Kaaba at Jerusalem and not at Mecca

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Salam Layth

I was not ready to debate the subject with you as I understand how hard you believe in it and consequently how hard it will be for you not to believe in it

First off, please note I have no issue debating this or any topic as...My loyalty is to Gods words and not to tradition or opinion. Hence, if Timbuktu was proven to be the location of Gods Restricted Temple, then I would be one of the first to hear & obey (God willing).

Cool mate, likewise here regarding hearing and obeying, there is no doubt that this is my intension however I may be slightly wrong to flag you alone of insisting on your understanding, I guess it mostly apply to everyone including myself, so what I was trying to do is simply save both of us time for now until we have enough time to do it, sorry for not expressing what I wanted to say well.

I believe 2145 is strong enough to absolutely not to worry about all the other information you mentioned, however and to be honest, I noticed a couple of minor flaws in your article and deliberately didn?t discuss them because as I stated I was not ready to debate the matter with you.

If you care not to worry about any of the other information provided on the subject, then you are not being an objective researcher

Again I mis expressed myself, what I meant that I cared at the start until I realized what 2145 is saying hence it will totally demolish other arguments, I only concentrated on the Qiblah because that is what 2145 is solely talking about.

I?m not really sure what the definition of an objective researcher is, however I?m not a full time researcher but when I research I?m sure that I do my best to be as objective as I can, with the Quran researches though, I?m only restricted to use the Quran as the main and only source of my researches to understand the Quran. I only use other material in the Quran debates if needed to , for my ownslef I only use the Quran I donlt even use the hadith.

...2145 has been answered clealry,

I don?t think it has been answered by you claiming by that they follow different Qiblah and they all in the same vicinity of possibly 5 x 5 sq km, as well you only provided hearsay and I responded with hearsay to it and yet has more hearsay to add but waiting for some available time, my hearsay clearly showed that the dome of the rock is the focal point for the Jews.

yet you are refusing to go down the path that it is sufficient because it would mean you have to examine the other data on Mecca which will draw you to where I know many do not want to tread, that Mecca is a location that has nothing to do with Islam.

Well, I?m, not refuting anything, I spent about 6 hours reading your article as slow as I can, as well read Ayman?s article more the once before, however I thought yours have merit because Ayman concept of Al Masjid Al Haram totally makes no sense to me, that is why it is my pleasure to discuss your article with you, I hardly mentioned Mecca as you have seen, possibly a couple of times when I said the history suggest so and so, but never ever even said that Al Masjid Al Haram is in Mecca however it is now about time for me to say so, what I was doing was showing clearly that Al Masjid Al Haram can?t be in Jerusalem and when this is confirmed then we can look for the location of Al Masjid Al Haram.which as far as I believe is near Mecca

However for you to say that Mecca ahas nothing to do with Islam while almost the whole world is saying Mecca has everything to do with Islam, is very unfounded and very weak argument, Mecca was mentioned in the Quran, ?Be Batn Mecca? as you know, and obviously Batn here is an indication that the fight was in a Valley.

The place of the Restricted Temple is called Baca (not Mecca).

Not a compelling evidence despite I agree that there is a place somewhere in Palestine called Beca, because Allah still may be referring to Mecca ?sounds very similar names to me?

Brother, we do not deal in may-be when it comes to Gods system...Either we know or we dont...God tells us the name of the location where the Restricted Temple was erected is called Baca.

Well, there are many others who say Beca is also Meca, so your words is against them, however with the other evidences in place what they say is far more plausible than what you say

That is enough of a clue to get people to re-exmine a place they all flock to. Ask yourself why, even though it has been clearly revealed in the Quran, people still insist to call the location where they think the Restricted Temple is by another name Mecca.

I really don?t know why they do that, however if I consider this a corruption then that is a plausible corruption due to the human flaws, it does not take Mecca away though from the position the whole world recognise it as, also it seems you seek evidences from other sources in addition to the Quran which on my side had to do the same to respond to your non quranic evidences, however I always wondered why someone like you totally turn a blind eye on the info regarding Al Masjid Al Haram in the Hadith and accept it from other humans?, do you think all that hadith about Al Masjid Al Haram are corrupt? And if so then why not the other sources you bring evidences from may be corrupt as well?

You say the words sound very similar, yet, I say that we are looking for perfect fit here, especially that many would argue that Mecca is already mentioned in 4824-25 as being a place where opposition to the prophet was made and where he had to subdue them before being able to make his way to the Restricted Temple (i.e. Mecca was a place which gave opposition to the prophet, but was not where his destination was).

It is exactly as Allah referred to Mohammad as (Mohammad and Ahmad,) why you don?t need a perfect match here for the prophecy stated by Jesus about Ahmad?, what I?m sure of , towns and humans can be referred to using many names.

Regarding the war, I think we will need to look thoroughly the verses again in sura 48

24- And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca after He had given you victory over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do.
25- It is they who disbelieved and turned you away from the Sacred Mosque and (turned off) the offering withheld from arriving at its destined place; and were it not for the believing men and the believing women, whom, not having known, you might have trodden down, and thus something hateful might have afflicted you on their account without knowledge-- so that Allah may cause to enter into His mercy whomsoever He pleases; had they been widely separated one from another, We would surely have punished those who disbelieved from among them with a painful punishment.

27- Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.

(24)
(25)

(27)

-> Verse 24, we can clearly read that the war in the valley of Mecca was a peaceful one ?And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca after He had given you victory over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do., now I wonder if Mecca is a few thousands km away from Jerusalem, what the fight in Mecca has to do with it exactly?, we read in the following verse, Allah is telling us about those kafiroon whom the Muslim were fighting in the Valley of Mecca

-> Verse 25, , here we go one of the main mischief those kafiroon were doing was to turn the Muslims away from Al Masjid Al Haram ?It is they who disbelieved and turned you away from the Sacred Mosque and (turned off) the offering withheld from arriving at its destined place; ?

Now I wonder how some kafiroon living a few thousands km away from Jerusalem managed to turn the Muslims away from Al Masjid Al Haram that suppose to be in Jerusalem?, does not make any sense to me mate.

How come, I liberate a town by winning a war in another town a few thousands km away?, it does not make any sense to me again

-> Verse 27-, surely that war in Batn Mecca was near Al Masjid Al Haram not thousands of Km away, that is why Allah is telling us about Al Masjid Al Haram in verse 27 as well, that the victory in Mecca was a promise that was fulfilled and is related to Al Masjid Al Haram ?Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory.

unknownuser

Let?s look at some non quranic evidences that Mecca is Becca and it is in the desert of Paran

"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

Hagar was an Arab, Abraham had Ishmael from her, who was 13 years older than Issac. After Sarah, Abraham's wife gave birth to Issac, Abraham decided to let Hagar and her son Ishmael go. He sent to the desert of Arabia in the region of Paran according to the Bible. I know that you deny that Ibrahim was married to two however all the historical evidences suggest that he was and you provided no evidences that he married only one.

Then GOD Almighty promised Ishmael that from him, He will increase his numbers and make from him a great nation, the Arab nation;

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan--that is, in the Arabah--opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab.

From the above Bible evidence there is no doubt that the desert of Paran is in Saudi Arabia, now the conquering of Mecca was actually prophesised in the Bible as well

Prophet Idris prophesised of the conquering of Mecca

And Enoch also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

"And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran, and he came with ten thousands of saints from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

According to Islam's history, when Mohammad and his followers faced hostility from the people of Mecca, they had to leave the city. They fled to the City of "Yathrib" which was called later "Madina" (here is a city known by two names) where Mohammad spread Islam to all of the Arabs and then later to the countries near by.

