Kaaba at Jerusalem and not at Mecca

Al-Quraishi

Fabian, mate, seriously, you've gotta get a grip.

The Sange-aswad points directly towards the direction of the rising winter sun. The five prayers everyday could well stand for the pentagram of the witch.

The pentagram of the witch? You need to open your mind, the pentagram is a symbol, it has been used by many different kinds of people for a very long time. And you've linked the pentagram of the witch to the five daily prayers? No wonder you've come to the conclusions you have.

Fabian, have you even read the Qur'an?

Notice how they pray in congregations, utmost pains taken to line up the feet (and the line is made with the toes leaving the inner circle inviolate, just as the witches do, and just as with the rule of the magic circle there must be no gaps in the perimeter.)

Congregational Praying - in the Qur'an...

The composite effect is concentric circles around the Kaaba,

Would things work any differently if Masjid al-Aqsa was taken to be the Qiblah? Do the laws of Physics change all of a sudden?

Also, going round the Masjid - in the Qur'an.

Try and get your facts right before you star making such dangerous accusations.

At the end of the day Fabian, you're either a non-Muslim which explains your complete disregard and beliefs that Qur'anic prinicples are stanistic or you're a complete and utter idiot, who says a loada BS which is completely contradictory to what is said in the Qur'an.

I know it's harsh mate, but someone's gotta tell you because you're going in completely the wrong direction.

Either be a Muslim and stop contradicting the Qur'an or be a non-Muslim and come completely out with the beliefs that you think the Qur'an is satanistic.

noble

Peace Bros
I think these are dangerous lines of enquiry.
However we cannot get to the truth if we do not examine them.

How about my view
Allah gives guidance to mankind as to how to follow His worship.
Satan wants to lead mankind astray, so tries and convinces mankind to worship him instead.
Satan has no need to make major changes to the way the worship has to be conducted, just pollutes the heart of the follower with different interpretations, surely this is easier for Satan to do than go through the rebuilding of a whole faith.
Therefore Satan acts as a virus which hijacks the genetic blueprint of a cell to make it do what he/it wants...
This is why there will be similarities in worships, but it is the content that is very important, which means your body is following a ritual, but what is your mind/heart doing?

And Allah knows best
Salam

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed

So it?s Ahmed Bahgat, Egyptian, supplant to the West, plus Quran. Sounds like a neat and well-defined universe to me. Other than that not much of interest. And don?t bother to run through the Quranic verses which you thought relevant. If it was Ahmed Bahgat plus Quran plus real world, then I would have been willing to go there. But just Ahmed Bahgat plus Quran? No that sounds too boring to me. Thanks for the offer anyway.

Fabian

No worries

Ahmed Bahgat

unknownuser

Peace Bros
I think these are dangerous lines of enquiry.
However we cannot get to the truth if we do not examine them.

How about my view
Allah gives guidance to mankind as to how to follow His worship.
Satan wants to lead mankind astray, so tries and convinces mankind to worship him instead.
Satan has no need to make major changes to the way the worship has to be conducted, just pollutes the heart of the follower with different interpretations, surely this is easier for Satan to do than go through the rebuilding of a whole faith.
Therefore Satan acts as a virus which hijacks the genetic blueprint of a cell to make it do what he/it wants...
This is why there will be similarities in worships, but it is the content that is very important, which means your body is following a ritual, but what is your mind/heart doing?

And Allah knows best
Salam

Peace bro,

I prepared some info for you, I'm still working on it and I hope to post it before I head to work, if not, then later today

cheers

noble

Peace Ahmed
Take your time, I am not going anywhere lol

unknownuser

Salam Bro Noble

I would like to share NOT debate the following info with you, it seemed to me that you lack some history knowledge that is very well known, after going through this article I hope that you google many of the names mentioned in it and find for yourself how truthful it can be, I hope though that you compare it with the Quran, the comparison here is to find out if it contradicts the Quran, if not then we have a good reason to accept, this is my natural attitude bro, I accept any human logic or any historical record AS LONG AS it does not contradict the Quran, this is how far I can be open minded. The document is about the history of Al Aqsa mosque and what happened there since it shrine to worship Allah was erected the first time by Ibrahim in there, I included all the Bible and Quran verses so you don?t get lost by navigating through many things while you are reading, I decreased the verses font because the article is a bit long

The patriarch of all the believers of Allah, i.e. Jews, Christians, and Muslims is Prophet Ibrahim. He built the Kaba in Makkah with his firstborn son Ismael. This was an order from Allah that Ibrahim and Ismael construct this Holy House of Allah as a place of worship for all the believers on earth. Ismael was 17 at the time he and his father built the Kaba. Prophet Muhammad (a descendent of Prophet Ismael) would come nearly 2,500 years after Kaba was built and repurify it as a holy place of worship according to the teachings of Prophet Ibrahim. As stated in the Torah and in the Holy Quran "all the generations will be blessed through Ibrahim"

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
9 And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.
10 And there was a famine in the land and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.
11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon
12 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.
13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
14 And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.
15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.
16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.
17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.
18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?
19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
20 And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.

1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant
4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree
5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.
16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham and Abraham returned unto his place.

