Kaaba at Jerusalem and not at Mecca
-
I find it strange that members of this forum do not give much credence to Brother Ayman?s findings that the Kaaba is situated at Jerusalem and not at Mecca. They bump into a thing called ?Arab conspiracy?, and they can?t think of a way over this barrier, and so things are left to idle. Even Brother Ayman himself seems to be confounded by the Arab conspiracy problem and is toying with strategies to overcome it.
But why must there be a conspiracy involved? Conspiracy is a very short term thing, and it usually does not cross lifetimes. When it does, like between families sworn against each other for revenge, or mutual ascendancy, it is then called a feud, but after a few generations the original conspiracy is forgotten and deeper issues take hold of the matter, like ancestral rights, conflicting interests, clashing faiths, and so on.
In the case of Mecca being claimed by the Ummayads in the place of Jerusalem, it seems extremely strange to us that not a trace of this fraud is left. Some of the mystery dissolves when we observe that the original community of the Prophet was wiped out to the man by the usurping Meccans in the Battle of Karbala in 684, and we all know that history is written by the victors, and Mohammed became Meccan in the process. This provides an answer to three of Edip Yuksel?s question, ?When??, ?Who?? and ?Why?? But he also asks a fourth question, and this is the brunt of the matter. He asks, ?How did the conspiracy succeed so comprehensively?? One answer to this is ?Hadith?. If Hadith began to be written immediately after the Prophet?s death then the truth about Jerusalem and the Qibla would have been impossible to erase. But the prophet?s injunction not to write down Hadith carried force through three centuries, and not even the barbarians of Mecca had the courage to overcome it until after such a long stretch. 300 years is long enough to bury a truth which is as fundamental as concerning the hometown of the Prophet and the Qibla. Remember that the situation is this, that the original Moslem Ummah has been wiped out, and barbarians have taken over the Deen as a political ideology towards empire. Mecca is chosen as the new Qibla, and on the strength of this fundamental fraud a religion is propagated throughout the world that is the complete antithesis of Islam. 200 years of such empire-building, and finally the Hadiths are allowed to be written. Of course such Hadith will record nothing about Jerusalem, and will make the Meccan foundation a palpable reality.
But still we ask, why not a trace, why not a trace? Surely somebody somewhere must have protested, and such a protest is hard to smother. The person may be removed, but the protest itself must have lived on. It could be that the protest shunned the political way and adopted the mystical one instead. The Sufis are the bearers of that original protest. It is plain to see that wherever Islam dug roots into the hearts of people there is veneration of the Sufi saints, and every particular detail of their faith derives from this veneration, and owes next to nothing from the scholars of Damascus and Baghdad. The true Deen took the way of the heart, and found berth in the common heart, and this despite the corrupted religion coming forth from Empire. Look to history and you don?t see it. But talk to the heart of the common man and you hear a different story. The common man doesn?t concern himself with the Qibla too much, for much of his religious devotion is contributed to the local shrine of a Sufi saint.
But the most important factor towards erasure is the Vedic connection, and the subconscious denial of it which prevails throughout the Moslem world, and in fact beyond it and throughout the Western hemisphere. Denial results in only a more vigorous confirmation, for it is not possible to deny one?s root and very essence. Thus the Jews deviate from the message of Moses and set themselves up as a Brahmanical caste, chosen of Yahweh. The Christians forget the good news of salvation brought by Jesus, and instead put him up as part of Trimurti. Not only this but they enter the Tantrical realm where God is sacrificed for the sake of man. The Moslems disobey Mohammed and revert to their previous Tantric practices, and in the process come to fulfil the corrupt Christian mission of bringing forth the Son of Man (the devil child). In the realm of the mlecchas this is the overriding thrust throughout history. It is the denial and erasure of Sanatana Dharma, which leads to the unrecognised adoption of Tantra. Only when you come to observe how the danavas of the West are out to kill Truth, and you appreciate the enormous momentum of this Juggernaut, will you understand how the truth of Jerusalem was wiped away from every memory.
Peace
-
Salam,
This is not enough to prove your suspicions...
Your argument is flawed in the fact that you have offered no evidence to purport the validity of Jerusalem being the Qiblah in the first place. All you have are theories backed up with no evidence, so perhaps the question you should be asking yourself is, why have the suspicion in the first place?
