The scorching full-moon (shahr ramadan) is here
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Peace all,
-- In verse 2184 "ayam ma'3doudattin" literally means days "counted". I don't see the "few" like "qalil" we see it applied to numbers in other verses and an example of that is the way the prophet dream was described in terms of the enemy numbers. "ma3doudattin" is from 3adad, so count. It can be 20, 30, 50 as long as it is "counting" (keeping track of the count), I dont' see any sense of "few" but rather of "fixed/defined/known/counted number", so the count can be 30 days if the "shahr" means month and I believe it is.
Sister Myr can tell this to the people who authored Classical Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan Al-3arab. They clearly say that "ma3doodat" means "can be counted on the fingers" and I am sure that the authors of Classical Arabic dictionaries didn't conspire with me. More importantly, had she looked at all the passages in the great reading where the term "ma3doodat" occurs, she would have seen that it means a few in 2203, 324, 280, 118, 1220. Notice especially 1220 which leaves absolutely no doubt that "ma3doodat" means few because we are told that they bought Joseph for a very small price. So if the meaning is given by Classical Arabic dictionaries and is confirmed by the great reading, then why doubt it? The only thing that I see is in the way are preconceptions.
--In verse 2185, it is stated the month of ramadhan "alathi unzila FIHI al-Qur'an" literally in which was descended the Quran. An analysis of the verb "un'zila" (descended) through the 95 verses that burhan engine displays, clearly shows that it is about the event and not time and thus my understanding of the verse 2185 is that the begining of the Quran revelation or the start to reveal the Quran occured in the month of Ramadhan. "fihi" is really obvious here, and that particular day the revelation started is the one mentioned in verse 971 because a day belongs to a month. So I don't see any contradiction in saying that the Quran started to be descended to the prophet one day in the month of ramadhan.
The same exact words "fi" and "anzal" (descended) are used in 971 as in 2185 so both are talking about the same event. If it is the same event then it is the same time. So if 30 days is what is meant by "shahr" then it is really 1 out of the 30 days when the event occurred and accordingly it is just this 1 day that is special not the 30 days.
The term "qadr" is not meaningless it means "measure". It is used in 3639 in relation to the moon
- And the moon We have measured ("qadarnahu" it to appear in stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.
The night of "al-qadr"/the measure refers to the night of the full moon where the transformation of the moon starts and is measured ("qadarnahu" through stages ("manazila" until it returns into a crescent like an old curved sheath. Hence, the night of the measure is the night of the abstinence (i.e., the night before the abstinence when the scorching full-moon is observed).
Shahr as full moon would not resolve any contradictions since these latter do not even exist unless one choses a particular translation like "ma3doudattin" for "few" beside what Ahmed clearly described as examples that would not make sense if shahr is replaced by "full moon".
Our mate Ahmed utters a lot of nonsence that no logical person pays attention to. For example, like when he said that "bi" always refers to a place. Surely, anyone who does a search for the letter "bi" in the great reading will see that like the English "in", it can refer to a place (in the house) or to something that is not a place (in trouble). Anyone who just openned the first page of the great reading would have seen "Bism Allah..." (In the name of The God...). But According to "native Arabic speaker" Ahmed "Bi" always refers to a place. I hope everyone can see why silly conjectures such as these are not even worth responding to or debating about. By the same token, I haven't seen a single place, apart from his imagination, where "full-moon" doesn't fit for "shahr".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace sister Marie,
Excellent posts brother Ayman
It is great to see you on the forum. Thank you for your kindness and for your help in reaching this understanding. We would have never made the connection to the night of measure and a great deal of other knowledge without your valuable help.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Good Ayman don't respond to my non sense, this is what I want to achieve really, that you don't disturb me while exposing your non sense
Thanks for your cooperation, but I still have a lot to reply too in your fantasy world of guidance, sorry I'm at work now when I finsih I will get the ball rolling again
cheers
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Firstly this whole issue of fasting during the hottest month,or summer does not entirely make sense at all.I live in a tropical country and it is equally hot all year round,so what do i do?just anyhow choose one month i like and fast???Why can't we fast during the month of ramadan as we know it?I do not see the problem with that.Peace.
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How about this mate
For those who take an oath for abstention from their wives, a waiting for four months is ordained; if then they return, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
(226)
-> Now we have a serious conflict, because the 4 months may be rendered to 3 months, because if we take the oath of abstaining from our wives just after the full moon, then we need to wait 4 months, but if it happens one day before the full moon then the 4 months become 3 months, do you get it bro?, this is a serious conflict indeed, but it won?t be a conflict if month means shahr, a time period of about 30 days, i.e. it does not matter when we abstain from the wives as at any time we need to wait about 120 days
Again, all that this proves is that our "mate" Ahmed only reads through his narrow preconceptions.