123 And be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped.
124 And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.
125 And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Ibrahim. And We enjoined Ibrahim and Ismail saying Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves.
126 And when Ibrahim said My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination.
127 And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing
128 Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
129 Our Lord! and raise up in them a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.
130 And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.
131 When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.
132 And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims.
133 Nay! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said to his sons What will you serve after me? They said We will serve your god and the god of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq, one Allah only, and to Him do we submit.
134 This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did.
135 And they say Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists. `
136 Say We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
137 If then they believe as you believe in Him, they are indeed on the right course, and if they turn back, then they are only in great opposition, so Allah will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
138 (Receive) the baptism of Allah, and who is better than Allah in baptising? and Him do we serve.
139 Say Do you dispute with us about Allah, and He is our Lord and your Lord, and we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds, and we are sincere to Him.
140 Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
141 This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did.

To be continued...

unknownuser

In Jerusalem, Prophet Ibrahim also established a place of worship. This place would later be known as The House of Allah, or Beteyel. Forty years after the construction of Kaba, Prophet Ibrahim expanded this place of worship. Isaac, Prophet Ibrahim's younger son, worshipped in Beteyel, but also made journeys to Kaba in Makkah for Hajj as did Ibrahim. Jacob the second son of Isaac, extended Beteyel as a place of worship for all the believers of Allah in the region. The natives of the land, the Palestinians, believers in the teachings of Prophet Ibrahim also worshipped in Beteyel or The House Of Allah. Ibrahim referred to Beteyel as ?Masjid Al-Aqsa?, which means the farthest place of worship of the One God. Prophet Ibrahim was stating that Masjid Al-Aqsa was the farthest place of worship west of Kaba in Makkah.

Some years later, Prophet Joseph, the son of Jacob attained a high position of power in Egypt, he sent for all of his family to come live with him in Egypt away from the poverty of Palestine. There were 33 in all, Jacob, his children and his grandchildren.

1 And Israel took his journey with all that he had, and came to Beer-sheba, and offered sacrifices unto the God of his father Isaac.
2 And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.
3 And he said, I am God, the God of thy father fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation
4 I will go down with thee into Egypt; and I will also surely bring thee up again and Joseph shall put his hand upon thine eyes.
5 And Jacob rose up from Beer-sheba and the sons of Israel carried Jacob their father, and their little ones, and their wives, in the wagons which Pharaoh had sent to carry him.
6 And they took their cattle, and their goods, which they had gotten in the land of Canaan, and came into Egypt, Jacob, and all his seed with him
7 His sons, and his sons' sons with him, his daughters, and his sons' daughters, and all his seed brought he with him into Egypt.
8 And these are the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt, Jacob and his sons Reuben, Jacob's firstborn.
9 And the sons of Reuben; Hanoch, and Phallu, and Hezron, and Carmi.
10 And the sons of Simeon; Jemuel, and Jamin, and Ohad, and Jachin, and Zohar, and Shaul the son of a Canaanitish woman.
11 And the sons of Levi; Gershon, Kohath, and Merari.
12 And the sons of Judah; Er, and Onan, and Shelah, and Pharez, and Zerah but Er and Onan died in the land of Canaan. And the sons of Pharez were Hezron and Hamul.
13 And the sons of Issachar; Tola, and Phuvah, and Job, and Shimron.
14 And the sons of Zebulun; Sered, and Elon, and Jahleel.
15 These be the sons of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob in Padan-aram, with his daughter Dinah all the souls of his sons and his daughters were thirty and three.
16 And the sons of Gad; Ziphion, and Haggi, Shuni, and Ezbon, Eri, and Arodi, and Areli.
17 And the sons of Asher; Jimnah, and Ishuah, and Isui, and Beriah, and Serah their sister and the sons of Beriah; Heber, and Malchiel.
18 These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.
19 The sons of Rachel Jacob's wife; Joseph, and Benjamin.
20 And unto Joseph in the land of Egypt were born Manasseh and Ephraim, which Asenath the daughter of Poti-pherah priest of On bare unto him.
21 And the sons of Benjamin were Belah, and Becher, and Ashbel, Gera, and Naaman, Ehi, and Rosh, Muppim, and Huppim, and Ard.
22 These are the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob all the souls were fourteen.
23 And the sons of Dan; Hushim.
24 And the sons of Naphtali; Jahzeel, and Guni, and Jezer, and Shillem.
25 These are the sons of Bilhah, which Laban gave unto Rachel his daughter, and she bare these unto Jacob all the souls were seven.
26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;
27 And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.
28 And he sent Judah before him unto Joseph, to direct his face unto Goshen; and they came into the land of Goshen.
29 And Joseph made ready his chariot, and went up to meet Israel his father, to Goshen, and presented himself unto him; and he fell on his neck, and wept on his neck a good while.
30 And Israel said unto Joseph, Now let me die, since I have seen thy face, because thou art yet alive.
31 And Joseph said unto his brethren, and unto his father's house, I will go up, and shew Pharaoh, and say unto him, My brethren, and my father's house, which were in the land of Canaan, are come unto me;
32 And the men are shepherds, for their trade hath been to feed cattle; and they have brought their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have.
33 And it shall come to pass, when Pharaoh shall call you, and shall say, What is your occupation?
34 That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

Because there was no one left from Jacob's tribe to care for Beteyel, Jacob, intrusted care of Beteyel or Masjid Al-Aqsa to the natives of the area, the Palestinians. This was acceptable due to the fact that the natives were also followers of the Patriarch Prophet Ibrahim. The Israelites remained in Egypt for four hundred years as slaves to the Egyptians with no connection to Palestine, the land from which they immigrated

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

This choice was not forced on them; they simply chose to leave Palestine for the sake of the wealth and riches in Egypt.

