Difference between Zina and Fahisha
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace Sister
If an "unmarried" man and woman were caught during the act, what will they say to defend themselves? They would immediately say that they are husband and wife, even if nobody else knew that.
LOL, well they will need to prove it not just say it
But what would married people say if they were caught with people other than their legal partners? Al Zani and Al Zania are people who have no way out of it
.LOL, what can I say?
Hmmm, thanks for the laugh sister, sorry you need to respond to 243 that is talking about the future marriage of a Zani and Zania, I don't really know how simplified can 243 be?
But this law is strectched in the Islamic world. A married woman will not be able to get out of it if she was caught in the act, but for a married man, he can always say that the woman he was with is just another wife!
well, what can I say
hmmm, good observation
Take care sister
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Salam AhmedBahgat
Salam sister
That's how I always have understood fahisha from the Quran.
Exactly, fahisha is not associated with a specific act, it is only to decribe any act that is filthy/very bad, let's look at the following verse for example
28- And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people Most surely you are guilty of an indecency which none of the nations has ever done before you;
29- What! do you come to the males and commit robbery on the highway, and you commit evil deeds in your assemblies? But nothing was the answer of his people except that they said Bring on us Allah's punishment, if you are one of the truthful.
(2
(29)-> In verse 2928 we read Prophet Lut telling his people that they , "Inakum LaTaatoon Al Fahshaa", which means "They commit very bad deeds", the key word here is , "They Commit"
-> In 2929 we have a break up of these Fahshaa they were committing
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, "LaTaatoon Al Rijal", "you come to the males ", note the same key word
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, "Taatoon Fi Nadikum Al Munkar", "and you commit evil deeds in your assemblies", note the same key word
The above means that "you come to the males ", is Fahisha & "and you commit evil deeds in your assemblies" is also Fahisha
so for those who promote that Fahisha means Zina "or an illegal sexual act", they have a lot of explanation to do
Zina is a type of fahisha and fahisha from fa'hsha2/fawahesh/ is anything to be ashamed of, shamefull, ugly, disgraceful, dishonarable. See verses 733, 6151, 728, 4237, and 5332.
exactly
The fact that there are different degrees of fahisha would make it difficult to consider fahisha (and its plural) to mean only illegal sex in verses 4237 and 5332. Sex is sex, there is no "greater sex" or "hidden sex" or "little sex". And God the All-Mighty knows best. Peace. Myr.
Very good point, thanks
Salam
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Peace Ahmed,
If an "unmarried" man and woman were caught during the act, what will they say to defend themselves? They would immediately say that they are husband and wife, even if nobody else knew that.
LOL, well they will need to prove it not just say it
No they don't need to. And who has the right to spy on people and to ask for proofs!? If the couple would say that they are married people should believe them. And the proof is in the act itself! What further proof would you be looking for? Why do you think you (I mean people) have the right to invade others privacy?
But what would married people say if they were caught with people other than their legal partners? Al Zani and Al Zania are people who have no way out of it.
LOL, what can I say?
Hmmm, thanks for the laugh sister, sorry you need to respond to 243 that is talking about the future marriage of a Zani and Zania, I don't really know how simplified can 243 be?
is clear
This is a grammar question
To you The in , is it Nahiah or Nafiah? And why?
I can see that you take it as a Nahiah, that is why you think it is a command, when it is just a plain fact.But this law is strectched in the Islamic world. A married woman will not be able to get out of it if she was caught in the act, but for a married man, he can always say that the woman he was with is just another wife!
well, what can I say
hmmm, good observation
When the married man is caught up with a single woman he can easily say that she is his wife! By saying that she is his wife the case will immediately be dismissed! But what if she was married? What excuse can they use to get away with it this time!?
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace sister
I?m glad you took my comment with a sporty attitude, thanks
No they don't need to. And who has the right to spy on people and to ask for proofs!?
I don?t know sister regrading the Bedouins laws, but I believe in many other places you need to provide a proof of marriage, sort of an authorised document
Regarding asking for proofs, well if you get caught red handed then you need to prove your innocence, this is common sense
If the couple would say that they are married people should believe them.
Verbally, it may not be admissible depending on what they are caught doing, but it can be admissible in many other normal situations
And the proof is in the act itself!
Donlt know what you mean really, well marriage is not about sex, it is not like any two having sex are automatically married
What further proof would you be looking for?