Hello my mate
I?m listening
Had he bothered to read a couple of lines down to 2228 then he would have seen that 2226 actually confirms the meaning of full-moon.
2228 tells the divorced women to wait three menstruations. Counting menstruations is variable depending on when we start the count, exactly like counting full-moons. So 2226-228 actually confirms the meaning of full-moon.
Well, you are professional bro in getting yourself cornered, but hey 3 knock downs is a knock out, and truly from the silly arguments you present you are indeed a knockout, let?s bring the 3 verses in here
226- For those who take an oath for abstention from their wives, a waiting for four months is ordained; if then they return, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
227- But if their intention is firm for divorce, Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
228- Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that case, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
(226)
(227)
(22What can I say, ok, this is the best to say, Thank you Allah that your words clearly expose Ayman ignorance/deception translating Your Words, I ask you please to help those naive ones who will believe him.
Brother Ayman clearly compares apples with mangos, he consistently and arrogantly pick and chose words from unrelated verses to make them as if they are talking abut the same subject, here is a perfect example of his Quran interpretation tricks
-> 2226, that I explained before, the verse is clearly talking about Men who decided to abstain from their wives when their wives are held in contempt ?insisting on doing wrong things?, so the husband as a way of disciplining his wife, can take an oath to not to touch her for a period, this period was specified by Allah as 4 months during those 4 months if the wife fixed her flaws then the husband can any time reverse his oath and start having a normal life with his wife again, so the wife has 4 months to fix her flaws, at the end of the 4 months if she doesn?t, then the husband can divorce her, we can clearly see that Allah directed this message to those men who DID NOT divorce their wives RATHER to those men who took the oath to abstain from from them ?For those who take an oath for abstention from their wives, a waiting for four months is ordained?, then if the wives repented and realized their mistakes ? ; if then they return, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.?, i.e. the husbands should forgive them and continue to live with them normally, what then if the wife does not repent at the end of those 4 months and insisted on doing the wrong?, well this is the next step for the man to do which is to divorce her ?not to abstain from her?, and that is what 2227 is telling us
-> 2227, ? ?, But if their intention is firm for divorce,?, i.e. if the husbands could not take their wives flaws anymore at the end if the 4 months (about 120 days) then they divorce them and Allah is Hearing and Knowing what is going on from both parties ?Allah heareth and knoweth all things., now we have a case of clear cut divorced women in hand not a husband abstaining from a wife as mentioned earlier in 2226. Verse 2228 will tell us how long the divorced women should wait for before they marry again
-> 2228, now Allah will tell us what the divorced women ?who were abstained from by their husbands in 2226, then after 4 months their husbands divorced them as stated in 2227 due to the insistence of their wives on doing the wrong? should wait for. Those divorced women should wait 3 ?women periods?, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MOON NOR THE MONTH RATHER THE WOMEN PERIOD, i.e. a count of the first 3 that will come after divorce regardless how long that will take. Man what can I say, Now, this is what the divorced women should wait, in 2226 it was about the men and what they should wait while abstain from their wives before they divorce them, see how Ayman ?not cleverly? compared apple with mangos, bear in mind too that the women period may or may not be 30 days, so 3 periods may fluctuate somewhere between 50 if the period comes every 25 days and the first one came the following day after divorce, to possibly 95 days ?, ladies in here can help us with the facts, and sure 95 days is way too far from 120 days. Let?s walk through 2228, ? Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods.?, the word ?monthly? does not exist in the Arabic verse, ? ?, ?three periods?, can you see the words ? concerning themselves??, i.e. the women who are waiting here and not any woman rather any divorced woman, the verb used is clearly feminine ?Ytrabbasna?, can you see the ?Nun? at the end?, this is ?Nun El Niswah?, i.e. the action of ?waiting? relates to the women, the same word was used in 226, ?Tarabas? which is masculine because the action of waiting was referring to the men, see how Ayman compared apples with mangos. I guess he used the apples to prove that apples are mangos.
Now let?s recap how Ayman compared apples with mangos, well, I?m sick of that let?s try something else, let?s see how Ayman compared potatos with bananas
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2226 is talking about something else than what 2228 is talking about, Ayman says that they talk about the same way of calculating the waiting period
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2226 is talking about the Men and what they should wait if they take an oath to abstain from their wives due to serious of violations committed by the wives, if the wives stop their violations ? ? during this period then their husbands should reverse their oath, the period mentioned is 4 MONTHS about 120 days
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2227 is talking about the husbands if they decide to divorce their rebelling wives, i.e. we have a case of divorced women in hand
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In the case of divorced women 2228 is telling us what those divorced women should wait, the period is 3 PERIODS before they can marry again
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The message for men in 2226 was clear from the masculine verb ?Tarabas?, ?to wait?
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The message for divorced women in 2228 was clear from the feminine verb ?Ytrabbasna?, ?to wait?
