The scorching full-moon (shahr ramadan) is here

truth

Peace Sister Myr,

Salam Truth,

Your demonstration or approach with 10 people=free slave=fast 3 days has also no basis, you can not come up with equation without any consistent demonstration behind it.

I wasn't attempting to establish a general formula or a linkage between these things but rather showing that if one attempts to link the time period of the fast given to a certain number of days then it is not valid. This is because there are disparate 'equivalences' depending on which verse one looks at.

Not only Verse 584 is the only verse linking the number of months to fast to the number of people to feed but you are completely ignoring the context of the two verses, in other words, you are comparing apples to bananas since "al-lagh'w fil iman" is not equivallent in importance to the "zihar" and that's why in the first case freeing a slave is compared to 3 days fasting and in the second case freeing a slave is absent. It is like you are trying to resolve an issue by using both an equation of first degree and another equation of second degree if you see my point!
Is there another verse that would link directly a number of months (not days) to fast to a number of poor to feed? Please let me know if I missed a verse.

Thank you. Myr.

It just so happens that 584 coincides with your preconceptions but this does not make it cannonical or the basis for a definition of a month. If you check the post I linked to you may see more discussion about this.

The point about 'degrees' is moot. If you want to play around with 'equivalences' then you cannot overlook the fact that both require the freeing of ONE prisoner

589 ---- ONE prisoner = Feed 10 people

584 ---- ONE prisoner = Feed 60 people

This 'equivalence' is clearly out by a factor of six.

You are merely cherry picking 584 as equating 2 months to the feeding of sixty people and by applying another formula of feed 1 person for 1 day of fasting making the conclusion of 2 months = Feed 60 people = 60 days fasting. I would argue that the type of fast is not comparable in each of these cases.

But the real problem is taking the > FEED 1 PERSON per DAY of FASTING < assumption. That requirement applies to the fasting of 'ramadan' described in chapter 2. It has nothing to do with the recompense of a crime as 589 and 584 both are.

As you can see in 589 the formula of > FEED 1 PERSON per DAY of FASTING < does NOT HOLD TRUE.

Therefore in 589 FEED 10 PEOPLE = 3 DAYS of FASTING.

So this assumption of > FEED 1 PERSON per DAY of FASTING < assumption that is being taken in 584 is false. It is merely because it fits your preconceptions that you are accepting it, despite the fact clear evidence exists in 589 that these equivalences cannot be drawn or assumed.

I hope you understand now.

Regards.

adley

Salaam all,

What is the "qur'anic month" (if any)?

=adley=

ayman

Peace all,

Yes and Ayman chose the meaning of "full-moon" among all the other meanings to give a sense to his theory on the "schorching full-moon". So while Ayman gives himself the freedom to chose, others are not allowed to consider any other meanings and of course are accused of conjecture when they don't go with his choice.

Unlike "full-moon", the meaning of "shahr" as "30 day period" is not given by Classical Arabic dictionaries so it is not one that Myr and AB CHOSE. It is one they CONJURED UP. Big difference!

Not only Ayman is ignoring what I wrote about "ma3doudatt", that is, a fixed/counted/defined/known number/count, but he shows us how a champion he is in manipulating the information others share with him so now in his own words "would be illogical if "ma3doudatt" meant "unlimited counted number"". Who said "unlimited"???

Once again, the defenders of sectarian preconceptions fail to see the implications of their own illogical assertions. 1000 is a fixed/counted/defined/known number/count. A MILLION is a fixed/counted/defined/known number/count. A BILLION is a fixed/counted/defined/known number/count... ETC. Since a fixed/counted/defined/known number/count CAN BE ANY NUMBER, this makes it UNLIMITED.

Now here is an experiment that people here can try with any native Arabic speaker.

Ask them, if I tell you "I am travelling and coming back in "ayam ma3doodat" (ana misafer wa sawf arja3 ba3d ayam ma3doodat), then what does this mean? Does it give you the impression that I am coming back in a fixed number of days, say a 1000, 100, or even 30 days?" They will say "Of course not! It means that you will come back in a few days."

Ironically, some people here boast about being "native Arabic speakers" but when it goes against their preconceptions, they choose to ignore what every native Arabic speaker on the planet knows about the word "ma3doodat" meaning "few".

this is a very bad tactics Brother that will lead you to nowhere and now Ayman is adding a new rule to give his theory more consistence a count less than or equal to 10 to "ma3'doudat" so from "few" we are not shifting to "counting" but it has to be up to 10 or less based on a verse (2196) that has absultly nothing to do with "ma3doudatt" but because the number 10 is mentioned so let's highjack it-) so why not other verses like 7142. Bringing verse 2196 proves how weak is Ayman's theory. Add to that, Ayman's analogy of "counting on fingers", of course people can not use their fingers to count up to 30 and that's how the "few" theory will advance and of course Ayman will not look at the verses where "qalillan" and "aqala'", "qalillun" are used.