An authorised document from the marriages recording authority which is automatically given to the married couples when they marry, each one gets a copy
Why do you think you (I mean people) have the right to invade others privacy?
I never thought as such, lol, this is bizarre sister, but I like you
is clear
This is a grammar question
To you The in , is it Nahiah or Nafiah? And why?Of course it is ?La Al Naffiah?, because the words Zani came before it, if it was La Al Nahiah, there will be nothing in front of the verb ?possibly the Fa or the Wa only? and if it is Nahiah then IT WILL BE LAW, but 243 is not a law and never been
Therefore the meaning is Naffy ?Denial? that a Zani/Zania will marry a decent partner
And btw, La has more other uses than ?Naffy? or ?Nahhy?, it can also be used as ?Attaf? like the ?Wa? and can be used instead of ?Laisa?
I can see that you take it as a Nahiah, that is why you think it is a command, when it is just a plain fact.
LOL, what can I say, please read my previous comments, I never said it is a command, I ALWAYS SAID 243 IS A MERE STATEMENT FOR US TO OBSERVE, and also the La in 243 is "the Naffiah" as I explained earlier hence it can?t be a command ?a law?, we need the Nahhiah to be a law, so your guess is wrong
When the married man is caught up with a single woman he can easily say that she is his wife! By saying that she is his wife the case will immediately be dismissed!
LOL, I never saw this in Egypt actually, I think if they get caught doing indecency then they will be charged unless they prove that they are married, regarding spying on them, well I think the police most likely will spy on suspects so what is your point exactly?, also if I?m a husband that is suspecting that my wife cheats on me, bloody oath I will spy on her and possibly hire a PD to give me a daily report, so what is your point again?
But what if she was married? What excuse can they use to get away with it this time!?
Well, if she is married to another, then she will not be able to prove that she is married to the one she got caught with, hence she will be a Zania and must be charged along with her Zani, but hold on a second, why she has to prove anything?, her Zani can say she is his wife and the case will be dismissed, haha, this is bloody funny
Take care sister
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Peace Decepticus
Quote Decepticus
I am wondering how it may be possible to FOUR honest, credible people , good muslims, to witness a forbidden sexual act! And remember spying is forbidden! God says "And do not spy on one another" (49-12)
I paste below a note I wrote on another thread with regard to prohibited sex, 4 witnesses, spying and evidence.
Some believe zina is porn( public sex) and some believe if there are photograph evidence not necessary to have 4 witnesses?
Video camera or photographic evidence is subjective. Superman is in video, that doesn?t make him real. Someone can always say her face was superimposed or the image was digitally edited. Video/finger print/DNA and other evidence can always be good as further evidence but when God says 4 reliable witnesses it has to be 4. The reason I will try to establish below. Also minute trace of evidence went against Clinton and a whole lot of evidence went for OJ. Can anyone guess Adam and Eves DNA. Or DNA of Jesus.
True, if some one publicly commits Fahisha, not just for 4 but maybe for 100 to see, she and her partner automatically qualifies for the punishment. They must be out right stupid, if the 100 stripe law applies, to do it publicly.
But this is not about public lewdness.
The Quraan is talking about the repeat offender. If a man or a woman does a mistake (commit Fahisha/prohibited sex ) then realize quickly and repent and do not repeat it, he/she is forgiven and forgotten. (417 - 1.
It is remote 4 reliable witnesses seeing a woman committing prohibited sex in secrecy. But there is a way a fahisha can qualify with 4 witnesses. It is the situation of some one committing fahisha/prohibited sex regularly. Having an affair and/or doing wrong again and again and therefore not repentant and not stopping. When some one is regularly doing this 4 interested people can plan and become witnesses. We can see regular cheating and affairs come to light often than one time slips.
The Gods law works very efficiently here. Without the punishment coming in to effect the person committing the wrong gets the opportunity in the start to feel guilty, repent and amend. But someone doing it continuously is naturally not repentant. Thus putting her at risk of getting caught with 4 witnesses, since the chances are higher the husband gets suspicious and lays the trap if he is patient.
Also since the punishment is severe the rules are stringent too, giving an opportunity to stop and repent in the start. And effectively takes away slandering of innocent women.
Even I used to be disturbed by this contradiction of spying and 4 witnesses. But I think spying and witnessing are 2 different things.