In the time of Prophet Moses, the Israelites were still slaves to the Egyptians. Allah ordered Moses, after freeing the Israelites from bondage, to lead them to Palestine. The Israelites rejected this order from Allah, and preferred to live in the desert of Sinai, rather than to sacrifice themselves for the sake of Allah. They believed this land belonged to the Palestinians, the natives of the area.

For forty years, the Israelites wandered in the desert of Sinai. A new generation was born, and from it came Prophet David, he would lead this generation of believers to Palestine. Prophet David established his kingdom in part of Palestine, and controlled Jerusalem. His son, Prophet Soloman (King Solomon) rebuilt Masjid Al-Aqsa with the help of the natives, and next to it he built the ruler's palace. After Prophet Solomon's death, his two sons divided his kingdom amongst themselves. Each son established his own kingdom and each had its own capital. From both of these kingdoms, Allah raised prophets. According to Jewish history, these kingdoms existed for nearly two hundred years.

In 586 B.C., King Je-hoia-chin of Jerusalem saw that he might lose his kingdom. He was the last Jewish king who tried to resist the Babylonians in Jerusalem. In his struggle, his kingdom was surrounded by the Babylonians who cut off supplies from the outside world. When the inhabitants of Jerusalem ran out of food and water, the king made a tunnel to enable his soldiers to escape and retrieve supplies from the outside world. Part of the tunnel collapsed, the resistance led by King Je-hoia-chin was defeated, and the Babylonians took over Jerusalem. The tunnel used by King Je-hoia-chin, is the same tunnel being excavated today in Jerusalem. After the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem, they took its inhabitants as slaves to Babylon.

The Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar destroyed what King Solomon had built in Jerusalem

1 In his days Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up, and Jehoiakim became his servant three years then he turned and rebelled against him.
2 And the LORD sent against him bands of the Chaldees, and bands of the Syrians, and bands of the Moabites, and bands of the children of Ammon, and sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servants the prophets.
3 Surely at the commandment of the LORD came this upon Judah, to remove them out of his sight, for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he did;
4 And also for the innocent blood that he shed for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the LORD would not pardon.
5 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, and all that he did, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah?
6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.
7 And the king of Egypt came not again any more out of his land for the king of Babylon had taken from the river of Egypt unto the river Euphrates all that pertained to the king of Egypt.
8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
9 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father had done.
10 At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged.
11 And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his servants did besiege it.
12 And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign.
13 And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the LORD, as the LORD had said.
14 And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land.
15 And he carried away Jehoiachin to Babylon, and the king's mother, and the king's wives, and his officers, and the mighty of the land, those carried he into captivity from Jerusalem to Babylon.
16 And all the men of might, even seven thousand, and craftsmen and smiths a thousand, all that were strong and apt for war, even them the king of Babylon brought captive to Babylon.
17 And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father's brother king in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah.
18 Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hamutal, the daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah.
19 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that Jehoiakim had done.
20 For through the anger of the LORD it came to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, until he had cast them out from his presence, that Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon.

