The scorching full-moon (shahr ramadan) is here
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Peace Layth,
Sorry for my delayed response...I have been busy with a few things as well as giving myself time to study this subject from all angles.
It is OK brother, no need to apologize. We all get busy and need time to study. It is better to have patience and spend our time wisely.
With this in mind, I would like to start with what we agree on since this will allow us to focus and spend our time wisely to reach an understanding that is nearer to the truth. Therefore, I will address your last point first.
Now, having said all of the above, I have a surprise statement to add to my comments above...
I agree with you that the month begins with the full moon
My agreement with your conclusion is based on an in-depth reading of 2189 & 3639 which I will expand on if required.
Obviously I do not agree at all with your finding that the 4 months occur after Ramadhan (they occur before Ramadhan for the reasons already pointed out).Brother, you know me. So you know that I am definitely interested in learning why you agree and specifically about your in-depth reading of 2189 & 3639. This is far more interesting to me than simply agreeing.
I think that the main points of difference between our views were
- You used the new crescent moon as opposed to the full-moon as the meaning of "shahr".
- You proposed that the restriction period is before the scorching "shahr" as opposed to after it.
So hopefully, this leaves only the second point as the one remaining issue.
I don't want to divert attention from the main issues so at this stage, I will only briefly address a couple of your objections and then we can revisit the other issues as needed.
I agree that the 10-day issue is just one of the factors, not the only one. The 10 days from full-moon to waning crescent allowing the waning crescent to be used as a timing device of the 10 day fast and the 10 day (max) "hajj" is just icing on the cake. ) Those kinds of small pieces of the puzzle fitting together and naturally falling into place simply tells me that we are on the right track.
One can say the lit side of the moon moves down from full-moon at a left angle (northern hemisphere) or down at a right angle (southern hemisphere) or straight down (near the equator) until it becomes a waning crescent. However, this is very verbose and the passage instead elegantly summarizes this process. You can run all those scenarios here
http//www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/applets/equatorialmoon/equatorialmoon.html
JM kindly provided the research about the weaning periods for animals in Arabia, so please follow the link that he provided to those discussions. Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing your insights into 2189 and 3639, which led you to agree with the full-moon being the meaning of "shahr".
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
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Salaam all,
Anyone familiar with the understanding that the shawm of ramaDan does not, in any way, talk about not eating or drinking from fajr until night?
=adley=
Salam Sejahtera adley,
I am no longer practising fasting in the sense of abstaining food and drinks during Ramadhan. Had Allah demanded mankind to do "religious fasting", al Qur'an would have detailed out all the steps and procedures pertaining to this practise. And we would not have this long thread.
Salam
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Salaam Phil,
Thanks for replying. How's Malaysia? ;D
Can you explain to me basically how you read 2187?
From what I can read, if this verse does not talk about eating and drinking in the literal sense, then "kullu wasrabu" means something completely different. I am thinking that this phrase means to immerse one's self in the quran, learning and seeking guidance from it ("eat and drink" from the quran). And the white thread vs. black thread perhaps to tell us that we should maintain the self-discipline (shawm) by reading the quran until it is clear which is the truth and which is the falsehood. And of course, during this intense activity, sexual relationship should not be performed (2187), because we are trying to implement the act of hearing and obeying/submitting/complying with The God's guidance and commands. (I do not view "masjid" here as physical place either).
This self-discipline activity would last for 10 days, as a preparation for the time of gathering which is the debate (al-hajj). Thus, the participants in the debate will know what they are talking about (443) and no baseless arguments will be put forth (2197). All of this, perhaps, so that the gift of guidance can reach its destination (2196). So that the people will come to realize the deen of The God (2227-29).
Oh, by the way, I still shawm by not eating and drinking though. ;D
=adley=
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Peace Phil,
I am no longer practising fasting in the sense of abstaining food and drinks during Ramadhan. Had Allah demanded mankind to do "religious fasting", al Qur'an would have detailed out all the steps and procedures pertaining to this practise. And we would not have this long thread.
Long threads don't exist due to lack of details, believe me. But, to each his own, I guess. What I see as clear, unambiguous and detailed, someone else might not, and vice versa. ) -
Salaam Phil,
Thanks for replying. How's Malaysia? ;D
Salam Sejahtera adley.
You r most welcome. And here in Malaysia our Deputy Prime Minister is asking us to adjsut our lifestyle from the recent hike on petrol price. I wish malaysian are also entitled to petrol allowance as enjoyed by our fellow politicians. >(
Can you explain to me basically how you read 2187?