For example the Quraan tells us to subdue/lower our looks, if that applies to all situations we can not look at any fahisha or an act of zina. We are supposed not to talk of ill of others in that case we can not give evidence against anyone in a court or to the authorities or report a crime. But Quraan stresses the importance of giving evidence.
If we draw this spying and suspicion commands too far and wide we can not have checking at any establishment example air ports. We can not have audits and other checking in businesses. (we can save lot of money by firing the accountants and auditors also no need for data security)
No security measures such as closed circuit cameras in important locations, no police or criminal investigation, we should not even lock our houses or money or valuables, no questioning of suspects in a crime , no finger printing,
And Joseph could not have checked the bags of his brother.
You are not supposed to spy or nose in to other people?s affairs. Seek others information personal or business. But if you find your child you left with a nanny has marks on his body or you have evidence your spouse is cheating on you then you have a right to find out to protect your interest. But if it is for safety and protection of things valuable to you or for the society you can take this kind of measures to safe guard our interest.
Then again , you don?t have to be suspicious and leave all your cash and valuable stuff in your car and also leave your car keys there too. And do not call the police because they might pick up a few people on suspicion.
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Quote Myr
That's how I always have understood fahisha from the Quran. Zina is a type of fahisha and fahisha from fa'hsha2/fawahesh/ is anything to be ashamed of, shamefull, ugly, disgraceful, dishonarable. See verses 733, 6151, 728, 4237, and 5332. The fact that there are different degrees of fahisha would make it difficult to consider fahisha (and its plural) to mean only illegal sex in verses 4237 and 5332. Sex is sex, there is no "greater sex" or "hidden sex" or "little sex". And God the All-Mighty knows best. Peace. Myr.
Peace Sister
I thought you always understood zina to be pornography if you remember your earlier post in this thread. There is no dispute as regard to Fahisha. The Quran describes all shameful prohibited sex acts as Fahisha if I am not mistaken. If there are other sins which are not related to sex but which can be called fahisha can you name them for our learning.
Also don?t be a child. Sure there is no little sex or small sex but there is oral sex (I guess the milder word is foreplay), homosexuality, lesbianism (If you can call it that), orgies, strip shows, phone sex, porn and if they ever invent something called virtual sex.
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Peace Ahmed
Sorry brother, there are others who share this view about you . Someone else said in another thread ?probably AB is exhausted from his trip to Egypt?. Ha
No I do not insult and it wasn?t meant to be. Only politics I am interested in is Islam.
Nice Example with mathematics , but I am not convinced . Mr. Kalifa did it with a prime number and Mr. Bahgat with a Binary number. (I am not good at computers)
I guess we do not have a problem between us with regard to the meaning and use of fahisha in the Quraan.
Quote AB
Yes, but it said sex outside that is Zina and Zina is Fahisha as you know, now why you are trying to understand the message as it is for the married couples only, if it says that you are not allowed sex outside marriage, then this means
- if you are not married then you are not allowed sex
- if you are married then you are not allowed sex with others
you took only the message as number 2, now I ask you why you drop number 1?
I did not drop number 1. I accept the Quraan does not allow prohibited sex whether by married or unmarried people and consider both as great crimes but there is a difference in punishment.
But as far as zina is concerned I believe zina is prohibited sex by married people. That does not mean fahisha/shameful prohibited sex committed by unmarried people is tolerated. If you read my earlier posts, I have shown from the Quraan , both in the same light as far as the gravity of the evil is concerned (1731-33, 2568, 6012, and 6151).
I am not legitimizing sex committed by unmarried people as you said ?boy friend and girl friend?. What I am saying is there are separate rules for married and unmarried people; mainly with regard to punishment.
The Quraan specifies different punishment for married and unmarried people. The following is for unmarried and married we are dealing in 242 -3.
??..Restraint them in their houses?? 415
??. If they repent ..forgive them?..? 416I have quoted the full verse in another post.
(Also I am repeating the earlier question. This punishment in 415 of ?locking up in the houses till death? is for which crime and for whom?)
Naturally the damage done to a family and the society by extra marital sex is massive. One partner is devastated, break up of families, damaging children?s lives, affects the whole family and society.
The Quran distinguishes prohibited sex by married and unmarried people.
You can see the qualifier ?married? in the verse relating to slandering women (244)
Also please notice the qualifier ?after marriage? in 425 in relation to Ma Malakt Aymankum for punishment for fahisha. How did you decide this verse is about lesbians?