1 And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came, he, and all his host, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it; and they built forts against it round about.
2 And the city was besieged unto the eleventh year of king Zedekiah.
3 And on the ninth day of the fourth month the famine prevailed in the city, and there was no bread for the people of the land.
4 And the city was broken up, and all the men of war fled by night by the way of the gate between two walls, which is by the king's garden (now the Chaldees were against the city round about) and the king went the way toward the plain.
5 And the army of the Chaldees pursued after the king, and overtook him in the plains of Jericho and all his army were scattered from him.
6 So they took the king, and brought him up to the king of Babylon to Riblah; and they gave judgment upon him.
7 And they slew the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes, and put out the eyes of Zedekiah, and bound him with fetters of brass, and carried him to Babylon.
8 And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzar-adan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem
9 And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire.
10 And all the army of the Chaldees, that were with the captain of the guard, brake down the walls of Jerusalem round about.
11 Now the rest of the people that were left in the city, and the fugitives that fell away to the king of Babylon, with the remnant of the multitude, did Nebuzar-adan the captain of the guard carry away.
12 But the captain of the guard left of the poor of the land to be vinedressers and husbandmen.
13 And the pillars of brass that were in the house of the LORD, and the bases, and the brasen sea that was in the house of the LORD, did the Chaldees break in pieces, and carried the brass of them to Babylon.
14 And the pots, and the shovels, and the snuffers, and the spoons, and all the vessels of brass wherewith they ministered, took they away.
15 And the firepans, and the bowls, and such things as were of gold, in gold, and of silver, in silver, the captain of the guard took away.
16 The two pillars, one sea, and the bases which Solomon had made for the house of the LORD; the brass of all these vessels was without weight.
17 The height of the one pillar was eighteen cubits, and the chapiter upon it was brass and the height of the chapiter three cubits; and the wreathen work, and pomegranates upon the chapiter round about, all of brass and like unto these had the second pillar with wreathen work.
18 And the captain of the guard took Seraiah the chief priest, and Zephaniah the second priest, and the three keepers of the door
19 And out of the city he took an officer that was set over the men of war, and five men of them that were in the king's presence, which were found in the city, and the principal scribe of the host, which mustered the people of the land, and threescore men of the people of the land that were found in the city
20 And Nebuzar-adan captain of the guard took these, and brought them to the king of Babylon to Riblah
21 And the king of Babylon smote them, and slew them at Riblah in the land of Hamath. So Judah was carried away out of their land.
22 And as for the people that remained in the land of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had left, even over them he made Gedaliah the son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, ruler.
23 And when all the captains of the armies, they and their men, heard that the king of Babylon had made Gedaliah governor, there came to Gedaliah to Mizpah, even Ishmael the son of Nethahiah, and Johanan the son of Careah, and Seraiah the son of Tanhumeth the Netophathite, and Jaazaniah the son of a Maachathite, they and their men.
24 And Gedaliah sware to them, and to their men, and said unto them, Fear not to be the servants of the Chaldees dwell in the land, and serve the king of Babylon; and it shall be well with you.
25 But it came to pass in the seventh month, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, the son of Elishama, of the seed royal, came, and ten men with him, and smote Gedaliah, that he died, and the Jews and the Chaldees that were with him at Mizpah.
26 And all the people, both small and great, and the captains of the armies, arose, and came to Egypt for they were afraid of the Chaldees.
27 And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, that Evil-merodach king of Babylon in the year that he began to reign did lift up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah out of prison;
28 And he spake kindly to him, and set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon;
29 And changed his prison garments and he did eat bread continually before him all the days of his life.
30 And his allowance was a continual allowance given him of the king, a daily rate for every day, all the days of his life.

To be continued...

unknownuser

According to the word of God in the Torah, the Israelites were made to be slaves in both the Nile and in the Euphrates.

After seventy years of slavery in Babylon, King Cyrus of Persia gave the Israelites their freedom. At that time very few of the Israelites returned to Palestine. These few Israelites worshipped only in The House Of Allah. For generations, the Israelites took care of Beteyel or Masjid Al-Aqsa. During the period when the Roman Empire was in constant battle with the Persean Empire, the Israelites aided the Perseans, and benefited when the Perseans had control of Jerusalem. Because the Israelites supported the Persean Empire as spies and in other ways, the Romans treated them as enemies of the Roman Empire.

In 70 A.D., the Romans destroyed (burned) Beteyel, and converted it into a place of Roman idol worship (Jupitor,etc.). In 315 A.D., when the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity, the Romans had no regard for Beteyel. It became a place were the inhabitants of Jerusalem, including the Jews threw their garbage. The Jews no longer considered Beteyel a Holy Shrine.

The Persean Empire defeated the Romans in 614 A.D., the Jews were now able to worship where they wished, but chose not to worship in Beteyel or Masjid Al-Aqsa. The Perseans controlled Jerusalem until 624 A.D. The Jews, who were in a position of power during this period, tortured the Arab Christians. Jerusalem was in need of a just ruler. Both the Christians and the Jews had suffered under different empires, and both knew that the Holy Scriptures promised the coming of a ruler to save them from all this unjust torture and aggression.
The Israelites were awaiting the coming of the Messiah, who would be king and ruler, and would defeat all the evil empires, as promised by Allah. The only Prophet in history to have accomplished this task, was Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad and his followers defeated all the empires of the time, establishing the Kingdom Of God throughout the region. This included Jerusalem as promised by Allah to the Muslims

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The Israelites had tried to fulfil this prophecy in 165 B.C., under the leadership of Judah Makabi. Within three years, he was defeated by the Romans, who regained complete control of Jerusalem. Prophet Jesus was also unable to accomplish this task mentioned in the Holy Scriptures. It was a Prophet from Arabia, indeed Prophet Muhammad was the only one who fulfilled this prophecy.

In 621 A.D., Prophet Muhammad travelled to Al Masjid Al Aqsa then ascended to the heavens in the night known as Israa and Miraj to the Muslims

1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.
13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?
14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?

In that night, Prophet Muhammad led all Prophets of Allah in prayer in the Holy Mosque (Masjid Al-Aqsa). For this reason, Masjid Al-Aqsa is a holy place of worship for the Muslims, along with Kaba in Makkah and Prophet's Mosque in Medina. These are the three most important Mosques to the Muslims.

In 637 A.D., the Christian leader of Jerusalem, Snaifors, realized through the holy Scriptures

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem behold, thy King cometh unto thee he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off and he shall speak peace unto the heathen and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.

that the second leader of the Islamic State, Umar ibn Al-Khatab, fits the description of the one who would open Jerusalem and free it from the evil empires. Snaifors surrendered peacefully. Umar ibn Al-Khatab and the Muslims, after securing Jerusalem, again established Masjid Al-Aqsa as a holy place of worship. Both the Christians and the Jews were pleased with the arrival of Umar and the Muslims, and with the just rule under the Islamic State.