Baca = Place of the Temple (396)

I agree

Mecca = Place which was subdued due to the rejection/opposition of its people (4824-25)

I agree and Allah is told us in 425 why the Muslims were fighting those kafiroon in Mecca, because they turned the Muslims away from Al Masjid Al Haram, now the common sense say that Al Masjid Al Haram must be in the vicinity of Mecca and that is why the war was there, and in 427 that victory in Mecca was a prophecy that came to pass which includes entering Al Masjid Al Haram in peacefully

Now, back to my question If Mecca is the same as Beca, then why has it not taken that name for 1,400 years?

Well, this is totally human issues that can not stop the compelling logic in the Quran regarding the fight and the conquering of Mecca then entering Al Masjid Al Haram, however a similar question can be asked to you, if Beca is the where the House of Allah is, why in all those years we hardly know a city called Beca?

God say`s the Maqam is a sign that is inside the Bayt/Temple. Yet, you say they moved the Maqam and placed it outside, thus disrupting a sign that was given from God!

Actually the word ??, ?Fi?, does not have to always mean ?inside?, in fact it can be used to represent a whole entity i.e. the Bayt is a clear Ayah of Maqam Ibrahim, here is an example from the Quran regarding the word ?Fi? that does not mean ?inside?

He said This is my staff I recline on it and I beat the leaves with it to make them fall upon my sheep, and I have other uses for it.

(1

-> The verse is talking about Moses staff, Moses said ?I recline on it and I beat the leaves with it to make them fall upon my sheep?, then he added ? ?, ? Wa Lia Fiha Maarb Aukhra?, ?and I have other uses for it.?, see the word Fiha can easily mean something else BUT not ?inside?, in 2018 above the word can never mean ?inside? indeed otherwise it will make no sense, therefore in 397 the word ?Fihi? does not really have to be ?inside? rather the whole Bayt is providing many signs to us one of those signs is Maqam Ibrahim , i.e. Ibrahim Aqam that Bayt, i,e, Ibrahim was the founder of that Bayt and the whole Bayt is a sign for that..

Here is another couple of examples where the word ?Fi? in no way can mean ?inside?

5- And cattle He has created for you (men) from them ye derive warmth, and numerous benefits, and of their (meat) ye eat.
6- And there is beauty in them for you when you drive them back (to home), and when you send them forth (to pasture).

(5)
(6)

Now you go on to say that it is not the Kaaba that is the Temple, but the whole area built by the Saudi government around it? How many kilometeres does the Temple extend to? What book are you using to judge by?

Well, the evidences so far for the last 1400 years confirm that the Kabba is the first bayt of Allah on earth, it is in a secured city unlike Jerusalem as well it is open 24 hours a day 365 days a year for anyone to stop by and pray around it, again unlike the Doom of the Rock, also the conquering of Mecca that was mentioned in the Quran and the relation of it to A Masjid Al harm is far more compelling to me, in addition to that the clear order to Mohammad not to follow Ahl Al Kitab Qiblah, as well the place where Ibrahim dropped his wife and baby son was an uncultivated VALLEY NOT A CLTIVATED HILL

My main book is the Quran, but I will accept any other evidence from any other source that does not contradict the Quran and so far the evidences I presented never ever contradict that Al Masjid Al Haram is near the Valley of Mecca.

First Bayt = Located in Baca (396)

I agree

In the Bayt are distinct signs the Maqam of Ibrahim (397)

I don?t totally agree because I presented evidences that the word Fihi does not have to be INSIDE IT, rather the whole thing is representing many signs and one of those sign is ?Maqam Ibrahim?, i.e. He built it, I actually found the idea of the foot print as being the Maqam is quite funny and I don?t really buy it, actually when I went to Mecca to do Omrah I never cared to see Maqam Ibrahim or even to pray next to it.

Kaba = Bayt Al-Haram (597)

I agree

The above are what God has taught us...So, unless you show me otherwise, I will continue to insist that only the Kaaba can have the Maqam and that the Maqam must be inside the Kaaba.

Fair enough bro, I guess for me, you and every one for that matter, it will be under the hands of our God to guide whoever needs and deserves the right guiding

On my side though, I also have to insist because the only evidence that have a slight merit is Beca however to not to find a popular city called Beca in year 2006 that suppose to have the House of Allah must weaken your argument big times because Allah has told us that His House will be open all the times for all the believers and this is what we can see in Mecca and not in Jerusalem, therefore I see my understanding as far more safer than yours and when both of us will give an account to Allah, I believe I will have a far better defence case than yours in case I?m wrong.

O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.

-> See, Ibrahim made some of his family to dewl near Al Bayt Al haram where he stated it is a valley without cultivation, in no way Jerusalem is a valley nor at at his timeit was without cultivation, I don?t think Al Masjid Al Aqsa area has to be a hill not a valley ? ?,? O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation?, see, ? ?

Uncultivated does not mean barren it simply means that this area was unpopulated/uncultivated at the time when Abraham got there (5,000 or so years back at least). We also know from the Quran that Abraham called the people to this location for the Hajj and that it flourished with people and trade.

Excuse me dear brother, you are a native Arabic speaker, Ibrahim said ?Bi Waddin Ghair Zi Zarra? the key word is ?Zarra?, i.e ?plants? not people, please check the word use in the Quran,

unknownuser

Abraham first called people to the pilgrimage at Baca (no known history for Mecca before Mohammed)

Fine but a case of similar names can?t in no way be a conclusive evidence especially there are many other compelling evidences that refute it

Refute it then.

Bro, I?m not trying to refute you, I only provide evidences to every one, however I found that the onus should be on you to prove to us that during the time of Ibrahim, the area around Bayt Allah has flourished, I never read anything in the Quran to indicate that it happened on the spot, sure we can see it flourishing now unlike Jerusalem which is controlled by the Jews and never secure nor open to the public., if you really are looking for a refute then what I just said is really enough of a refute.

No problem. You skipped most of the article since you had decided it was wrong and could not see the arguments that were made for or against.

Please bro, believe me when I said that I spent about 6 hours reading your article alone and I just felt that what I responded to is what I needed to respond to, I?m not really interested in challenging you in every aspect you say, I only pick what I feel will be a strong argument on my side, nothing more bro and no disrespect intended.

I am glad you agree at least that Mohammed was at one point near the area where Lots people were destroyed...The finding where people of the city can see the town of Lot day and night is if we take the town of Lot to have been located at the Dead sea (also known till today as the sea of Lot`), from the location of Jeerusalem, the Dead Sea can be seen from the mounts as it is only 40 km away. This could be understood that people who left in the morning to work or were returning would always see the Dead Sea and thus be reminded of the people of Lot.

Firstly bro, I didn?t really agree as such as a conclusion on my side, I only said that it is quite possible that he lived there sometime while he was spreading his message however neither me nor you can really confirm that beyond doubts

My note though is this the verse clearly said that the travellers ?Yamorron Alaiha?, i.e. they pass by it, the verse never said that it will be visible from a hill or something similar like a plateau for example, so I wonder why you are suggesting that?

Quote from Layth
6. Muslims fought a war with Rome, and lost, around the Dead Sea (lowest part of the earth).
7. Rome would be fought again in a few years and defeated.
8. Rome is known by its records to have occupied the area of Syria/Lebanon/Palestine, but not the area as far south as Medina or Mecca.