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4 Months mentioned in 2226 can?t be 3 Periods in 2228, nor the way to calculate them because a month is spanned over 30 days while the woman period is an incident that happens at a specific day and may flucuate in between
HOW COME THEY CAN BE USED TO PROVE THAT MONTH = FULL MOON?
I guess it is clear as light that the accusations he accused me of are actually fitting him as a glove, I don?t even need to stretch it, it is ironic that many believe his non sense, I guess he is clever but I?m really worried brothers and sisters that we have another case of R K in hand, what is ironic that he is a native Arabic speaker and instead of using this blessings Allah gave it to him to help non Arabic speakers, he is using it to deceive others and what is revolting that even with his Tom and Jerry laughable arguments, many here believe him, I honestly seek refuge by Allah and I?m truly wasting my time with his ignorance and arrogance, but I?m not doing it to expose him, I care less to do that, I?m only doing it to help those who can easily be deceived. Allah is enough of a witness between me and him, so at the end if the day I won?t consider it a waste of time.
One has to understand that The God's message is universal. It is not dependent on a particular manmade culture. For example, four months would be different in Saudi Arabia than in Australia because different calendars are used. Some ancient cultures even had months consisting of 20 days.
Here we go, desperation, non sense, illogical, irrelevant, useless, rubbish, and sure makes me want to puke and laugh at the same time
In both 2226 and 2228, The God gives us natural phenomena, not manmade divisions, to time the waiting periods. In 2226 it is the full-moon and in 2228 it is menstrual cycles. The way we count those two natural phenomena is the same and there is going to be similar variability based on when we start the counting. This is completely natural and consistent with the universal message of the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
Oh yeh comparing potatoes with hmmmmm??.. oh yeh cucumbers
Salam Ayman and may Allah help you and help those who listen to you
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Salam folks,
What I have read uptill now from these post it looks Ayman will translate the english word 'which' something like this;
WHICH - break the word into 2 ie. 'WE' 'ICH' now the word 'which' means 'we itch' bravo
AYMAN
Only in the eyes of those who can't let go of their illogical emotional attachment to Mecca's pagan shrines and rituals.This concludes those praying in churches, synagogues, mosques are wasting their time? Humans are not one nation why is so hard to understand.
Now how do you know what you are saying is absolute right and others are illogical. Iam not an arab but I feel hate coming out of posts. Elsewise you be sharing/understanding views instead being...
Peace
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Salam Ayman, all,
Peace all,
-- In verse 2184 "ayam ma'3doudattin" literally means days "counted". I don't see the "few" like "qalil" we see it applied to numbers in other verses and an example of that is the way the prophet dream was described in terms of the enemy numbers. "ma3doudattin" is from 3adad, so count. It can be 20, 30, 50 as long as it is "counting" (keeping track of the count), I dont' see any sense of "few" but rather of "fixed/defined/known/counted number", so the count can be 30 days if the "shahr" means month and I believe it is.
Sister Myr can tell this to the people who authored Classical Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan Al-3arab. They clearly say that "ma3doodat" means "can be counted on the fingers" and I am sure that the authors of Classical Arabic dictionaries didn't conspire with me. More importantly, had she looked at all the passages in the great reading where the term "ma3doodat" occurs, she would have seen that it means a few in 2203, 324, 280, 118, 1220. Notice especially 1220 which leaves absolutely no doubt that "ma3doodat" means few because we are told that they bought Joseph for a very small price. So if the meaning is given by Classical Arabic dictionaries and is confirmed by the great reading, then why doubt it? The only thing that I see is in the way are preconceptions.
He he he!!-) you can continue mocking Brother. Peace. Myr.
1220
Transliteration Washarawhu bithamanin bakhsin darahima maAAdoodatin wakanoo feehi mina alzzahideena
Literal And they bought him with a reduced/unjust price, counted/numbered silver coins , and they were in him from the indifferent/uninterested .
Pickthal And they sold him for a low price, a number of silver coins; and they attached no value to him.
Arberry Then they sold him for a paltry price, a handful of counted dirhams; for they set small store by him.
Qaribullah Then, they sold him for a trifling price, a number of dirhams, because they considered him to be of little value.
JM Rodwell And they sold him for a paltry price-for some dirhems counted down, and at no high rate did they value him. -
Salam folks,
What I have read uptill now from these post it looks Ayman will translate the english word 'which' something like this;
WHICH - break the word into 2 ie. 'WE' 'ICH' now the word 'which' means 'we itch' bravo
He he he!!!!-) thank you dear. Peace. Myr.
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The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever witness the month, let him fast it, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful.