This is not my theory or my analogy. It is that of Classical Arabic dictionaries. They clearly say that "ma3doodat" means "few" or "what can be counted of the fingers". They don't say "what can be counted on the fingers and toes and knuckles" . This is confirmed by passages such as 1220 where it clearly means few and 2196 where the count of 3+7 days is described as a "complete ten". Similarly in 7142, ten is described as "completing" a period. This is not surprising, we know from pre-quranic inscriptions that the pre-quranic Arabs used a base-10 counting system. So the great reading, the dictionaries, and archeological evidences all agree. It is also not surprising that it takes exactly 10 days for the full-moon to reach the crescent stage. So the crescent times the end of the fast.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Adley,

What is the "qur'anic month" (if any)?

Like the word "week", the word "month" doesn't occur in the great reading. The God never talks about manmade calendars. The God talks about natural cosmic phenomena.

Peace,

Ayman

noble

Peace Hi I am back from being Nabster to Noble... thanx to the admins
As always Ayman your arguments are pretty logical and powerful, and I am not going to refute you completely )
Now how about people living in the southern hemisphere, like South America and Australia, will their Ramadhan be different than than those in the northern hemisphere? If we use the logic of the scorched moon, and full moon for month counting, not only will we have two different fasting periods in the north and south, but this still does not resolve the problem for those living near the north pole where we cannot talk of days or nights, which is the same problem that is encountered with the system used by most muslims. (Not talking about when to start counting the months, not that does matter too much, please do not forget that these were all artificially imposed by rulers and policy makers).
The inescapable logical conclusion I think is that the Quran message relating to Ramadhan is localised to the region where it was revealed.
Comments please?
Salam
Noble 'aka' Nabster (in a previous life ) )

adley

Salaam Ayman,

Thanks for the input regarding "month" because frankly I haven't found a valid quranic definition of "month". So, I'm even more certain that "month" is a man-made time frame which The God does not have to use to spread His message.

By the way bro, what is your opinion of someone who is doing his shawm and lives in the northern hemisphere. But on the third day of shawm he must go to a country located on the southern hemisphere, say, to Indonesia. Does the shawm continue? My opinion is yes, because he had witnessed the phenomenon, even though no one in Indonesia is doing the shawm.

And regarding those who live in north pole, well, if they can't witness the phenomenon, then no shawm is requried for them. What do you think?

=adley=

Layth

Peace Ayman,

Two clarifications

Where were you able to obtain information that the full moon after the summer solistice is always red? The search I did gave me the indication that the red moon is the known name of the full moon in August which appears reddish as it rises (http//www.farmersalmanac.com/astronomy/fullmoonnames.html).
The crescent moons are used as the timing for Hajj. Yet, in your article you have stated that they indicate the end of Hajj, not its begining. I disagree with this undertsanding, simply because 2189 is quite clear in this being a begining (with the end being 3-10 days later, or two days at the earliest as per 2203). Hence, it would make more sence that the last Hajj of the year is the one that precedes the fasting, thus making it the Great Hajj as refererd to in chapter 9.

ayman

Peace Noble/Nabster,

It is good to see you back on the forum.

Peace Hi I am back from being Nabster to Noble... thanx to the admins
As always Ayman your arguments are pretty logical and powerful, and I am not going to refute you completely
Now how about people living in the southern hemisphere, like South America and Australia, will their Ramadhan be different than than those in the northern hemisphere?

You are absolutely right. Of course the scorching full-moon and the period of the fast is going to be different between the southern and northern hemisphere. It is logical that the restricted period is going to be different because we have to remember that the only restriction is on hunting wildlife. Since wildlife follows a solar cycle, they have different birthing seasons in the northern and southern hemispheres. So the hunting restriction must also be different.

If we use the logic of the scorched moon, and full moon for month counting, not only will we have two different fasting periods in the north and south, but this still does not resolve the problem for those living near the north pole where we cannot talk of days or nights, which is the same problem that is encountered with the system used by most muslims. (Not talking about when to start counting the months, not that does matter too much, please do not forget that these were all artificially imposed by rulers and policy makers).
The inescapable logical conclusion I think is that the Quran message relating to Ramadhan is localised to the region where it was revealed.
Comments please?

