The scorching full-moon (shahr ramadan) is here

adley

Salaam Ayman, Arnold, Marie, Noble, all,

Thanks for the on going discussion about ramaDan. I find the discussions regarding the Arabic language most helpful. And sister Marie, I like your rendering of 2185. ;D

=adley=

noble

Peace Sis Mary,
Your rendition is good.

Peace Bro Ayman
I am reading through your essay on Language Barrier, and it dawned on me why the Quran would have been considered a miracle (amongst other reasons but this one is pretty potent), because as miracles go, it is very unusual and breaks a human law, which was that up until then, in that region of the world, arabic was not a scriptural language, so descending It in arabic is a miracle unto itself, ie a non habitual customary occurence, or a big very unusual and shocking thing...

marie

Peace all,

My two cents about the meaning of the word shahr month or full moon?
According 1712, the year is solar and not lunar. For the solar year, the sun is the only reference for the day and the year, while the lunar year has tow references the sun and the moon.
If shahr means a month in 936, that implies there is two systems of year, the first is homogeneous (solar one reference) and detailed in the Reading and the second is heterogeneous (lunar two references) and not mentioned in the Reading.
Since the year is solar according the Reading, shahr in 936 should be a solar month. Consequently, shahr Ramadan should be also a solar month and must be fixed all the time.
As the year is solar, shahr ramadan is witnessed with our eyes (2185) in the same period of the solar year. Since shahr ramadan is one of the twelve shahr (936) in Gods record, then the eleven shahr should be witnessed with our eyes in the same way than shahr ramadan.

peace

Elke

Peace marie, all

so in that case, when do you place ramadan - now or september ? And how long do you abstain ? 10 days or the whole month. No critical intention here at all sister - i'm just confused myself about this question. The one thing i'm convinced of is that yes the year is solar which would not make a shahr ramadan move around and that the actual 'islamic' calendar used around the world is man made and of no importance IMO in the regard of what god demands of us.

lk

marie

Peace Elke, all,

Until now, I follow the same understanding than Ayman. I will start my abstinence the night when I witness with my eyes shahr ramadan (the first full moon after summer soltice) and complete the count to 10 nights

Thanks Adley and Noble for your comments

peace

noble

Peace marie,
you are most welcome

adley

Salaam Marie,

You're very welcome sister ;D

=adley=

Layth

Peace Ayman & all,

After researching the subject extensively, I have come to the following conclusions

The year according to the Scripture is Luni-Solar (which we already know and agree on).
The period of fasting is 10 days (which we already know and agree on).
The months begin with the crecent moon, not the full moon as you stated (see 2189 & 3639).
The solar year has 4 markers that can be measured (2 solictices, 2 equinox). This would appear to match the 4 verses which speak of a merger of day and night 2261, 576, 3129, 3513 (2 of these verses involve the sun & moon, while 2 only refer to day and night).
Ramadhan is the month of scorching heat, thus the fast begins with the first crescent moon after the summer solisctice. (see 2185)
The 4 restricted months preceed the month of Ramadhan and would begin with the first crescent after the vernal equinox (this conclusion is based on a reverse engineering of 981 which speaks of the muslims going out to fight in the heat, while 92 & 95 tell us that there is a 4 month restriction on fighting (hence they could have only mobilized after the 4 restricted months had passed, which explains why there are complaints of the heat at this time.
The pilgrimage is held once a year, which would begin at the crescent of the first restricted month (i.e. in or around March 20) and would last for an average of 3 days (see 92 which speaks of the period being already within the 4 restricted months, followed by 93 in which the prophet repeats the ultimatium during the peak day of the pilgrimage - also see 2197 which speaks of the pilgrimage being within the restricted months, also see 2827 which indicates that the pilgrimage is used to mark time periods, most possibly meaning years).
Back to the fast of Ramadhan, it is very likely that the mobilization that occured in 981 (after the 4 months had passed) led to the two parties meeting during the full moon ten days later (full moon is the literal meaning of badr as used in the battle of 3123).

God willing, I will expand the above in a more detailed article...I wanted to share these points for the time being to reflect and consider.

noble

Peace Bros Layth, Ayman
It is extremely important we get the understanding right on when to fast. Of course Allah is most Merciful and will not invalidate our previous fasts since we did not know, but you are onto something big. The closer we get to the true message as intended by Allah, the more our chances for success in this Life and the Hereafter.
I have one question here Is it easier with the naked eye to spot the beginning of the lunar month ie a very thin crescent or the full moon?
As for tallying the scenarios from the Quran, they seem to compute
Many thanks again
Noble

marie

Peace all,

I'd like rectify a mistake in my last post and as stated by Layth the year is Luni-solar according the Reading (105, 1712).
About your question Noble, no materiel is needed to observe the full moon contrary to the beginning of the lunar month (thin crescent)
shahr and hilal are two distincts things in the Reading, we are asked to observe shahr and not hilal (new moon) for the abstinence.
IMO shahr is neither a solar month nor a lunar month but the full moon which one can observe easily.
About the new moon in 2189, the abstinence is not mentionned.