I?m not really sure how the above is relating to the Qiblah issue? however I will need to do further researches before I can respond to this Rome issue you raised

This is merely showing from the Quran that there was proven activity going on with the prophet Mohammed and the area of/around Jerusalem. I say this because most sunni hsitorians deny that the prophet had anything to do with that area and that the furthest he went was to Tabuk in the north of Arabia.

Thank bro, I still need to do more researches regading The Roome and that battele and Inshallallah will get back to you.

-> Obviously Ibrahim asked Allah ? My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day?, then clearly Allah granted Ibrahim wish regarding that (Balad) town to be a secure place ? He said And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.?

Now would you consider Jerusalem a secure and city of of peace despite of the followings

Jerusalem has known nearly two dozen wars and destructions since its existence.
Jerusalem has been besieged about forty different times and destroyed (at least partially) on thirty-two different occasions.
The rulership of Jerusalem has changed hands some twenty-six times.
Since 1948 Jerusalem has experienced four wars.

Would Jerusalem be a secured Balad (City) as Allah made it to be after granting Ibrahim wish (2126)

Your argument is that Jerusalem (literal meaning city of peace) cannot be a city of peace since it had wars and occupations...Thus, it is automatically rejected since any bloodshed cancels the prayer of Abraham for it to be a city of peace?

But al least it should be safe and open 24 hours for the believers, in fact in at the Dome of the Rock they even sometimes prevent the believers from coming near by and it is very hard to enter the Doom of the Rock for men because as far as I believe it is only for women but I may be wrong, also the place is in no way flourishing as Mecca, as well the place is not a Valley where Ibrahim dropped his wife and bay son near Al Masjid Al Haram, Al Masjid Al Aqasa and other surroundings are built on a hill bro

My answer to you is simply

"And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers." (2191)

"They ask you about the restricted month 'Is there fighting in it?' Say 'Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve in Him, and at the Restricted Temple, to drive its inhabitants out is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than being killed.' And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their work in this life and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally!" (2217)

Clearly there was fighting, persecusion, and even killing done at the Restricted Temple according to God...Does that mean that the Restricted Temple is no longer in a city of peace and we should turn away from it? Or, does it mean that Abraham prayed for the city to be peacful, but that it is upto to the people to make it so by restraining thmeselves and upholding its sanctuary?

Well what you said happened once in Mecca as far as my memory is helping me, I believe you being a Saudi should be aware of it, remember that wacko who invaded the Kabba in the seventies or eighties I think and the Saudi government used that verse to fight them inside Al Masjid Al Haram, so to compare the two places, I see Mecca is far more safer than Jerusalem, exactly as Ibrahim wish was granted, but sure killing can happen at Mecca as well as it happened once before.

If Mecca is a fake city that turns people away from the right path of Allah, why He is keeping that pagan and kafiroon place safe all that long?, doesn?t He care about the innocent humans who were fooled for years for no wrong they committed against Allah? Allah only sent Mohammad about 500 years after Jesus after seeing how the flawed themselves, do you think we are flawed now for 1400 years and Allah does not care about us?

continue to show how the temple mount is the religious focus of the jews
show that it is also the focus of the christian faith

Brother, please read the words Qibla is Restricted Temple

Not, area of Jerusalem, not hills of Jerusalem, not area around the Temple. Do the Jews accept the Dome of the Rock as the Temple? Do the Christians? Do the Sunnis/Shia?

Bro the Qibalh is a direction and not a physical place, ?Wally Wajhaka Shata Al Masjid Al Haram?

Let me ask you bro, where and what exactly is Al Masjid Al Haram do you think?

None of these groups accept the Dome as the Qibla (in-fact, the Jews don`t even know where the Temple is anymore as they have various locations around Jerusalem where they believe the Temple should be errected - meaning it is not currently standing in their eyes).

The whole site is a s important to all faiths, no one can deny that, I found it silly that you are trying to create different Qiblahs within about 5 km vicinity, I know for sure that The Muslims don?t and never pointed to the Doom or the Rock, they were only pointing to Al Masjid Al Aqsa near the rock and to the left of it at the southern wall

So I take it that you consider the Doom of the Rock as Al Masjid Al Haram?

Also, you refer to Jews or others by chance facing the Dome to mean that they are taking it as their Qibla and therefore it can?t be the Qibla! When the Sunni idolitars who live in Jerusalem north of the Temple face Mecca, they are by your logic facing the Temple in Jerusalem, and therefore it has also become their Qibla!

I agree of course however if you read my comment again you will notice that I said to Noble that it will only depend on what is in the heart and mind not the physical direction that I?m pointing to, i.e. as long as my intension that I?m facing my Qiblah direction then no problem at all if I was wrong.

A Qibla is what you intend to face and focus on, not the geographic direction you happen to be facing (else we can argue that anyone north of Jerusalem is facing the Temple of Jerusalem while they are in-fact focussing on Mecca, or that people even south of Jerusalem are facing Mecca if we draw a straight line around the Earth!).

Exactly and this is what I meant all along (The underlined above)

Thanks for the discussion bro, we should continue of course but this seems to be a very long one and will take a long time so we need to be patient a bit

There is actually a small issue that I was planning to raise with Noble but I?m happy to raise it with you, I will just have a rest and some dinner then post that small comment and go to bed. I spent all day today from 6 AM, (it is 940 pm now) commenting on your web site, I guess I should get some life going of some sort

Cheers

unknownuser

Salam Noble and Layth

This something I believe is a very strong argument and despite is 1209 am now and I waked up at 6 and since then just writing, you can imagine how tired I?m, I could not sleep before I post this simple and very strong argument, I brought the only verse in the Quran where we read both Al Masjid Al Haram and Al Masjid Al Aqsa in the same verse

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

(1)

-> I?, sure both of you are aware of the understanding of this verse which talks about the night of Israa, in which Allah is telling us the following ?Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,-? , and why Allah did that?, ?in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)?

-> Now if Al Masjid Al Haram is in Jerusalem and we know that Al Masjid Al Aqsa is in Jerusalem., i.e. both of them are within a walking distance ?possibly an hour? and if a camel is ridden then it will be minutes ride, what sign would be in that?, remember that Allah did this miracle of Israa to ? in order that We might show him some of Our Signs?

Now do you really know what the purpose of the Miracle of Israa?

Well the verse is telling us ? in order that We might show him some of Our Signs?, can you see the word signs is plural, now it seems to me that those signs were more about what the prophet will see in the Miraj and not the Israa, so why the Israa then?

Well firmly believe that the miracle of Israa was required to give credit to the prophet before he can tell the people about the Miraj, if the prophet was only taken to the heaven without the Israa then he comes and tell the people about what he saw, they will 100% accuse him of being mad, he can only prove that he is not mad by showing them a proof that he was taken to the heaven and that PROOF WAS THE ISRAA

Now the miracle of Israa was done on earth and when he informed the people about it they doubted him, however he confirmed it to them by telling them about people that were travelling to Jerusalem and vice versa whom he stopped by and chatted with them, those people when they arrived to Mecca confirmed that he was telling the truth, obviously if Al Masjid Al Aqsa is close by to Al Masjid Al Haram, there will be no miracle in it, i.e. both must be very far apart hence it is a clear miracle to the people that it can?t be done IN ONE NIGHT hence Mohammad was telling the truth about the Israa and consequently what he will say about Al Miraj ?The main objective to show Mohammad many signs? should be truthful

Good night every one

Wakas

peace all,

An alternative understanding.

literal

al masjid al haram = the implementation of acknowledging the forbidden
al masjid al aqsa = the implementation of acknowledging the utmost

Once one acknowledges the system, one should try to implement it. Clearly, this would be a gradual process (a personal journey if you will). As one's understanding improved, one's implementation would improve, thus they could be said to be in a stage of "al masjid al haram" and their ultimate goal would be to reach a stage of "al masjid al aqsa", a higher level of implementation, which would surely be blessed.
Thus it should be appreciated that one can go from one stage to another, and no physical traveling would be required as they are not physical places, but levels of implementation.

possible analogy "Our current director took our company from being in the red to the top of our field, and now we enjoy the benefits of such a position." Are "the red" & "the top of our field" physical locations?