In the eleventh century, the European Christians in the crusades tortured the Jews and the Muslims. They burned the Jews in their Temples and they burned the Muslims in Masjid Al-Aqsa. The European Christians even tortured the Arab Christians and destroyed their churches. The Jews fled to Andulis (Spain), to receive protection under Islamic rule or a Muslim society. In 1189 A.D., the leader of the Muslim army Salah Aldeen Al-Ayobi expelled the European Christians from Jerusalem, and returned Jerusalem to Islamic rule. The Christian, Jews, and Muslims lived in harmony under Islamic rule.

In 1948, with the help of the western powers, the Jews were able to fulfil the promise of the British foreign minister, Bill Ford. This promise was made in 1917 regarding the Jews' return to the holy land, Palestine. In the time of Moses, when ordered by Allah to return to Palestine, the Israelites disobeyed the will of Allah. Once the Jews again controlled Jerusalem, they expelled and tortured the natives of Palestine from their land, and the area returned to a state of unrest

7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.
9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

In the 1980's, the Israelis started an archaeological project in the area of the Dome of the Rock (Masjid Al-Aqsa). They began excavation claiming that they were searching for the Temple Of King Solomon. They were unable to locate the Temple Of King Solomon, but in the process discovered the tunnel of King Je-hoia-chin. The Israelis claimed that the search was a success only because they discovered the collapsed tunnel of King Je-hoia-chin, which is in no way related to the Temple of King Solomon. This tunnel has no religious significance, it only has historical significance.

Thanks for reading bro, also my special thanks to brothers Kais Al-Kalby and Emad J.

Time to head to work

Salam

noble

Peace dear Bro Ahmed,
Thank you very much for putting all this information together.
It was a treat to read. I actually like history...
I was not aware that Masjid Al Aksah had a historical and archeological origin, ie that it was real.
Together with the Biblical evidence, that makes the points you made before impossible to refute.
Thank you again...
Salam
Take care Bro

unknownuser

Salam and thanks to you BB, may Allah increases you in knowledge and wisdom muscle!!

ayman

Peace all,

It is ironic that similar to old arguments about Hadith that have been thoroughly discredited long ago being presented on other threads, now old arguments about pagan shrines are being rehashed on this thread. The following facts can be seen even by reading between the lines of those old fallacious arguments, if one reads intelligently.

None of the people of the book or anyone from pre-quranic times for that matter knew anything about shrines named "Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa" and "Al-Masjid Al-Haram". Hence, NONE of the quotes in green mention those shrines. In fact, NOT A SINGLE pre-quranic inscription or manuscript mentions those supposed shrines named "Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa" and "Al-Masjid Al-Haram".
The people that some of the posters here copied and pasted from KNOW fact (1) very well. Hence, they resorted to imagining that the Bytel is equivalent to those shrines, because unlike "Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa" and "Al-Masjid Al-Haram", we have archeological evidence of the Bytels. However, those people deliberately hid the fact that Bytel are completely pagan shrines (also called "jinn blocks&quot. Thus, it is not surprising that people of the book frowned on those jinn blocks and never knew anything about them as "they know their own children". From the physical evidence, those Bytel and the pagan rituals associated with them are ALWAYS associated with pagan idols such as Allat and Dushara.
Pagan is as pagan does. The rituals and symbols at the so-called Al-Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca are entirely pagan. They are concerted pagan idol rebirthing celebrations. If anyone here comes upon a bunch of people in Australia or America or anywhere but Mecca spinning seven times around a stone and kissing a black stone that looks like it is coming out from a vagina shaped enclosure, they will surely think that those people are a bunch of crazy pagans. This is the natural instinctive observation. The only reason why most people don't think that people at Mecca are equally crazy pagans and forget their natural instinct is that they subconsiously believe that the stones at Mecca have special powers (since the rituals are exactly the same).

There is no need to dwell on the obvious and beat this dead horse. The majority of people will find all sorts of excuses to justify their pagan shrines and rituals and make them their focal point. Wisdom dictates that the truth from our Lord is the focal point that we should focus on, not Jerusalem, Mecca or any place.

Peace,

Ayman

Layth

Dear Ayman,

While I agree 100% that the rituals of mecca are pagan in both their origins and their designs, I believe you are also at the opposite extreme of the spectrum where everything has become allegoric...The hajj is not physical, nor is the salat etc..

Neither approach in my opinoin is healthy as to come to the non-physical conclusions you are forced to jettison many verses such as those that speak of Abraham inviting people for the hajj (obviously he invited them to a place) and that place was known as Baca, and that Abraham raised the foundations of the Temple at this place with Ismail...The same goes for Salat where to become allegoric the preperations of washing and timings all have to take on strange meanings.

fabian

Allah gives guidance to mankind as to how to follow His worship.
Satan wants to lead mankind astray, so tries and convinces mankind to worship him instead.
Satan has no need to make major changes to the way the worship has to be conducted, just pollutes the heart of the follower with different interpretations, surely this is easier for Satan to do than go through the rebuilding of a whole faith.
Therefore Satan acts as a virus which hijacks the genetic blueprint of a cell to make it do what he/it wants...
This is why there will be similarities in worships, but it is the content that is very important, which means your body is following a ritual, but what is your mind/heart doing?