They ask you regarding the new moons, Say They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for alhajj

noble

Peace marie
Interesting observation and comment. So hajj starts on a new moon, and the ramadhan period on the full moon after the summer solstice...
Thank you
Noble

marie

Peace noble,

You can finf more information about ahilat/crescent moon and shahr/full moon in the following quotes. I hope you a good reading.

About ahilat (2189) which is mistranslated as new moons

Blind Dating Versus Perfect Timing

A verse that is often mistranslated and hence confused is 2189. Here is the mistranslation of Yusuf Ali

002.189

YUSUFALI They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors And fear Allah That ye may prosper.

Please notice that Yusuf Ali and most other translators translate "ahila(t)" (the plural of "hilal&quot as new moons. On the other hand, the meaning given for "hilal" by Arabic lexicons such as Al-Mo7it, Al-Wasit, and Lisan Al-3arab is different. The lexicons say that the "hilal" is the moon in both its beginning and its end. Yet for some reason, most translators ignored this fact and instead claim that "hilal"/"ahila(t)" means only the new moon. Let's now replace new-moons with the correct translation

They ask you regarding the crescent moons, Say "They are timings for the people as well as for the debate." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of the God that you may succeed.

According to the corrected translation, crescent moons in general (both the thinning crescent and the widening crescent) can serve as timing devices.

About the crescent moons as myqat = timing devices

Another verse that talks about timing/"myqat" is 7142 where Moussa is described as completing the "myqat"/timing. So "myqat"/"mawaqit" can signify timing/timings for completion of something.

And We appointed for Moussa thirty nights, and We completed with ten thus was completed the timing of his Lord, forty nights...

We also hear about 10 nights in 892.

Interestingly, 10 nights is exactly how long it takes for the full-moon to reach the crescent stage. Note the relationship between the 10 extra nights in 7142 and the 10 days of "7ajj"/debate in 2196. We hear about 10 days in 2196, three during the "7aj"/debate and seven when those whose family was not in the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction/"al-masjid al-haram" return. As for those whose family is in the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction, they would stay the whole 10 days. This makes sense because those whose family are not oriented to the truth from our Lord, should go back earlier to teach them based on what they heard. Hence, putting 2189, 7142, and 2196 together, we can see that the "ahila(t)"/crescents provide timing for the completion of the "7ajj"/debate not its beginning.

We also know from 2189 that we should come into houses from the obvious front doors and not from the obscure backs. This hints to us that the "7ajj"/debate starts with the obvious full moon and that the unobvious crescent is what ends the "7ajj"/debate. This way it lasts for 10 total days, which is the exact period from full-moon to crescent

This is how the crescents provide timing for the "7aj"/debate. Moreover, the "7aj"/debate is a known counted days at the restriction "ash-hur"/full moons. They are the 10 days between the full moon and the crescent moon. The first full-moon of the restricted full-moons (the full moon of scorching heat/"ramadhan&quot is for abstinence while the remaining three full moons are for the debate. This gives people three opportunities per year to meet up for the "7ajj"/debate."

adley

Salaam all,

Anyone familiar with the understanding that the shawm of ramaDan does not, in any way, talk about not eating or drinking from fajr until night?

=adley=

ayman

Peace Layth,

Thank you for sharing your conclusions.

The year according to the Scripture is Luni-Solar (which we already know and agree on).
The period of fasting is 10 days (which we already know and agree on).

Agreed. We also agree that crescents are timing devices (2189).

It is an indisputable fact of nature that the only way that a crescent can be used to time a 10 day period is if it times the end of the period starting from the full-moon.

The months begin with the crecent moon, not the full moon as you stated (see 2189 & 3639).

I already explained why 2189 is talking about the crescent timing the end not the beginning of the 10 day period in an earlier post here

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6238.msg97285#msg97285

Please try to answer my comments in that post.

3639 actually confirms that the beginning of the measure is the full-moon. The word "manazil" (comes from "nazal" descend) literally means "descent places", i.e. descent stages.

And the Moon, We have measured for it DESCENT stages till it returns like the withered palm leaf.

The passage clearly talks about the shape of the moon. The shape descends until it returns to be shaped like a thin curved withered palm leaf. The passage doesn't say that it starts as a withered palm leaf. Clearly the shape can't start from a withered palm leaf and then DESCEND to a withered palm leaf. The passage doesn't say anything about rising and then descending. The passage actually hints to the full moon being the first stage of the moon, which is what descends into a withered palm leaf. This process takes exactly 10 days. This passage is linked to Chapter 97, which talks about the night of measure

We have sent it down in the night of measure.

This is the night where the descent of the moon from full-moon to crescent begins to be measured in 3639. So 3639 and 971 are linked.

Also, as sister Marie intelligently indicated "shahr" is something to be witnessed. Please remember that "ahilat" means "crescents". There are actually 24-26 crescents per year. So this would render 936 and 2185 illogical. It is only with the "full-moon" that we can count exactly 12 full-moons every single year to keep the timing of the restriction in sync with the seasons.