And if you mean to reply to this with evidence then you are surely contradicting your original post.
And, why all the Hindu connotations?
-
As salamu alaykum wr wb.
Respectfully.Welcome to the forum, brother.
Interesting article you posted.
As always, a man must check the Qur'an and verify. Every nation has history and sometimes people tend to change the history in order tosuit their future.Always check the Qur'an and verify every information you get.
As salamu alaykum.
-
Peace,
Ayman never said the kaaba is in jerusalem, that is layth who says this. Ayman and myself believe the kaaba is not a building, ka'ab means base and here refers to the base of the Deen. The House of Abraham which he build is the Deen, the system of God.
-
Peace,
Ayman never said the kaaba is in jerusalem, that is layth who says this. Ayman and myself believe the kaaba is not a building, ka'ab means base and here refers to the base of the Deen. The House of Abraham which he build is the Deen, the system of God.
Kiblah could be else where, even in my country Indonesia, if the Rasul is emerged from here.
Jesus had managed to resize Bayt Allah from Romanians - as been told in Bible - means that Jesus had been a successfull Rasul in establishing deen (QS.42/13, 61/14), it is collided to Christian believe that Jesus never won against Romanians.
-
Peace Al-Quraishi
So you do not harbour suspicions at all? You know that the traditional Moslem is wrong, but you think that there are still things that he does right? What can we take from the rituals of the trad that is authentic and thus to our benefit? The praying of five times a day towards Mecca, which is not in the Quran? Pilgrimage to Mecca with stacks of formalities, none of which are in the Quran? If it appeared to me that those rituals were benefiting the trads themselves, ie it was making them spiritually aware, then that is proof that goes a long way, for what better proof then that of example? But the proof seems to point to the other way, and so there is every ground for suspicion.
Now, if you found out that you?ve been told a lie, then you want to know the truth too. Natural.
Fabian
-
Peace arnoldyasin
What?s all this business about Hajj in the mind, Salat in the mind, Kaaba in the mind, Deen in the mind? Of course it?s in the mind, but we had to crawl to it with our hands and feet, no? Look here, you are arguing, right? You use words, numbers, punctuation, sentences, concepts, and so on. You first came to these by fumbling toys in the kindergarten, by investigating real objects in the real world, by testing your concepts on real people, until finally you have enough mental equipment to launch yourself on your philosophical career. Or do you want to tell me that you were born with impressionable hard-disks, and your parents input into them all the necessary data towards philosophizing? You can?t say it?s just your thinking brain and the Quran and nothing else. The Quran part we trust, but your thinking brain, no, we have a problem with that. Even if the Quran managed to transmit all its data into that brain, in direct binary format, we would still have a problem with it.
No, we come to the truth of the Quran by crawling over real reference points, and our kindergarten toys are among them. But I thought this ?mind, mind? thing was dead due to the failure of the great Western experiment in humanism. What gives you the drive to pick it up again?
Fabian
-
Peace fabian
i have seen christians put forth the very same arguement as to why its ok to pray to a dead jesus on a cross or the cross itself. Afterall the object leads to God right? Its just a kindergarden toy right?
-
Peace arnoldyasin
What?s all this business about Hajj in the mind, Salat in the mind, Kaaba in the mind, Deen in the mind? Of course it?s in the mind, but we had to crawl to it with our hands and feet, no? Look here, you are arguing, right? You use words, numbers, punctuation, sentences, concepts, and so on. You first came to these by fumbling toys in the kindergarten, by investigating real objects in the real world, by testing your concepts on real people, until finally you have enough mental equipment to launch yourself on your philosophical career. Or do you want to tell me that you were born with impressionable hard-disks, and your parents input into them all the necessary data towards philosophizing? You can?t say it?s just your thinking brain and the Quran and nothing else. The Quran part we trust, but your thinking brain, no, we have a problem with that. Even if the Quran managed to transmit all its data into that brain, in direct binary format, we would still have a problem with it.
No, we come to the truth of the Quran by crawling over real reference points, and our kindergarten toys are among them. But I thought this ?mind, mind? thing was dead due to the failure of the great Western experiment in humanism. What gives you the drive to pick it up again?
Fabian
Peace,
Fabian i suggest to investigate the arabic and Quranic uses more before give such examples, and especialy investigate somebodies ideas on the forum before you 'accuse' him of certain ideas. For one, did i say everything is in the mind? No, and by thus it is baseless what you are saying here.