(185)
-> What Ayman missed is in this sentence , which means ? And whosoever witness the month, let him fast IT?, is the last letter , the letter ?Ha? at the end in the above sentence, this ?Ha letter is called DAMIR and refers to the word ?Shahr? and is translated as ?IT?, now let?s consider Ayman flawed translation and we will see clearly that it makes no sense to a child
Ayman says Shahr = Full Moon
Let?s replace the Damir ?Ha? with what suppose to be referring to what Ayman is conjecturing regarding the meaning of the word ?Shahr?
-> , which means ? And whosoever witness the FULL MOON, let him fast IT?, ?IT? is referring to the Full Moon according to Ayman flawed translation, this should render the above translation to ? And whosoever witness the FULL MOON, let him fast THE FULL MOON?, now it is getting funny indeed
-> Here you have it everyone, how the hell we should fast the FULL MOON?, don?t you agree that it should be as follow , which means ? And whosoever witness the FULL MOON, let him fast?, The ?Ha?, ?IT? MUST BE REMOVED because again, how the hell we should fast the full moon?
Thank you public
Very good Brother. I agree with you on this above simple analysis. That's how I have always understood it. Strait forward and no ambiguity. Peace.Myr.
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Salaam all,
Checking out Lane's Lexicon, I found that Shiin-Ha-Ra mainly means something conspicuous or publicly known, or something along that line. The entry of "month" is also there, but I couldn't understand how "month" is conspicuos or publicly known. So perhaps the meaning of "month" to the word "shahr" was introduced later? I'm no Arabic expert so this is just a conjecture. Other meanings include something bulky. The entry of "new moon" is also there, but again I don't know how "new moon" can be considered a conspicuous thing or bulky. Any help?
And I found little reason to determine that 1 month = 30 days (or 29 or 2. Because the definition of "1 month = 30 days" is human made as far as I know. I can extend this to include "1 year = 52 weeks", "1 week = 7 days" (also the reason of the Friday prayer so to speak), etc. There's nothing wrong with saying "1 week = 20 days" if it works for a society. Thus the count of "shahr" with The God is 12 does not, as I currently understand it, refer to "month (of 30 or so days)" but something else, which does not depend on human made time frame.
By relating to the main meaning of "shahr" found on Lane, I found "full moon" to be a lot more reasonable, simply because we can't really control how the moon travels its orbit. Thus, the system which uses "full moon" as a time marker, really depends on something created by The God, and it's universal.
Well, as of now, I agree that "shahr" means "full moon". I'm still learning about "completing the count" though. Is the root of "'iddat" 'Ayn-Dal-Dal?
=adley=
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Very good Brother. I agree with you on this above simple analysis. That's how I have always understood it. Strait forward and no ambiguity. Peace.Myr.
Peace Dear Sister
This is how it should be sister, as simple as it can be, because Allah simplifies things on us, look at the clear cut flaw of those non sense advocates regarding the word Shahr, look the data they needed in 3 different earth locations to confirm their fantasy world of self fasting , did the people 1400 years ago have access to any technology to figure out the tables posted by them?, of course not, now you see some still insisting on this non sense while admitting their lack of the language, I actually wonder, what is the purpose of saying this is that, while I lack the knowledge of this and that?, they say they refer to some dictionaries online or so and yet there is no way for them to verify that what they read there is right, but even with the assumption that everything is read there is right they still insist on the wrong
For example the dictionary said the word shahr = month or full moon and yet they chose the meaning that does not make any sense, you wonder why they do that?, don't they have the same brain like us?, well of course they do, but the fact they totally ignore that Satan effect is not the same on all of us. Now let?s keep exposing their non sense because playing with Allah words is playing with fire as you know, we are trying to help them indeed
Let's look at the following verse
And if any has not (the wherewithal), he should fast for two months consecutively before they touch each other. But if any is unable to do so, he should feed sixty indigent ones, this, that ye may show your faith in Allah and His Messenger. Those are limits (set by) Allah. For those who reject (Him), there is a grievous Penalty.
(4)
-> The verse above is talking about what men should do after divorcing their wives ?Divorce by Zihar? and wanting to retreat the oath of Zihar divorce, the Zihar divorce was a habit of the past and does not happen now days, it is simply by saying to the wife that "she is like his mother", so Allah is telling the men what to do to retreat that Zihar Oath before he can touch his wife again, in the previous verse they should first free a slave and if they can?t do that then they can ? And if any has not (the wherewithal), he should fast for two months consecutively before they touch each other?, under our friends flawed interpretation that Shahr means full moon, then what the men should do is as follow ? And if any has not (the wherewithal), he should fast for two full moons consecutively before they touch each other?
This clearly will make the period of fasting from one full moon to the consecutive full moon about 30 days, however the verse continues and tells us the third option this men have on offer if they can?t do the fasting of 30 days (assuming that 2 consecutive months means 2 consecutive full moons = 30 days), the third option is stated as ? But if any is unable to do so, he should feed sixty indigent ones?