The solar year has 4 markers that can be measured (2 solictices, 2 equinox). This would appear to match the 4 verses which speak of a merger of day and night 2261, 576, 3129, 3513 (2 of these verses involve the sun & moon, while 2 only refer to day and night).
Ramadhan is the month of scorching heat, thus the fast begins with the first crescent moon after the summer solisctice. (see 2185)
The 4 restricted months preceed the month of Ramadhan and would begin with the first crescent after the vernal equinox (this conclusion is based on a reverse engineering of 981 which speaks of the muslims going out to fight in the heat, while 92 & 95 tell us that there is a 4 month restriction on fighting (hence they could have only mobilized after the 4 restricted months had passed, which explains why there are complaints of the heat at this time.

This doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would The God give us the end of the period as the marker and not the beginning? 936 is clear in that we are to count 12 "shahr" out of which 4 are restricted. When we count do we naturally count in reverse or in order? The only marker given to us is the scorching "shahr" so it is natural to start counting 4 "shahr" from that marker and not in reverse.

The God didn't restrict fighting in the restricted "shahr" (see 2217). The only restriction is on hunting (51). In 91-5 the treaty is what caused the cessation of fighting during the restricted "shahr". The term of the treaty was 4 "shahr" (51-2). This coincided with the restriction "shahr" but again the stop in fighting was a result of the treaty The God didn't restrict the fighting in those "shahr" and on the contrary He encourages it as per 2217.

981 is the realization of 2217. On the other hand, 91-5 goes against 2217 and this is why The God starts by saying in 91 that He and His messenger has nothing to do with this treaty which stopped fighting in the restricted four "shahr".

The pilgrimage is held once a year, which would begin at the crescent of the first restricted month (i.e. in or around March 20) and would last for an average of 3 days (see 92 which speaks of the period being already within the 4 restricted months, followed by 93 in which the prophet repeats the ultimatium during the peak day of the pilgrimage - also see 2197 which speaks of the pilgrimage being within the restricted months, also see 2827 which indicates that the pilgrimage is used to mark time periods, most possibly meaning years).

2197 clearly says that the "hajj" (the annual fair) is in known "ashhur" (plural). So this indisputably confirms that the "hajj" can take place multiple times during the restricted "ashhur". This is also hinted at in 93 where we are told about the "bigger hajj". Bigger compared to what? There must be other "hajj" in the year to compare it to?

2827 makes no mention of years. What was Moses hired to do? He was hired to work and produce. So 2827 talks about commerce cycles where the products that Moses would help in producing can be sold.

Also, please study hunting restrictions around the world that people have naturally found. You will see that hunting of the vast majority of wild animals resumes in the fall not in the summer as your timing would indicate.

Back to the fast of Ramadhan, it is very likely that the mobilization that occured in 981 (after the 4 months had passed) led to the two parties meeting during the full moon ten days later (full moon is the literal meaning of badr as used in the battle of 3123).

It is a fact that it takes about 14 days NOT 10 days for the waxing crescent to reach the full-moon stage. Please remember that the crescent (shaped like an old curved sheath as per 3639) lasts for about 4-5 days.

As I mentioned above, it is an indisputable fact that the only way that a crescent can be used to time a 10 day period is if it times the end of the period starting from the full-moon.

God willing, I will expand the above in a more detailed article...I wanted to share these points for the time being to reflect and consider.

Thank you for sharing and I think that you made some progress. The main issue that I think you need to realize is that the word "shahr" means "full-moon". This meaning fits in all the occurrences of the term "shahr" as used in the great reading. On the other hand, "crescent" and the ambiguous "month" do not.

Peace,

Ayman

noble

Peace Bro Ayman,
I was waiting for your answer to Bro Layth...
Thank you for the clarifications.
Noble

Layth

Peace Ayman,

It is an indisputable fact of nature that the only way that a crescent can be used to time a 10 day period is if it times the end of the period starting from the full-moon.

The opposite is also true. Beginning with the crescent ends with the full moon.

3639 actually confirms that the beginning of the measure is the full-moon. The word "manazil" (comes from "nazal" descend) literally means "descent places", i.e. descent stages.

And the Moon, We have measured for it DESCENT stages till it returns like the withered palm leaf.

The passage clearly talks about the shape of the moon. The shape descends until it returns to be shaped like a thin curved withered palm leaf. The passage doesn?t say that it starts as a withered palm leaf. Clearly the shape can?t start from a withered palm leaf and then DESCEND to a withered palm leaf. The passage doesn?t say anything about rising and then descending. The passage actually hints to the full moon being the first stage of the moon, which is what descends into a withered palm leaf. This process takes exactly 10 days. This passage is linked to Chapter 97, which talks about the night of measure

We have sent it down in the night of measure.

This is the night where the descent of the moon from full-moon to crescent begins to be measured in 3639. So 3639 and 971 are linked.

Also, as sister Marie intelligently indicated "shahr" is something to be witnessed. Please remember that "ahilat" means "crescents". There are actually 24-26 crescents per year. So this would render 936 and 2185 illogical. It is only with the "full-moon" that we can count exactly 12 full-moons every single year to keep the timing of the restriction in sync with the seasons.

First of all, if you take the meaning of manazil as descend then you are left with half a month as the moon stages both ascend and descend to make a full month. Also, the word mazil is better translated as station which can be seen in 2329. Thus, the moon is designed to appear in stages/stations and not descents.