The verses 244 and 425 show that shameful sex acts committed by married people are considered differently. Otherwise the Quraan would have dealt same for all men and women without distinguishing whether they are married or not in 244 and 425.
Quote AB
You understood it as a law, but I?m telling you bro, this was never a law in Islam
Which Islamic law did you mean? Is it Sharia Law, which says an adulterer and adulteress or zani and the zania should be stoned to death? The Islamic law I know is in the Quraan and that is what we are discussing here I guess.
Quote AB
..I think you understood 243 message wrong, I believe the message means that a true believer won?t be a Zani or Zania from the first place therefore Allah will never destine them to marry Zani/Zania or Mushrik/Mushrikah..Quote AB
..Fine, but that what you expect from a true believer, now the word ?Horrima? here does not really mean a law enforced by Allah, Fluent Arabic speakers will understand it with ease, but I know it is tricky, the word here means ?It will not happen to the believers?..Quote AB
..Yes but it is NOT A LAW, the word Haram can be used in many different contexts, like laws, or scared, or ?will not happen?, and in here it is a mere statement that this will not happen to a true believer, the whole verse is actually a mere general statement that can accommodate exceptions?Quote AB
?on the other hand this will never happen in the case of a believer because and simply a believer will not be Zani or Zania from the first place?Above posts you tell a believer never, can not and will not ever be a zani or a znia.
Then,
Quote AB
?Of course believers may commit Zina and Allah forgiveness will be wide open, but if they insist of doing it then they will have a serious problem and consequences?You say a believer may commit zina.
Let me clarify my understanding of 242 and 243
I believe what 242 and 243 say is to stripe the people committing zina. Man and the woman 100 stripes and also the verse is an indication to the believers that they should not marry any person guilty of zina .Since zina act would have dissolved the marriage (since the believer can not stay married to the zania wife and vise versa) and also the husband has the right to take away part of the dower and evict the woman from the house.
But the person who committed zina , after the punishment of 100 stripes (If he/she is not dead from the lashes)can get married to another person guilty of zina or an idolater/idolatress.
Now, let me simplify the matter in video. There is a married couple Paul (believer) and Mrs. Paul (Everyone thought the innocent thing is a believer). Mrs. Paul has an extra marital affair and has sex with another married man, say Mr. King (I can?t remember the country) and is proven guilty with 4 witnesses. Now Mr.King is the zani and Mrs.Paul is the zania. Now Mr. King and Mrs.Paul should be given 100 stripes. Paul can not stay in marriage to Mrs. Paul because being married to zania is wrong. Paul has the right to take away part of the dower he has given to Mrs. Paul and evict her from the house. After the punishment Mrs. Paul (By this time you can not call her by this name, we can call her zania) ends up striped, her money taken away, evicted from house, disgraced in society and without a husband. Now if she wants to get married again (possibly after the healing) she has to get married to another punished zani (maybe to Mr. King , if he is ready to leave his kingdom ) but she can not get married to a believer and a believer should not get married to her either. Even if it is not a straight forward command will a believer who knows this verse, marry convicted zania Ex. Mrs. Paul?
What is Paul Macarthy s wives name BTW?
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Peace CMDr
I am writing an article on Ma Malakat Aymanakum which is different from the existing opinions of the subject; I will post it here shortly, if God wills.
Peace, thanks. I look forward to it.
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Quote Myr
That's how I always have understood fahisha from the Quran. Zina is a type of fahisha and fahisha from fa'hsha2/fawahesh/ is anything to be ashamed of, shamefull, ugly, disgraceful, dishonarable. See verses 733, 6151, 728, 4237, and 5332. The fact that there are different degrees of fahisha would make it difficult to consider fahisha (and its plural) to mean only illegal sex in verses 4237 and 5332. Sex is sex, there is no "greater sex" or "hidden sex" or "little sex". And God the All-Mighty knows best. Peace. Myr.
Peace Sister
I thought you always understood zina to be pornography if you remember your earlier post in this thread. There is no dispute as regard to Fahisha. The Quran describes all shameful prohibited sex acts as Fahisha if I am not mistaken. If there are other sins which are not related to sex but which can be called fahisha can you name them for our learning.
Also don?t be a child. Sure there is no little sex or small sex but there is oral sex (I guess the milder word is foreplay), homosexuality, lesbianism (If you can call it that), orgies, strip shows, phone sex, porn and if they ever invent something called virtual sex.