Now would that be a coincidence and Allah just selected the number 60 randomly?, or 2 months (60 days) of inability to fast is equivalent to feeding 60 needy?, please don?t overlook the fact that the inability to FAST should be compensated by FEEDING others and 60 days of inability to fast should be compensated by feeding 60 needy one per day
Peace be with you sister
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Very good Brother. I agree with you on this above simple analysis. That's how I have always understood it. Strait forward and no ambiguity. Peace.Myr.
Peace Dear Sister
This is how it should be sister, as simple as it can be, because Allah simplifies things on us, look at the clear cut flaw of those non sense advocates regarding the word Shahr, look the data they needed in 3 different earth locations to confirm their fantasy world of self fasting , did the people 1400 years ago have access to any technology to figure out the tables posted by them?, of course not, now you see some still insisting on this non sense while admitting their lack of the language, I actually wonder, what is the purpose of saying this is that, while I lack the knowledge of this and that?, they say they refer to some dictionaries online or so and yet there is no way for them to verify that what they read there is right, but even with the assumption that everything is read there is right they still insist on the wrong
For example the dictionary said the word shahr = month or full moon and yet they chose the meaning that does not make any sense, you wonder why they do that?, don't they have the same brain like us?, well of course they do, but the fact they totally ignore that Satan effect is not the same on all of us. Now let?s keep exposing their non sense because playing with Allah words is playing with fire as you know, we are trying to help them indeed
Let's look at the following verse
And if any has not (the wherewithal), he should fast for two months consecutively before they touch each other. But if any is unable to do so, he should feed sixty indigent ones, this, that ye may show your faith in Allah and His Messenger. Those are limits (set by) Allah. For those who reject (Him), there is a grievous Penalty.
-> The verse above is talking about what men should do after divorcing their wives ?Divorce by Zihar? and wanting to retreat the oath of Zihar divorce, the Zihar divorce was a habit of the past and does not happen now days, it is simply by saying to the wife that "she is like his mother", so Allah is telling the men what to do to retreat that Zihar Oath before he can touch his wife again, in the previous verse they should first free a slave and if they can?t do that then they can ? And if any has not (the wherewithal), he should fast for two months consecutively before they touch each other?, under our friends flawed interpretation that Shahr means full moon, then what the men should do is as follow ? And if any has not (the wherewithal), he should fast for two full moons consecutively before they touch each other?
This clearly will make the period of fasting from one full moon to the consecutive full moon about 30 days, however the verse continues and tells us the third option this men have on offer if they can?t do the fasting of 30 days (assuming that 2 consecutive months means 2 consecutive full moons = 30 days), the third option is stated as ? But if any is unable to do so, he should feed sixty indigent ones?
Now would that be a coincidence and Allah just selected the number 60 randomly?, or 2 months (60 days) of inability to fast is equivalent to feeding 60 needy?, please don?t overlook the fact that the inability to FAST should be compensated by FEEDING others and 60 days of inability to fast should be compensated by feeding 60 needy one per day
Peace be with you sister
Your 2 months = 60 days exchange rate has already been demonstrated to be false. Anwar believes this formula also and here is a debate in relation to this and 'zihar'.
http//www.free-minds.org80/forum/index.php?topic=6140.msg94486#msg94486
The theory is instantly dismissed in another way when one sees...
589 GOD does not hold you responsible for the mere utterance of oaths; He holds you responsible for your actual intentions. If you violate an oath, you shall atone by feeding ten poor people from the same food you offer to your own family, or clothing them, or by freeing a slave. If you cannot afford this, then you shall fast three days. This is the atonement for violating the oaths that you swore to keep. You shall fulfill your oaths. GOD thus explains His revelations to you, that you may be appreciative.
Same offense = Feed TEN people = Free ONE slave = Fast THREE days
So by your example 60 people = 18 Days from this formula. So please do not confuse contexts or try to "pull an Anwar" with his discredited exchange rate theory to try and determine the length of a month or the meaning of 'shahr'.
Your tendency to pull out these tricks is very "mashur" - and you can look up the root of that word to understand what 'shahr' means.
Regards.
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Peace all,
It is like you are trying to resolve an issue by using both an equation of first degree and another equation of second degree if you see my point!
Is there another verse that would link directly a number of months (not days) to fast to a number of poor to feed? Please let me know if I missed a verse.Only those who are ignorant in simple algebra (let alone 1st and 2nd degree equations) don't know that 3 days is exactly the same thing as 1/10th of a month in their conjectural 30-day month.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Adley, all,
Checking out Lane's Lexicon, I found that Shiin-Ha-Ra mainly means something conspicuous or publicly known, or something along that line. The entry of "month" is also there, but I couldn't understand how "month" is conspicuos or publicly known. So perhaps the meaning of "month" to the word "shahr" was introduced later? I'm no Arabic expert so this is just a conjecture. Other meanings include something bulky. The entry of "new moon" is also there, but again I don't know how "new moon" can be considered a conspicuous thing or bulky. Any help?