More importantly, you are completely missing the 2nd half of 3639 which says until it returns like a curved sheath. For something to return means that it is back where it began from, hence for the moon to return like an old curved sheath means the crescent moon is the beginning which is returned to again for a new start.

This doesn?t make a lot of sense. Why would The God give us the end of the period as the marker and not the beginning? 936 is clear in that we are to count 12 "shahr" out of which 4 are restricted. When we count do we naturally count in reverse or in order? The only marker given to us is the scorching "shahr" so it is natural to start counting 4 "shahr" from that marker and not in reverse.

God gives us the beginning of a period ramadhan and we are told this is a period of heat. God also tells us that the 4 restricted months ended at a time of heat. Therefore, the obvious finding is that the 4 restricted months proceed ramadhan, not follow it.

The God didn?t restrict fighting in the restricted "shahr" (see 2217). The only restriction is on hunting (51). In 91-5 the treaty is what caused the cessation of fighting during the restricted "shahr". The term of the treaty was 4 "shahr" (51-2). This coincided with the restriction "shahr" but again the stop in fighting was a result of the treaty The God didn?t restrict the fighting in those "shahr" and on the contrary He encourages it as per 2217.

I have not said that fighting was forbidden in the restricted months, I have said that the sequence of sura 9 leaves no doubt that there was an amnesty of 4 months that was given and that the fighting was only allowed to be resumed at the end of this period 95 and thus when they marched out in 981 and were warned of the heat it is only natural to say that they had mobilized after the 4 months had ended (I say this because it is clearly a calm mobilization of troops that is occurring and not an act of self-defense that would be expected if the rejecters had done a surprise attack on the muslims and they were still in the restricted months).

981 is the realization of 2217. On the other hand, 91-5 goes against 2217 and this is why The God starts by saying in 91 that He and His messenger has nothing to do with this treaty which stopped fighting in the restricted four "shahr".

I see 2117 as a clear response to a question giving permission to fight if attacked during the restricted period. This is very different from 981 where there are battle preparation being observed under it seems organized conditions (i.e. not sporadic self-defense combat).

2197 clearly says that the "hajj" (the annual fair) is in known "ashhur" (plural). So this indisputably confirms that the "hajj" can take place multiple times during the restricted "ashhur". This is also hinted at in 93 where we are told about the "bigger hajj". Bigger compared to what? There must be other "hajj" in the year to compare it to?

The ashhur is in reference to the 4 restricted months which the pilgrimage heralds (and not the pilgrimage itself). The wording yawm alhajj alakbar is the peak day of the pilgrimage which would be the 3rd day of the pilgrimage (and not meaning there is a bigger or smaller pilgrimage).

2827 makes no mention of years. What was Moses hired to do? He was hired to work and produce. So 2827 talks about commerce cycles where the products that Moses would help in producing can be sold.

Moses entered into a contract for 8 pilgrimages (with an option to complete to 10). If we follow the multiple pilgrimages understanding, then that means he spent 2 years in Median. I am not even sure how you want to count the 2 extra pilgrimages if he remained till 10 (since you are having the pilgrimages sequential).

Also, please study hunting restrictions around the world that people have naturally found. You will see that hunting of the vast majority of wild animals resumes in the fall not in the summer as your timing would indicate.

The danger period is not the summer, but is the spring when most wild animals begin to give birth. The period of 4 months gives the young enough time to fend for themselves and thus ensures the continuity of the species.

It is a fact that it takes about 14 days NOT 10 days for the waxing crescent to reach the full-moon stage. Please remember that the crescent (shaped like an old curved sheath as per 3639) lasts for about 4-5 days.

That is not a fact. The fact is that the crescent moon to the full moon takes 10 days (as does the full moon to the crescent moon).

As I mentioned above, it is an indisputable fact that the only way that a crescent can be used to time a 10 day period is if it times the end of the period starting from the full-moon.

The moon works the same way whether it is waking or waning, thus for you to state that it gives 10 days going one way but gives 14 going the other is not correct.

Thank you for sharing and I think that you made some progress. The main issue that I think you need to realize is that the word "shahr" means "full-moon". This meaning fits in all the occurrences of the term "shahr" as used in the great reading. On the other hand, "crescent" and the ambiguous "month" do not.

I have begun with your view and then tried to see if it confirmed or not with the Scripture?The meaning of full moon did not correspond, especially given the verses which speak of the crescent and the moon returning to a curved sheath/crescent. Also, we know in Arabic that the full moon is called Badr, and that the Scripture uses the word Badr when speaking of a specific battle that took place (which must mean that the battle took place under the full moon). The word shahar means that which is revealed and for the moon to begin to reveal itself via the crescent is enough for the definition without having to qualify it with a full moon which as I mentioned causes a problem with other verses.

ayman

Peace Layth,

It is an indisputable fact of nature that the only way that a crescent can be used to time a 10 day period is if it times the end of the period starting from the full-moon.
The opposite is also true. Beginning with the crescent ends with the full moon.

This is not true and I apologize if I wasn't clear. Brother, it takes 14 days from the time the crescent appears until the full-moon. This is a well known indisputable fact. So the new crescent can't be used to time a 10 day period as you propose. The opposite is not true because the timing is from full-moon to crescent NOT until the crescent disappears. It is like this

Since your timing mechanism is the NEW CRESCENT, it is 14-15 days to the full-moon. It is impossible for the new crescent to be used to time a 10 day period.