Peace warner,
From where did you get that conclusion on me thinking that zina is pornography????? I would really appreciate that you post your claim otherwise you should be careful when you attribute things to people and they have never said them. This is unquranic brother.
In another thread, this is what I wrote >>>"P.S the last "finding" or what I call "joke" you may read on this forum is it means porno!!!!!<<< If you understand what a joke means you will certainly understand where I stand in regard to this joke theory that zina is porno.As for "don't be a child". Listen Brother, for me there is no games with words, I seriously don't know who is a child here and trying to dissect "sex" to be this or that practice. Quran tells you that from the moment you don't protect your chastity and private parts, you are stepping in the sex territory.
Peace. Myr. -
Peace be upon you respected sister,
This is your earlier post
Quote Myr
P.S the last "finding" or what I call "joke" you may read on this forum is it means porno!!!!! in other words, you can still be fooling around all day long as long as it is not porno!!!-), even the prostitution business is now legal as long as it is not "porno"-)
And this was my answer in color navy
Peace Myr
It is not said in a single verse. But the issues of fahisha and zina are dealt in several verses since different punishment for different groups of people. So you must take all the verses in to consideration when arriving at a meaning otherwise there will be much contradiction.
I am not agreeable with the pornography and public sex theory promoted by some. The verse below says ?open or hidden fahisha?.
6 151
Y. Ali Say "Come I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from" join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents kill not your children on a plea of want; We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not nigh to fahisha whether open or secret; take not life which Allah hath made sacred except by way of justice and law thus doth He command you that ye may learn wisdom.
Pickthall Say Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord hath made a sacred duty for you that ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him and that ye do good to parents, and that ye slay not your children because of penury--We provide for you and for them--and that ye draw not nigh to fahisha whether open or concealed. And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath commanded you, in order that ye may discern.
Transliteration Qul ta'a_lau atlu ma_ harrama rabbukum 'alaikum alla_ tusyriku_ bihi syai'aw wa bil wa_lidaini ihsa_na_(n), wa la_ taqtulu_ aul_dakum min imla_q(in), nahnu narzuqukum wa iyya_hum, wa la_ taqrabul fawa_hisya ma_ zahara minha_ wa ma_ batan(a), wa la_ taqtulun nafsal lati harramalla_hu illa_ bil haqq(i), za_likum wassa_kum bihi la'allakum ta'qilu_n(a).
Quote Myr
P.S the last "finding" or what I call "joke" you may read on this forum is it means porno!!!!! in other words, you can still be fooling around all day long as long as it is not porno!!!-), even the prostitution business is now legal as long as it is not "porno"-)
I am sorry, I did not understand what you asked in this part.
Also
How long can you fool around ?
Can you please see the bold print the question I asked then , since you were not clear.
Even then I thought you were of the notion that sex is porno like some others. Classic case of innocent Misunderstanding. I apologise.About the child part , I didnot mean to offend I thought only children will talk of small sex and little sex when they do not understand sex.
who is a child here and trying to dissect "sex" to be this or that practice
If you read through Quraan is dissecting practices of sex in to this and that. You called me a child too. -
peace
so what is zina?
if it is an illegal sexual act, then i think it could be referring to any kind of sex that leads to bad (only bad acts lead to bad things). So we should know whether something is bad for us or not. For example, having sex with a person you just met, or having sex with a person other than your spouse, having sex with children, etc.as for the issue of married and unmarried. I don't think marriage should be defined by a piece of paper or a ritual.
I think it is the commitment that matters.
A legal contract changes nothing between two people. They're commitment (or the lack of it) stays whether they are considered married or unmarried by law and society.
So i think saying a few meaningless words and going through a ritual is not important. If we have sex, which has consequences, we need to make sure that it is with a person who we are committed to and who is committed to us. -
Thanks warner
all the best
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Salam Ahmed,
Peace Ahmed,
Peace sister
I?m glad you took my comment with a sporty attitude, thanksBut of course! Why wouldn't I?
No they don't need to. And who has the right to spy on people and to ask for proofs!?
I don?t know sister regrading the Bedouins laws, but I believe in many other places you need to provide a proof of marriage, sort of an authorised document
Regarding asking for proofs, well if you get caught red handed then you need to prove your innocence, this is common senseGood! You are proving the point I want to make! A proof of marriage/commitment will dismiss any zina charges.