And I found little reason to determine that 1 month = 30 days (or 29 or 2. Because the definition of "1 month = 30 days" is human made as far as I know. I can extend this to include "1 year = 52 weeks", "1 week = 7 days" (also the reason of the Friday prayer so to speak), etc. There's nothing wrong with saying "1 week = 20 days" if it works for a society. Thus the count of "shahr" with The God is 12 does not, as I currently understand it, refer to "month (of 30 or so days)" but something else, which does not depend on human made time frame.
I completly agree. We know from inscriptions that the pre-quranic Arabs used the word "warkh" for "month" (this is where the term "tarikh/tawarikh" (date/calendar) derives from). If you check the Classical Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan Al-3arab, you will see that "full-moon" is given as one of the meanings. You will also see that a "30 day period" as Myr and Ahmed conjecture is not given as a meaning by Classical Arabic dictionaries. This is an illogical meaning that they invented.
By relating to the main meaning of "shahr" found on Lane, I found "full moon" to be a lot more reasonable, simply because we can't really control how the moon travels its orbit. Thus, the system which uses "full moon" as a time marker, really depends on something created by The God, and it's universal.
Well, as of now, I agree that "shahr" means "full moon". I'm still learning about "completing the count" though. Is the root of "'iddat" 'Ayn-Dal-Dal?
The meaning of "ma3doodat" according to Classical Arabic dictionaries is a number that can be counted on the fingers (i.e., less than or equal to 10). As I posted earlier, the occurrences of "ma3ddodat" such as 1220 confirm this meaning. Now notice the use of the expression "a complete 10" in 2196. This is clear confirmation from the great reading that completion of the count of "ma3doodat" (a count less than or equal to 10) is a complete 10. Moreover, using the expression "completing the count" would be illogical if "ma3doodat" meant "unlimited counted number" as Myr and Ahmed conjecture. Also, if "shahr" meant month then "ayam ma3doodat" meaning "the days in the month (30 days or whatever their conjectural month is)" would be redundant. The God doesn't use words unnecessarily.
So if the meanings of "ma3doodat" as "less than or equal to 10" and "shahr" as "full-moon" are clearly given by Classical Arabic dictionaries and are confirmed by the great reading then why invent the new meanings "unlimited counted number" and "30 day period"? The only answer is that people are more interested in justifying their preconceptions than in the truth. It is not surprising that the same people can't let go of their illogical emotional attachment to Mecca and its pagan shrines and rituals.
As we are told in 22, the book can provide guidance only for those who are already forethoughtful. So if people are not inherently uncomfortable with mindlessly spinning seven times around a stone and revering it, then nothing can help them. Similarly, if people aren't bothered when they learn the indisputable fact that the present so-called Islamic Calendar is completely useless at providing restriction periods for hunting wildlife, which follow a seasonal solar cycle, then nothing can help them. It is only forethoughtful people who are concerned about violating The God's restrictions and if they are not even concerned about violating those relating to idolatry, then they are probably much less concerned about violating those relating to hunting of wildlife.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Oben,
The theory is instantly dismissed in another way when one sees...
589 GOD does not hold you responsible for the mere utterance of oaths; He holds you responsible for your actual intentions. If you violate an oath, you shall atone by feeding ten poor people from the same food you offer to your own family, or clothing them, or by freeing a slave. If you cannot afford this, then you shall fast three days. This is the atonement for violating the oaths that you swore to keep. You shall fulfill your oaths. GOD thus explains His revelations to you, that you may be appreciative.Thank you for your excellent insights by comparing 584 and 589. Notice that your analysis is perfectly in agreement with the other waiting periods prescribed between married couples. The counting mechanism of waiting periods between married couples is consistently based on counting natural cyclical EVENTS. The sign in 2226-228 talks about counting the event of the full-moon and then the event of the menstruation. In both cases, the way that we count is the same. We are not counting a fixed number of days but we are counting events.