For some background reading, see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm

Wakas

noble

Peace Bros Ahmed, Layth
I have serious reservations about your last post Ahmed. From what I read, The Masjid Al Aqsa you refer to did not exist on earth until it was built after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) in Jerusalem.
I also thought the word "asra" meant ascend, ie going from a low position to a high position.
My understanding is that Masjid Al Aqsa is not on earth, but in the heaven, and that is where the Prophet was taken, and then carried on to the higher heavens to see the Signs...
This is my own interpretation, and Allah knows best.
Salam
Noble
PS About Mecca, I think there is now enough evidence put forward by Ahmed...
PPS Wakas, I understand now

Al-Quraishi

Salam Noble,

I have serious reservations about your last post Ahmed. From what I read, The Masjid Al Aqsa you refer to did not exist on earth until it was built after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) in Jerusalem.

Some say that, but it's strange how much Masjid Al-Aqsa looks like the designs of the temple on the mount, compare the 'two' buildings the basic structure is nearly identical!

My understanding is that Masjid Al Aqsa is not on earth, but in the heaven, and that is where the Prophet was taken, and then carried on to the higher heavens to see the Signs...

And you were having a go, at the metaphoralists!

noble

Salam Al Quraishi
At least now the matter of Mecca is settled, we can focus on more interesting and pressing issues, like how to revitalise our faith...

Layth

Salam Ahmed,

Your posts move around quite a bit, so I will continue to hammer out some points that I believe are not being given their due.

The Maqam is within the Bayt

First off you said that the maqam might have been inside the Kaaba and that it may have been moved outside...then you said that the words fihi do not mean inside and the subject was ended that the Maqam is the Bayt itself (not inside not outside).

Does fihi onlyt mean the object and not what is in it?

You pointed out that the words indicate the subject itself (such as the satff of Moses, the livestock) and not thier interiors. I call this a partial truth as it is true when the object has no interior, but untrue in objects that may have things in them such as the gardens with rivers flowing in them fihima ainan tajriyaan (in them are two running springs 5548-50).

The Bayt in question clearly does have an interior which people can enter

\"In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from the people to make Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.\" (397)

Therefore, since this structure has an interior that people can enter (unlike the Kaaba of mecca which no one enters except the cleaners!), then the meaning of fihi becomes inside/within and not the object itself.

To give you benefit, I will go along with you that the Kaaba itself is the Maqam (contrary to the Sunnis & shia who say it is outside)...How can that Maqam (structure) be a sign, especially when we take into account that the structure of the Kaaba has been rebuilt several times by the Ottomons, and the Saudis more recently in the last century due to flash flooding which destroyed the structure...

This is not the original hight of the Kaaba (it was added to), nor are the bricks the same that stood originally...If Abraham built it as a sign, would you still claim it is a sign after all the someones that have re-built it?

If I build you a ship and say this is what Noahs ark was like, would you claim that I am showing you one of Gods signs? (Noah`s was only a ship afterall).

Obviously the Maqam is not only located inside the Kaaba as we are told, but there must also be a relevance to what this Maqam symbolizes and it must be something very old where no human hands remade it since it was left by God and would remain till the end of our time.

This element of proof alone destroys the entire mecca being the kaaba location.

Now, if we were being serious in our discussion, then the issue of mecca would end here ans we would debate whether it is jerusalem or some other location that is the place of the temple....However, what I notice is that you brush these glaring contradictions aside and say that mecca is still ok because it passes say 1 out of 10 Quranic tests!

The place of the temple must get a 10 out of 10. 1 inconsistency and the place is out.

If you agree to this, then we can drop mecca arabia and move on to other locations...Otherwise this debate is spinning nowhere.

What follows are side comments on your posts, but consider my issue the one above before moving anywhere else.

I could not sleep before I post this simple and very strong argument, I brought the only verse in the Quran where we read both Al Masjid Al Haram and Al Masjid Al Aqsa in the same verse

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

(1)

-> I?, sure both of you are aware of the understanding of this verse which talks about the night of Israa, in which Allah is telling us the following ?Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,-? , and why Allah did that?, ?in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)?

-> Now if Al Masjid Al Haram is in Jerusalem and we know that Al Masjid Al Aqsa is in Jerusalem., i.e. both of them are within a walking distance ?possibly an hour? and if a camel is ridden then it will be minutes ride, what sign would be in that?, remember that Allah did this miracle of Israa to ? in order that We might show him some of Our Signs?

Who said AlMasjid Al-Aqsa is in Jerusalem? You are building a straw-man argument using the sunni rubish about the prophet going to jerusalem where a mosque known as the aqsa was located.

The word aqsa means furthest (which I noticed you correctly used in the translation)...this was a place where the prophet saw signs from God, where he saw Gabriel, and where he saw the tree at which heaven is located (see sura 53)...Obviously none of this occured on Earth, hence the farthest temple is truly the farthest from earth and not from town a to town b. Also, you speak of the prophet needing proof for this journey and that he spoke with some people etc. You have taken all this from the sunni fables, while God tells us that it was He Himself who responded to their accusations and confirmed what the prophet saw - see 531-18.

Bro, I?m not trying to refute you, I only provide evidences to every one, however I found that the onus should be on you to prove to us that during the time of Ibrahim, the area around Bayt Allah has flourished, I never read anything in the Quran to indicate that it happened on the spot, sure we can see it flourishing now unlike Jerusalem which is controlled by the Jews and never secure nor open to the public., if you really are looking for a refute then what I just said is really enough of a refute.

No offense, but if you havnt read about the kingdom of Solomon, the latter two kingdoms of Israel, the Roman center at Jerusalem, the preachings of the man called Jesus, or any other historical maps and records of this thriving and ancient city, then I cant do anything to change your mind that it is a barren nothing since then and till now.

If Mecca is a fake city that turns people away from the right path of Allah, why He is keeping that pagan and kafiroon place safe all that long?, doesn?t He care about the innocent humans who were fooled for years for no wrong they committed against Allah? Allah only sent Mohammad about 500 years after Jesus after seeing how the flawed themselves, do you think we are flawed now for 1400 years and Allah does not care about us?

One word for you Vatican

Not only is it a place falsely attributed to the service of God, but it is the center of blasphemy where God is worshipped as a trinity and a son is claimed to Him!

\"And they said the Almighty has taken a son! You have come with a gross blasphemy. The heavens are about to shatter from it, and the Earth crack open, and the mountains fall and crumble.\" (1988-90)

According to your new theory, that place should have been destroyed long ago, let alone prosper and be peacefull for centuries with millions of visitors going there every year!

Or, we can choose China where statues are worshipped peacefully for centuries, or India or or or...