First of all, if you take the meaning of manazil as descend then you are left with half a month as the moon stages both ascend and descend to make a full month.

There is no issue there. There is nothing in the passage that suggests that it represents a full month (whatever month means).

Also, the word mazil is better translated as station which can be seen in 2329. Thus, the moon is designed to appear in stages/stations and not descents.

The word "manazil" also means descents in 2329 and this is confirmed by 1148, which talks about the same event. Notice the word "ihbat" (be lowered/descend) used in 1148 to talk about the same event.

More importantly, you are completely missing the 2nd half of 3639 which says until it returns like a curved sheath. For something to return means that it is back where it began from, hence for the moon to return like an old curved sheath means the crescent moon is the beginning which is returned to again for a new start.

This is precisely the point. If you look at an old curved sheath, you will see that the new moon doesn't look like an old curved sheath just once or on only one day. The new crescent appears like an old curved sheath for 4-5 days. The moon appears again like an old curved sheath 20 days later and it stays that way for 4-5 days until it disappears.

Here is what we know for sure

3639 talks about the shape of the moon.
3639 talks about the shape descent (see 2329 and 114.
There is nothing in 3639 about the shape rising and then descending.

Of course, the crescent returns every cycle shaped as an old curved sheath. So the word "return" refers to this point of the lunar cycle. The passage doesn't give information about when the cycle begins and ends.

If one takes the time between the "old curved sheath" shape and the next "old curved sheath" shape then this is actually either 6-7 days (waning - waxing crescent) or 20 days (waxing to waning crescent). So the time of a crescent starting as an "old curved sheath" and ending as an "old curved sheath" is never going to be the length of the lunar cycle and it will depend on whether what we are observing is the waning or the waxing crescent. On the other hand, there is only one full-moon per cycle. So the time between full-moons is ALWAYS going to be the length of the lunar cycle.

God gives us the beginning of a period ramadhan and we are told this is a period of heat. God also tells us that the 4 restricted months ended at a time of heat. Therefore, the obvious finding is that the 4 restricted months proceed ramadhan, not follow it.

When we look at 2217, we get the picture that the fighting was inside the restricted "shahr" not after it. The passages in 91-5 are a one year anomaly that The God did not sanction.

I have not said that fighting was forbidden in the restricted months, I have said that the sequence of sura 9 leaves no doubt that there was an amnesty of 4 months that was given and that the fighting was only allowed to be resumed at the end of this period 95 and thus when they marched out in 981 and were warned of the heat it is only natural to say that they had mobilized after the 4 months had ended (I say this because it is clearly a calm mobilization of troops that is occurring and not an act of self-defense that would be expected if the rejecters had done a surprise attack on the muslims and they were still in the restricted months).

981 talks about striving against "kufar" (rejecters) and the hypocrites (973) while 91-5 talks about fighting those who setup partners who the believers had a treaty with. There is no indication that the group that the believers are striving against in 981 and the passages around it are the same as the group that they are fighting in 91-5. Please remember that "fighting" is a special case of "striving". Thus, not all of it is fighting and it may not involve fighting at all.

I see 2117 as a clear response to a question giving permission to fight if attacked during the restricted period. This is very different from 981 where there are battle preparation being observed under it seems organized conditions (i.e. not sporadic self-defense combat).

Believers are never to attack and commit aggression first and fighting is always only allowed in self-defense. It doesn't matter if it is the restricted period or not.

2217 starts with "they ask you". This indicates asking about a custom or event that is already known by those who ask. The known custom is that Arabs used to restrict fighting during the restriction period. The messenger replies that fighting in self-defense is allowed, just like any period of the year. Now this is why The God said that He and His messenger have nothing to do with the treaty in 91-5. This treaty reinforces the false custom that fighting is prohibited in the restriction period.

The ashhur is in reference to the 4 restricted months which the pilgrimage heralds (and not the pilgrimage itself). The wording yawm alhajj alakbar is the peak day of the pilgrimage which would be the 3rd day of the pilgrimage (and not meaning there is a bigger or smaller pilgrimage).

Why is it heralded by 4 so-called months? If it is only on one occasion, then ONE "month" would have been enough to herald it. There is nothing in the great reading indicating that the 3rd day or any day is "bigger". In fact, we are told that people can hurry in TWO days in 2203 without any issue. This is most likely talking about the "bigger" annual fair being that attended by most people. Usually, this would be the first such fair of the season when after a long absence people are eager to return to trade.

Moses entered into a contract for 8 pilgrimages (with an option to complete to 10). If we follow the multiple pilgrimages understanding, then that means he spent 2 years in Median. I am not even sure how you want to count the 2 extra pilgrimages if he remained till 10 (since you are having the pilgrimages sequential).

It depends on how many times during the "hajj" season the people of Median went to the "hajj". If they went once in the season then it would have been once per year. If they went twice then it would have been 4-5 years, etc. The "hajj" takes place on three occasions per year but not everyone has to go to all three occasions.