On another subject, please remember that in the great reading there is no arbitrary break between days at 12AM. In the great reading, the day starts with dawn. So although the full-moon in the data occurs July 11th at 3AM, it is still before dawn and hence the fasting begins on the next "quranic" day after dawn, i.e. still July 11. Also, put your coordinates for the Greenwich meridian here (I used 0 Long and 51N Lat for London's vicinity)
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/
July 10
Universal Altitude Azimuth Fraction
Time (E of N) Illuminated
2040 0.4 138.6 1.00
2050 1.3 140.5 1.00
2100 2.1 142.4 1.00
2110 3.0 144.3 1.00
2120 3.8 146.3 1.00
2130 4.6 148.2 1.00
2140 5.4 150.2 1.00
2150 6.1 152.2 1.00
2200 6.8 154.3 1.00
2210 7.4 156.3 1.00
2220 8.0 158.4 1.00
2230 8.6 160.5 1.00
2240 9.0 162.6 1.00
2250 9.5 164.7 1.00
2300 9.9 166.8 1.00
2310 10.2 169.0 1.00
2320 10.5 171.1 1.00
2330 10.7 173.3 1.00
2340 10.9 175.5 1.00
2350 11.0 177.6 1.00July 11
0000 11.0 179.8 1.00
0010 11.0 182.0 1.00
0020 10.9 184.2 1.00
0030 10.8 186.3 1.00
0040 10.6 188.5 1.00
0050 10.4 190.7 1.00
0100 10.1 192.8 1.00
0110 9.8 195.0 1.00
0120 9.4 197.1 1.00
0130 8.9 199.2 1.00
0140 8.4 201.3 1.00
0150 7.9 203.4 1.00
0200 7.3 205.5 1.00
0210 6.6 207.6 1.00
0220 5.9 209.6 1.00
0230 5.2 211.6 1.00
0240 4.4 213.6 1.00
0250 3.6 215.6 1.00
0300 2.7 217.5 1.00
0310 1.9 219.5 1.00
0320 1.0 221.4 1.00
0330 0.2 223.3 1.00You can see that the moon is observed as 100% illuminated when it appears at 2040 before the official full-moon at 3AM (in red). You see, unlike the new crescent which appears on different nights depending on longitude, the "observed" as full (not the official one) moon, will appear almost everywhere on the same night. Of course, this makes the full-moon much easier and consistent to witness across regions.
Peace,
Ayman
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This is how it should be sister, as simple as it can be, because Allah simplifies things on us, look at the clear cut flaw of those non sense advocates regarding the word Shahr, look the data they needed in 3 different earth locations to confirm their fantasy world of self fasting , did the people 1400 years ago have access to any technology to figure out the tables posted by them?, of course not, now you see some still insisting on this non sense while admitting their lack of the language, I actually wonder, what is the purpose of saying this is that, while I lack the knowledge of this and that?, they say they refer to some dictionaries online or so and yet there is no way for them to verify that what they read there is right, but even with the assumption that everything is read there is right they still insist on the wrong
For example the dictionary said the word shahr = month or full moon and yet they chose the meaning that does not make any sense, you wonder why they do that?, don't they have the same brain like us?, well of course they do, but the fact they totally ignore that Satan effect is not the same on all of us. Now let?s keep exposing their non sense because playing with Allah words is playing with fire as you know, we are trying to help them indeed
.............................Thank you Brother, again very good simple analysis. I have always understood it that way, as to how the words are manipulated and a good example is the "ma3doudatt"-), the number of salats went down to even 1 and now the fasting days went down to 10. Next year, I am sure with more gymnastics of words, the salat number becomes 1 and fasting days 3 days-). I am really amazed by the surgeries all the words underwent-) Arabic is not Arabic and English is not English either anymore-). I wonder what is left of "yassarnahu" (made it easy) that characterises the Quran. As you said, we should leave the matter to God but continue to bring the Arabic text of the Quran and expose it. Peace. Myr.
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On another subject, please remember that in the great reading there is no arbitrary break between days at 12AM. In the great reading, the day starts with dawn. So although the full-moon in the data occurs July 11th at 3AM, it is still before dawn and hence the fasting begins on the next "quranic" day after dawn, i.e. still July 11. Also, put your coordinates for the Greenwich meridian here (I used 0 Long and 51N Lat for London's vicinity)
Peace Ayman,
The times in the post I gave at some point are in Universal Time. It is conceivable that when determining the night of the full moon I overlooked the fact it was after 12 AM and hence the fast could commence in the morning. So my apologies about this very obvious error.
You'll notice that the altitude for your location at 3AM is very low in the night sky - even too low for most observers to see. The translation of Universal Time to timezones can also affect which parts of the earth actually see the full moon on a particular night. It creates all sorts of issues like with the traditionalists who argue over the sighting of the new crescent moon. In the case of the crescent moon there can be no doubt about whether it is sighted or not at a particular place if people set out to see it. The exact full moon is actually more difficult to determine by eyeballing. So people can easily make an error of +/- 2 days but generally more will tend to think it occurs earlier than the actual full moon as the waxing gibbous moon can appear to the naked eye like a full moon.
Regards.
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Salam all,
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I completly agree. We know from inscriptions that the pre-quranic Arabs used the word "warkh" for "month" (this is where the term "tarikh/tawarikh" (date/calendar) derives from). If you check the Classical Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan Al-3arab, you will see that "full-moon" is given as one of the meanings. You will also see that a "30 day period" as Myr and Ahmed conjecture is not given as a meaning by Classical Arabic dictionaries. This is an illogical meaning that they invented.Yes and Ayman chose the meaning of "full-moon" among all the other meanings to give a sense to his theory on the "schorching full-moon". So while Ayman gives himself the freedom to chose, others are not allowed to consider any other meanings and of course are accused of conjecture when they don't go with his choice.