God cares to send His messengers a dn scriptures...It is upto the human to follow His words or to follow the path of Satan and the lies that he has devised to deter from Gods path (with Gods permission).

One thing I will say about the Restricted Temple...According to God, the decree has been given that the idolators/mushrikeen are to stay away from the Temple

\"O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise. \" (92

Therefore, knowing that most of the world have set-up partners (with the Sunnis & Shia at the top of the list), and taking into account God`s decree of 928, you should be looking for a place which has been ignored/blocked where these people are not taking as their focal point (not vice versa).

Bro the Qibalh is a direction and not a physical place, ?Wally Wajhaka Shata Al Masjid Al Haram?

The whole site is a s important to all faiths, no one can deny that, I found it silly that you are trying to create different Qiblahs within about 5 km vicinity, I know for sure that The Muslims don?t and never pointed to the Doom or the Rock, they were only pointing to Al Masjid Al Aqsa near the rock and to the left of it at the southern wall

So I take it that you consider the Doom of the Rock as Al Masjid Al Haram?

Obviously you must have been tired in those 6 hours you spent reading the article as I had even included pictures of the Dome of the Rock to carry the point!

You find it silly that so many qiblas are within a short distance of each other, yet you cannot fathom that with all the buzz of faiths and people none are taking the Dome/Restricted Temple as their Qibla.

If this is not a fulfilment of Gods decree in 2145 then I dont know what is.

Hagar was an Arab, Abraham had Ishmael from her, who was 13 years older than Issac. After Sarah, Abraham\'s wife gave birth to Issac, Abraham decided to let Hagar and her son Ishmael go. He sent to the desert of Arabia in the region of Paran according to the Bible. I know that you deny that Ibrahim was married to two however all the historical evidences suggest that he was and you provided no evidences that he married only one.

You are correct that I state this as being fabricated history to attack the character of the prophet Abraham. Also, the only history you will find on this subject is the vile jewish writings which have a nasty habbit of attacking all prophets and even attacking God (Jacob wressels with God and wins in their accursed books). this blasphemy is not even worth discussing (let alone treating it as fact).

On my side though, I also have to insist because the only evidence that have a slight merit is Beca however to not to find a popular city called Beca in year 2006 that suppose to have the House of Allah must weaken your argument big times because Allah has told us that His House will be open all the times for all the believers and this is what we can see in Mecca and not in Jerusalem, therefore I see my understanding as far more safer than yours and when both of us will give an account to Allah, I believe I will have a far better defence case than yours in case I?m wrong.

That is because you missed the decree of 928 and are looking for a place that is open to idolitars while the real Temple has been made off limits by God.

However for you to say that Mecca ahas nothing to do with Islam while almost the whole world is saying Mecca has everything to do with Islam, is very unfounded and very weak argument, Mecca was mentioned in the Quran, ?Be Batn Mecca? as you know, and obviously Batn here is an indication that the fight was in a Valley.

What the vast majority say or think is of no consequence...

?And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.? (6116)

Well, there are many others who say Beca is also Meca, so your words is against them, however with the other evidences in place what they say is far more plausible than what you say

Who are these people and what is their evidence?

Did jesus say this? Moses? Abraham? Solomon? David?

You refer me to the mushrikeen who have set-up partners with God and who follow laws other than those decreed by Him...Is this your evidence?

I really don?t know why they do that, however if I consider this a corruption then that is a plausible corruption due to the human flaws, it does not take Mecca away though from the position the whole world recognise it as, also it seems you seek evidences from other sources in addition to the Quran which on my side had to do the same to respond to your non quranic evidences, however I always wondered why someone like you totally turn a blind eye on the info regarding Al Masjid Al Haram in the Hadith and accept it from other humans?, do you think all that hadith about Al Masjid Al Haram are corrupt? And if so then why not the other sources you bring evidences from may be corrupt as well?

I think that the hadith are the work of Satan as prophecised in 6112. I not only refuse to deal in them, but am disgusted by them for the blasphemy they really are.

-> Verse 24, we can clearly read that the war in the valley of Mecca was a peaceful one ?And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca after He had given you victory over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do., now I wonder if Mecca is a few thousands km away from Jerusalem, what the fight in Mecca has to do with it exactly?, we read in the following verse, Allah is telling us about those kafiroon whom the Muslim were fighting in the Valley of Mecca

-> Verse 25, , here we go one of the main mischief those kafiroon were doing was to turn the Muslims away from Al Masjid Al Haram ?It is they who disbelieved and turned you away from the Sacred Mosque and (turned off) the offering withheld from arriving at its destined place; ?

Now I wonder how some kafiroon living a few thousands km away from Jerusalem managed to turn the Muslims away from Al Masjid Al Haram that suppose to be in Jerusalem?, does not make any sense to me mate.

How come, I liberate a town by winning a war in another town a few thousands km away?, it does not make any sense to me again

It is clear that the people mentioned above (in Mecca) were an obstacle to the pilgrimage, but nowhere are they or thier location mentioned as the place for the pilgrimage (that comes later after the prophet subdues/overpowers them). Now, the main issue you have is about distance...Can the town of Mecca cause a problem through their attacks on pilgrims if mecca is located so far away from Jerusalem?

My answer is one of the following

A. If the prophet had indeed emigrated to the region of Medina, and if his actions for many years were confined to that region for fear of Rome, then it is plausible that attacks on caravans or pilgrims were indeed made as they were comming out of Medina and that it was made by the pagans of Mecca who were either serving Rome or simply highwaymen (your comparrison of distance needs to be between Mecca and Medina, not Mecca and Jerusalem).

B. That the Mecca mentioned in sura 24 is a town located north of Medina but south of Jerusalem (possibly petra) which is enclosed in a valley. The later creation of pagan Mecca in Arabia lent itself to the same name, especially after Petra was destroyed by earthquake in 650+ A.D.

As you can see, both senarios are plausible...which one is more correct is a matter of evidence.

noble

Peace Bros
Just when I thought I got it figured out )
If you leave it as to agree to disagree, I have no idea what to choose because you both convinced me

unknownuser

Peace Bros
Just when I thought I got it figured out )
If you leave it as to agree to disagree, I have no idea what to choose because you both convinced me (

LOL bro

I'm tired more than you, well I haven't read Layth post yet, I will see if I have time in the first day of the week to go through it

But please keep in mind that so far I have not presenetd one hadith as an evidence, imagine I do that, what will be the reason for the hadith evidences not to be admissable you reckon?

Cheers

unknownuser

Peace folks,

I couldnt keep myself away much longer and am back now.

Peace Bros
Just when I thought I got it figured out
If you leave it as to agree to disagree, I have no idea what to choose because you both convinced me (

Bro Noble you are at the end of the beginning but not let your respect of others over rule your mind.

Now regardless to view about Mecca, Jerusalem, Qibla, Masjid al haram and Masjid al aqsa, I have a question for FM elites; Articles about theft, dress code... are easy to understand and helpfull too. But what good does the said article serves to fellow muslims ??

unknownuser

Peace Bros Ahmed, Layth
I have serious reservations about your last post Ahmed. From what I read, The Masjid Al Aqsa you refer to did not exist on earth until it was built after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) in Jerusalem.