As an interesting side note, Jews even today are supposed to perform three "pilgrimages" per year. Those culminate in a festival in late summer - early fall which is akin to a harvest festival. Such "harvest festivals", which occur from mid summer to early fall are common in most cultures, ancient and modern. On the other hand, you don't find such natural universal gatherings in the spring when crops haven't produced anything yet.

The danger period is not the summer, but is the spring when most wild animals begin to give birth. The period of 4 months gives the young enough time to fend for themselves and thus ensures the continuity of the species.

Most animals give birth in the late spring - summer time frame. Resuming hunting in the summer would not protect anything. Since the newborn animal born either in the late spring or summer would be too young to fend for themselves in the summer. They would only be old enough by the fall. This is why hunting restrictions are lifted in the fall and not in the summer as your timing indicates. For example, please see sample hunting seasons here

http//www.state.me.us/ifw/hunttrap/2006huntseasonstext.htm
http//www.state.tn.us/twra/hunt001b2a.html
http//www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Hunting/hunting_dates_and_seasons.htm
http//www.iowadnr.com/wildlife/files/seasondates.html

Notice that for the vast majority of animals, hunting is resumed in the fall NOT the summer.

It is a fact that it takes about 14 days NOT 10 days for the waxing crescent to reach the full-moon stage. Please remember that the crescent (shaped like an old curved sheath as per 3639) lasts for about 4-5 days.

That is not a fact. The fact is that the crescent moon to the full moon takes 10 days (as does the full moon to the crescent moon).

You indicated that your timing is based on the NEW CRESCENT not the 4-5 day old crescent. As I indicated above, from NEW CRESCENT to full-moon is 14 days. This is indisputable. The only way that a crescent can time a 10 day period is if you use the waning crescent to mark the end of the 10 day period from full moon to waning crescent.

The moon works the same way whether it is waking or waning, thus for you to state that it gives 10 days going one way but gives 14 going the other is not correct.

It is correct because unlike the full-moon, which appears once in the cycle on only one night, the crescents last for a few days (4-5 days) looking "like a curved old sheath". So from the appearance of the new moon it is going to be 14-15 days, while from full moon to waning crescent it will be 10 days and then the waning crescent will stay on for about 4-5 days (Total=14-15 days). So the new crescent cannot be used to time a ten day period. This is a fact.

I have begun with your view and then tried to see if it confirmed or not with the Scripture?The meaning of full moon did not correspond, especially given the verses which speak of the crescent and the moon returning to a curved sheath/crescent. Also, we know in Arabic that the full moon is called Badr, and that the Scripture uses the word Badr when speaking of a specific battle that took place (which must mean that the battle took place under the full moon). The word shahar means that which is revealed and for the moon to begin to reveal itself via the crescent is enough for the definition without having to qualify it with a full moon which as I mentioned causes a problem with other verses.

We also know that in Classical Arabic the word "shahr" means full-moon and this is documented in Lexicons such as Lisan Al-3arab. As I said, the main criterion is to substitute full-moon in all the occurrences to see if it fits. There is no indication in 3123 of it meaning the timing, let alone the full moon. The only other time a word related to "badr" occurs is in 46 and if you substitute "full-moon" there you get nonsense. So it clearly has nothing to do with the full-moon. Its meaning has more to do with "initiative". Obtaining victory by taking the initiative is logical. Also, prohibiting people from taking the initiative in spending the property of the orphans in 46 also makes sense.

I think that the only problem you mentioned was 3639 and hopefully, I adequately addressed that. Your other objections were based on your misunderstanding of the indisputable fact that the new waxing crescent (or as you say the moon when it begins to reveal itself via the crescent) cannot be used to time a 10 day period. Hopefully, once you correct this misunderstanding, we can come to a closer agreement.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

Insignia

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6458.0
Please visit the Post
And Reflect your thoughts

Layth

Peace Ayman,

Sorry for my delayed response...I have been busy with a few things as well as giving myself time to study this subject from all angles.

This is not true and I apologize if I wasn't clear. Brother, it takes 14 days from the time the crescent appears until the full-moon. This is a well known indisputable fact. So the new crescent can't be used to time a 10 day period as you propose. The opposite is not true because the timing is from full-moon to crescent NOT until the crescent disappears. It is like this

Since your timing mechanism is the NEW CRESCENT, it is 14-15 days to the full-moon. It is impossible for the new crescent to be used to time a 10 day period.

I see your explanation. However, I believe you are building a wrong conclusion by focusing on the 10-day issue as if it is the determining factor (which it is not since the count of 10-days can be made from any starting point with no need for universal markers).

The word "manazil" also means descents in 2329 and this is confirmed by 1148, which talks about the same event. Notice the word "ihbat" (be lowered/descend) used in 1148 to talk about the same event.

The moon does not move up or down, it rather moves side to side. Also, the entire argument you are making has no meat to it since the movement you select will only give half a month (i.e. the moon reflection moves to the left for about 15 days and to the right for about 15 days). Stages or phases is a far more logical and accurate representation than descents.

Quote from Layth on July 22, 2006, 094138 AM
More importantly, you are completely missing the 2nd half of 3639 which says until it returns like a curved sheath. For something to return means that it is back where it began from, hence for the moon to return like an old curved sheath means the crescent moon is the beginning which is returned to again for a new start.