So after the two would show you the proof, a paper or a ring, what would you do? Would you still consider them Zani and Zaniah? Would you take them to court and judge them as Zunat and therefore deserving the stripes? You wouldn't! You would not have a case. But you certainly would have a case when the two would already be committed in a marriage with other people. Those two would be in serious trouble. No way would they show you any paper or any ring. And so, what can you call married people engaged in extra marital affair? Certainly not a husband and wife!If the couple would say that they are married, people should believe them.
Verbally, it may not be admissible depending on what they are caught doing, but it can be admissible in many other normal situations
Can you please explain?
And the proof is in the act itself!
Donlt know what you mean really, well marriage is not about sex, it is not like any two having sex are automatically married
Isn't sex the ultimate proof?
What further proof would you be looking for?
An authorised document from the marriages recording authority which is automatically given to the married couples when they marry, each one gets a copy
Good! And if they showed you a paper, whether authorized or not (ي, would you still call them Zunat?
Why do you think you (I mean people) have the right to invade others privacy?
I never thought as such, lol, this is bizarre sister, but I like you
Ok )
is clear
This is a grammar question
To you The in , is it Nahiah or Nafiah? And why?Of course it is ?La Al Naffiah?, because the words Zani came before it, if it was La Al Nahiah, there will be nothing in front of the verb ?possibly the Fa or the Wa only? and if it is Nahiah then IT WILL BE LAW, but 243 is not a law and never been.
Therefore the meaning is Naffy ?Denial? that a Zani/Zania will marry a decent partnerI am glad that this is clear to you, because it is not so to many!
And btw, La has more other uses than ?Naffy? or ?Nahhy?, it can also be used as ?Attaf? like the ?Wa? and can be used instead of ?Laisa?
Where can "La" be used as "Attaf" like the "Wa"? Can you give me an example from the Quran?
I can see that you take it as a Nahiah, that is why you think it is a command, when it is just a plain fact.
LOL, what can I say, please read my previous comments, I never said it is a command, I ALWAYS SAID 243 IS A MERE STATEMENT FOR US TO OBSERVE, and also the La in 243 is "the Naffiah" as I explained earlier hence it can?t be a command ?a law?, we need the Nahhiah to be a law.
Again, I am glad that this is clear to you, because it is not so to many!
When the married man is caught up with a single woman he can easily say that she is his wife! By saying that she is his wife the case will immediately be dismissed!
LOL, I never saw this in Egypt actually, I think if they get caught doing indecency then they will be charged unless they prove that they are married, regarding spying on them, well I think the police most likely will spy on suspects so what is your point exactly?, also if I?m a husband that is suspecting that my wife cheats on me, bloody oath I will spy on her and possibly hire a PD to give me a daily report, so what is your point again?
Not every couple you see together are prime suspects. And again, once they prove that they are together, in paper or whatever,, they won't be zunat and no one would have the right to call them so.
But what if she was married? What excuse can they use to get away with it this time!?
Well, if she is married to another, then she will not be able to prove that she is married to the one she got caught with, hence she will be a Zania and must be charged along with her Zani
Al Hamdellah sun
That is what I have been trying to tell you all along! Zina is a crime that married people cannot get away with!but hold on a second, why she has to prove anything?, her Zani can say she is his wife and the case will be dismissed, haha, this is bloody funny
No, the case then will not be dismissed, Ahmed!
How can the man she was with prove that she is his wife if she was married to another man!!?? And why is that bloody funny to you ???
Of course she has to prove that the act is legitimate, as a defensive move, once she was witnessed by four faithful people or more who can recognize her and she cannot lie to! But can a married woman prove that the act was legitimate? If she can't, then she would be a zaniah.Cheers now!
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Salam Ahmed,
Salam Sister
But of course! Why wouldn't I?
Hmmm, thanks again sister
Good! You are proving the point I want to make! A proof of marriage/commitment will dismiss any zina charges.
Hold on sister, let?s put it in points to be more clearer
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the Muslim police suspect that two persons are living together in an illegal relationship
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The Muslim police decides to put the couple under surveillance
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The case is been proven that they are having sex together
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The Muslim police manages to get search order from a Judge to arrest the couple
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The police goes to the unit and force there way through ?they tried to knock on the door first but no one opened, LOL?