From what I can read, if this verse does not talk about eating and drinking in the literal sense, then "kullu wasrabu" means something completely different. I am thinking that this phrase means to immerse one's self in the quran, learning and seeking guidance from it ("eat and drink" from the quran). And the white thread vs. black thread perhaps to tell us that we should maintain the self-discipline (shawm) by reading the quran until it is clear which is the truth and which is the falsehood. And of course, during this intense activity, sexual relationship should not be performed (2187), because we are trying to implement the act of hearing and obeying/submitting/complying with The God's guidance and commands. (I do not view "masjid" here as physical place either).
Shawm as in Q2.183 is also enjoined to earlier generation before Muhammad era. From ("eat and drink" from the quran). taken from your post above, i read Q575 where we can find kana ya/kulani alttaAAama which literaly translated to "they were (B) eating the food;" So I tend to agree with you on this one as the ayats are referring on how we can gain (eat?) the benefit from the message sent down through the messengers.
This self-discipline activity would last for 10 days, as a preparation for the time of gathering which is the debate (al-hajj). Thus, the participants in the debate will know what they are talking about (443) and no baseless arguments will be put forth (2197). All of this, perhaps, so that the gift of guidance can reach its destination (2196). So that the people will come to realize the deen of The God (2227-29).
Oh, by the way, I still shawm by not eating and drinking though. ;D
=adley=
Shawm by not eating and drinking certainly contradicts 1926. Anyway have peace in whatever you choose to believe
Salam
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Peace Phil,
I am no longer practising fasting in the sense of abstaining food and drinks during Ramadhan. Had Allah demanded mankind to do "religious fasting", al Qur'an would have detailed out all the steps and procedures pertaining to this practise. And we would not have this long thread.
Long threads don't exist due to lack of details, believe me. But, to each his own, I guess. What I see as clear, unambiguous and detailed, someone else might not, and vice versa.Salam zenje.
My personal observation on this thread, which has grown to 7 pages up to now (and not forgetting the other related threads on Ramadhan) is sometimes born out of the needs to justify the abstainism as a religious rituals. As long as we walk on this line, I personally believe that this issue will become a never ending story. No matter how hard you try, you'll realize that there's contradiction the moment you intepret the words Shawm to mean some kind of religious rituals.
The same goes with other rituals as practised by Muslims and other faiths, where you will find many versions of practices promoted by different group of people with respective theories and references to legitimize the way of performing those rituals.
We fall into the same trap as our ancestors had gone through, thus believing that God commands us a set of religious ritual practices for us to become righteous.
Though it may sound heretic in nature, but that's my personal understanding from the Great Reading.
Salam
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Salaam Phil,
I'll open a new thread to discuss this issue. I hope you can share your detailed understanding there. Would you mind?
I'm trying to learn from a new angle DAnd here in Malaysia our Deputy Prime Minister is asking us to adjsut our lifestyle from the recent hike on petrol price. I wish malaysian are also entitled to petrol allowance as enjoyed by our fellow politicians.
I feel you man. Here, the gasoline is so expensive that the price chokes the poor. With so many disasters and damages to crops and farms, I don't know how these people can hold on. Man, I wish I were rich. ;D
=adley=
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Peace Phil,
My personal observation on this thread, which has grown to 7 pages up to now (and not forgetting the other related threads on Ramadhan) is sometimes born out of the needs to justify the abstainism as a religious rituals.
I was just pointing out that the theory of long threads due to lack of details on a subject is not correct. Case and point - http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3458.0 (not forgetting a whole bunch of other threads related to Homosexuality).Though it may sound heretic in nature, but that's my personal understanding from the Great Reading.
I don't see anything heretic about it. As long as you are clear in your understanding and at peace with it, good for you. handshakePeace
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Peace brother Phil,
Shawm by not eating and drinking certainly contradicts 1926.
Can you please explain how "shawm" by not eating and drinking contradicts 1926 ?
1926 "So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then Say "I have declared a fast for the Almighty, and I will not talk today to any of mankind.""
According to the context of this verse, the "shawm"/abstinence being talked about here is abstinence from talking. The "shawm"/abstinence mentioned in 2187 is a different kind of "shawm" according to the context. here it is "shawm"/abstinence from eating, drinking, and having sex. Thus there is no contradiction between "shawm" by not eating and drinking and 1926.
Peace.
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Peace brother Phil,
Shawm by not eating and drinking certainly contradicts 1926.