This is precisely the point. If you look at an old curved sheath, you will see that the new moon doesn't look like an old curved sheath just once or on only one day. The new crescent appears like an old curved sheath for 4-5 days. The moon appears again like an old curved sheath 20 days later and it stays that way for 4-5 days until it disappears.

Agree.

Here is what we know for sure

3639 talks about the shape of the moon.
3639 talks about the shape descent (see 2329 and 114.
There is nothing in 3639 about the shape rising and then descending.

Of course, the crescent returns every cycle shaped as an old curved sheath. So the word "return" refers to this point of the lunar cycle. The passage doesn't give information about when the cycle begins and ends.

You have presented nothing to substantiate with here...The crescent returns twice in every moon cycle, and the word descent is a misrepresentation of the moons movement (let alone that choosing left or right movement would only give you half a month).

Therefore, I see your findings on this issue are greatly lacking.

If one takes the time between the "old curved sheath" shape and the next "old curved sheath" shape then this is actually either 6-7 days (waning - waxing crescent) or 20 days (waxing to waning crescent). So the time of a crescent starting as an "old curved sheath" and ending as an "old curved sheath" is never going to be the length of the lunar cycle and it will depend on whether what we are observing is the waning or the waxing crescent. On the other hand, there is only one full-moon per cycle. So the time between full-moons is ALWAYS going to be the length of the lunar cycle.

Your argument is valid only if we pretend that the words returns as a curved sheath never existed and we take the moon reflection to move up & down (which it does not) and then we argue that a complete descent gives us a full moon. This is why I have not agreed with your findings as of the time you presented them since they do not hold water.

Quote from Layth on July 22, 2006, 094138 AM
God gives us the beginning of a period ramadhan and we are told this is a period of heat. God also tells us that the 4 restricted months ended at a time of heat. Therefore, the obvious finding is that the 4 restricted months proceed ramadhan, not follow it.

When we look at 2217, we get the picture that the fighting was inside the restricted "shahr" not after it. The passages in 91-5 are a one year anomaly that The God did not sanction.

What is more logical, that we look at the same Sura in which the 4 month ultimatum is given and after which we are told they marched in the heat, or, that we zoom to Sura 2 while totally ignoring what was said in 981 and then we make an assumption that a question people asked the prophet about what is allowed and what is not allowed in the restricted month means that they actually broke the 4 month ultimatum and fought in that period?

Obviously the link to 981 is far more logical and reasonable than the reference to 2217 that is being projected.

Quote from Layth on July 22, 2006, 094138 AM
I have not said that fighting was forbidden in the restricted months, I have said that the sequence of sura 9 leaves no doubt that there was an amnesty of 4 months that was given and that the fighting was only allowed to be resumed at the end of this period 95 and thus when they marched out in 981 and were warned of the heat it is only natural to say that they had mobilized after the 4 months had ended (I say this because it is clearly a calm mobilization of troops that is occurring and not an act of self-defense that would be expected if the rejecters had done a surprise attack on the muslims and they were still in the restricted months).

981 talks about striving against "kufar" (rejecters) and the hypocrites (973) while 91-5 talks about fighting those who setup partners who the believers had a treaty with. There is no indication that the group that the believers are striving against in 981 and the passages around it are the same as the group that they are fighting in 91-5. Please remember that "fighting" is a special case of "striving". Thus, not all of it is fighting and it may not involve fighting at all.

See my response above...Is it more reasonable to see 981 as a continuation of events in Sura 9 or to zoom to Sura 2 and assume that is the continuation?

Quote from Layth on July 22, 2006, 094138 AM
I see 2117 as a clear response to a question giving permission to fight if attacked during the restricted period. This is very different from 981 where there are battle preparation being observed under it seems organized conditions (i.e. not sporadic self-defense combat).

Believers are never to attack and commit aggression first and fighting is always only allowed in self-defense. It doesn't matter if it is the restricted period or not.

Please re-read Sura 9. The believers were already aggressed against and the treaty broken (which is why 4 months was given for the rejecters to repent and surrender or be wiped out).

2217 starts with "they ask you". This indicates asking about a custom or event that is already known by those who ask. The known custom is that Arabs used to restrict fighting during the restriction period. The messenger replies that fighting in self-defense is allowed, just like any period of the year. Now this is why The God said that He and His messenger have nothing to do with the treaty in 91-5. This treaty reinforces the false custom that fighting is prohibited in the restriction period.

Actually, the term they ask you means that the subject is not a known one. The entire concept of the 4 restricted months was muddled by the time of the revelation as we are told it was rotated out of sequence so that the idolaters could make lawful what God had forbidden. Therefore, they are asking about something they do not know or are not sure about (can we have sex with our wives during menstruation? what is the Ruh? who was Zul Qarnain? What about the Hour? etc.).

Why is it heralded by 4 so-called months? If it is only on one occasion, then ONE "month" would have been enough to herald it. There is nothing in the great reading indicating that the 3rd day or any day is "bigger". In fact, we are told that people can hurry in TWO days in 2203 without any issue. This is most likely talking about the "bigger" annual fair being that attended by most people. Usually, this would be the first such fair of the season when after a long absence people are eager to return to trade.