Peace bro

According to the history of Al Masjid Al Aqsa when the prophet was asked that question he stated that Al Masjid Al Haram was built first then 40 years later Al masjid Al Aqsa was built, what was built then is not what you see today for both Al Masjid Al Aqsa and Al Masjid Alk Haram

I.e. there was small mosque, shrine, scared corner in the vicnity of that area that was called Al Masjid Al Aqsa

It has to exist bro otherwise 171 will be a contradiction, and I'm sure you know that Mohammad elaborated a lot regarding His Israa and Miraj

Also Analysis of wooden beams and panels removed from the building during renovations in the 1930s shows they are made from Cedar of Lebanon and Cyprus. Radiocarbon dating indicates a large range of ages, some as old as 9th century BC.

An don't foegt bro, According to the Sunni, Shia and Quran alone, the prophet was using Al Masjid Al Aqsa as a focal point for some time, therefore it has to exit during his time

I also thought the word "asra" meant ascend, ie going from a low position to a high position.

No mate, Miraj is the one that means Ascend, I'm 100% sure mate

My understanding is that Masjid Al Aqsa is not on earth, but in the heaven, and that is where the Prophet was taken, and then carried on to the higher heavens to see the Signs...

The prophet was taken to the heaven not from Al Masjid Al Aqsa rather from the Rock under the Dome, the Dome didn't exit that time for sure

This is my own interpretation, and Allah knows best.
Salam
Noble

There are many own interpertation bro, it is very confusing, the only way around it bro is to take the Quran as literal as possible

PS About Mecca, I think there is now enough evidence put forward by Ahmed...
PPS Wakas, I understand now

There is no doubt bro that the evidences i provided weight far more than the other evidences provided, I'm not being biased rather being logical

now I have to go through Layth comment, sound like a few hours to me

Take care mate

unknownuser

Peace folks,

I couldnt keep myself away much longer and am back now.

Welcome back bro

Take care

unknownuser

Salm Layth

I would like to respond to a small point that you made in your last comment for now due to time limitations that I have today

I think that the hadith are the work of Satan as prophecised in 6112. I not only refuse to deal in them, but am disgusted by them for the blasphemy they really are.

Let me bring the 6112 along with 6113 so I can follow you

112- Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it so leave them and their inventions alone.

113- And that the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter may incline to it and that they may be well pleased with it and that they may earn what they are going to earn (of evil).

(112)
(113)

-> I wonder brother, why you explicitly made 6112 as referring to the prophet hadith only?, in fact the word hadith was never mentioned in that verse it only said ? ?, ?Yuhi Baddahum Ila Badd Zukhruf Al QAWL?, i.e. ?inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception?, don?t you agree that this verse applies to any Qawl that is flowery and should be about God message?, i.e. the verse can?t be referring to the prophet hadith only, assuming that I will take it as Hadith means Qawl, therefore it has to be referring to any flowery Qawl including the hadith, don?t you agree?

-> Let me give you a clear example, me and you do the exact same by promoting Qawls about Allah and His message, are me and you trying to mislead other people by ?Zukhraf Al Qqwl? (Flowery discourse by way of deception)?, it is quite possible bro according to 6112

-> How about those who say Mohammad never existed and is a metaphor, and those who say Hell is not real?, can this be classified as ?Zukhruf Al Qawl? that you also classified as blasphemy?, I guess no way you can say that it is not blasphemy to say Mohammad never exited and is a metaphor or Hell is also a metaphor because saying as such means that Allah lied to us, ironically those who must be charged with blasphemy, you gave them high ranks on your web site THAT YOU OWN, this sounds more of a confusion dear brother.

-> You refuse to accept one single hadith based on your conclusion that if one is blasphemous then all are, while on the other hand you allow many that can never be classified as Muslims to roam freely on your web site saying non sense that confuse and jeopardise our God message that you suppose to be serving Him sincerely as you claim, I?m sorry bro, I?m going to be straightforward with you here and I hope that you have the courage to accept a strong criticism, I?m not saying you ban these people that has to be kafiroon under your definition. what I may suggest to you that you should have a code of practice regarding what is allowed to be promoted in here, all in all it must be serving your cause of serving God alone and not creating a stage to further confuse His message by allowing a bunch of wannabe philosophers to roam freely promoting non sense that in many cases do not even make sense to a child.

-> To be honest bro I don?t see the Hadith of the prophet as flowery speech ?Zukhruf Al Qawl?, in fact they are boring, annoying, mostly carry tough messages and laws that are hard to follow and most importantly its Arabic is so strange and hard to read for many native Arabic speakers including myself, what can be classified as ?Zukhruf Al Qawl? bro is many of the weird and non sensible ideas promoted on your web site and disguised as philosophy ?they try to be politically correct I guess?, however they are 100% religiously incorrect according to your definition, yet many who are mislead cheer for them and take what they say for granted, no wonder Allah said in 6113 ? And that the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter may incline to it and that they may be well pleased with it and that they may earn what they are going to earn (of evil).?

Take care brother

noble

Peace Bro Ahmed
So the meaning of Asra is go/travel/move?

I second you regarding what you wrote on using more this web-site to promote sensible discourse, and not distorted views and interpretations that could lead believers, especially new converts, astray.
However, and especially for people of the book who come and visit this web site, we have to be careful in our dealings with them, as Allah enjoined us "jaadilhum billati hyia ahsan"...

That being said, Bro Layth evidence about Jerusalem is still overwhelming in my view.

I am sorry that I cannot elaborate too much on my ideas, this is the way my brain works at the moment because I am taking medications that make my thinking process quite sluggish...

Peace Bro Marlboro
Welcome back, and I hope you do not smoke

Take care Bros

fabian

Dear Ahmed Bahgat

Coming across some of your recent posts I can see that you are very sure about the physicality of Jahannam. No, that?s something I believe in myself, so that?s fine. But how sure are you of the Qibla? Because facing the right Qibla is just as important as fearing the fires of Hell. So you are absolutely sure it?s the one in Mecca?

Do you know what goes on in Mecca, and in the religion that has grown around the cubical structure therein? I am sure you have come across Brother Ayman?s findings, but the implication is far worse than what is presented there, and I will give you a few hints. Do you know that there is a thing called devil worship? Yes, there is, and it too has its peculiar cosmology, rites and rituals. This religion is coming out into the open in the West after millennia of covert existence, and people are flocking to become witches, freemasons, new-ageists, and so on. These are not made up fads, but are following esoteric traditions of thousands of years. They openly pay homage to Lillith, the goddess, Lucifer, Satan, and what not. But I see all this as Western stupidity, and not the real manifestation of devil worship. No, the real worship is carried on, as it has always done, in the dark. Not even the protagonists are aware of whom they are worshipping, for it is done in the name of true prophets. Yes, the traditional Jews, Christians and Moslems are the protagonists. They think themselves faithful and righteous, and of them the Quran says this

?Then there are those who say, "We believe in GOD and the Last Day," while they are not believers. In trying to deceive GOD and those who believe, they only deceive them-selves without perceiving. In their minds there is a disease. Consequently, GOD augments their disease. They have incurred a painful retribution for their lying. When they are told, "Do not commit evil," they say, "But we are righteous!" ? When they meet the believers, they say, "We believe," but when alone with their devils, they say, "We are with you; we were only mocking." ? (28-14)

Examine these religions carefully and you will find that when these believers are alone, i.e. in their subconscious selves, they are consorting with their devils, and they are bowing down prostrate before them, pledging allegiance to them, and are telling them that their manifest acts are only in order to mock God. This is where true devil-worship is carried on, and the witches, freemasons and new-ageists are only idiots.