The reference of "Ka'ab" is a linguistic one, and not what you are implying. It means 'base' in arabic, nothing more. Hajj i believe is not 'in the mind' at all, i don't understand what you are implying. Hajj means literally 'debate' and refers to a convention where the whole of mankind is involved to discuss global issues. The Quran is a book to guide mankind to the highest form possible, and religious concepts as pilgrimage to a certain place will not make humankind progress. Hajj is physical, but not in the way of a pilgrimage.
Salaat means literally 'following closely' as '2 horses in a race were the second horse is catching up the first one'. It refers to contact with God through prayer, physical, but also to follow the Revelation closely day and night. So to create the Deen. It has multiple ways of meanings inside the Quran.
Deen is as much in the mind as in the physical world, they are intertwined. When the Deen is estabilished in the mind, it will affect the physical world. As the Deen must rule in government rule, personal conduct, communication and media as tv, radio, books and magazines, in food consumption, handling of the earth and nature, approach to science and its limits.
So dear fabian, what did i pick up? Next time please read more posts of a person before you 'accuse' him of thinking in a certain way. You're now on a journey that slowly will make your mind more open. Most minds are still in need of 'rituals' and believing the All-pervading God will demand 'rituals' to honour Him. The Quran is the Guidance for mankind, and it must be approached as such, not as a religious book of personal salvation, but as the only way mankind will ever find peace on earth and Self-realisation. Rituals as pilgrimage are based on personal salvation, and can never be the safehaven for the WHOLE mankind as Hajj is described in the Quran. Without the right approach, veils will still cover your mind, how much people believe in God and Quran alone. Salaat-prayer and abstinence are for our mental training using physical means, and are not religious rituals, but spiritual and psychological ones, to create peacefull mindstates and strong mental states so to create the best individuals to create and uphold the Deen.
The Quran is to show the best personal conduct and that of society, giving the best advice and the only Laws that will save humanity and create the best society. No ritual can create this.....
Peace
-
Peace arnoldyasin
Quote
Most minds are still in need of 'rituals' and believing the All-pervading God will demand 'rituals' to honour Him.This needs correction. All minds are always needing rituals and believing the All-pervading God will demand rituals to honour Him. Do you claim not to need rituals? Oh Arnold, give that thinking head of yours a rest!!! It seems to be a very muscular one, and reminds me of another Arnold, whose muscles were elsewhere. Now Arnold Schwarzenegger has given his muscles a well-deserved rest and is now applying his efforts otherwise.
The things that you say have outstanding truth in them. The way to describe the inner essence of Hajj, Salat, Kaaba and Deen contains essential truth. But it seems that you are not addressing the person in front of you, but another audience, a very crude and fanatic audience, that which cries ?Blasphemy!? the moment you deviate the slightest from tradition. The person in front of you is saying, ?Yes, yes, we know all that, but let?s move on please.? We are clear at to what the inner meaning is, now please show us the outer form. Yes, I can read the implication. There will be great conventions on the future where enlightened discussions on God take place, and prayer houses with all the baggage of idolatry taken away, and a new set of rituals for prayers that are in keeping with the Quran. But where is all this to come from. From the Quran and our thinking head? It?s that Quran and our busy head once more! No, truth must have a physical form too, and we must reach to it, clutch it, and then find our way back to its vast haven within. The Quran guides us there, not to flights inside the mind.
At one point you?ll have to come down, Arnold. But I admire your tenacity in trying to correct the mistake of the masses.
Fabian
-
Peace arnoldyasin
Quote
Most minds are still in need of 'rituals' and believing the All-pervading God will demand 'rituals' to honour Him.This needs correction. All minds are always needing rituals and believing the All-pervading God will demand rituals to honour Him. Do you claim not to need rituals? Oh Arnold, give that thinking head of yours a rest!!! It seems to be a very muscular one, and reminds me of another Arnold, whose muscles were elsewhere. Now Arnold Schwarzenegger has given his muscles a well-deserved rest and is now applying his efforts otherwise.