Any number that is greater than the previous can be called akbar. Therefore, if the Hajj is 10 days as you say, then the 10th day is the akbar day from its previous ones. As for the months being plural, the Hajj is heralding the start of 4 months which are restricted, hence it and the 4 months may be referenced as one.

Quote from Layth on July 22, 2006, 094138 AM
Moses entered into a contract for 8 pilgrimages (with an option to complete to 10). If we follow the multiple pilgrimages understanding, then that means he spent 2 years in Median. I am not even sure how you want to count the 2 extra pilgrimages if he remained till 10 (since you are having the pilgrimages sequential).

It depends on how many times during the "hajj" season the people of Median went to the "hajj". If they went once in the season then it would have been once per year. If they went twice then it would have been 4-5 years, etc. The "hajj" takes place on three occasions per year but not everyone has to go to all three occasions.

The conversation of Moses indicates that he and the father of his future wife were both speaking the same language when it came to the number of pilgrimages as it did not have a qualification. The measure of Moses gives an understanding that he actually spent ten years in Medien.

As an interesting side note, Jews even today are supposed to perform three "pilgrimages" per year. Those culminate in a festival in late summer - early fall which is akin to a harvest festival. Such "harvest festivals", which occur from mid summer to early fall are common in most cultures, ancient and modern. On the other hand, you don't find such natural universal gatherings in the spring when crops haven't produced anything yet.

And they perform Salat 3 times...Will you chose to perform Salat 3 times and abandon the 2 times only that you find in the Scripture for the benefit of the Jewish scripts? Obviously the final Scripture overrides and supersedes all other scripts, thus what is practiced by the pagan jews or chritsians or sunnis or shia is of no consequence and no relevance in the search for truth.

Quote from Layth on July 22, 2006, 094138 AM
The danger period is not the summer, but is the spring when most wild animals begin to give birth. The period of 4 months gives the young enough time to fend for themselves and thus ensures the continuity of the species.

Most animals give birth in the late spring - summer time frame. Resuming hunting in the summer would not protect anything. Since the newborn animal born either in the late spring or summer would be too young to fend for themselves in the summer. They would only be old enough by the fall. This is why hunting restrictions are lifted in the fall and not in the summer as your timing indicates.

Different states have different hunting times which are open to change based on the status of the animals in question. The search I made on gazelles for example (which is a common animal to the Middle East) indicated that the birth of newborns is around the spring, with a period of about 3 months required before the young is able to move on its own and feed itself.

We also know that in Classical Arabic the word "shahr" means full-moon and this is documented in Lexicons such as Lisan Al-3arab. As I said, the main criterion is to substitute full-moon in all the occurrences to see if it fits. There is no indication in 3123 of it meaning the timing, let alone the full moon. The only other time a word related to "badr" occurs is in 46 and if you substitute "full-moon" there you get nonsense. So it clearly has nothing to do with the full-moon. Its meaning has more to do with "initiative". Obtaining victory by taking the initiative is logical. Also, prohibiting people from taking the initiative in spending the property of the orphans in 46 also makes sense.

Hold off here...You are making a statement as if it is a fact when it is not. The word shahar means that which is revealed. The moon is first revealed with the appearance of its crescent and continues all the way until its last crescent (any period within the illumination is upholding the meaning of shahar, therefore to restrict it to the full moon is not correct and should not be stated as if it is a fact).

I think that the only problem you mentioned was 3639 and hopefully, I adequately addressed that. Your other objections were based on your misunderstanding of the indisputable fact that the new waxing crescent (or as you say the moon when it begins to reveal itself via the crescent) cannot be used to time a 10 day period. Hopefully, once you correct this misunderstanding, we can come to a closer agreement.

You did not address the issue of 3639 nor did you formulate a strong argument for the full moon (rather you focused on the 10 days as if they were the key and left 3639 which spoke of the moon returning like a curved sheath as if it never was mentioned).

Now, having said all of the above, I have a surprise statement to add to my comments above...

I agree with you that the month begins with the full moon

My agreement with your conclusion is based on an in-depth reading of 2189 & 3639 which I will expand on if required.

Obviously I do not agree at all with your finding that the 4 months occur after Ramadhan (they occur before Ramadhan for the reasons already pointed out).

Regards,

wildguest1956

Peace Ayman,

Sorry for my delayed response...I have been busy with a few things as well as giving myself time to study this subject from all angles.

Quote from Layth on July 22, 2006, 094138 AM
The danger period is not the summer, but is the spring when most wild animals begin to give birth. The period of 4 months gives the young enough time to fend for themselves and thus ensures the continuity of the species.

Most animals give birth in the late spring - summer time frame. Resuming hunting in the summer would not protect anything. Since the newborn animal born either in the late spring or summer would be too young to fend for themselves in the summer. They would only be old enough by the fall. This is why hunting restrictions are lifted in the fall and not in the summer as your timing indicates.

Different states have different hunting times which are open to change based on the status of the animals in question. The search I made on gazelles for example (which is a common animal to the Middle East) indicated that the birth of newborns is around the spring, with a period of about 3 months required before the young is able to move on its own and feed itself.

See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6289.0

Peace