Let?s go through them one by one. The Jews worship Yahweh who confers onto them the distinction of being the chosen people. Who else but Iblis could be telling them this, and so they override the Torah with tons of man-made rituals (Mishnah and Gemara), and every one of those rituals is expressing exclusivist pride. Black magic, in the form of the Jewish Kabbala, finds prominent place in their theology and permeates much of their religious life. Just take a look at the seven branched candle carried by the Rabbis during their ceremonies, a representation of the Kabbala, the tree of life (in truth the tree of bitterness).

The Christians take this a step further, because Jesus Christ dying on the cross to cleanse the sins of man in nothing other than a realisation of alchemy. For the death of God on the cross can realise the new man, the superman, he who is washed of original sin. The philosopher?s stone turns base metal into gold. It all ties in with the worship of the sun, and the three days that Jesus is supposed to have remained dead in the tomb correspond to the three days that the sun stays motionless at its lowest point before moving northwards again to commence the new year. Christians, who have nothing of the message of prophet Issa among them, now celebrate Christmas, which is celebrating nothing other than the birth of Osiris, Tammuz, Bacchus or Orpheus, and these are incarnations of the Devil, euphemiously called ?gods of wine?. They hark after the Holy Grail, which is nothing other than the womb of the Goddess that will give birth to the devil-child.

The Moslems bring the whole sequence to a fruition, for all their rituals consist of welcoming the dark offspring into the world from the womb of Allat, and this is what is bowed down to five times a day by the ?Moslems? of the world, and stands as the focus of Hajj. Brother Ayman has exposed to us the whole scheme is graphic detail. The Sange-aswad points directly towards the direction of the rising winter sun. The five prayers everyday could well stand for the pentagram of the witch. Notice how they pray in congregations, utmost pains taken to line up the feet (and the line is made with the toes leaving the inner circle inviolate, just as the witches do, and just as with the rule of the magic circle there must be no gaps in the perimeter.) The composite effect is concentric circles around the Kaaba, and spreading all over the world. This reminds us of the witch?s invocation to ?square the circle?, where the chanting of the witch is directed towards the center of the circle, invoking the fire within. The Kaaba ? the cube ? stands at the center of their prayers, and Iblis is indeed the creature of fire. ?Squaring the circle? is a fundamental part all the mystery religions, and it signifies nothing other than the triumph of materialism over the divine, or Satan over God. Materialism is in the 4 dimensions, whereas the circle signifies the realm of God. The original pagan crosses were circles with crosses superimposed. The Christians took away the circle and put a dying God in its place, so nothing of the original significance was changed, because the circle is signifying God and His infinite creation. Even the mystery schools of Pythagoras venerated the mystery of ?squaring the circle? to invoke the ?sacred fire within?. There was a mathematical manifestation of this same idea, and it stands at the root of Western science and philosophy.

So this is what goes on with the Kaaba at Mecca at its center. And you claim this to be Masjudul Haram and the focus of much of our attention? Is this a protected place? What is a little strife and bloodshed compared to organized evil taking refuge in this place? Try to imagine it. All the hypocritical scum of the world converging to this place and going back home with their evil propensities strengthened and the diabolical ways confirmed! What is the pinnacle of defilement, if indeed the Kaaba is taken to be the Masjidul Haram? Can you even begin to imagine the magnitude of it all? Have you ever experienced the terror inherent in traditional Moslem society, where the mind is clamped from day one, and the threat of death maintained within for anyone trying to break free? If you?re living in the West, the place of designer-religion, then you?re not likely to make much of this, because then you have forgotten (or never really known) what true terrorism is.

If you cared about the plight of Masjidul Haram then I don?t think you would be wasting your time arguing with a few Puritans about hell-fire. You would be more concerned about how those very same depictions of hell-fire have been employed to scare children into the fold of darkness, and where no grown-up ever thinks twice about it. No, you would desire that THOSE grown-ups listen to the descriptions of hell-fire instead, and would want to spare the young impressionable minds from torture, so that they might grow up to question their parents? ways and thus recover the Deen. You would have directed all your efforts towards cleansing the Masjidul Haram from impurity. But is it at the location where you think it is? The protected temple? The Qibla, that in which we are told to focus constantly and wherever we are? You must reconsider. Dwell once more on this verse, which Brother Layth has also pointed out for your attention

"O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise." (92

Fabian

unknownuser

Peace Bro Ahmed
So the meaning of Asra is go/travel/move?

Peace mate

Yes

unknownuser

Dear Ahmed Bahgat

Peace Fabian

Coming across some of your recent posts I can see that you are very sure about the physicality of Jahannam.

Well, let me put it in a simpler manner, if there will ever be a God then He has to be Allah and if Allah exits then His Hell must exist for real, this is what He said not me. I only believe in it. and because Allah is the one who said it then yes I?m very sure about the physicality of Jahannam

No, that?s something I believe in myself, so that?s fine.

Great that we agree on Jahannam

But how sure are you of the Qibla?

Well, according to the evidences provided from the Quran it the Qiblah that has to be towards Al Masjid Al Haram and we know that Ibrahim left his wife and baby in a VALLEY near Al Masjid Al Haram, we also know about the miracle of Israa and sure the two Mosques must be a huge distance apart for the miracle to be a miracle, as well Allah ordered his prophet not to use Jerusalem ?The Qiblah of Ahl Al Kitab? as a Qiblah , if we look at all these criteria it has to be Mecca, therefore I?m 100% sure about the Qiblah towards Mecca

Because facing the right Qibla is just as important as fearing the fires of Hell.

I don?t know what you mean by the above, I see no relation between the Qiblah direction and the fires of Hell, however yes if you don?t obey the prophet and follow his Qiblah then you should be questioned by Allah big times.

So you are absolutely sure it?s the one in Mecca?

100% as I?m sure of my name

Do you know what goes on in Mecca, and in the religion that has grown around the cubical structure therein?

Yes I know, how about you? What do you know exactly? and I would like to know how old are you if you don?t mind please?

I am sure you have come across Brother Ayman?s findings,

Do you mean Ayman Articles? because I don?t classify it as findings in any way, so if you mean his articles, yes I did (a few times),

but the implication is far worse than what is presented there, and I will give you a few hints. Do you know that there is a thing called devil worship?

Yes

Yes, there is,

We agreed again, this is great

and it too has its peculiar cosmology, rites and rituals.

so?

This religion is coming out into the open in the West after millennia of covert existence, and people are flocking to become witches, freemasons, new-ageists, and so on.

I know it years ago bro, and they even exist in my original country of birth (Egypt) however what is the relevance of that to the Qiblah please?

These are not made up fads, but are following esoteric traditions of thousands of years.

So again?

They openly pay homage to Lillith, the goddess, Lucifer, Satan, and what not.

Sorry bro, I?m not interested in all that, I?m discussing the Quran in here, not trying tom be rude though, sorry just in case it upsets you

But I see all this as Western stupidity,

Hmm, they exist in the Arab and eastern world too

and not the real manifestation of devil worship. No, the real worship is carried on, as it has always done, in the dark. Not even the protagonists are aware of whom they are worshipping, for it is done in the name of true prophets. Yes, the traditional Jews, Christians and Moslems are the protagonists. They think themselves faithful and righteous, and of them the Quran says this

well do you mean all the jews, all the Christians and all the Moslems?