I disagree. The message of the great reading is universal even in the north/south poles. We have to remember that in latitudes above 60-65 degrees or so, the full-moon after the summer solstice is continuously below the horizon. So it cannot be witnessed as per 2185. Remember the fast is ONLY for those who witness the scorching full-moon. It is amazing that 2185 naturally and automatically excludes those in the extreme regions who would have to fast for close to 24 hours.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Adley,

Thanks for the input regarding "month" because frankly I haven't found a valid quranic definition of "month". So, I'm even more certain that "month" is a man-made time frame which The God does not have to use to spread His message.

By the way bro, what is your opinion of someone who is doing his shawm and lives in the northern hemisphere. But on the third day of shawm he must go to a country located on the southern hemisphere, say, to Indonesia. Does the shawm continue? My opinion is yes, because he had witnessed the phenomenon, even though no one in Indonesia is doing the shawm.

I agree with you. The witnessing is the key. This is logical from 2185.

And regarding those who live in north pole, well, if they can't witness the phenomenon, then no shawm is requried for them. What do you think?

I fully agree. You took the words right out of my mouth. D

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Layth,

Two clarifications

Where were you able to obtain information that the full moon after the summer solistice is always red?

The full-moons close to the summer solstice are always going be redder than other full-moons. To understand this, one must understand the reason for the red color, which is caused by light interference with the atmosphere when the moon is low above the horizon. Please see the following article

http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast14jun_1.htm

Here is an excerpt

"Anytime the Moon is full the Sun and the Moon are on opposite sides of the Earth. If one is high in the sky, as the Sun will be near the beginning of summer, the other must be low."

Of course the sun is at its highest point on the summer solstice. The full-moon after the summer solstice is special because in addition to being low, it also signals the beginning of the hottest time of the year. Heat and reddish glow are the two primary connotation of the word "ramadan"/scorching.

The search I did gave me the indication that the red moon is the known name of the full moon in August which appears reddish as it rises (http//www.farmersalmanac.com/astronomy/fullmoonnames.html).

There are two things to keep in mind. The first is that other cultures (such at the Indian tribes mentioned in the link you gave) didn't all use the Western calendar and the names of the full-moons corresponded to the seasons rather than to the Western calendar months. The second thing is that because of the procession of the equinox, the current Western calendar months do not correspond to the same seasons as in ancient times. For example, 1400-1500 years ago the summer solstice would have been around mid July and the scorching full-moon would have occurred in the late July ? mid August time frame. So an old name given at that time would reflect this. Please see

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_moon

Here is an excerpt

"Traditionally these names corresponded to the seasons rather than calendar months. So, for instance, the Egg Moon (the Full Moon before Easter) would always be the first moon after March 21st, and the Lenten Moon would always be the last moon on or before March 21st."

The crescent moons are used as the timing for Hajj. Yet, in your article you have stated that they indicate the end of Hajj, not its begining. I disagree with this undertsanding, simply because 2189 is quite clear in this being a begining (with the end being 3-10 days later, or two days at the earliest as per 2203). Hence, it would make more sence that the last Hajj of the year is the one that precedes the fasting, thus making it the Great Hajj as refererd to in chapter 9.

I apologize because when I read your comment, I took another look at the article and actually what is on the web site is an older version of the article. I had modified the paragraph where it is erroneously stated that "This gives people 4 opportunities per year to meet up for the "7ajj"/debate" as follows

"This is how the crescents provide timing for the "7aj"/debate. Moreover, the "7aj"/debate is a known counted days at the restriction "ash-hur"/full moons. They are the 10 days between the full moon and the crescent moon. The first full-moon of the restricted full-moons (the full moon of scorching heat/"ramadhan&quot is for abstinence while the remaining three full moons are for the debate. This gives people three opportunities per year to meet up for the "7ajj"/debate."

I would greatly appreciate it if you could update the article on the website accordingly.

In 2189 we are given a clear example in relation to crescent moons. We are told that we should enter the houses from their obvious front door and not from the back. Of course, there is nothing wrong with exiting from the back. Which do you think is the obvious front door, the obvious full-moon or the unobvious crescent?

If we look at all the occurrences of the word "mawaqeet"/"myqat", we can clearly see that it can indicate the end of something

And We appointed for Moussa thirty nights, and We completed with ten thus was completed the timing ("myqat&quot of his Lord, forty nights...