Peace Bro Noble

Extremely true, and the most apt insight that was needed at this point.

But what I meant was to point to that inner mind and heart, and I was not really going for the smoking gun approach, even though it came out that way, maybe due to the particular audience I was addressing. No, Satan couldn?t make a paper boat, let alone an entire religion meant only for his exclusive worship. He only paints the mind, so that even a paper boat can become a tool of oppression instead of a nice piece of craft. Heads and tails are part of the same coin, and from a casual point of view they are identical. But there is a reason why heads is called heads and tails is called tails, and the difference in crucial when the coin is being tossed. In our religious rituals we want to be on the heads? side. When we notice certain aspects of the tails? side among our midst we tend to ignore it as a partial aberration, and we can do this because we focus on the coin from a distance. But heads is heads and tails is tails, and never the twaine shall meet.

None of the rituals of the Roman Catholic Church were made up. Each one of them is a valid way of reaching God. But do we see them reaching for God? When they looked at the cross they should have seen a living God and His vibrant and infinite Creation. But instead they see His dead body hanging from it. This is clear indication to us that they have crossed over to the tails? side of Christianity. They themselves can never see it that way, but look how clear it is from the outside. They have fallen to idolatry, a dead God on a cross, and they can?t see it! What is idolatry? It is clutching onto forms instead of acknowledging the formless. The Catholics are clutching onto forms passed on to them from the worshippers of Osiris, Tammuz and Orpheus. Not just the physical forms, but the mental forms too. I have no doubt that the rituals themselves are valid ways of reaching God, but the worshippers of Osiris were idolaters, and their mental-makeup is passed on to the Catholics, and this is the essence of their idolatry, not psalm singing on Sunday.

(By the way, by no means do I implicate all Catholics. There are some idiotic debaters who relish the prospect of latching on to ?nouns? and start using Aristotelian logic ?Man is mortal, Fred is a man? ? and so on. I have seen the greatest believers and the greatest of men from the past millennium coming from the Catholics. It only shows us that the guidance of God is available to us even in the most straitened of circumstances. But none of this takes away anything while we are discussing the rule and not the exception.)

Now, when it come to Islam, why do we think that there is no tails to this coin, only a continuous landscape of heads, with the guided ones at the center and the misguided ones at the edges? It can happen to the Christians and the Jews, but not to us? Are we promised immunity anywhere? We know what took place at Kaaba before the coming of the Quran, and if you look carefully you will see that the same has come back, only the very overt stone idols have been taken away. Now we can easily ignore the external paraphernalia if indeed, as you say, the mind and the heart are in the right place. But the mind and heart are absolutely not in the right place, and this is the very reason why we are looking for our way back. Moslems have fallen to idolatry, and this is the tails side of the coin. This is absolutely on the other side. Satan has messed with our interpretation, and not with our rituals. And you think he couldn?t have messed with our interpretation of the Qibla? Masjidul Haram is ?haram? ? sacred and protected. Does the one in Mecca look sacred and protected to you? Could you jostle with all those idolaters and hypocrites on your way to performing Hajj? Honestly? We are not even supposed to visit the Masjids in which the hypocrites and idolaters congregate. Witness from the Quran

?There are those who abuse the masjid by practicing idol worship, dividing the believers, and providing comfort to those who oppose GOD and His messenger. They solemnly swear ?Our intentions are honorable!? GOD bears witness that they are liars. You shall never pray in such a masjid. A masjid that is established on the basis of righteousness from the first day is more worthy of your praying therein. In it, there are people who love to be purified. GOD loves those who purify themselves.? (9107-10

And then we are supposed to push our way through millions of them on route to Masjidul Haram???

Yes, the similarities that I?d drawn to rituals were not right, and I take them back. But my intention was to draw attention to what is in the minds of those who carry out those rituals, and I did not mean to disparage the rituals themselves. I admire the way you come to the essence of the argument so quickly, and I respect that. Otherwise there?s a lot of ego parading for discussion here, don?t you think?

Take care,

Fabian

unknownuser

Hello Public

There is some translation provided by Fabian regarding the following two verses

(107)

(10
]

The translation provided was

?There are those who abuse the masjid by practicing idol worship, dividing the believers, and providing comfort to those who oppose GOD and His messenger. They solemnly swear ?Our intentions are honorable!? GOD bears witness that they are liars. You shall never pray in such a masjid. A masjid that is established on the basis of righteousness from the first day is more worthy of your praying therein. In it, there are people who love to be purified. GOD loves those who purify themselves.? (9107-10

What I would like to say that there is nothing in the verse 9107 that means Idol worship underlined above

the verse only say as follow

YUSUFALI And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; But Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars.

PICKTHAL And as for those who chose a place of worship out of opposition and disbelief, and in order to cause dissent among the believers, and as an outpost for those who warred against Allah and His messenger aforetime, they will surely swear We purposed naught save good. Allah beareth witness that they verily are liars.