......................The meaning of "ma3doodat" according to Classical Arabic dictionaries is a number that can be counted on the fingers (i.e., less than or equal to 10). As I posted earlier, the occurrences of "ma3ddodat" such as 1220 confirm this meaning. Now notice the use of the expression "a complete 10" in 2196. This is clear confirmation from the great reading that completion of the count of "ma3doodat" (a count less than or equal to 10) is a complete 10. Moreover, using the expression "completing the count" would be illogical if "ma3doodat" meant "unlimited counted number" as Myr and Ahmed conjecture. Also, if "shahr" meant month then "ayam ma3doodat" meaning "the days in the month (30 days or whatever their conjectural month is)" would be redundant. The God doesn't use words unnecessarily.
Not only Ayman is ignoring what I wrote about "ma3doudatt", that is, a fixed/counted/defined/known number/count, but he shows us how a champion he is in manipulating the information others share with him so now in his own words "would be illogical if "ma3doudatt" meant "unlimited counted number"". Who said "unlimited"???, this is a very bad tactics Brother that will lead you to nowhere and now Ayman is adding a new rule to give his theory more consistence a count less than or equal to 10 to "ma3'doudat" so from "few" we are not shifting to "counting" but it has to be up to 10 or less based on a verse (2196) that has absultly nothing to do with "ma3doudatt" but because the number 10 is mentioned so let's highjack it-) so why not other verses like 7142. Bringing verse 2196 proves how weak is Ayman's theory. Add to that, Ayman's analogy of "counting on fingers", of course people can not use their fingers to count up to 30 and that's how the "few" theory will advance and of course Ayman will not look at the verses where "qalillan" and "aqala'", "qalillun" are used.
So if the meanings of "ma3doodat" as "less than or equal to 10" and "shahr" as "full-moon" are clearly given by Classical Arabic dictionaries and are confirmed by the great reading then why invent the new meanings "unlimited counted number" and "30 day period"? The only answer is that people are more interested in justifying their preconceptions than in the truth. It is not surprising that the same people can't let go of their illogical emotional attachment to Mecca and its pagan shrines and rituals.
Yes it becomes for Ayman preconceptions when Ayman himself attributes to those people what they have never said, and even worse, Ayman takes people understanding, changes it, and then plugs a new assumption that he calls truth, such as "less than or equal to 10" and applies it to the people undertanding he twisted, and the final product is what you see above, people undertanding is made to look "illogical emotional" and "preconceptions", in other words, "ignorance". It smells bad Brother and it is very unhealthy from someone who claims to be of the guided and "forethoughful". I am not going to continue this debate, because where it smells bad, it usually stincks, however, ponder about these verses when you distord people understanding to advance yours.
Alam tara kayfa daraba Allahumathalan kalimatan tayyibatan kashajaratin tayyibatinasluha thabitun wafarAAuha fee alssama/-i
Seest thou not how Allah sets forth a parable? - A goodly word like a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the heavens,- of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
7.
Wamathalu kalimatin khabeethatinkashajaratin khabeethatin ijtuththat min fawqi al-ardi malaha min qararin
And the parable of an evil Word is that of an evil tree It is torn up by the root from the surface of the earth it has no stability.Peace. Myr.
Thank you sister
very well put
Cheers
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Peace Oben,
You'll notice that the altitude for your location at 3AM is very low in the night sky - even too low for most observers to see. The translation of Universal Time to timezones can also affect which parts of the earth actually see the full moon on a particular night. It creates all sorts of issues like with the traditionalists who argue over the sighting of the new crescent moon. In the case of the crescent moon there can be no doubt about whether it is sighted or not at a particular place if people set out to see it. The exact full moon is actually more difficult to determine by eyeballing. So people can easily make an error of +/- 2 days but generally more will tend to think it occurs earlier than the actual full moon as the waxing gibbous moon can appear to the naked eye like a full moon.
The full-moon is 2 degrees in diameter. So it should appear in rural areas above tree lines when it is about say 8-10 degrees, maybe lower in a flat desert or in the sea. So it should be obvious at about 2230 in London's Universal Standrad Time vicinity. In my location on the East Coast of the US it appeared just before 2100 (when it was about 9 degrees high). As you can see from the data, this moon at 2230 would be at 8.6 degrees and would continue on a very low path accross the horizon, maintaining its dramatic reddish color. It would also appear 100% illuminated to naked eye observers and even for those with telescopes (notice the Fraction Illumination is 1). So for all intents and purposes, witnessing this full-moon signals the beginning of the fast. By comparison, the moon on the next night is a little less illuminated 99% and takes a higher path in the horizon, and rises later.
Peace,
Ayman