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the found the couples in there, so they confronted them with the data and evidences they have
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the options are as follow
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both are legally married to each other (no charges should apply)
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both are legally married to other couples (charges of Zina should apply to both)
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one is married and the other is not (charges of Zina should apply to both)
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both are not married to any one (charges of Zina should apply to both)
so why you are making it hard dear sister?
So after the two would show you the proof, a paper or a ring, what would you do?
If I?m a Muslim police then I will shove the ring up theirs, and only look at the legality of the paper
If all good then (No charges will apply)
Would you still consider them Zani and Zaniah?
According to the table I posted earlier under item 7, only in the cases of 2,3,4 (charges of Zina should apply), with case 1 (no charges should apply)
Would you take them to court and judge them as Zunat and therefore deserving the stripes?
Assuming that I?m a top gun Muslim police office, bloody oath I will take them to court if they fall under the cases or 2,3,4 listed above, for the punishment enforced, it depends on the country but if it was a Muslim country then yes they deserve the stripes in public and some people should witness their pain
You wouldn't!
Why wouldn?t I?, I will be doing my job
Look police officers are not judges, I will leave the matter to the Judge to settle it
You would not have a case.
If I?m a top gun Muslim Police Officer and I ended up taking it to court then believe it will be a very string case against both of them
But you certainly would have a case when the two would already be committed in a marriage with other people.
Of course, but I don?t understand your point still, very confusing indeed, are we on agreement or disagreement in this subject?
Those two would be in serious trouble.
Of course, but again I don?t get your point
No way would they show you any paper or any ring.
Of course, but please sister, I?m confused, what is your point?, all what you say complies with the table listed under item 7 above
And so, what can you call married people engaged in extra marital affair? Certainly not a husband and wife!
I really don?t believe in engagement, most engagements are nothing but pimping, whoring and prostituting, there might be very constructive and respectful engagements but I never seen any so far, therefore I was never engaged, I went straight into marriage, there was no love story in my marriage nor engagement period, bang bang straight away, LOL
But if I?m a Muslim police officer and caught two engaged having sex then (Charges of Zina should apply to both)
Isn't sex the ultimate proof?
Ok, but it is the ultimate proof for having sex, not the ultimate proof of being married. Having sex is no proof of being married under the Islamic Laws, even without any legal documents, the public must at least know that a couple has been married., the case may get complicated by the shifty couples but a good panel of judges will find their decision easy to make,
It is always very hard for criminals to totally hide their crime, and even if the very rare can do it, they won?t escape Allah knowledge, in fact I?m sure it will be much easier to take the 100 stripes by humans, and not be burned in hell instead, but taking the 100 stripes will be more than enough not to come again near the offence that earned it to us
Good! And if they showed you a paper, whether authorized or not (ي, would you still call them Zunat?
I don?t believe in (ي marriages anyway because it violates a very important common law, which is the public and families must know that the couples has married
Now if they show me a legal paper that they are married to each other and the paper was proven not fake, I may still take it to court and leave it to the Judge to decide based on the publicity of their marriage after calling a few witnesses
I am glad that this is clear to you, because it is not so to many!
Cool
Where can "La" be used as "Attaf" like the "Wa"? Can you give me an example from the Quran?
Not from the Quran, but I can give an example from an Arabic grammar book that I have
Again, I am glad that this is clear to you, because it is not so to many!
Well, the question of La is not an easy one, and I?m also glad that it is clear to you
Not every couple you see together are prime suspects.
Of course, in fact the sex must be proven
And again, once they prove that they are together, in paper or whatever,, they won't be zunat and no one would have the right to call them so.
Only if they are legally married to each other then you are right
If they are married to others then they are Zunat
If they singles then they are Zunat
If they are engaged then they are Zunat
If one of them is married and the the other is single then they are Zunat
Al Hamdellah sun
That is what I have been trying to tell you all along! Zina is a crime that married people cannot get away with!Cool, but also Zina will be very hard for singles or engaged to get away from
No, the case then will not be dismissed, Ahmed!
Sister I used your own words that you told me earlier, please read your previous comments
How can the man she was with prove that she is his wife if she was married to another man!!??
Sister my comment was a bit sarcastic that this is what they will do first when they get caught ?this is what you told me sister? and you also me told me that if the man can get away easy by saying that she is his wife hence the case will be dismissed, which I rejected because proving it verbally can?t be admissible, so I just used your own logic you mentioned in a sort of a sarcastic ocmment
And why is that bloody funny to you ???