SHAKIR And those who built a masjid to cause harm and for unbelief and to cause disunion among the believers and an ambush to him who made war against Allah and His Messenger before; and they will certainly swear We did not desire aught but good; and Allah bears witness that they are most surely liars.

the mistake in the translation Fabian brought is obvious, they wrongly translated the word "Kufr" as "Shrik", very clear, and Kufr only means "Rejection, Opposition, etc" and in no way means idol worshipping

Cheers

Layth

Dear Ahmed,

When you say that the prophet mohammed jorneyed to jerusalem and that he led the salat for all the prophets (at the not yet constructed aqsa mosque), do you not care that you are clealry speaking without knowledge about God and His prophets?

This is one of the reasons why I do not entertain the satanic hadiths or even their propmotion as history...You are saying that the prophets were all resurected for the sole purpose of standing in salat behind prophet mohammed...You speak against what God has told us since his prophets are all with Him and none have been reserected on earth nor can the dead be made to hear the living!

Then, you go on to continue the tale that the Aqsa mosue (that was built in the late 1700's) has in-fact been around since the time of Abraham and was kept in custody of the Palestinains and that the prophets all used to pilgrim to Mecca etc.

Not only was there no aqsa mosque errected at the time, but even your choice for that location is misguided since you are saying that mecca to jerusalem is the furthest temple ignoring that God has sent messengers to communities all over the earth and that a temple built in africa or america would be phsyically farther to your temple of mecca.

Add to that the fact that we already know what temple is farther as it was located outside this universe where the prophet was shown signs from God.

Please note, the danger with your approach, is that you can say whatever you want (Kaaba was in Baghdad) and then just quote some hadiths or quotes from the talmud and bingo, it is done!

"What is wrong with you, how do you judge? Or do you have another book which you study? In it, you can find what you wish?" (6836-3

Our evidence should be tangible and not just heresay.

unknownuser

Dear Ahmed,

Salam Dear Brother

When you say that the prophet mohammed jorneyed to jerusalem and that he led the salat for all the prophets (at the not yet constructed aqsa mosque), do you not care that you are clealry speaking without knowledge about God and His prophets?

Actually, this is not what I said it was what others said, I agree with it or I should say that there is nothing that contradict it. From the moment the miracle of Israa started I can expect anything to happen during that time, however what was said was not really about Allah but was about the prophet and was said by himself and transferred to us over the years and years as mere history records or at least this is how I consider it.

This is one of the reasons why I do not entertain the satanic hadiths or even their propmotion as history...You are saying that the prophets were all resurected for the sole purpose of standing in salat behind prophet mohammed...

Actually I don't look at this at all as the main miracle, it may be corruption to the hadith and sure it is plausible however the way I see the miracle is only the Israa from Al Masjid Al Haram to Al Masjid Al Aqsa , and both must be a fair distance apart for the miracle of Israa to be a miracle and when proven to the people then they should also believe the prophet in what he should say regarding the miracle of Miraj bebcause there was no way for him to prove the Miraj without proving the Israa

What I?m trying to say is this, I look at it in a simple manner not a complicated manner, I really careless if the prophet lead prayer with other prophets for real or metaphorically or even never happened at all, I know for sure that the journey from the two mosques happened because this is what the Quran told us exacly

You speak against what God has told us since his prophets are all with Him and none have been reserected on earth nor can the dead be made to hear the living!

Well, I have to accept your point that this prayer may not happened and I have no problem with that, I only transferred what others said honestly and I thanked them at the end, that article was only sharing info, I only use the Quran as concrete evidence that I will die for.

Then, you go on to continue the tale that the Aqsa mosue (that was built in the late 1700's) has in-fact been around since the time of Abraham and was kept in custody of the Palestinains and that the prophets all used to pilgrim to Mecca etc.

I didn?t say that but I do believe in that history records which is confirmed by the hadith records and the bible

Not only was there no aqsa mosque errected at the time, but even your choice for that location is misguided since you are saying that mecca to jerusalem is the furthest temple ignoring that God has sent messengers to communities all over the earth and that a temple built in africa or america would be phsyically farther to your temple of mecca.

That is if we translate the name of Al Aqsa Mosque literally however it may meant to Abraham at the time that way due to the hardship of travelling long distances then, for me the meaning of both mosque names has no value whatsoever, for me both Al Masjid Al Haram and Al Masjid Al Aqsa are names and should not be translated

Add to that the fact that we already know what temple is farther as it was located outside this universe where the prophet was shown signs from God.

Well this is really gettin relative, and I can?t accept that argument because as far as I believe both mosques mentioned in the Quran are on earth, I may accept the name ?Al Bayt Al Mamoor? as a name for another Bayt to Allah in the universe but again the matter has no importance to me

Please note, the danger with your approach, is that you can say whatever you want (Kaaba was in Baghdad) and then just quote some hadiths or quotes from the talmud and bingo, it is done!

Of course I know that it is not bingo, I urge others to put the pieces together and find the truth for themselves, let?s say it this way, we have two strong yet contradicting proposals, it is them who need to weight and evaluate the evidences presented then make up their decision, my decision is already made up a while back, and honest to Allah my decision is only based on logic and has no emotional motivation behind it, I looked at the evidences presented by you and Ayman for very long time and kept myself from replying until I confirmed a few things, I?m a very practical man btw

"What is wrong with you, how do you judge? Or do you have another book which you study? In it, you can find what you wish?" (6836-3

Our evidence should be tangible and not just heresay.