?Then there are those who say, "We believe in GOD and the Last Day," while they are not believers. In trying to deceive GOD and those who believe, they only deceive them-selves without perceiving. In their minds there is a disease. Consequently, GOD augments their disease. They have incurred a painful retribution for their lying. When they are told, "Do not commit evil," they say, "But we are righteous!" ? When they meet the believers, they say, "We believe," but when alone with their devils, they say, "We are with you; we were only mocking." ? (28-14)

well, I know these verses pretty well, I believe 28-20 are talking about the same people, I don?t know why you cut it short at verse 214, these verse for me means mainly the terrorist or generally the confused believers who commit atrocities in the name of the religion, can you please prove to me that the majority of the sunnis are committing atrocities in the name of the religion

so for you to try to tell me that these verse 28-20 are talking about the majority of the Sunnis, I say you are way off the mark and I can walk you through the verses to prove it to you. In fact the walk through may surprise you.

Examine these religions carefully and you will find that when these believers are alone, i.e. in their subconscious selves, they are consorting with their devils, and they are bowing down prostrate before them, pledging allegiance to them, and are telling them that their manifest acts are only in order to mock God. This is where true devil-worship is carried on, and the witches, freemasons and new-ageists are only idiots.

Great, and it is a possibility of course however I see those devil mentioned are nothing but their leaders in theor crimes.

Let?s go through them one by one. The Jews worship Yahweh who confers onto them the distinction of being the chosen people. Who else but Iblis could be telling them this, and so they override the Torah with tons of man-made rituals (Mishnah and Gemara), and every one of those rituals is expressing exclusivist pride. Black magic, in the form of the Jewish Kabbala, finds prominent place in their theology and permeates much of their religious life. Just take a look at the seven branched candle carried by the Rabbis during their ceremonies, a representation of the Kabbala, the tree of life (in truth the tree of bitterness).

Thanks for the info, again what that has to do with the Qiblah please?

The Christians take this a step further, because Jesus Christ dying on the cross to cleanse the sins of man in nothing other than a realisation of alchemy. For the death of God on the cross can realise the new man, the superman, he who is washed of original sin. The philosopher?s stone turns base metal into gold. It all ties in with the worship of the sun, and the three days that Jesus is supposed to have remained dead in the tomb correspond to the three days that the sun stays motionless at its lowest point before moving northwards again to commence the new year. Christians, who have nothing of the message of prophet Issa among them, now celebrate Christmas, which is celebrating nothing other than the birth of Osiris, Tammuz, Bacchus or Orpheus, and these are incarnations of the Devil, euphemiously called ?gods of wine?. They hark after the Holy Grail, which is nothing other than the womb of the Goddess that will give birth to the devil-child.

Thanks again, would the above be an evidence towards finding the Qiblah?, I?m not trying to be disrespectful here, I really though that your post is related to what we are discussing which is the Qiblah.

The Moslems bring the whole sequence to a fruition, for all their rituals consist of welcoming the dark offspring into the world from the womb of Allat,

Total non sense because kissing or touching whatever in the Haram is not written in the Quran so if you wwant to classify this as confusion I may agree with you but that does not change the position of the kabba that it is the first Allah bayt erected on earth and the Qiblah for all believers

and this is what is bowed down to five times a day by the ?Moslems? of the world,

Haha, nice try bro

and stands as the focus of Hajj. Brother Ayman has exposed to us the whole scheme is graphic detail.

good for you that you believed him

The Sange-aswad points directly towards the direction of the rising winter sun. The five prayers everyday could well stand for the pentagram of the witch.

Could well, or it sure is?

Sounds like someone is devil worshipping to me, but not those who pray 5 times a day I believe

Notice how they pray in congregations, utmost pains taken to line up the feet (and the line is made with the toes leaving the inner circle inviolate, just as the witches do, and just as with the rule of the magic circle there must be no gaps in the perimeter.)

Haha bro, please can I ask you again how old are you?, I just want to have a first impression on the possibility of your life experience

The composite effect is concentric circles around the Kaaba,

Well, the order of Tawaf was given in the Quran, unless for you the Quran is written by the devil?

and spreading all over the world. This reminds us of the witch?s invocation to ?square the circle?,

sounds like you like to watch witches movies?

Did you see ?The Blair Witch Project?, that was one hell of a scary movie bro, do you think the Director is a devil worshipper?, how about the producer?

where the chanting of the witch is directed towards the center of the circle, invoking the fire within.

good to know, I hardly watch witches movies bro

The Kaaba ? the cube ? stands at the center of their prayers, and Iblis is indeed the creature of fire. ?Squaring the circle? is a fundamental part all the mystery religions, and it signifies nothing other than the triumph of materialism over the divine, or Satan over God. Materialism is in the 4 dimensions, whereas the circle signifies the realm of God. The original pagan crosses were circles with crosses superimposed. The Christians took away the circle and put a dying God in its place, so nothing of the original significance was changed, because the circle is signifying God and His infinite creation. Even the mystery schools of Pythagoras venerated the mystery of ?squaring the circle? to invoke the ?sacred fire within?. There was a mathematical manifestation of this same idea, and it stands at the root of Western science and philosophy.

LOL, what can I say, thanks for nothing bro

So this is what goes on with the Kaaba at Mecca at its center.

This only happens in your fantasy world of witches, it does not happen for real

And you claim this to be Masjudul Haram and the focus of much of our attention?

You can call it my fantasy world of whatever you wish but not witches please, how about my fantasy world of barbie?

Is this a protected place? What is a little strife and bloodshed compared to organized evil taking refuge in this place? Try to imagine it. All the hypocritical scum of the world converging to this place and going back home with their evil propensities and the diabolical ways confirmed! What is the pinnacle of defilement, if indeed the Kaaba is taken to be the Masjidul Haram? Can you even begin to imagine the magnitude of it all? Have you ever experienced the terror inherent in traditional Moslem society, where the mind is clamped from day one, and the threat of death maintained within for anyone trying to break free? If you?re living in the West, the place of designer-religion, then you?re not likely to make much of this, because then you have forgotten (or never really known) what true terrorism is.

Bro, I think you selected the wrong person to discuss your concerns with, let me confirm to you that I'm so manipulated and brain washed that I chose to head for the physical hell I believe in, therefore it will be a waste of your time to discuss it with me really, sorry

If you cared about the plight of Masjidul Haram then I don?t think you would be wasting your time arguing with a few Puritans about hell-fire. You would be more concerned about how those very same depictions of hell-fire have been employed to scare children into the fold of darkness, and where no grown-up ever thinks twice about it. No, you would desire that THOSE grown-ups listen to the descriptions of hell-fire instead, and would want to spare the young impressionable minds from torture, so that they might grow up to question their parents? ways and thus recover the Deen. You would have directed all your efforts towards cleansing the Masjidul Haram from impurity. But is it at the location where you think it is? The protected temple? The Qibla, that in which we are told to focus constantly and wherever we are? You must reconsider. Dwell once more on this verse, which Brother Layth has also pointed out for your attention

"O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise." (92

Fabian

Nice twist you ended up you comment with so let me end mine with a twist as well, please remember that I?m dumb deaf and blind 218

Cheers

fabian

Peace Ahmed

So it?s Ahmed Bahgat, Egyptian, supplant to the West, plus Quran. Sounds like a neat and well-defined universe to me. Other than that not much of interest. And don?t bother to run through the Quranic verses which you thought relevant. If it was Ahmed Bahgat plus Quran plus real world, then I would have been willing to go there. But just Ahmed Bahgat plus Quran? No that sounds too boring to me. Thanks for the offer anyway.

Fabian