Notice that in 7142, The God could have just said 40 nights instead of 30 and then completing with 10 to complete the "myqat". These are not unnecessary extra words but they are hinting at two things. The first is that 10 completes the count and the second is that the fulfillment of the "myqat" is at its end not its beginning. So the crescents time the end not the beginning of "al-hajj" (the annual fair).

In 2189, we are told that the crescents do not only time "al-hajj" (the annual fair) but they also serve generally as a timing device. It is not a coincidence that it takes ten nights for the full-moon to reach the crescent stage. So in addition to "al-hajj" (the annual fair), the crescent also times the end of the fast and it even times mundane things such as the waiting period for a woman whose husband has died (2234).

I look forward to hearing more of your insightful comments.

Peace,

Ayman

arnoldyasin

Peace Ayman,

AB was talking that the 'verbs' doesn't fit for scorching full moon. I would like your opinion as i believe this has nothing to do with if full moon fits or not

I actually went to bed then the verse hit me so i turned on my laptop to post it, it is similar to Samia example and we will see that the verb to be "Kana" can't be ommitted,

they perform the vow and fear a day whereof the evil is wide-spreading,

(7)

See how it came at the end of the verse and the "Kana" can't be ommitted, this should demolish "Sharun Ramdanun" silly claim that it means the scorchng full moon

Good night all

noble

Peace Ayman,
Thank you for welcoming me back.
What I meant by localised was generic, meaning that Ramadhan was linked to where it was witnessed, which you agreed with.
This will also not contradict the fact that the Quran was revealed in the month of Ramadhan for that area of the world where and when Muhammad lived.
I believe that the Quran is very ingeniously written to account for all these matters that have to do with dates, this is why it is so very important that not only we self reference it with itself when we try to understand it, but also that we do not take things out of context pertaining to the particular people it was being revealed to initially, such as Allat, Mannat and Uzzah, the entering of houses from the front instead of the back, and the edicts to do with spoils of war, etc...
Also if my memory is good, the Restricted months also have to do with not waging wars or battles between tribes...
Allah knows best
Salam
Noble
PS I am quite relaxed about the debate on Ramadhan because due to a medical condition, I cannot fast, however it is very important we get it right!

ayman

Peace Arnold,

AB was talking that the 'verbs' doesn't fit for scorching full moon. I would like your opinion as i believe this has nothing to do with if full moon fits or not

I actually went to bed then the verse hit me so i turned on my laptop to post it, it is similar to Samia example and we will see that the verb to be "Kana" can't be ommitted,

they perform the vow and fear a day whereof the evil is wide-spreading,

(7)

See how it came at the end of the verse and the "Kana" can't be ommitted, this should demolish "Sharun Ramdanun" silly claim that it means the scorchng full moon
Good night all

Firstly, AB builds his faulty argument on the passage being an example where the verb in the past tense cannot be omitted. He doesn't really have a point as one can easily say the sentence without the "kana". In Arabic one can say

"yakhafoon yawman kana sharh mostatiran" or "yakhafoon yawman sharh mostatiran". People will understand the second expression just fine.

In fact, the Kana here is not really for the past tense since it actually relates to a future event. It is a device for indicating that this will surely happen in the future. In other words, it will happen for certain as if the event has already passed.

Secondly, AB is arguing (if one can call it that) against Anwar's own faulty argument, which as far as I can tell relies on case endings (I haven't had a chance to read all of it). Two faults don't make a correct.

In Arabic, case endings have very low functional load as the meaning can be easily figured out from the context. Also, many passages in the great reading sound awkward with the case endings, for example Chapter 55. Thus, listen to any recitation of Chapter 55. Even the staunchest supporters of case endings regularly recite it without case endings. Even the consonantal text of the great reading exhibits complete disregard of case endings in several places (569, 4162, 2177). This internal evidence from the great reading plus the fact that case endings do not appear in manuscripts of the great reading until a few hundred years later (9th-10th century CE) has led many linguists to conclude that Arabic at the time when the great reading was descended didn't have case endings.

Our friend Anwar, like many Arabic scholars before him, have fallen into the trap of romanticizing bedouin life and supposed hyper-accurate language. I have spoken to bedouins and I can tell you first hand that they don't speak any more or less accurately or eloquently than any other person by virtue of living in the desert. There is no evidence that bedouins of the past were more intelligent or intellectual than those of the present so I doubt that the situation was any different in the past.

By attributing to those super-bedouins what is essentially a pretentious hyper-accurate speech, the Arabic linguists of the past have made many illogical assertions. For example, those same classical linguists believed that Classical Arabic existed since the beginning of time and that ancient people such as Abraham and Ishmael spoke Classical Arabic.