Exactly bro, that is why I?m happy to do many things, for example

I already dropped the corrupt part of hadith regarding 50 salat going to 5 after a great deal of bargaining, just I take the 5 were ordered at once
Happy to drop that part about the prayer lead by the prophet that maybe corrupt, however to have the Israa made of that spot means it has great importance to Allah, as well to have the prophet reaching that spot from a very far distance in no time means that Al Masjid Al Haram must be in another spot that is very far from the spot on that rock under the doom

And as they come up, I have no problem, I always try to simplify things for myself and in no way I?m going to make it complicated, I found though that many people fell to that trap which is making it harder for themselves, the jews did that as far as I believe and I think the christians did the same, I guess many muslims regatrdless of sect are doing the exact same, at the end of the day these details we are discussing with the exception of any quran verse we have dicussed have no importance to me other than mere history records that I will accept if they don?t contradict the Quran

Also mate, just one point that you mentioned in an earlier comment about the word ?Fi?, yes I said something first and I said another second, this is because what was stated in both cases do not contradict the Quran, in fact it was supported by the Quran as shown from the examples of the word ?Fi? that it can mean the entity as a whole and not inside it, therefore I accept both meanings, i.e.

Bayt Allah has many signs, one of it is Maqam Ibrahim, i.e. the whole bayt is a sign that Ibrahim built it
Bayt Allah has many signs, one of it is Maqam Ibrahim inside it,

The problem bro, what is Maqam Ibrahim?, is it really his foot prints or something else?, I myself think that it is something else and not his foot prints, however at the end of the day I really careless what it is because Allah did not say what it is, nor I care to look for it as an evidence because there are so many other clear and logical evidences that will make me totally careless about what is Maqam Ibrahim

And finally bro regarding the hearsay, I found many here also say a lot of hearsay, I guess it is now a matter of which hearsay make more sense than another

Salam bro

noble

Peace Brothers
After all these energetic exchanges...
Again thank you Ahmed for your efforts...
May I add the following - My own contention that Masjid Al Aqsa was not on earth was based on the hadith that Muhammed (pbuh) led a prayer for other Prophets (this could not have happened on earth according to what is written in Quran about Death, however Jesus was reported to raise the dead, so?)
Anyways, now that I am happy to accept that Masjid Al Aqsa was and is in Jerusalem, the fact for the idol whorship is again as always Satan perverting the faith, so for me no contradiction, and same with Macca...

Thank you Fabian for your kind response...

Finally, let me stir this a bit further
A long time ago I found in my father's repository of books, a book written by Imam Shafi'i himself, with advice to believers on the proper ways to follow the faith.
There were some interesting advice on eating which some on macrobiotic diets will relate to (such as not mixing eating eggs with meat...)
Another peculiar advice also on healing, but also on purification from the devil is as follows - I quote from memory - "write on a piece of thin paper ayat AlQursi, and the last three surats of Quran, using soluble ink, take a glass full of pure water, put the paper that was written in the water and allow to dissolve fully, say bismillah and drink the water..."
This was advice in a book written by one of the foremost figure in the preservation of the Faith of Islam... By the way I followed that advice, at a time when I was not praying yet...
From a saudi I met in a mosque, when he travelled to Mecca, he brought me a few pages written with the saliva of imams from Macca, and he advised me do the same as Imam Shafi'i, so it can heal me...
So I ask you, honestly, what is this? Is it allowed?
Salam
brickwall

Layth

Dear Noble,

Anyways, now that I am happy to accept that Masjid Al Aqsa was and is in Jerusalem, the fact for the idol whorship is again as always Satan perverting the faith, so for me no contradiction, and same with Macca...

I must have missed this discussion. How did the masjid alaqsa mentioned in 171 become on earth?

noble

Dear Bro Layth
No, my argument to justify that Al Masjid Al Aqsa was not on earth seems to have been flawed (because Allah can raise the dead, and that was done on earth by Jesus, and Al Masjid Al Aqsa (as Bytel) in Jerusalem could have been refurbished by Allah just for the occasion)...
Anyways I am still unsure to be honest with you...
However what Ahmed put together makes a plausible strory, with Abraham, Ismael and Isaac and what have you...
Allah knows best
PS Of course plausible does not mean factual or true...

unknownuser

Dear Bro Layth
No, my argument to justify that Al Masjid Al Aqsa was not on earth seems to have been flawed (because Allah can raise the dead, and that was done on earth by Jesus, and Al Masjid Al Aqsa (as Bytel) in Jerusalem could have been refurbished by Allah just for the occasion)...
Anyways I am still unsure to be honest with you...
However what Ahmed put together makes a plausible strory, with Abraham, Ismael and Isaac and what have you...
Allah knows best
PS Of course plausible does not mean factual or true...

you know bro what I found impossible?, simply that the whole world including the jews, the christians and the muslims agreed to conspire together, and every group adjusted their books and history records perefectly to make a complete story of deception, and who is deceived?, themselves, pretty funny indeed

Salam bro