Can you please explain how "shawm" by not eating and drinking contradicts 1926 ?
1926 "So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then Say "I have declared a fast for the Almighty, and I will not talk today to any of mankind.""
According to the context of this verse, the "shawm"/abstinence being talked about here is abstinence from talking. The "shawm"/abstinence mentioned in 2187 is a different kind of "shawm" according to the context. here it is "shawm"/abstinence from eating, drinking, and having sex. Thus there is no contradiction between "shawm" by not eating and drinking and 1926.
Peace.
Peace bro tanveer.
Thanks for sharing your thought.
Agreeing with you that "shawm" in Q1926 is not related to abstinence to eating and drinking but self-restrain from talking. But the way I see, the diphtong "fa" in the ayats indicates a continous/interconnected events that relates to the "shawm" and to "eat and drink" and to "will not talk".
Thus the idea of after eat and drink, then you fast/abstinence as per your translation to me is ignoring the role of "fa" in the ayats. On top of that, the translation of having to declare a fast for the Almighty to me is questionable. Are we suppose to believe that the Almighty needs us to fast for Him? Hope to get some clarifications.
What I see, in essence the ayat talks about
- eat and drink
- fast
- not talk
Being in abstinence/fast as per Q1926 means not talking, (need helps on this, literally talking or ?) but at the same time you eat and drink. (refers back to Q1925, hence physically eat and drink)
Now relate back the "shawm" in Q2187, we see another element being added as one performs the "shawm"
- intercourse at night of the fasting
- and eat and drink until the thread the white appears from the thread the black from the dawn
- then complete the fasting to the night
- and do not touch their outer skin (while) you are devoting in the mosques/places of worshipping God.
As for no 2, I'm in line with what bro adley had mentioned earlier and further evidence is from the reading Q575. (not physically eat the food? rather gain the guidance from the message?)
Therefor to associate no 3 with abstinence from eating, drinking (physical act) to me will contradict Q1926.
Appreciate to hear your comments to better understand the message.
Regards
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Peace brother Phil,
The word "shawm" itself only means abstinence. What exactly are we to abstain from is determined by the context. The "shawm" in 1926 is a different kind of "shawm" according to the context, than the "shawm" in 2187. Thus IMO they do not contradict while meaning abstaining from different things.
Because of this, even if we take your interpretation of "shawm" as not abstaining from eating or drinking in 1926, it would still not contradict with 2187 meaning "shawm" from eating and drinking.
I will appreciate comments from other members of the forum who are well versed with the Arabic language about the role of "fa" and their take on this issue. As far as I am concerned, even with your interpretation of "fa" there is still no contradiction as I explained above.
Peace.
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Peace,
It is important to look at the context and not to create fixed meanings, as this would create contradictions in this case. This happens a lot when meanings gets fixed and the context is neglected.
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Peace,
If you live in a tropic region then I'm sure you have a season where it is hotter than other seasons. If it is the the same all year long then just pick one month out of the year to fast in.
Peace,
I used to disagree with the extreme heat idea. But now I do agree with it. However, there had to be some reconciliation with grammatical features. The only way it works is if shah-ru ramadaana is read s shahru-rramadaana and understood as shah-run ramadaanan, which would equal shah-run saifan, and the alladhee has to refer to the Quran, and the hi in feehi to God/ in it(referring to the month). Therefore shahruramadaana (A month of during heat (literally heat-wise) alladhee unzila feehi al-quraanu (what was revealed in it, was this reading (the Quran).
So definitely I agree that we should fast for 30 days during our summer (extremely/consistently hot) seasons. And if we have to suffer through this to complete this task then we can make it up by feeding someone in need for each day of fasting we miss.
As for a month being 30 days I've discussed this in other posts and shown how the Quran consistenly relates a month (shahrun) to 30 days.
The one case where it would seem it doesn't is not equalling the daily fasting to it's compensation but mentioning compensation for another act (being when separate from out wives out of enmity and animosity, even violently)For a site with this info you can go to
www.quranists.com and go to the link "Times for hajj and Ramadan"Godbless,
AnwarP.S. Shahru ramadaana is not possesive. Seconly shahrun does not mean full moon. This is not a definition of the word to be found in any dictionary. Lastly 1 full moon to another full moon is not a shahr if shahr just means full moon, which it doesn't. The only way to understand sharu ramadaan is as a pronunciation of shahrun ramadanan which would equal shah-run saifan. or A month in summer (time of constant or extreme heat).