Peace,
Saying dumb things while trying to look smart D You have every day rituals and rituals like marriage, but this is completly different from personal salvation rituals dear fabian. And yes, the immature mind will think a divinity demands rituals. Why? Because of the of the background of our civilations. It has to do with the God's image people have taken over from our ancestors. You will still see 70% of the world performing a ritual to gain something. It is not because they have an inner need for this, it is because they were taught divinities demand this. This has to do with mass-image. People approach the Quran in the same way, believing God needs rituals, but they will fall into many contradictions and by thus had to create hundreds of hadiths to compensate. The Muslims after Muhammed, didn't only fall back into old arab rituals, most of the interpretation were done by Christians, Jews and Persians who all believed God demanded rituals to be honoured. They have created the Islam that is now, a ritualistic one. And still a lot of upholders of the Quran use this approach. They're not following the Quran alone at all, because they haven't approached the Quran with a clear mind, it is still full of secterian ideas of what certain concepts mean.
They are still sunni or shi? in their subconciousness, and will approach the Quran as such. You see their minds evolving slowly, accepting truth little by little, like what you did, seeing Mecca was nonsense, and accepted the possibility it was Jerusalem, but you have only moved the ritual to another place. You need to move the pre-programmed ideas on God and purpose of excistence and the purpose of the Quran.The things that you say have outstanding truth in them. The way to describe the inner essence of Hajj, Salat, Kaaba and Deen contains essential truth. But it seems that you are not addressing the person in front of you, but another audience, a very crude and fanatic audience, that which cries ?Blasphemy!? the moment you deviate the slightest from tradition.
Yes? So? Never deviade from telling the Truth how much they don't like it.
The person in front of you is saying, ?Yes, yes, we know all that, but let?s move on please.? We are clear at to what the inner meaning is, now please show us the outer form.
The outer form is inside the Quran, why need people when you have the Book of God? But there have been some good articles written on this already. I agree with Layth's article on Salaat-prayer, Dr.Shabbir explains in a good way how the Debate is organised, and the different usage of the word Salaat when you read his translation. Ayman has made an outstanding analysis of the Fast. So the outer form is explained too, but you only need to gather the Quran verses and study the arabic words used.
At one point you?ll have to come down, Arnold. But I admire your tenacity in trying to correct the mistake of the masses.
I wonder why you said this. On what thoughts it were formed to make such a remark as it doesn't make sense to me at all. My tendicy to correct the masses is demanded in the Quran, but the coming down? hmmm please explain as till now you have been only blabbering a lot. Maybe you mean i go to fast for the crowd to understand? It seems you have only read a little on the discussions which were already held here, and some articles. So your demand of the outer form is already out there, but i guess you missed it. Be more patience in your dealings brother, as your 'outcry' to me that i should explain the outer forms, which it seems you demand if i interpretate your post correct, was unneccesary if you would have researched a bit more. I don't mind explaining to you were you can find them if it is needed.
Also i urge you to focus on the subjects and don't make personal remarks as this is not purpose of this forum, because your whole post could have been squeezed into one sentence "But Arnold, we need to know the outer form too, and not just the core you explained." And i would have said; "dear Fabian, there already have been written a lot on this, clearly you have missed it, no problem, here are some tips." You see how easy such things are?
Peace
-
lol! rotfl yay
Peace guys you make me laugh,
This is like asking the devil for salvation.
How can someone who cannot accept that Hell and Paradise are physical can be taken seriously, or even be engaged with in a debate...
Arnold you do not realise the damage you are doing by advocating such non-sense...
You are such a silly individual, having silly interpretations, with silly psychological filters based on silly premises...
Shame on you...
Thus I spake... -
Easy noble. Even though i dont agree with everything that arnie says,i believe he makes much more sense than the 'phsyical heaven and hell' people,who engage in rituals of little practical benefit....
-
Are you feminine noble? Anyway,im just saying who i feel has more of a grip on practical wisdom....I dont deny religion has some benefits,but only if taken with a pinch or sack of salt!!! D
-
Yeah right... like alcohol.
enquirer I can see you have deep oedipian issues...
And you would not be here if you had no doubts about your ways. At least you have the decency to acknowledge that you are an atheist.
The dangerous ones are those who claim to be believers, but like the wolf in sheep's clothes are there to spread doubts and strife among the faithful... -
Easy noble. Thanks for the compliment,and no thanks for the long distance/virtual reality psychotherapy!!! ) D muscle muscle muscle handshake group
ps; maybe you need a drink!!!!!!!!!!
