uncles and aunts had migrated with him to Yathrib, which was an alien and insecure place without their families to protect them, so they had to marry the head of the new state right away for their security.
(4)The believing woman who offered herself freely to the prohet was in such panic that she had no time to think of her right to a dower. It is quite clear that she needed state protection rather than a husband; for, a polygamous man like the prophet would never make an ideal husband.
The prophet had married them on the spur of the urgency; so those marriages were all done over with, finished.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Although brook was correct in saying 43 is about marriage she was wrong in saying verses 4128- 130 are about divorce. These verses are about marital disputes, corrective action, reconciliation and finally divorce.
I agree. 4129 is about marital disputes, which may end in reconciliation or divorce. It is not about polygamous men's problems in dealing with their co-wives.
It is about the rights of the women being divorced. So God in 4129 is warning the men who are divorcing their wives to be generous to the women instead of inclining towards themselves.
As for warner's argument that in 4129 God adresses only polygamous men, that is absolutely baseless; without any support from the Quran. On the contrary, when God adresses men, he adresses all men without exception. Want me to give examples?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Part of an-Nisa 23 "(You are forbidden) to have two sisters at one and the same time - but what is past is past." Please note that what 423 forbids you from is having two sisters both at one and the same time, which is polygamy.
However, you claim that
It?s Sister-gamy which is not allowed. But Non-sister gamy is allowed.Sorry, friend, I have to disagree with you.
Sister-gamy, as you put it, is a special form of polygamy, which God forbids in general terms for all Muslims both directly (2432) and indirectly (3352). It is similar to the fact that 443 forbids you from drunkenness particularly during your contact prayers after 590 forbids you generally in all walks of life. Can we claim that drunkenness is allowed outside of contact prayers just because 443 forbids it only during contact prayers?
Example if you marry 2 or more cousins at the same time which is cousin-gamy which is allowed.
No. There is such permission in the Quran. Please remember 2432, in which God orders you as a Muslim to marry off the single from among you.
It is a must, say, for a believing mother to marry off her single son. However, the moment she marries him off with a woman, he is not single any more. So she acts against God?s order if she marries him off a second time, or rather, if she lets him have wife upon wife, which is polygamy. 2432 forbids her from that.
Do you really believe that a believing mother is allowed, in the light of 2432, to marry her son off with his current wife's cousin?
Two more questions
Although men are degraded in case they happen to be the co-spouses of only one person because men have their sense of chastity; are women not not degraded when they happen to be the co-spouses of only one person? Do women in Islam lack a sense of chastiy like pigs?
Have you checked to see if co-wives are not tortured in case they are cousins rather than sisters; have you asked any co-wives?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salam Brook,
That is rather unlikely because the women mentioned in 3350 are in too much of panic to wait.
(1)The prophet had married his wives unto whom he had paid their dowers for urgent religious reasons rather than for personal needs like sex. For example he married Zainab (3337) in order to convince his contemporaries that the divorced wife of one's adopted son is not his blood relative. So he probably never slept with her as such marriages were the period's custom as widespread as to be mentioned in the Quran (2236-237; 423; 3349)
(2)The women whom the prophet's oath posssessed were actually God-given war captives who had either to marry right away for their dear freedom or to go on being captives.
(3)The daughters of the prophet's uncles and aunts had migrated with him to Yathrib, which was an alien and insecure place without their families to protect them, so they had to marry the head of the new state right away for their security.
(4)The believing woman who offered herself freely to the prohet was in such panic that she had no time to think of her right to a dower. It is quite clear that she needed state protection rather than a husband; for, a polygamous man like the prophet would never make an ideal husband.
The prophet had married them on the spur of the urgency; so those marriages were all done over with, finished.
I am impressed by the amount of knowledge you have on the marriages and family life at that time. Your views on the sex life are they based on authentic reports or media and paparazzi information at the time. These fast marriages add a new meaning to quickie weddings. You can get that kind of marriage done in Las Vegas currently. Most celebrities get there instant ?matromonials done there. I can imagine with so many marriages the man would have panicked more than the women. Can understand the reason for the absence of the marriage registrar due to so many marriages within such short notice. It would have been really stressful to get it over with before the info on banning it came. Do you think they had info that the embargo is to come down.
I have not seen any reports saying the prophet migrated with 4 ladies and all of his uncles or aunts had only one daughter each.
I agree. 4129 is about marital disputes, which may end in reconciliation or divorce. It is not about polygamous men's problems in dealing with their co-wives.
It is about the rights of the women being divorced. So God in 4129 is warning the men who are divorcing their wives to be generous to the women instead of inclining towards themselves.
As for warner's argument that in 4129 God adresses only polygamous men, that is absolutely baseless; without any support from the Quran. On the contrary, when God adresses men, he adresses all men without exception. Want me to give examples?
As a favor to all of us here can you please re-translate 4129 to address monogamous men and divorced women. Thank you.