LOL, because it was what you told me exactly
Of course she has to prove that the act is legitimate, as a defensive move, once she was witnessed by four faithful people or more who can recognize her and she cannot lie to! But can a married woman prove that the act was legitimate? If she can't, then she would be a zaniah.
Cheers now!Good and if she is a Zania then the man that was with her is also a Zani
Cheers dear sister
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Peace All
Peace Phoenix
When we do a business transaction or a business agreement which has value or executing a partnership contract/agreement we will always have a written document with witnesses and also the Quraan instructs this . For Example in a partnership contract two people invest money, time and other resources to build a business. Even if the two are family or closest of friends the right thing will be to have an agreement for following reasons.
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There a can be problems arising later between partners leading to litigation
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When the partnership is to be dissolved then the a contract or agreement can become very important to prove that a partnership exists and on which basis
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Required by the Inland Revenue Services
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If one partner dies an agreement is important to make sure that partner?s family and children get the right share
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It is important for other stake holders like future partners, banks, even suppliers etc
An agreement sets the ownership, responsibilities, limitations, rules and guidelines of each partner. Leading to less misunderstandings down the line.
Even with all this agreements people cheat or do wrong, same can be applied to marriage too. But the agreement limits the damage, God willing.
When a man marries a woman there is a bond between them; a physical and mental. Also there is a financial bond as well. The man pays a dower and a woman agrees to commit and be his wife and bear children among other things. The man has to provide for her. The spouse has the right for part of the inheritance. If divorced maintenance has to be provided by man and when he dies he should leave her at least accommodation and expenses for a year. If they have children the responsibility becomes stretched.
True, even with a piece of paper called a contract people can cheat. But like in a partnership or any other contract it restrains the parties. Since a dispute is an issue to the state and solved at courts, you will have no choice but to follow certain rules of the society and the state. A marriage registration provides for this in today?s circumstances.
For example,If divorce happens to sort legal issues between them for custody of children for matters regard to alimony and maintenance.
Complications form husband and wife sharing each others assets such as house, money, vehicles and businesses .
For IRS and other state requirements
For insurance for inheritance distribution for wills and testamentary
If you think of all practical aspects proper documented marriages are important in so many ways to the man woman the children and the society.
A document or a piece of paper is not a guarantee of commitment and the document is not for that purpose. Matters of heart can not be put in a document. It is with that person and our Lord who knows what?s in the heart of every man and woman.
Quote Phoenix
So we should know whether something is bad for us or not. For example, having sex with a person you just met, or having sex with a person other than your spouse, having sex with children, etc.
We all know what is good for us and bad for us. But if man has that kind of self control over him this would be a wonderful world. Most people know drugs are bad but still I hear there is quite demand for the stuff. And a steady supply. This goes for crime or smoking or drunk driving. People have to be controlled to a certain extent by rules and guidelines. Imagine roads without the speed limits.
Quote Phoenix
?So i think saying a few meaningless words and going through a ritual is not important. If we have sex, which has consequences, we need to make sure that it is with a person who we are committed to and who is committed to us.?
It depends whether it is meaningless or meaningful for each individual.
Quraan has no rituals for marriage.You like the girl and she likes you, assuming she is not in any prohibited categories, agree on a dower or fix it later just go ahead with the marriage. Since this is a transaction of value, have witnesses. Also because Islam expects you to do things openly .Since dower does not have to be paid full money up front, write a document and let two people witness this. Since marriage is a gift from Allah and a happy, beautiful thing praise your Lord. Have a meal. Invite some friends and family. (Don?t forget the honeymoon)
(Please correct me if I have said anything contrary to the Quran by trying to maintain the casual approach)
Quote Phoenix
?we need to make sure that it is with a person who we are committed to and who is committed to us.?
Committed by which way? You can make sure you are committed but how do you make sure whether she is committed. Maybe she is in it for the money or maybe for some other motive.
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Peace Warner,
Peace Taj
Are you indirectly agreeing with the view that zani and zania
has to be married to others ?In my understanding of
A'zzani and A'zzaniah are people who betrayed their commitment to one partner and included another partner in their private affairs. A mushrik and a mushrikah have betrayed their commitment to one God and included another god in their Iman= faith .
Why would Zina and Shirk be included in one Ayah? What is there in common between the two actions?