Also, if you read Classical Arabic dictionaries, they often try to attribute the original meaning of Arabic words to bedouins despite the fact that many of those words were borrowed from languages that are much older than Arabic. For example, they attribute the origin of "katab" (write) to bedouins joining the nostrils of a Camel when we know for a fact that the word kitab, 'book, letter', is actually of Aramaic origin. It is also mentioned in Lihyanite inscriptions (W. Caskel, Lihyan und Lihyanisch) and this root is also attested in the name of the North Arabian deity Alkutbay/Hanaktab. Alkutbay was the Arabian scribe deity. Given that Aramaic and Lihyanite are older languages than Arabic, it is impossible that the Arab bedouin meaning is the original meaning.

Thus, it is not surprising that Anwar falls into the trap of making Arabic this super-unique language. For example, he asserts that only Arabic exhibits the phenomenon of Tajweez (joining of words in pronunciation). However, such Tajweez can be found in almost all languages, especially informal colloquial speech. For example, "what is up?" is rendered as "wassup?" in informal street talk. His observation, confirms the fact that Arabic was not a formal language at the time of the great reading's descent but was an informal language of the common people. Anwar's observation inadvertently supports the argument against case endings.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Noble,

Thank you for welcoming me back.
What I meant by localised was generic, meaning that Ramadhan was linked to where it was witnessed, which you agreed with.
This will also not contradict the fact that the Quran was revealed in the month of Ramadhan for that area of the world where and when Muhammad lived.
I believe that the Quran is very ingeniously written to account for all these matters that have to do with dates, this is why it is so very important that not only we self reference it with itself when we try to understand it, but also that we do not take things out of context pertaining to the particular people it was being revealed to initially, such as Allat, Mannat and Uzzah, the entering of houses from the front instead of the back, and the edicts to do with spoils of war, etc...
Also if my memory is good, the Restricted months also have to do with not waging wars or battles between tribes...
PS I am quite relaxed about the debate on Ramadhan because due to a medical condition, I cannot fast, however it is very important we get it right!

You see this is the point. I know that things such as Allat, AlUzza and Manat are all as relevant today as they were 1400-1500 years ago. In fact, if it wasn't for The God guiding me to their continued relevance, I wouldn't have understood many things in the great reading a lot better

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman2.htm

Nothing is irrelevant in the great reading. Everything is somehow related to each and everyone of us.

May The God healing and mercy be with you.

Peace,

Ayman

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Ayman, thank you again for your excellent scientific approach.

noble

Bro Ayman
Peace
I fully agree with you.
I have had a hard time in the past with Scholars / Muslims whose sole argument to convince me of something was to use fear that I will go to Hell if I were not to understand what they wanted me to understand the way they wanted me to understand or follow what they wanted me to follow. I would not have minded if they used common sense and logic to convince me, but threats, especially fabricated ones, I could not agree. I can take it from my Creator directly in the Quran though.
I really do commend you for your efforts, and you have almost convinced me on Ramadhan being witnessed as the beginning of the full moon just before the summer solstice.
It does seem to make sense...
Also as I said, this does not contradict the fact that the Quran was revealed in Ramadhan using as reference the area of the world it was revealed in and the time, which is very precise now, in a month which is at the beginning of the full moon just before the summer solstice where it was revealed, instead of having that month shifting backwards by ten days every year in that same area of the world.
May Allah guides you further in your quest for the truth
Salam
Noble

ayman

Peace bother Noble,

It is actually the full-moon after the summer solstice.

May The God guides all of us further in our quest for the truth.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

ayman

Peace brother Arnold,

Ayman, thank you again for your excellent scientific approach.

Thank you for your kindness and for alertly bringing any relevant issues to the discussion.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

noble

Peace Bro Ayman,
I thought the summer soltice was around the 25th of July? Anyways I am not too much into geography, and you did a thorough research I gather...
Anyways so just after the summer solstice...
Thanks
Salam
Noble
PS Dudes I am so ignorant, summer solstice is around 21st of June... Lesson, search before you talk... silly me

marie

Peace brother Ayman, all,

What do you think about the reading of 2185 in this way

"shahr ramadhan" in which 1) the reading was descended as a guidance for people 2) and clarifications from the guidance and 3) the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it (it the nignt in which one witnesses "shahr ramadhan" is the first night of the abstinence) . And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And 4) so complete the count And 5) magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.

I hope my cartography is clear.

peace